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On January 09 2012 02:30 Zarent wrote:
Just a question - What do you do with this build if you witness an EXTREMELY early third? Like one that is placed immediately after the Nat expansion?
What I've been doing is attempting to send a probe to the third covered by my first zealot and throw down a pylon and cannon behind the mineral line, but this seems extremely vulnerable to the first few lings scouting my probe and killing it. If I miss this cannon, I have absolutely no early game plan since the +1 Zealot poke can be deferred by a few roaches before they can actively damage the third.
if they have get a super fast 3rd like that, you can almost guarantee it's roaches. i recommend getting a robo and then 4 more gates instead of just 3 gateways and going for a 4 sentry drop. this takes the pressure off of you allowing you to probe freely and get yourself a faster 3rd without having to worry about a pure roach bust. the wp play is quite effective against 3 base roach, especially on maps like metal where you can abuse the distance between main and nat min lines. drop the sentries, warp in a few zealots and ff the drones to their doom. you can snipe key tech structures (spire, for instance) doing this, as zergs tend to stuff these in their mineral lines
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On January 12 2012 12:52 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 08:43 bankai wrote:Hey Alej, What do you think of delaying the 2nd/3rd/4th gate and instead building robo at 6:30, then gates at 7mins. This means that we can get an observer into zerg's base by 8:30-9mins to scout their tech (e.g. mutas) and we can still warp in zealots at the third around 8:15min. I was thinking of this because I felt that in the OP, if we get the robo later (you seem to get it around 8mins i think in the replays i saw) then we only just get a obs scout in around 10mins which is a small margin of time to react to 2-base mutas. Sorry, still so confused about scouting 2-base vs 3-base play! Do you mainly scout through your zealot pressure and seeing their units? Also, did you have any replays against a roach/ling all-in at 7:15min? I saw your replay against 2-base roach, but wanted to see one too with lings  There is a variation you can do that gets the robo after 1 gate but then adds 4 additional gates and a wp for sentry drop. you can scout the spire if it's in the main, and kill it, too :D with the 4 gates first build, i've been adding 2 gases right after the additional gateways and then the robo, though you can probably get the robo and then the 2 gases. also i've been keeping only 2 guys in each of the first two geysers after i've mined about a hundred gas and then putting them back on once the robo starts. really helps getting the 2 zealots out and continuing good probe production while adding infrastructure. if you go through i've had a lot of success scouting with a 2nd probe that leaves as you put down your first cannon. having 2 probes out on the map means you should always know if it's 2 bases or 3 bases. ~6 mins is a good time to check for the 3rd, if not a bit earlier. if you don't have a probe out for the gw pressure, i recommend doing the wp build i mentioned above but if you're doing the pure gw press variation, and your zerg opponent is only defending with lings (and thus losing the third) make sure you poke into the nat after you take it down. if you see spines, you can immediately rule out roach. that means muta or infestor (or hydra, i've found o_0). by the time i need to know the difference, i can get my obs there in time. really all you need to do is warp in a round of 4-5 stalkers along with the round of sentries you should have made after ceasing zealot production to hold off the first muta fly-by
Alej - you are the man! thanks a lot
I like the sound of the robo-->4gates-->WP sentry drop idea and read about this in Arcane's thread (although that includes a void ray into the mix as well). If you open with robo before the additional gates, how do you defend against roach/ling all-ins?? since we are building sentries early, I assume just build lots of cannons??
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only do the wp build if you've confirmed 3rd base. doesn't really have a leg to stand on vs. a 2 base zerg
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On January 12 2012 15:26 Alejandrisha wrote:
only do the wp build if you've confirmed 3rd base. doesn't really have a leg to stand on vs. a 2 base zerg
Thanks Alej!
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What do I do if the zerg scouts my 3 gates building and makes a ton of lings. Do I just warp in and continue with it or warp in sentries and macro, in that case I would lose.
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I didn't realize you wrote this guide as well as the 4-gate is dead thread I've been using this build for the past week or two and it's honestly a fantastic way to play the matchup. I've beaten many GM / pro zergs using this style, and it also makes the matchup incredibly versatile and fun to play.
Thanks for writing this up I always plop down my robo and twilight at the same time and usually go straight into blink, +2, a warp prism, and then some immortals. Using chronoboost on probes early to get a good econ, then chrono on upgrades to get to +3 as fast as possible and start melting zergs. I want to play around with a double forge style as well, but I'm not sure if you have the gas for any double ups beyond +1 until you have a 3rd.
