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On December 06 2011 07:59 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 14:39 iSTime wrote:On December 02 2011 09:39 bankai wrote:On December 02 2011 08:51 iSTime wrote:On December 02 2011 07:51 bankai wrote:On December 01 2011 08:27 bankai wrote:On November 28 2011 16:11 Canopus wrote:
I'm a mid masters protoss and have been playing this build for about a week. I read your response to 3 base roach zerg and it sounds grimm. I'm noticing a competent zerg can prevent you from killing the 3rd (even with a very close pylon), and your listed response is warp prism harras with dts and zealots to try and snipe buildings. I don't like this response because if the zerg doesn't make mistakes your going to lose. Your basically hoping for the zerg to screw up. Have you found any other responses that work? I've won a few games by responding with a very fast 3rd, but I feel as though a strong player will kill you in that window. I am also having problems with 3 base roach. On maps like Meta where the third is close, the roaches can easily walk over and deny the zealot harass. DT has worked to some extent but sometimes they blindly drop spores and deny that too, Anyone know how to play against 3-base roach where the 3rd is early? Also, how do you know when its safe to take a third yourself against this? I have faced so many roach into muta transitions, its really hard to deal with. I want to go Colossus against Roach, but then Muta would be hard to stop. Some thoughts on this from an experienced player? Was thinking, does taking an early third ourselves work against 3-base roach (zerg taking an early third)? I haven't really played much of the really early WP+DT stuff, but I often open similarly up until the robo+twilight+zealot harass. I think getting blink and collossi is a much easier way to play. You can easily take a 3rd against 3 base roach at around 13 minutes, with 2 collossi out. Dealing with the mutas that often follow the roach opening just requires a good sense of when mutas will come. Make 1-2 cannons and move blink stalkers into position at that time. Like canopus said, you can't kill their 3rd base even with a close pylon if they have roaches up in time. However, you can pull back your 7-8 zealots without losing many, and warp in 4 stalkers to force even more roaches+lings. Unless they make a lot of speedlings in addition to the roaches, you should get away without losing many units. Even if they have enough speedlings to catch your units, I think the harass is almost always worth it economically. Thanks for your advice Time! So on your 2nd paragraph, are you saying against 3-base roach you should still go ahead with the 8zealot pressure, but just wait for the next 4 stalker warp-in...in other words, still focus on denying their 3rd, but do it with an additional 4 stalkers? Just trying to clear in my head the overall strategy against 3base roach - it sounds like the only way to play against this is to deny their third. If not, then we are way behind economically. And taking our own 3rd is not feasible cos they can roach spam shortly afterwards....is that correct? My experience is that the bolded is not true. The stalkers aren't really there to deny the 3rd, they're mostly there to scare the zerg into overproducing units and maybe kill a roach or two. I don't think you should ever be able to kill the 3rd base against a player who makes roaches, the purpose is just to force non-drones. It is acceptable for your 3rd to be placed later than theirs as long as you are keeping up on workers and being cost-effective with harass. Great thanks again Time! Alej - any luck on that 2zealot scouting idea (page 3 of this thread)? Have been using this build a lot lately, and have to say it works wonders against the early third style but still having problems scouting 2-base play. From what i can see, they can do broadly one of three things: (a) Take a later (and safer) third with roaches or roach/hydra after getting saturation at their 2-bases (b) Mutas or ling/infestor (c) 7:30 roach/ling all-in Scouting the difference between (a) and (c) I find is hard, so always prepare for the 7:30min all-in with more sentries/cannons. If it doesnt come by 8mins, then I put down my robo/TC. But doing this means I wont get a WP or observer scout until 9:30min (?). Then I can either tech colossi (if roach/hydra) or blink/HT (if muta/infestor) but its this point I struggle to decide cos I dont have enough info from scouting yet. So want to know how do you effectively scout and respond to zerg 2-base play?
getting out 2 zealots is actually a really strong play and I recommend playing around with it. you will probably have to get your core a little bit later because it's a lot of minerals to spend so early, but as long as you start your core around the 5 min mark you should be able to get wg done to sync up with your additional gates.
the 2 zealots will guarantee you clearing the tower(s) unless they made a bunch of speedlings, and if they made a bunch of speedlings against your ffe, theres a good chance they are trying to all in you off of 2 base with roach/bane/drop/nydus bs, so warp in sentries defensively if you have time, add cannons. your 2 sentries out of your gateway are extremely important here. don't get too greedy!
