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Canada13407 Posts
After watching the MLG finals I've been debating whether or not putting a pylon off creep near the Zerg extractor in their main is worth it or not.
I don't necessarily mean to let it finish, but if they went pool/gas first before hatch for example, then the Zerg could do a roach bust but only if they get more than 100 gas or keep a drone on gas. If my probe is scouting and makes it as far as the extractor but is about to die and the Zerg has let us say 80 or 90 gas it might be worth it to put a pylon down and cancel it once you see if they pull drones. Most maps allow you to put a pylon down behind the creep spread and near the extractor right?
The more I think about it the worse it seems but idk, it opens up the option of mindgames but it means that if drones are removed then the roach all in can be much less likely and it gives you that little bit of extra scouting right?
Just a random thought that just popped in and I would like some feedback if possible 
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I've been fooling around with hero's opening as of late, but I'm glad to see someone took the time to figure out the specific build order/timings and explain it in a nice organized manner. I'll check out the replays and add this style to my own.
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Oh very cool. I was trying to do the same thing, but didn't really have a good refinement. Thanks for writing this thing up Alej 
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Awe yeah - I wanted this build!!
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Man are camera hotkeys really that important?
I'm using 1-3 for army, ° for prism, 4 robo/stargate and 5 nexus and I always felt really good about that.
Could you please tell me which camera hotkeys you use and the situation when to use them?
ps: I love that style, PvZ really seems promising for a Protoss who plays that sneaky tactic and still stays safe! Thank you for writing that guide 
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Thanks for all the insights and detailed description for each scenario. I'll definitely be trying this in ladder - very excited.
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On November 23 2011 02:12 Binabik wrote:Man are camera hotkeys really that important? I'm using 1-3 for army, ° for prism, 4 robo/stargate and 5 nexus and I always felt really good about that. Could you please tell me which camera hotkeys you use and the situation when to use them? ps: I love that style, PvZ really seems promising for a Protoss who plays that sneaky tactic and still stays safe! Thank you for writing that guide
I can only speak for myself but i use my camera keys F1-F2-F3 for my bases and then I bind my proxy pylon or if I'm sitting at home just my front to Q. The camera keys just let you move around the map really efficiently. Like If i were doing WP harass I'd set the general area my WP is and I'm fighting to Q, that way I can skip between my main-natural, to continue to macro or defend a counter, and managing my attack with 1 key press. In the heat of the moment at least imho 1 key press is much >than 2 which you need to snap position on a control group. (plus Q is so convenient, I've been thinking about adding my natural to R instead of F2 but idn)
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Fantastic job, anyone else feel like Protoss players make the best guides in TL?
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Alej, you are actually a Hero yourself... these guides are amazing!
And a q for everyone: is FFE the only possible opening in PvZ??? I haven't seen a pro not do it in the longest time (outside of NoNy) and am a little sad because of it. Any thoughts...
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On November 23 2011 03:13 chambertin wrote:
Alej, you are actually a Hero yourself... these guides are amazing!
And a q for everyone: is FFE the only possible opening in PvZ??? I haven't seen a pro not do it in the longest time (outside of NoNy) and am a little sad because of it. Any thoughts...
I've seen 1 gate Stargate expo, 1 gate expand and saw some one go DT expo.
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On November 23 2011 03:13 chambertin wrote:
Alej, you are actually a Hero yourself... these guides are amazing!
And a q for everyone: is FFE the only possible opening in PvZ??? I haven't seen a pro not do it in the longest time (outside of NoNy) and am a little sad because of it. Any thoughts...
Yes, Alej is a hero. Speaking of heroes, I saw LiquidHero use 2g 1star expo on Shattered T against Ret, but like 3g expo, you've got to kill a decent amount of zerg stuff. I recommend just practicing the FFE. That's what I'm in the process of doing, and yes, I lose more often because success with it is highly dependent on scouting and reacting properly. I'm only in Plat but even at this low level the zergs have gotten very good at climbing ahead of a toss that goes for anything slower than a 1 or 2 gate expo.