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On January 14 2012 21:57 soLremarK wrote:I didn't realize you wrote this guide as well as the 4-gate is dead thread I've been using this build for the past week or two and it's honestly a fantastic way to play the matchup. I've beaten many GM / pro zergs using this style, and it also makes the matchup incredibly versatile and fun to play. Thanks for writing this up I always plop down my robo and twilight at the same time and usually go straight into blink, +2, a warp prism, and then some immortals. Using chronoboost on probes early to get a good econ, then chrono on upgrades to get to +3 as fast as possible and start melting zergs. I want to play around with a double forge style as well, but I'm not sure if you have the gas for any double ups beyond +1 until you have a 3rd.
I find that armor upgrades dont do that much for you, while attack upgrades help tremendously:
zealot drops, collosi, stalkers. you are always at the range advantage ! PvZ is a tad to gas intensive for 2 forges, I feel like.
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yeah. the only times i've gotten 2 forges is like... on 3 bases and forge gets sniped and then sure double upgrades why not. but `going` double upgrades doesn't seem very good. the whole idea of stalker/sentry/colo or immort/ht is based around you NOT taking damage from roaches/lings. if you're taking damage from these, you aren't using your ffs correctly :D
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Copied and pasted this into a google doc so I can rearrange and edit to my own style. Thanks Also HerO rules! ^^
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np! i'm considering adding the robo + 5 gate +1 variation.. not sure if it warrants its own thread or if it can be tacked on to here
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On January 12 2012 12:55 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 02:30 Zarent wrote:
Just a question - What do you do with this build if you witness an EXTREMELY early third? Like one that is placed immediately after the Nat expansion?
What I've been doing is attempting to send a probe to the third covered by my first zealot and throw down a pylon and cannon behind the mineral line, but this seems extremely vulnerable to the first few lings scouting my probe and killing it. If I miss this cannon, I have absolutely no early game plan since the +1 Zealot poke can be deferred by a few roaches before they can actively damage the third. if they have get a super fast 3rd like that, you can almost guarantee it's roaches. i recommend getting a robo and then 4 more gates instead of just 3 gateways and going for a 4 sentry drop. this takes the pressure off of you allowing you to probe freely and get yourself a faster 3rd without having to worry about a pure roach bust. the wp play is quite effective against 3 base roach, especially on maps like metal where you can abuse the distance between main and nat min lines. drop the sentries, warp in a few zealots and ff the drones to their doom. you can snipe key tech structures (spire, for instance) doing this, as zergs tend to stuff these in their mineral lines
I really think you should do some kind of zealot pressure vs fast 3rd every time. I used to play like you described but I sometimes ran into Zerg players who skipped roaches entirely and actually had mutas in time to snipe the warp prism as it was flying around. That's a greedy move that never works against zealot pressure, but if they know you're going straight to robo from the last time you met on ladder, that's the kind of risks they can get away with.
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On January 22 2012 08:34 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 12:55 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 09 2012 02:30 Zarent wrote:
Just a question - What do you do with this build if you witness an EXTREMELY early third? Like one that is placed immediately after the Nat expansion?
What I've been doing is attempting to send a probe to the third covered by my first zealot and throw down a pylon and cannon behind the mineral line, but this seems extremely vulnerable to the first few lings scouting my probe and killing it. If I miss this cannon, I have absolutely no early game plan since the +1 Zealot poke can be deferred by a few roaches before they can actively damage the third. if they have get a super fast 3rd like that, you can almost guarantee it's roaches. i recommend getting a robo and then 4 more gates instead of just 3 gateways and going for a 4 sentry drop. this takes the pressure off of you allowing you to probe freely and get yourself a faster 3rd without having to worry about a pure roach bust. the wp play is quite effective against 3 base roach, especially on maps like metal where you can abuse the distance between main and nat min lines. drop the sentries, warp in a few zealots and ff the drones to their doom. you can snipe key tech structures (spire, for instance) doing this, as zergs tend to stuff these in their mineral lines I really think you should do some kind of zealot pressure vs fast 3rd every time. I used to play like you described but I sometimes ran into Zerg players who skipped roaches entirely and actually had mutas in time to snipe the warp prism as it was flying around. That's a greedy move that never works against zealot pressure, but if they know you're going straight to robo from the last time you met on ladder, that's the kind of risks they can get away with.
the wp has some pretty nice zealot pressure behind it, but it comes up to a minute later than w/o the WP drop. You can do both, but I usually opt for the sentry play simply because my 2 probes got found on the map by lings
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So you always get DTs as part of your midgame core? You also mention it's hard it's hard to secure your 3rd if you don't do enough damage with your DTs, so I assume you mean you can't deter pushes at your 3rd with the threat of DTs? Do zergs players just make a boatload of overseers and push you with roach spam or something?
