EPTI know that this won't work at high skill levels, but this is what I do next: After 2 warp-ins of zealots, the Zerg then usually has quite a number of roaches pounding my zealots just before I kill the hatch. Therefore, I warp in some 4 stalkers to support the zealots. If I see that he is overpowering me, I retaliate and return home with blink almost done, and start +2 research. I immediately add 4 more gates then, and prepare for a 8 gate blink stalker/zealot with +2 all-in. Strangely enough, that transition has been working quite well for me. But after reading this guide I will probably rather start using the recommended transitions, such as a quick 3rd and robo tech etc.
[G] PvZ HerOic FFE - Page 11
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
I know that this won't work at high skill levels, but this is what I do next: After 2 warp-ins of zealots, the Zerg then usually has quite a number of roaches pounding my zealots just before I kill the hatch. Therefore, I warp in some 4 stalkers to support the zealots. If I see that he is overpowering me, I retaliate and return home with blink almost done, and start +2 research. I immediately add 4 more gates then, and prepare for a 8 gate blink stalker/zealot with +2 all-in. Strangely enough, that transition has been working quite well for me. But after reading this guide I will probably rather start using the recommended transitions, such as a quick 3rd and robo tech etc. | ||
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
9 py (3 cb on nexus) 14 forge (@100% start +1 weapons) 17 nex 17 gate 17 pylon 17 cannon 18 probe; cb nexus once 19 gas 20 2nd gas 21 core **3 probes on 1st gas, 2 on the 2nd gas; alternatively, 3 on both and pull one from each when +1 starts** maintain probes on both nexuses, but don't CB them ~23 zealot (1 CB) ~28 2nd zealot and WG (1 CB zeal; 3 CB WG) ~33 pylon ~34 stalker ~40 3 gates from here, add an in base pylon then your proxy pylon. the 2z1s will help you secure a proxy pylon if you don't have a probe hidden already. next, make sure 3 probes on each of your main gases. now add a 3rd gas and a twilight council ~48 1st zealot warpin [4] **add 4th gas in between 1st and 2nd cycle** ~60 2nd zealot warpin[4] (probe production is maintained through these cycles!! I recommend cb'ing the gates in between rounds. you should have 3-4 available. if you take the 3rd down, save what zealots you can. you can micro vs lings/slow roaches to some extent. get some more bang for your buck out of those guys. if he holds it with roaches, that's not too bad because he must have delayed his lair more than he would have liked to get roches out. if he held it with lings, O_O when your WGs come up again get a round of sentries. Your TC will be finishing around now. Use your banked gas to start blink and +2. add 2-3 additional gates. i like to get a robo as well for an obs in case they have blink when you move out. You'll want to CB +2 heavily. It's not entirely necessary to cb blink (+2 is 190s vs the 150s of blink) and you'll want to bank some cb for the push. **Cut probes at about 50-52. this means: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ? on each mineral line, 12 on gas total (+1 for mr. proxy probe) blink and +2 will finish between 11:00 and 11:30. you'll have about 16 stalkers, 4-5 sentries and whatever zealots you managed to salvage from your +1 4g push, and an obs if you opted for one. now go kill! skeleton http://drop.sc/158976 | ||
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Krigs
Norway9 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
that is skeleton will add to op. this transition does not lose ^^ | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 13 2012 13:08 Alejandrisha wrote: vs the 150s of blink Nitpick: Blink is 140s according to http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Blink. This transition looks good, and is reccomended for those who like the Adonminus build, but are more comfortable with FFE. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
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Magnetz
9 Posts
On March 01 2012 15:52 bankai wrote: Has anyone been finding that the zealot pressure at 8:30ish is feeling less and less effective?? It seems zergs are much more prepared now that they build just enough roaches/spines to counter this, then they drone like crazy on 3-base and deny my thrid with lots of roaches Any ideas on some different ways to pressure with this opener? I'm also finding it very difficult to make this build work. I'm only Diamond, but zergs are scouting and making it very difficult to secure a proxy pylon. Again, if you are successful or not in killing the third, Zerg seem to drop a 3rd/4th (or not) and move to mass roach to deny my third. It seems too cheap for Zerg to counter this, and then they know you're not doing anything threatening for a while. I might have to try a DT followup as suggested. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:05 CaptainHaz wrote: So is it just commit to a blink allin after the pressure with no hope of a macro followup? that is correct ^.