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Looks like I know what too expect the next few weeks in zvp. Very well thought out and nice write up.
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Thanks everyone for all the positive feedback so far. It's not as fleshed out as I'd like it to be, simply because I wouldn't want to tell you to do something because I do it, or I saw some one do it once. No one knows when exactly you should go for DT rather than immortal rather than colossus rather than unit composition X with Y gateways at Z minutes and Alpha seconds. I wanted to just give you a general picture and give you options to explore in the mid game. Amateurs discuss strategy; professionals discuss logistics amirite?
I will say that a colossus transition into 3 base play is probably the safest way to follow up as long as you are watching for muta switches. I am a fan of following up the aggression with additional aggression in the form of WP DT. I understand that many will see that as a gimmicky way to follow up, but I wholeheartedly believe that even if the zerg has prepared for it (and it does come VERY early if you plan it out and get the council a bit earlier and you can afford them pretty easily gas-wise), you can still force SOMETHING to happen and get his units, drones, detectors tied up in one location while you snipe a hatchery elsewhere. I know I have been in the death-ball mentality for a long time, but using this style has made me realize something: zergs aren't quite used to dealing with protoss drops yet! A lot of times even the best zergs will send the wrong amount or the wrong type of army to clean up a WP, and HerO will snipe the 3rd AND THE NAT with a combination of blink stalkers, DTs, proxy pylons, and warp prisms with zealot dumps SIMULTANEOUSLY.
There is a lot of unexplored territory here; I know when I was first getting used to the style and watching HerO play it out, I kept thinking to myself: I did not KNOW that you could do that! Hopefully with this thread and the great protoss minds that have assembled here, we can continue to figure this shit out!
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Hey Alejandrisha, what's you opinion no going FFE into mass air PvZ? I've seen WhiteRa, HongUn and ZenexYong all go FFE into 2 stargates, pump about 4 VRs, get phoenixes into eventually Carriers+Momaship and mass air upgrade. It seems pretty much unbeatable late game and I've seldom seen them lose once they get 2 Carriers out. Have you ever messed around with it?
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On November 23 2011 07:28 Mikelius wrote:
Hey Alejandrisha, what's you opinion no going FFE into mass air PvZ? I've seen WhiteRa, HongUn and ZenexYong all go FFE into 2 stargates, pump about 4 VRs, get phoenixes into eventually Carriers+Momaship and mass air upgrade. It seems pretty much unbeatable late game and I've seldom seen them lose once they get 2 Carriers out. Have you ever messed around with it?
It's possible. It's pretty easy to get going on a map where the 3rd is really easy to secure. The endgame composition of carrier/vr + mothership........ I don't think zerg has units that can bring that down so it's just a matter of getting there in time. I haven't really done it much myself, though I have done double stargate plays off of an FFE. I like double stargate VR much more than single star Void because I feel like single star Void almost never does any damage unless you get reeeeeally lucky and it's pretty easy for the zerg to spam drones against 1star.
I think I've seen sase do that exact thing on Tal'darim altar once on his stream, and I've seen white-ra do it as well, obviously on shakuras. That's neither here nor there though :D
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On November 22 2011 18:45 Xenorawks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 15:04 bankai wrote:
Ok just finished reading and loving it.
2 questions:
1) "Grind out the above builds until you reach the point where you have warped in 8 zealots, a robotics and a twilight council until you are comfortable with this style." So do you always get 8 zealots blindly apart from 2-base roach?
2) Silly question actually - but when is the 'normal' zerg 3rd base taken (e.g. in 3-base roach builds) so I can distinguish if im facing 2-base play or not.
3) Would using a 2zealot scout instead of 2probes as u suggest put this build behind? Is it going to miss some sorta timing by putting the 2nd/3rd/4th GW a little later? Just feel that 2zealot scout is more reliable cos my probes mite die too quickly!
4) When facing 2-base roach or 3-base roach, how do u know when to take the third base?