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On January 22 2012 08:22 Alejandrisha wrote:
np! i'm considering adding the robo + 5 gate +1 variation.. not sure if it warrants its own thread or if it can be tacked on to here
Please do! I love this guide but im always looking for new ways to do it. I would appreciate it greatly
Edit: Do you have a replay of you doing WP sentry drops vs. a very fast 3rd?
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Why didn't I see this 2 weeks ago when I started playing again? lol T_T. Well, better late than never. Thanks a lot to the dude who showed it to me  . Great guide. I'll really try it out this weekend.
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On January 26 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:
So you always get DTs as part of your midgame core? You also mention it's hard it's hard to secure your 3rd if you don't do enough damage with your DTs, so I assume you mean you can't deter pushes at your 3rd with the threat of DTs? Do zergs players just make a boatload of overseers and push you with roach spam or something?
nah i don't really do the dt thing anymore, and neither does herO from what I've gathered. for me it has become 6-7 gates and blink with ~2 immortal if i see any roaches. been getting my 3rd quite conservatively if i can do damage with the 4g +1 zeal push or robo 5gate wp sentry harass. if i don't see an opening to do damage with off of 2 bases, i take the 3rd and 4th gases faster and play more reactively. still trying to find good 3rd/aggression timings against a zerg who doesn't take quick 3rd, as all tosses are atm ^^
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On January 26 2012 16:11 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:
So you always get DTs as part of your midgame core? You also mention it's hard it's hard to secure your 3rd if you don't do enough damage with your DTs, so I assume you mean you can't deter pushes at your 3rd with the threat of DTs? Do zergs players just make a boatload of overseers and push you with roach spam or something? nah i don't really do the dt thing anymore, and neither does herO from what I've gathered. for me it has become 6-7 gates and blink with ~2 immortal if i see any roaches. been getting my 3rd quite conservatively if i can do damage with the 4g +1 zeal push or robo 5gate wp sentry harass. if i don't see an opening to do damage with off of 2 bases, i take the 3rd and 4th gases faster and play more reactively. still trying to find good 3rd/aggression timings against a zerg who doesn't take quick 3rd, as all tosses are atm ^^
Haha yeah it's kind of funny actually how it seems most protosses nowadays seem to be more comfortable playing vs fast 3rd hatch than the old-school 2-base roach. I feel like if your timings are tight, you can still more or less force zerg to go roaches with warp prism harass even if they are on 2-base as I can hit a timing where I'm warping in zealots in their main @ 9 mins with 1/1 zealots. As far as I've seen, this is right before any possible mutas/infestors pop, and the zealots can do a ton of damage before mutas pop and clean them up, and it seems pretty much auto-win vs infestorling so far. I started out with 7-gates behind my initial warp prism harass, then reduced it to 6. Now I'm thinking I may be able to get away with just 5 gates.
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On January 26 2012 16:11 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 05:02 Skyro wrote:
So you always get DTs as part of your midgame core? You also mention it's hard it's hard to secure your 3rd if you don't do enough damage with your DTs, so I assume you mean you can't deter pushes at your 3rd with the threat of DTs? Do zergs players just make a boatload of overseers and push you with roach spam or something? nah i don't really do the dt thing anymore, and neither does herO from what I've gathered. for me it has become 6-7 gates and blink with ~2 immortal if i see any roaches. been getting my 3rd quite conservatively if i can do damage with the 4g +1 zeal push or robo 5gate wp sentry harass. if i don't see an opening to do damage with off of 2 bases, i take the 3rd and 4th gases faster and play more reactively. still trying to find good 3rd/aggression timings against a zerg who doesn't take quick 3rd, as all tosses are atm ^^
Well, I'm glad to hear that you are struggling with timings against Z who take late 3rds. Not that I want toss to struggle, but in lowly diamond, these two base variations are as common as a fast third. Even in the intro, you note not to do the build vs a 2base all-in, but I've encountered so many variations of 2-base tech into a late 3rd (8-10 minute third). I sometimes feel it is best to do straight 4-gate pressure against a 2base opening (rather than straight zealot). But the options for zerg (especially muta vs hydra) when they don't take a fast third can be scary. I find that when I pressure, they often have an army. But if I don't pressure, they greedily tech off of 2 zerglings into hydra/muta/infestor.
I also have been using a robo/4gate with prism before obs to pressure against 2 base. The warp prism allows me the same scouting as the obs with a chance to pressure the zerg without the threat of losing all my units. I don't know how viable this is at masters/GM but perhaps it is similar to your 5gate/robo.
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What is you usual follow-up if you encounter the worst case scenario of seeing the Zerg rush for speed and kill your both probes before you can confirm if he kept mining gas or take a third base?
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EPT