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On December 06 2011 09:02 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:59 bankai wrote:On December 02 2011 14:39 iSTime wrote:On December 02 2011 09:39 bankai wrote:On December 02 2011 08:51 iSTime wrote:On December 02 2011 07:51 bankai wrote:On December 01 2011 08:27 bankai wrote:On November 28 2011 16:11 Canopus wrote:
I'm a mid masters protoss and have been playing this build for about a week. I read your response to 3 base roach zerg and it sounds grimm. I'm noticing a competent zerg can prevent you from killing the 3rd (even with a very close pylon), and your listed response is warp prism harras with dts and zealots to try and snipe buildings. I don't like this response because if the zerg doesn't make mistakes your going to lose. Your basically hoping for the zerg to screw up. Have you found any other responses that work? I've won a few games by responding with a very fast 3rd, but I feel as though a strong player will kill you in that window. I am also having problems with 3 base roach. On maps like Meta where the third is close, the roaches can easily walk over and deny the zealot harass. DT has worked to some extent but sometimes they blindly drop spores and deny that too, Anyone know how to play against 3-base roach where the 3rd is early? Also, how do you know when its safe to take a third yourself against this? I have faced so many roach into muta transitions, its really hard to deal with. I want to go Colossus against Roach, but then Muta would be hard to stop. Some thoughts on this from an experienced player? Was thinking, does taking an early third ourselves work against 3-base roach (zerg taking an early third)? I haven't really played much of the really early WP+DT stuff, but I often open similarly up until the robo+twilight+zealot harass. I think getting blink and collossi is a much easier way to play. You can easily take a 3rd against 3 base roach at around 13 minutes, with 2 collossi out. Dealing with the mutas that often follow the roach opening just requires a good sense of when mutas will come. Make 1-2 cannons and move blink stalkers into position at that time. Like canopus said, you can't kill their 3rd base even with a close pylon if they have roaches up in time. However, you can pull back your 7-8 zealots without losing many, and warp in 4 stalkers to force even more roaches+lings. Unless they make a lot of speedlings in addition to the roaches, you should get away without losing many units. Even if they have enough speedlings to catch your units, I think the harass is almost always worth it economically. Thanks for your advice Time! So on your 2nd paragraph, are you saying against 3-base roach you should still go ahead with the 8zealot pressure, but just wait for the next 4 stalker warp-in...in other words, still focus on denying their 3rd, but do it with an additional 4 stalkers? Just trying to clear in my head the overall strategy against 3base roach - it sounds like the only way to play against this is to deny their third. If not, then we are way behind economically. And taking our own 3rd is not feasible cos they can roach spam shortly afterwards....is that correct? My experience is that the bolded is not true. The stalkers aren't really there to deny the 3rd, they're mostly there to scare the zerg into overproducing units and maybe kill a roach or two. I don't think you should ever be able to kill the 3rd base against a player who makes roaches, the purpose is just to force non-drones. It is acceptable for your 3rd to be placed later than theirs as long as you are keeping up on workers and being cost-effective with harass. Great thanks again Time! Alej - any luck on that 2zealot scouting idea (page 3 of this thread)? Have been using this build a lot lately, and have to say it works wonders against the early third style but still having problems scouting 2-base play. From what i can see, they can do broadly one of three things: (a) Take a later (and safer) third with roaches or roach/hydra after getting saturation at their 2-bases (b) Mutas or ling/infestor (c) 7:30 roach/ling all-in Scouting the difference between (a) and (c) I find is hard, so always prepare for the 7:30min all-in with more sentries/cannons. If it doesnt come by 8mins, then I put down my robo/TC. But doing this means I wont get a WP or observer scout until 9:30min (?). Then I can either tech colossi (if roach/hydra) or blink/HT (if muta/infestor) but its this point I struggle to decide cos I dont have enough info from scouting yet. So want to know how do you effectively scout and respond to zerg 2-base play? getting out 2 zealots is actually a really strong play and I recommend playing around with it. you will probably have to get your core a little bit later because it's a lot of minerals to spend so early, but as long as you start your core around the 5 min mark you should be able to get wg done to sync up with your additional gates. the 2 zealots will guarantee you clearing the tower(s) unless they made a bunch of speedlings, and if they made a bunch of speedlings against your ffe, theres a good chance they are trying to all in you off of 2 base with roach/bane/drop/nydus bs, so warp in sentries defensively if you have time, add cannons. your 2 sentries out of your gateway are extremely important here. don't get too greedy!
great to hear your opinion Alej!
Not sure if u read Noumena's thread about WP harass, but basically he opens 1 gas to get earlier zealots and a robo, then later the 4xGWs. What are your thoughts on getting a later 2nd gas to allow for the 2zealots and Core earlier? The only negative i can think of is that it delays your +1 attack coming due to less gas.
