ive been struggling witht his build when they open reactor hellion, and chase my probe out with a marine so im blind until my zealot stalker get there. however with the timings its really awkward as its pretty much... sigh hellions go zipping by zeal and stalker, and at this point in the game i cant do much about them. Ive learned to just send my zealot ahead and leave my stalker back. but this only works as i can get a second stalker out before 2 hellions arrive and block the ramp on maps like shakuras, but even on maps like tal darim i cant seem to stop them from doing damage... is there any advice out there on this?

WolfBro

United States59 Posts

December 05 2011 12:40 GMT

#102

Thank you for the guide. I watch Axslav's stream all the time and have seen it used a lot but I never bothered to actually figure out what the build is and you definitely did a better job explaining it than I would have picked up from just watching him use it.

durr

United States148 Posts

December 22 2011 00:32 GMT

#103

so i have been using this build for about a week now and i beat most people but i have yet to stop the marine scv all in. i know that all i have to do is stop the attack and i win so pulling everyone probe may be a good idea but i feel weird about resetting the game.SOOO my question is how do i stop this all in and still be able to win the game b/c if we both lose all of our workers he will mule to get workers faster.
just found the replay in the thread my bad going to watch it now. but this one is a 5 rax and i get hit earlier but maybe it will still help

Feos

Germany71 Posts

December 28 2011 04:03 GMT

#104

all you haters should watch axslav some more. this build is very viable. i dont think a terran can really punish it if the protoss plays flawless (meaning scouting appropiately and controlling units correctly).
i just played many instances of nexus first and 1 gate fe openings on yabot.
the biggest advantages of 1 gate fe are that you are teching faster and that your first zealot/stalker are earlier
but except that the nexus first opening is superior. even if all chrono boost after the initial 2 on nexus are done on the 2 or 3 gates exclusively you end op with a better economy than 1 gate fe (i used the build with nexus @~28-30 supply because the 20 build is as "unsafe" as the nexus first build i would say?)
the greatest advantage of the nexus first build is the early 2nd nexus and the additional chronoboost you get. people underestimate this.
fact is that the first zealot is 40 to 45 sec later than in the 1 gate fe and the first stalker even almost a minute. but some of you overestimate this "vulnerability".
if the terran doesnt proxy all in or so (which he has to decide before he can see the nexus first) the only thing that would kill the nexus is if the terran succeeds to get the bunker down (which means the protoss has failed... either in control or scouting or both).
from here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400) i see the earliest timing for this marine/scv all in seems to be the 5 minute mark ( » 2 Rax • 8 marines +~15 scvs @5:05). is that right?
axslav has shown several times that it is possible to fend off such a push (there are even examples in the op).
even if they all in you always have the option to sacrifice the nexus and if you didnt lose too many probes you are quite fine.

anyway. in my opinion the nexus first opening is just harder to pull off. as described in the op the thing is that terrans arent used to that and the probability that they will all in or cheese is quite high. but i think thats a good practice ^^

and for the PF rush... the timing is about the 6 minute mark. i can see no reason why nexus first should be any more vulnerable to this than 1 gate fe. if you scout 2 rax aggression, you will make many units anyway. i never played against such a push and maybe the element of surprise will win that match but other than that i dont think so. but if the pf rush is no auto win against the 1 gate fe i wont be against nexus first neither.

i love this build and i dont understand why not more pro gamer are using it. maybe there is a way to punish this and i am just too bad (and axslav as well then ^^) and dont know about it.

sorry for that long post :D i can even upload the yabot replays but i dont claim that what i did there was the absolute truth rather than an estimation ^^

Salivanth

Australia1071 Posts

December 28 2011 05:00 GMT

#105

Think I might try this. I'm not good enough to do really well with the build, but it will definitely help my scouting and reactions, which need work. Learning this build ought to make me a better player overall.

LastLemming

United States38 Posts

December 30 2011 03:45 GMT

#106

Thanks for the guide, I have been using nexus first on every map in pvt and it has been very successful. I think the 2rax and all its variants are pretty easy to hold and scout. I watch Axslav stream sometimes, but not that much. What does he do against reactored hellions into a hellion marauder push. As far as I know reactored hellions can't be differented from the 1-1-1 until the first two hellions are scouted. Your stalkers dont have enough dps to kill the hellions before they kill all ur probes so u need to retreat up ur ramp with the probes and do some type of wall off. The hellions back off when they see the stalkers and than a push with 8ish hellions and 4 marauders come. Because of the early factory I get a robo incase he was rushing cloakshee.I dont seen to have enough gateway units to stop this push, because of the hellion count probe pulls are useless so I need to retreat up my ramp with all my units. He kills my nexus and drops his expo and I am very far behind economically. What are do you guys do against this kind of build? I was considering sim citying my natural but than i feel i would be more vulnerable to 1-1-1s and rine tank pushes.