^ I'm sure you could just as easily cut out 1 or 2 gates and expand behind it, but if he defends his 3rd with roaches and you take a third, you know he is just going to roach spam to 200/200 immediately. On some maps you can deal with this, obviously, but on others it will be tough. Your banked gas will seem like a lot once you begin your transition, but your low gas income up until that point will see you strapped for gas to spend on sentries--who haven't had the luxury of gaining energy for very long--and tech, which will be reasonably developed relative to the game state in which you find yourself--but it is developed enough to hold a 3rd? I am not so sure; in most cases, I find the best follow-up to be a timing attack shortly after the zealot pressure that hits before he is able to reap the benefits of his newly established economy, or, if he reverts to roach spam despite your being on 2 bases, capitalize off of his slow-to-come or even non-existent post-roach lair tech. EDIT: Of course, if you have your own transitions that include a 3rd, do feel free to post some replays as I'd love to see what people are working with as transitions as always. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 15 2012 08:24 Magnetz wrote: I'm also finding it very difficult to make this build work. I'm only Diamond, but zergs are scouting and making it very difficult to secure a proxy pylon. Again, if you are successful or not in killing the third, Zerg seem to drop a 3rd/4th (or not) and move to mass roach to deny my third. It seems too cheap for Zerg to counter this, and then they know you're not doing anything threatening for a while. I might have to try a DT followup as suggested. have you tried it using the rallied stalker after 2 cb'd zealots? I've never had a pylon denied using 2z1s! I consider this zealot pressure, even if it doesn't kill the 3rd for you, to be a very strong opening. If you're not forcing additional units before lair tech and are not going SG to force spores and even a panic hydra den, you are pretty much letting the zerg drone spam in peace which--in the general frame of RTS should not be a big deal if you are playing for the macro game--is a little unsettling because of the larva inject mechanic and thus zerg's ability to fully saturate a 3rd as you are fully saturating your natural. if your pressure is ineffectual, and especially if it is hitting at 8:30 (and therefore might not be forcing units before lair, which is the ultimate goal of this pressure), you might need to put in some work vs the cpu to get those timings down. I was actually going nexus-pylon-cannon-gateway rather than nexus-gateway-pylon-cannon or nexus-gateway-cannon-pylon for smaller ground distances for the longest time in doing this, not realizing that this slowed my push down by about 20 seconds without really netting me any economic gain. keep working at it! | ||
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AlphaDotCom
United States43 Posts
On April 16 2012 04:37 Alejandrisha wrote: have you tried it using the rallied stalker after 2 cb'd zealots? I've never had a pylon denied using 2z1s! I consider this zealot pressure, even if it doesn't kill the 3rd for you, to be a very strong opening. If you're not forcing additional units before lair tech and are not going SG to force spores and even a panic hydra den, you are pretty much letting the zerg drone spam in peace which--in the general frame of RTS should not be a big deal if you are playing for the macro game--is a little unsettling because of the larva inject mechanic and thus zerg's ability to fully saturate a 3rd as you are fully saturating your natural. if your pressure is ineffectual, and especially if it is hitting at 8:30 (and therefore might not be forcing units before lair, which is the ultimate goal of this pressure), you might need to put in some work vs the cpu to get those timings down. I was actually going nexus-pylon-cannon-gateway rather than nexus-gateway-pylon-cannon or nexus-gateway-cannon-pylon for smaller ground distances for the longest time in doing this, not realizing that this slowed my push down by about 20 seconds without really netting me any economic gain. keep working at it! Have you considered doing a gate expand into this like in the adonminus guide you hit with first warpin around 7 minutes which is at least 30 seconds faster than forge which I think makes a big difference in the damage you do | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 16 2012 04:44 AlphaDotCom wrote: Have you considered doing a gate expand into this like in the adonminus guide you hit with first warpin around 7 minutes which is at least 30 seconds faster than forge which I think makes a big difference in the damage you do haven't read that but will check it out wen't through it and watched two of the 'normal' replays. it is a very good style when you aren't feeling the ffe. but, comparing ffe gw timings to gw expand timings isn't good practice--ffe timings exist in a subset against 3 hatch before gas timings where as gw expand timings will go against a larger variety of builds, as a 2 base zerg will get gas at any given time relative to its third, so it's impossible to say which one is "better" in forcing units before lair. what i like about the guide you cited is that it should hit at such a time where roach speed is always further off than it is with the push in the guide that i posted. i will probably try the style you mention on entombed a few times, as i do not like ffe there and use a different kind of expand which is similar to the one you mention in a lot of ways, but also very different in its pressure timings. thank you for referring me to that that style--it has opened my mind to a degree  | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