Also, its my understanding that to scout 2-base play, you need to scout them at around the 8-8:30min mark. How do you do this? The 2 zealot scout is more for scouting 1base vs 2base play, and finding the possible early third right?
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So the counter to this build, from the zerg perspective, would be to go for a fast third into 3 base roaches? I assume that if the zerg were to do so, that it would be advisable for the protoss to get immorts? Forgive me if that is inappropriate, I'm just assuming that the protoss would not go any other route with his gas and robo time, simply because of how hard 4-5 immorts rape roaches, even w/o FF.
However, as a zerg, if I am facing a 6 gate robo on 2 bases, then I'll make roaches, but get infestors. Granted, it takes a while, but if the roaches can stall long enough for energy upgrade to finish, then the fungals can do a pretty decent amount of damage to the immort shields, as well as preventing blink micro. Or hell, I might even get hydras to capitalize on the lack of coli.
Then I'm assuming the toss knows how to play, so he gets HT and expands. At this point, I know that I'm lagging behind, so I might provoke a base trade with nydus. If you go along with it, then we trade sides of the map and I get back to three bases before you finish clearing out my others. After which I take the offensive and try to kill you before you get support bay up. If you don't go with it and fall back to kill the worm, then I capitalize on my free macro time and get more shit.
As a toss, how would you respond at this point? I realize that it's a regular 6 gate when you get into mid-game, however it is slightly more vulnerable to a 6 pool. But, if you're on a map when FFE is common (all of them), then most zergs won't 6/7 pool. So, I give my stamp of approval to any toss wanting to try this out.
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None of the replay links are working for me, I'm curious if anyone esle has been having trouble as well.
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On December 09 2011 03:13 Drolla wrote:
None of the replay links are working for me, I'm curious if anyone esle has been having trouble as well.
Go watch Hero's MLG and Dreamhack VODs. He has been using this build a lot.
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Thanx dude! Always love your guides
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I really suck at scouting out the baneling bust. T_T
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Seems like the replays are wrong. I got matches vs Spades and some other terrans and toss :/
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On December 09 2011 05:58 DGenerate wrote:
Seems like the replays are wrong. I got matches vs Spades and some other terrans and toss :/
Thanks for making me dl and watch 5 of my own replays :p
All of the replays are uploaded correctly. I will be uploading more soon, too.
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All of the images are shot?
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edit: pics should be taken care of
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On December 09 2011 10:44 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:58 DGenerate wrote:
Seems like the replays are wrong. I got matches vs Spades and some other terrans and toss :/ Thanks for making me dl and watch 5 of my own replays :p All of the replays are uploaded correctly. I will be uploading more soon, too.
Damn my bad man. I think I mixed up my folders. Nothing to see here, move along citizens!
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First of all. Thanks for the build Alej. I started using it yesterday and though I've only done it five or six times I'm starting to understand the strengths and weakneses. I have some questions I'd like to ask you.
1. What is your prefered way to play out the DT follow up to the intial Zealot harass?
I feel that Warp Prism DT drop with a Lair snipe is kind of "iffy" so I guess just sending 3 DTs out, one to each base, is the best way to go? I understand that it's situational but have you tried to do a two pronged attack with like a Lair snipe + Zealots at his third? Does it work out? I'm having some problems making the DT play effective apart from the fact that it allows me to take a third whilst harassing. In general it's the fact that you force him to make lings and/or roaches with your first 8 Zealots and since they all seem to have Hive in time for the Warp Prism play it's hard to really do any severe damage I feel. I think I've tried 3 DT - one each base twice and the snipe Lair 4 times. I just really want your oppinion on what seems to be the best way to play it out.
2. What do you feel is an ideal timing to get your Templars Archives(TA)?
I've managed to lose some games due to forgetting the TA and then not having the AoE damage needed in the midgame to deal with mass Roaches. That's obviously an error from my part but I would like to have some sort of advice that I can try to incorporate in to the build. Like do you get the TA as you take your 3d?
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Lately I've been forgoing the dt harass and trying to get a more solid mid game with an earlier 3rd base. it's really hard to do this if they opened up safely with 3 base roach, as a good zerg will take a fast 4th and tech to whatever ungodly zerg comp they can get to safely. but if you manage to do a little chip damage--killing off a lot of drones, forcing lings, or even getting the hatch, i recommend going up to 6 gates, getting blink and some immortals and have a foundation of 6-8 sentries (shouldn't be an issue since you are pooling off of 4 gases during your zealot push(es) and going for ht once you get your 3rd nexus down.
some good kor tosses get their ht tech started even sooner, but i fear faster muta switches and want to get blink/stalkers out instead of making that big gas investment much earlier. the way i've been dealing with muta switches is: blink stalkers now, ht storm later--i haven't had much problems dealing with the initial flock of muta but you will die to it if you don't get ht EVENTUALLY.. and then have 1-2 at each base and still lose your main + nat nexi in base trade :p
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awesome guide, this will help my poor pvz loads. thanks!