Thanks - very excited to try this out!
1. By attacking before/at 8 minutes, you don't really expect roaches yet. Only lings and maybe spines. So yes zealots only since they kill lings in 2 hits with +1 and just deals ridiculous amount of damage to spine/hatch. Stalkers are expensive and sentries needless to say, can't kill a hatch till the next MLG in 2012. 2. Generally, 5-5.30 minutes. Some zergs take before the 5th minute, some take later at the 6th. Depends on what they have in mind. 3. Reason why you will want to make sentries from your gateways is because they cost less minerals and help defend against sudden run-by or all-in. You can use your initial zealot to scout/clear watch tower though if you don't expect pressure, nothing wrong with that. I prefer to get sentry/stalker after my first zealot to prevent any scouting overlord. If I were to do the 2 zealot scout, I rather do the FFE into 2 gate zealot pressure, but not with this build. 4. Mass roach usually won't kill you if you have sentries and immortals/blink stalkers. It's very hard to break forcefields + cannons. By the way, if you have excess minerals but you don't know whether zerg has an army large enough to kill you, just expand. If he tries to attack your 3rd and you think you can't defend it, just cancel it. Taking an expo only brings low risk but has high reward, don't hesitate to throw down that nexus!
Thx for this advice, sounds very solid.
Was just watching the replay on Taldarim Altar...was wondering, IF they go 2-base (which you know by confirming no 3rd base at the latest 6:30min), then how do you scout their tech and the type of 2-base build? You didnt see anything in their base - were u just relying on scoutning the front with your zealot pressure?
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On November 23 2011 08:22 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 18:45 Xenorawks wrote:On November 22 2011 15:04 bankai wrote:
Ok just finished reading and loving it.
2 questions:
1) "Grind out the above builds until you reach the point where you have warped in 8 zealots, a robotics and a twilight council until you are comfortable with this style." So do you always get 8 zealots blindly apart from 2-base roach?
2) Silly question actually - but when is the 'normal' zerg 3rd base taken (e.g. in 3-base roach builds) so I can distinguish if im facing 2-base play or not.
3) Would using a 2zealot scout instead of 2probes as u suggest put this build behind? Is it going to miss some sorta timing by putting the 2nd/3rd/4th GW a little later? Just feel that 2zealot scout is more reliable cos my probes mite die too quickly!
4) When facing 2-base roach or 3-base roach, how do u know when to take the third base?
Thanks - very excited to try this out!
1. By attacking before/at 8 minutes, you don't really expect roaches yet. Only lings and maybe spines. So yes zealots only since they kill lings in 2 hits with +1 and just deals ridiculous amount of damage to spine/hatch. Stalkers are expensive and sentries needless to say, can't kill a hatch till the next MLG in 2012. 2. Generally, 5-5.30 minutes. Some zergs take before the 5th minute, some take later at the 6th. Depends on what they have in mind. 3. Reason why you will want to make sentries from your gateways is because they cost less minerals and help defend against sudden run-by or all-in. You can use your initial zealot to scout/clear watch tower though if you don't expect pressure, nothing wrong with that. I prefer to get sentry/stalker after my first zealot to prevent any scouting overlord. If I were to do the 2 zealot scout, I rather do the FFE into 2 gate zealot pressure, but not with this build. 4. Mass roach usually won't kill you if you have sentries and immortals/blink stalkers. It's very hard to break forcefields + cannons. By the way, if you have excess minerals but you don't know whether zerg has an army large enough to kill you, just expand. If he tries to attack your 3rd and you think you can't defend it, just cancel it. Taking an expo only brings low risk but has high reward, don't hesitate to throw down that nexus! Thx for this advice, sounds very solid. Was just watching the replay on Taldarim Altar...was wondering, IF they go 2-base (which you know by confirming no 3rd base at the latest 6:30min), then how do you scout their tech and the type of 2-base build? You didnt see anything in their base - were u just relying on scoutning the front with your zealot pressure?