heroic dt 3rd | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
So for example on daybreak, ill get like 6 sentries and 3 immortals, and then do a warpprism drop in 2 of the zergs bases, and simultaeneously set up my third. This puts the zerg in a tricky situation so that they can't stop all three things happening at once, and if the zerg gives you a minute and a half to set up sim city at the third you are set up for the game. | ||
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Salts
Canada32 Posts
Oh, wow. I love this build. I have yet to execute it anywhere near to perfection, but I haven't lost with it yet (only 4 games, but still) and I've never felt like I had so much map control over a zerg. Since returning to SC2 after a year-long hiatus I've been trying to decide what to do after my cybercore finishes when FFEing (so much potential, why did it take so long for FFE to take off like it has?). I clumsily stumbled upon the 4gate +1 zealot pressure into blink stalker play but couldn't refine it very well. I looked into it more, found this thread, and then this. You've completely changed my PvZ winrate. Thanks a ton! | ||
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HKnNor
Norway8 Posts
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CookieMonsta02
United States37 Posts
On April 13 2012 13:08 Alejandrisha wrote: been working on some transitions and i have a nice one to add-- 9 py (3 cb on nexus) 14 forge (@100% start +1 weapons) 17 nex 17 gate 17 pylon 17 cannon 18 probe; cb nexus once 19 gas 20 2nd gas 21 core **3 probes on 1st gas, 2 on the 2nd gas; alternatively, 3 on both and pull one from each when +1 starts** maintain probes on both nexuses, but don't CB them ~23 zealot (1 CB) ~28 2nd zealot and WG (1 CB zeal; 3 CB WG) ~33 pylon ~34 stalker ~40 3 gates from here, add an in base pylon then your proxy pylon. the 2z1s will help you secure a proxy pylon if you don't have a probe hidden already. next, make sure 3 probes on each of your main gases. now add a 3rd gas and a twilight council ~48 1st zealot warpin [4] **add 4th gas in between 1st and 2nd cycle** ~60 2nd zealot warpin[4] (probe production is maintained through these cycles!! I recommend cb'ing the gates in between rounds. you should have 3-4 available. if you take the 3rd down, save what zealots you can. you can micro vs lings/slow roaches to some extent. get some more bang for your buck out of those guys. if he holds it with roaches, that's not too bad because he must have delayed his lair more than he would have liked to get roches out. if he held it with lings, O_O when your WGs come up again get a round of sentries. Your TC will be finishing around now. Use your banked gas to start blink and +2. add 2-3 additional gates. i like to get a robo as well for an obs in case they have blink when you move out. You'll want to CB +2 heavily. It's not entirely necessary to cb blink (+2 is 190s vs the 150s of blink) and you'll want to bank some cb for the push. **Cut probes at about 50-52. this means: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ? on each mineral line, 12 on gas total (+1 for mr. proxy probe) blink and +2 will finish between 11:00 and 11:30. you'll have about 16 stalkers, 4-5 sentries and whatever zealots you managed to salvage from your +1 4g push, and an obs if you opted for one. now go kill! skeleton http://drop.sc/158976 Just wondering if this is a typo or something, but you have "14 forge (@100% +1 Attack)" but in this build you dont take gas ti'll 19 and 20, plus wait time for the assims to finish and then time to mine the 100 gas needed, seems like +1 wont get started ti'll quite some time after the forge finishes. | ||
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GramCracker
United States18 Posts
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GramCracker
United States18 Posts
On June 01 2012 00:57 CookieMonsta02 wrote: Just wondering if this is a typo or something, but you have "14 forge (@100% +1 Attack)" but in this build you dont take gas ti'll 19 and 20, plus wait time for the assims to finish and then time to mine the 100 gas needed, seems like +1 wont get started ti'll quite some time after the forge finishes. He means that the second the forge is finished, start +1 Attack upgrade. | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
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