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On December 11 2011 08:45 Alejandrisha wrote:
Lately I've been forgoing the dt harass and trying to get a more solid mid game with an earlier 3rd base. it's really hard to do this if they opened up safely with 3 base roach, as a good zerg will take a fast 4th and tech to whatever ungodly zerg comp they can get to safely. but if you manage to do a little chip damage--killing off a lot of drones, forcing lings, or even getting the hatch, i recommend going up to 6 gates, getting blink and some immortals and have a foundation of 6-8 sentries (shouldn't be an issue since you are pooling off of 4 gases during your zealot push(es) and going for ht once you get your 3rd nexus down.
some good kor tosses get their ht tech started even sooner, but i fear faster muta switches and want to get blink/stalkers out instead of making that big gas investment much earlier. the way i've been dealing with muta switches is: blink stalkers now, ht storm later--i haven't had much problems dealing with the initial flock of muta but you will die to it if you don't get ht EVENTUALLY.. and then have 1-2 at each base and still lose your main + nat nexi in base trade :p
Sounds like a smart plan to me. I might try it out as well. Do you skip the Warp Prism harass altogether then or do you just make one and keep it on his side of the map and try to harass with some Zealot warp ins if he tries to move out and attack your third?
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Thanks a lot.
I've been having trouble with mid-game harass, and I feel as if the proxy pylons and warp prisms are hard to remember to do when there is so much macro going on.
I like your philosophy on this build, and I plan to implement it in my PvZs!
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On December 12 2011 02:33 Tekakan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 08:45 Alejandrisha wrote:
Lately I've been forgoing the dt harass and trying to get a more solid mid game with an earlier 3rd base. it's really hard to do this if they opened up safely with 3 base roach, as a good zerg will take a fast 4th and tech to whatever ungodly zerg comp they can get to safely. but if you manage to do a little chip damage--killing off a lot of drones, forcing lings, or even getting the hatch, i recommend going up to 6 gates, getting blink and some immortals and have a foundation of 6-8 sentries (shouldn't be an issue since you are pooling off of 4 gases during your zealot push(es) and going for ht once you get your 3rd nexus down.
some good kor tosses get their ht tech started even sooner, but i fear faster muta switches and want to get blink/stalkers out instead of making that big gas investment much earlier. the way i've been dealing with muta switches is: blink stalkers now, ht storm later--i haven't had much problems dealing with the initial flock of muta but you will die to it if you don't get ht EVENTUALLY.. and then have 1-2 at each base and still lose your main + nat nexi in base trade :p Sounds like a smart plan to me. I might try it out as well. Do you skip the Warp Prism harass altogether then or do you just make one and keep it on his side of the map and try to harass with some Zealot warp ins if he tries to move out and attack your third?
If you can fit in the WP right after you finish your robo (if you have the mins.. I'm not sure how well this really works out as you're making str8 zealots at the time), then do that. I prefer to use the wp for a sentry drop since zealot drops after your pylon gets cleaned up by roaches don't really do much of anything, though that's not too bad since it's purely a mineral investment. after the zealot pressure, though, my robo is usually pumpin the shit out of immortals so i have at least 2 along with my 6-8 sentries to hold off a roach bust, which usually comes as you often force the z to over-make roaches in response to the zealot pressure (which is why you can't take your 3rd right away even if you get the hatch down if roaches are out.... we'll that's a lie i've seen herO do it while streaming but idk that's why he's probably the best pvz in the world atm).
once you have a strong enough sentry/immortal/whatever comp... usually like 6 stalkers at this point so if a muta switch comes you're not dead immediately... so that you are no longer afraid of a roach bust, you can take your 3rd and with good simcity at 3rd you should be safe. just always watch for the muta switch because that shit is trending right now.
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I'm loving 4gate agression so much right now in big map pvz, you can almost always kill their 3rd, and then the Z either does the smart thing and re-expands or tries to come kill you, but you can hold fine with blinkers/ffs/immortals and then warp in zels int heir main. Awesome.
I've found I feel safe taking my 3rd at ~11-14 minute mark.
If the guy goes muta, I like to go up to just go kill him, I like getting the +1 so lings aren't too big a problem.
If I kill the 3rd succesfully, I start making immortals right away, common response is a roach heavy counter.