Don't do what I did that game haha.
If he was doing a 2 base whatever, I'd probably die immediately. It's hard to fit in the first zealot after your core starts because you have a lot of things to spend minerals on, but the more I think about it, the more necessary that zealot seems to be for scouting. Also, you should scout with the damn probe you make the proxy pylon with. I always seem to forget to do that for some reason O_O
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I this great! my pvz woahs are over<3
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On November 23 2011 08:25 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 08:22 bankai wrote:On November 22 2011 18:45 Xenorawks wrote:On November 22 2011 15:04 bankai wrote:
Ok just finished reading and loving it.
2 questions:
1) "Grind out the above builds until you reach the point where you have warped in 8 zealots, a robotics and a twilight council until you are comfortable with this style." So do you always get 8 zealots blindly apart from 2-base roach?
2) Silly question actually - but when is the 'normal' zerg 3rd base taken (e.g. in 3-base roach builds) so I can distinguish if im facing 2-base play or not.
3) Would using a 2zealot scout instead of 2probes as u suggest put this build behind? Is it going to miss some sorta timing by putting the 2nd/3rd/4th GW a little later? Just feel that 2zealot scout is more reliable cos my probes mite die too quickly!
4) When facing 2-base roach or 3-base roach, how do u know when to take the third base?
Thanks - very excited to try this out!
1. By attacking before/at 8 minutes, you don't really expect roaches yet. Only lings and maybe spines. So yes zealots only since they kill lings in 2 hits with +1 and just deals ridiculous amount of damage to spine/hatch. Stalkers are expensive and sentries needless to say, can't kill a hatch till the next MLG in 2012. 2. Generally, 5-5.30 minutes. Some zergs take before the 5th minute, some take later at the 6th. Depends on what they have in mind. 3. Reason why you will want to make sentries from your gateways is because they cost less minerals and help defend against sudden run-by or all-in. You can use your initial zealot to scout/clear watch tower though if you don't expect pressure, nothing wrong with that. I prefer to get sentry/stalker after my first zealot to prevent any scouting overlord. If I were to do the 2 zealot scout, I rather do the FFE into 2 gate zealot pressure, but not with this build. 4. Mass roach usually won't kill you if you have sentries and immortals/blink stalkers. It's very hard to break forcefields + cannons. By the way, if you have excess minerals but you don't know whether zerg has an army large enough to kill you, just expand. If he tries to attack your 3rd and you think you can't defend it, just cancel it. Taking an expo only brings low risk but has high reward, don't hesitate to throw down that nexus! Thx for this advice, sounds very solid. Was just watching the replay on Taldarim Altar...was wondering, IF they go 2-base (which you know by confirming no 3rd base at the latest 6:30min), then how do you scout their tech and the type of 2-base build? You didnt see anything in their base - were u just relying on scoutning the front with your zealot pressure? Don't do what I did that game haha. If he was doing a 2 base whatever, I'd probably die immediately. It's hard to fit in the first zealot after your core starts because you have a lot of things to spend minerals on, but the more I think about it, the more necessary that zealot seems to be for scouting. Also, you should scout with the damn probe you make the proxy pylon with. I always seem to forget to do that for some reason O_O
well doesnt matter if u didnt scout that game, u still smashed him
the problem i have with probe scouting a 2-base attack is they dont normally survive long enough to get into the base...leaving only scouting the front units possible. Thats why I thought the 1zealot/1probe scout would be more reliable (but even then zerg seem to expect this and prepare just enough lings to stop that and keep you in the dark).
So I take it that to get that Core straight after the 1st GW, you HAVE to build sentries first to free up minerals? In other words, is it possible to edit your opener a little to start with 2zealots/2sentries from the 1st GW to allow for better scouting, and still achieve the timings u want in this build (e.g. getting 2nd/3rd/4th GW down on 36supply)?
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On November 23 2011 08:50 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 08:25 Alejandrisha wrote:On November 23 2011 08:22 bankai wrote:On November 22 2011 18:45 Xenorawks wrote:On November 22 2011 15:04 bankai wrote:
Ok just finished reading and loving it.
