EPTOn December 12 2011 05:13 Oreo7 wrote:
I like getting 2 zealots too, I get my cyber before 2nd zel however. The wg timing is too close to delay the core imho.
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2011 09:02 Alejandrisha wrote:
getting out 2 zealots is actually a really strong play and I recommend playing around with it. you will probably have to get your core a little bit later because it's a lot of minerals to spend so early, but as long as you start your core around the 5 min mark you should be able to get wg done to sync up with your additional gates.
the 2 zealots will guarantee you clearing the tower(s) unless they made a bunch of speedlings, and if they made a bunch of speedlings against your ffe, theres a good chance they are trying to all in you off of 2 base with roach/bane/drop/nydus bs, so warp in sentries defensively if you have time, add cannons. your 2 sentries out of your gateway are extremely important here. don't get too greedy!
On December 06 2011 07:59 bankai wrote:
Great thanks again Time!
Alej - any luck on that 2zealot scouting idea (page 3 of this thread)? Have been using this build a lot lately, and have to say it works wonders against the early third style but still having problems scouting 2-base play. From what i can see, they can do broadly one of three things:
(a) Take a later (and safer) third with roaches or roach/hydra after getting saturation at their 2-bases
(b) Mutas or ling/infestor
(c) 7:30 roach/ling all-in
Scouting the difference between (a) and (c) I find is hard, so always prepare for the 7:30min all-in with more sentries/cannons. If it doesnt come by 8mins, then I put down my robo/TC. But doing this means I wont get a WP or observer scout until 9:30min (?). Then I can either tech colossi (if roach/hydra) or blink/HT (if muta/infestor) but its this point I struggle to decide cos I dont have enough info from scouting yet.
So want to know how do you effectively scout and respond to zerg 2-base play?
On December 02 2011 14:39 iSTime wrote:
My experience is that the bolded is not true. The stalkers aren't really there to deny the 3rd, they're mostly there to scare the zerg into overproducing units and maybe kill a roach or two. I don't think you should ever be able to kill the 3rd base against a player who makes roaches, the purpose is just to force non-drones. It is acceptable for your 3rd to be placed later than theirs as long as you are keeping up on workers and being cost-effective with harass.
On December 02 2011 09:39 bankai wrote:
Thanks for your advice Time!
So on your 2nd paragraph, are you saying against 3-base roach you should still go ahead with the 8zealot pressure, but just wait for the next 4 stalker warp-in...in other words, still focus on denying their 3rd, but do it with an additional 4 stalkers?
Just trying to clear in my head the overall strategy against 3base roach - it sounds like the only way to play against this is to deny their third. If not, then we are way behind economically. And taking our own 3rd is not feasible cos they can roach spam shortly afterwards....is that correct?
On December 02 2011 08:51 iSTime wrote:
I haven't really played much of the really early WP+DT stuff, but I often open similarly up until the robo+twilight+zealot harass. I think getting blink and collossi is a much easier way to play. You can easily take a 3rd against 3 base roach at around 13 minutes, with 2 collossi out. Dealing with the mutas that often follow the roach opening just requires a good sense of when mutas will come. Make 1-2 cannons and move blink stalkers into position at that time.
Like canopus said, you can't kill their 3rd base even with a close pylon if they have roaches up in time. However, you can pull back your 7-8 zealots without losing many, and warp in 4 stalkers to force even more roaches+lings. Unless they make a lot of speedlings in addition to the roaches, you should get away without losing many units. Even if they have enough speedlings to catch your units, I think the harass is almost always worth it economically.
On December 02 2011 07:51 bankai wrote:
Some thoughts on this from an experienced player?
Was thinking, does taking an early third ourselves work against 3-base roach (zerg taking an early third)?
On December 01 2011 08:27 bankai wrote:
I am also having problems with 3 base roach. On maps like Meta where the third is close, the roaches can easily walk over and deny the zealot harass.
DT has worked to some extent but sometimes they blindly drop spores and deny that too,
Anyone know how to play against 3-base roach where the 3rd is early?
Also, how do you know when its safe to take a third yourself against this? I have faced so many roach into muta transitions, its really hard to deal with. I want to go Colossus against Roach, but then Muta would be hard to stop.
On November 28 2011 16:11 Canopus wrote:
I'm a mid masters protoss and have been playing this build for about a week. I read your response to 3 base roach zerg and it sounds grimm. I'm noticing a competent zerg can prevent you from killing the 3rd (even with a very close pylon), and your listed response is warp prism harras with dts and zealots to try and snipe buildings. I don't like this response because if the zerg doesn't make mistakes your going to lose. Your basically hoping for the zerg to screw up. Have you found any other responses that work? I've won a few games by responding with a very fast 3rd, but I feel as though a strong player will kill you in that window.