Just my thoughts after a little while using this.
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On December 06 2011 09:02 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:59 bankai wrote:On December 02 2011 14:39 iSTime wrote:On December 02 2011 09:39 bankai wrote:On December 02 2011 08:51 iSTime wrote:On December 02 2011 07:51 bankai wrote:On December 01 2011 08:27 bankai wrote:On November 28 2011 16:11 Canopus wrote:
I'm a mid masters protoss and have been playing this build for about a week. I read your response to 3 base roach zerg and it sounds grimm. I'm noticing a competent zerg can prevent you from killing the 3rd (even with a very close pylon), and your listed response is warp prism harras with dts and zealots to try and snipe buildings. I don't like this response because if the zerg doesn't make mistakes your going to lose. Your basically hoping for the zerg to screw up. Have you found any other responses that work? I've won a few games by responding with a very fast 3rd, but I feel as though a strong player will kill you in that window. I am also having problems with 3 base roach. On maps like Meta where the third is close, the roaches can easily walk over and deny the zealot harass. DT has worked to some extent but sometimes they blindly drop spores and deny that too, Anyone know how to play against 3-base roach where the 3rd is early? Also, how do you know when its safe to take a third yourself against this? I have faced so many roach into muta transitions, its really hard to deal with. I want to go Colossus against Roach, but then Muta would be hard to stop. Some thoughts on this from an experienced player? Was thinking, does taking an early third ourselves work against 3-base roach (zerg taking an early third)? I haven't really played much of the really early WP+DT stuff, but I often open similarly up until the robo+twilight+zealot harass. I think getting blink and collossi is a much easier way to play. You can easily take a 3rd against 3 base roach at around 13 minutes, with 2 collossi out. Dealing with the mutas that often follow the roach opening just requires a good sense of when mutas will come. Make 1-2 cannons and move blink stalkers into position at that time. Like canopus said, you can't kill their 3rd base even with a close pylon if they have roaches up in time. However, you can pull back your 7-8 zealots without losing many, and warp in 4 stalkers to force even more roaches+lings. Unless they make a lot of speedlings in addition to the roaches, you should get away without losing many units. Even if they have enough speedlings to catch your units, I think the harass is almost always worth it economically. Thanks for your advice Time! So on your 2nd paragraph, are you saying against 3-base roach you should still go ahead with the 8zealot pressure, but just wait for the next 4 stalker warp-in...in other words, still focus on denying their 3rd, but do it with an additional 4 stalkers? Just trying to clear in my head the overall strategy against 3base roach - it sounds like the only way to play against this is to deny their third. If not, then we are way behind economically. And taking our own 3rd is not feasible cos they can roach spam shortly afterwards....is that correct? My experience is that the bolded is not true. The stalkers aren't really there to deny the 3rd, they're mostly there to scare the zerg into overproducing units and maybe kill a roach or two. I don't think you should ever be able to kill the 3rd base against a player who makes roaches, the purpose is just to force non-drones. It is acceptable for your 3rd to be placed later than theirs as long as you are keeping up on workers and being cost-effective with harass. Great thanks again Time! Alej - any luck on that 2zealot scouting idea (page 3 of this thread)? Have been using this build a lot lately, and have to say it works wonders against the early third style but still having problems scouting 2-base play. From what i can see, they can do broadly one of three things: (a) Take a later (and safer) third with roaches or roach/hydra after getting saturation at their 2-bases (b) Mutas or ling/infestor (c) 7:30 roach/ling all-in Scouting the difference between (a) and (c) I find is hard, so always prepare for the 7:30min all-in with more sentries/cannons. If it doesnt come by 8mins, then I put down my robo/TC. But doing this means I wont get a WP or observer scout until 9:30min (?). Then I can either tech colossi (if roach/hydra) or blink/HT (if muta/infestor) but its this point I struggle to decide cos I dont have enough info from scouting yet. So want to know how do you effectively scout and respond to zerg 2-base play? getting out 2 zealots is actually a really strong play and I recommend playing around with it. you will probably have to get your core a little bit later because it's a lot of minerals to spend so early, but as long as you start your core around the 5 min mark you should be able to get wg done to sync up with your additional gates. the 2 zealots will guarantee you clearing the tower(s) unless they made a bunch of speedlings, and if they made a bunch of speedlings against your ffe, theres a good chance they are trying to all in you off of 2 base with roach/bane/drop/nydus bs, so warp in sentries defensively if you have time, add cannons. your 2 sentries out of your gateway are extremely important here. don't get too greedy!
I like getting 2 zealots too, I get my cyber before 2nd zel however. The wg timing is too close to delay the core imho.
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EPT