2 questions:
1) "Grind out the above builds until you reach the point where you have warped in 8 zealots, a robotics and a twilight council until you are comfortable with this style." So do you always get 8 zealots blindly apart from 2-base roach?
2) Silly question actually - but when is the 'normal' zerg 3rd base taken (e.g. in 3-base roach builds) so I can distinguish if im facing 2-base play or not.
3) Would using a 2zealot scout instead of 2probes as u suggest put this build behind? Is it going to miss some sorta timing by putting the 2nd/3rd/4th GW a little later? Just feel that 2zealot scout is more reliable cos my probes mite die too quickly!
4) When facing 2-base roach or 3-base roach, how do u know when to take the third base?
Thanks - very excited to try this out!
1. By attacking before/at 8 minutes, you don't really expect roaches yet. Only lings and maybe spines. So yes zealots only since they kill lings in 2 hits with +1 and just deals ridiculous amount of damage to spine/hatch. Stalkers are expensive and sentries needless to say, can't kill a hatch till the next MLG in 2012. 2. Generally, 5-5.30 minutes. Some zergs take before the 5th minute, some take later at the 6th. Depends on what they have in mind. 3. Reason why you will want to make sentries from your gateways is because they cost less minerals and help defend against sudden run-by or all-in. You can use your initial zealot to scout/clear watch tower though if you don't expect pressure, nothing wrong with that. I prefer to get sentry/stalker after my first zealot to prevent any scouting overlord. If I were to do the 2 zealot scout, I rather do the FFE into 2 gate zealot pressure, but not with this build. 4. Mass roach usually won't kill you if you have sentries and immortals/blink stalkers. It's very hard to break forcefields + cannons. By the way, if you have excess minerals but you don't know whether zerg has an army large enough to kill you, just expand. If he tries to attack your 3rd and you think you can't defend it, just cancel it. Taking an expo only brings low risk but has high reward, don't hesitate to throw down that nexus! Thx for this advice, sounds very solid. Was just watching the replay on Taldarim Altar...was wondering, IF they go 2-base (which you know by confirming no 3rd base at the latest 6:30min), then how do you scout their tech and the type of 2-base build? You didnt see anything in their base - were u just relying on scoutning the front with your zealot pressure? Don't do what I did that game haha. If he was doing a 2 base whatever, I'd probably die immediately. It's hard to fit in the first zealot after your core starts because you have a lot of things to spend minerals on, but the more I think about it, the more necessary that zealot seems to be for scouting. Also, you should scout with the damn probe you make the proxy pylon with. I always seem to forget to do that for some reason O_O well doesnt matter if u didnt scout that game, u still smashed him the problem i have with probe scouting a 2-base attack is they dont normally survive long enough to get into the base...leaving only scouting the front units possible. Thats why I thought the 1zealot/1probe scout would be more reliable (but even then zerg seem to expect this and prepare just enough lings to stop that and keep you in the dark). So I take it that to get that Core straight after the 1st GW, you HAVE to build sentries first to free up minerals? In other words, is it possible to edit your opener a little to start with 2zealots/2sentries from the 1st GW to allow for better scouting, and still achieve the timings u want in this build (e.g. getting 2nd/3rd/4th GW down on 36supply)?
I could probably squeeze in a 2nd zealot but it would slow down the wg push by a tad or it would skimp on probes a little bit. But if it makes the build better, it's something that has to be done. I'm not quite sure what is the best combination of units to get from the 1st gw. I have done 2 zealots which helps when you clear the tower, but I don't think there is any sense in bringing any amount of sentries along with the zealots. I will play my next bunch of pvz's doing this, getting 2 zealots every time and I'll see how I do in games where the Z was going 2 base.. this might take a little bit of time though. I'll certainly update the OP asap with anything, including info from other players who have actually tried doing the different variations against 2 and 3 base play
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EPT