I'm a mid masters protoss and have been playing this build for about a week. I read your response to 3 base roach zerg and it sounds grimm. I'm noticing a competent zerg can prevent you from killing the 3rd (even with a very close pylon), and your listed response is warp prism harras with dts and zealots to try and snipe buildings. I don't like this response because if the zerg doesn't make mistakes your going to lose. Your basically hoping for the zerg to screw up. Have you found any other responses that work? I've won a few games by responding with a very fast 3rd, but I feel as though a strong player will kill you in that window.
I am also having problems with 3 base roach. On maps like Meta where the third is close, the roaches can easily walk over and deny the zealot harass.
DT has worked to some extent but sometimes they blindly drop spores and deny that too,
Anyone know how to play against 3-base roach where the 3rd is early?
Also, how do you know when its safe to take a third yourself against this? I have faced so many roach into muta transitions, its really hard to deal with. I want to go Colossus against Roach, but then Muta would be hard to stop.
Some thoughts on this from an experienced player?
Was thinking, does taking an early third ourselves work against 3-base roach (zerg taking an early third)?
I haven't really played much of the really early WP+DT stuff, but I often open similarly up until the robo+twilight+zealot harass. I think getting blink and collossi is a much easier way to play. You can easily take a 3rd against 3 base roach at around 13 minutes, with 2 collossi out. Dealing with the mutas that often follow the roach opening just requires a good sense of when mutas will come. Make 1-2 cannons and move blink stalkers into position at that time.
Like canopus said, you can't kill their 3rd base even with a close pylon if they have roaches up in time. However, you can pull back your 7-8 zealots without losing many, and warp in 4 stalkers to force even more roaches+lings. Unless they make a lot of speedlings in addition to the roaches, you should get away without losing many units. Even if they have enough speedlings to catch your units, I think the harass is almost always worth it economically.
Thanks for your advice Time!
So on your 2nd paragraph, are you saying against 3-base roach you should still go ahead with the 8zealot pressure, but just wait for the next 4 stalker warp-in...in other words, still focus on denying their 3rd, but do it with an additional 4 stalkers?
Just trying to clear in my head the overall strategy against 3base roach - it sounds like the only way to play against this is to deny their third. If not, then we are way behind economically. And taking our own 3rd is not feasible cos they can roach spam shortly afterwards....is that correct?
My experience is that the bolded is not true. The stalkers aren't really there to deny the 3rd, they're mostly there to scare the zerg into overproducing units and maybe kill a roach or two. I don't think you should ever be able to kill the 3rd base against a player who makes roaches, the purpose is just to force non-drones. It is acceptable for your 3rd to be placed later than theirs as long as you are keeping up on workers and being cost-effective with harass.
Great thanks again Time!
Alej - any luck on that 2zealot scouting idea (page 3 of this thread)? Have been using this build a lot lately, and have to say it works wonders against the early third style but still having problems scouting 2-base play. From what i can see, they can do broadly one of three things:
(a) Take a later (and safer) third with roaches or roach/hydra after getting saturation at their 2-bases
(b) Mutas or ling/infestor
(c) 7:30 roach/ling all-in
Scouting the difference between (a) and (c) I find is hard, so always prepare for the 7:30min all-in with more sentries/cannons. If it doesnt come by 8mins, then I put down my robo/TC. But doing this means I wont get a WP or observer scout until 9:30min (?). Then I can either tech colossi (if roach/hydra) or blink/HT (if muta/infestor) but its this point I struggle to decide cos I dont have enough info from scouting yet.
So want to know how do you effectively scout and respond to zerg 2-base play?
getting out 2 zealots is actually a really strong play and I recommend playing around with it. you will probably have to get your core a little bit later because it's a lot of minerals to spend so early, but as long as you start your core around the 5 min mark you should be able to get wg done to sync up with your additional gates.
the 2 zealots will guarantee you clearing the tower(s) unless they made a bunch of speedlings, and if they made a bunch of speedlings against your ffe, theres a good chance they are trying to all in you off of 2 base with roach/bane/drop/nydus bs, so warp in sentries defensively if you have time, add cannons. your 2 sentries out of your gateway are extremely important here. don't get too greedy!
I like getting 2 zealots too, I get my cyber before 2nd zel however. The wg timing is too close to delay the core imho.
yeah never delay your core for a zealot unless you absolutely have to. i'm not sure if my 2 zealots always come at the same timing every game but what you have said sounds about right. some games you get your gases a little bit later or sooner depending on how many probes you have around the map, when you put up your gate like if it was after forge before cannon or after forge and cannon; sometimes i only have probes on one of the gases for a bit because my mineral income is slacking which might help you out if you can't squeeze out the 2nd zealot while getting everything else up with constant probes from both nexus, but you still end up having +1 as your 4 zealots get to the third.