Nickemwit

United States253 Posts

December 30 2011 03:53 GMT

#107

Axslav goes 16 nexus 17 gate now, even on smaller maps like shattered.

Mellon

Sweden917 Posts

December 30 2011 04:05 GMT

#108

I don't see how any amount of micro can make you come ahead of a 4-5-6 rax marine scv push? Even if i chrono constant stalkers and have 4 gates really quickly, so quick that i can't even do that many workers, i get absolutely crushed by any scv marine "all-in". Not even an all in since he can leave several behind and mule up and still be way ahead economically?

Feos

Germany71 Posts

December 30 2011 06:47 GMT

#109

what are you talking about? 4-5-6 rax?
did you watch all the replays/vods?

and about those hellions, i think i saw how retreat his probes up until he got some stalkers. if you have a robo, build an immortal? immortal crushs marauder and hellions...
especially check that you are doing some good sim city and beware of hellion drops

Blossom

United Kingdom87 Posts

December 30 2011 20:45 GMT

#110

TT;;

I'm having a lot of trouble with this:

I'm going nexus first and scouting 1 gas a couple of marines no lab or reactor. Then my opponent sees I have early expanded and just does a stim timing push and rapes me :/

Hm!

Feos

Germany71 Posts

December 30 2011 22:54 GMT

#111

replay?
if he got gas and no addon did he maybe proxy? by the time he has stim (he even starts the tech lab after your probe was chased away which delays the stim timing even further) his push will come later than 7 minutes. so even 1 gate fe should hold that. nexus first will crush that even harder. i suspect a scouting fail or bad control/reaction/forgot gates. :<

Recognizable

Netherlands1552 Posts

December 30 2011 23:10 GMT

#112

GOD BLESS EG.AXSLAV, GOD BLESS TEAM LIQUID.NET AND GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

Could this please... I don't want this really...

Anyway as a terran player I just kill nexus first every time with 4 rax all ins. Instead of CC i just throw down 4 rax and there seems to be nothing they can do to stop this. Is this true? Usually i'm at their base when the first stalker pops :/

bLo0d

58 Posts

December 30 2011 23:41 GMT

#113

Nvm

BADSMCGEE

United States94 Posts

December 30 2011 23:47 GMT

#114

On December 31 2011 08:10 Recognizable wrote:

Show nested quote +

There is not only a detailed description of how to hold it off...there is a replay of axslav holding it when they bring all their scvs too. You seem to be able to read because you have no trouble giving me shit about writing what i want god to bless. So what's your excuse?

Yuffie

132 Posts

December 31 2011 14:26 GMT

#115

What is the best reaction if terran scouts you first, and places a bunker or enginneering bay to prevent you from taking Nexus first? Since then, u are left with many probes , no gas and no gate ?
This happens to me often, and i also see it on whitera stream. He does attack with probes, and later on loses

cheers

Feos

Germany71 Posts

January 02 2012 03:25 GMT

#116

the scv will first come to your base. when you see it, run down with a probe and prevent anything going up
if tries, pull maybe 2 more probes and kill the scv
thats what i would do
if its alreasy too far contructed build a gate and proceed then

solidshadow

1 Post

January 03 2012 02:26 GMT

#117

How does this build hold against a 1/2 rax tech labs marauder push? I've have trouble losing if the terran skips the first marine and opts for conc shell rush and brings scvs to repair/build bunkers.

Feos

Germany71 Posts

January 03 2012 04:58 GMT

#118

did you even watch the vods/replays? :/

Feos

Germany71 Posts

January 03 2012 09:02 GMT

#119

here a vod of hero doing a nexus first opening on metalopolis and his opponent is countering with a 2 rax (i think ^^)
http://www.twitch.tv/liquidhero/b/304392027

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

January 04 2012 10:22 GMT

#120

I have a question: how do you handle a super greedy helion rush ?

I had a scout in his base, and I saw the factory *before* the first marine. I had the watchtower, and I saw two helions incoming around 5', and another two reinforcing around 6'. You don't have many stalkers at that timing, warp isn't finished yet, I'm on 1 gate robo ( since I scouted a factory ), chronoing the gate but even with 2 stalkers, one per base.. you don't have the dps to defend your probes from 2 helions each.. any idea ?

Should I drop a second gate, chrono stalkers from 2 gates and delay the robo ?