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No Axslav did not invent the Nexus First. This guide is how EG.Axslav makes nexus first a safe and strong build in PvT.
Intro:
+ Show Spoiler +Hello, my name is stevo, and i am a GM protoss on north america. Like many of you, i have seen the calculated domination displayed on EG.Axslav's stream. One of his flagship builds in the PvT matchup is a Nexus First.
Many would assume that this build is a gimmick or incredibly risky, but a crisp build order coupled with intelligent reactions makes this build absolutely safe and incredibly hard for terran to deal with.
Lucky for all of TL.net, Axslav always commentates his play and explains his decision making, so this guide is my interpretation of many games made public and explained by Nick Ranish (EG.Axslav) Big thanks to VTwhiplash for his help as well.
What maps and scenarios this build is strongest in:
+ Show Spoiler +Although Axslav uses this build on almost every map, and justifies why it's viable every time, he has stated that it is obviously much stronger and potent on certain maps. Generally, if a map is large in size, 4 players and has a defensive vantage in the natural, it is pretty safe to assume that Nexus first is a strong build.
Some maps as examples are:
Terminus
Antiga Shipyard
Tal Darim Altar
Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +Axslav's Early November Variation+ Show Spoiler +Though i have had many conversations with Axslav about this build and the safest variants of it, recently on Axslav's stream he has been experimenting with more greedy versions of the strategy which favor getting the Nexus on 16, and Gateway on 17. Every explaination, countermeasure, scouting tip, reaction and follow-up are completely unchanged by this, so when reading the explaination of the build Axslav has done in the past, and realizing that you will be going for a more greedy version, pretend the numbers fit the build you choose to do. At least some people are an expert at something right? When scouting, it's important to check watchtowers and proxy locations first. Alot of whether this build puts you way ahead or not relies on you being as greedy as you can based on what you scout. The reactions to proxy rax are much more extreme than a rax in-base build, and quite frankly, a marine comes out at around 3:09 so you aren't going to get into their base at that scout timing anyway. Might as well be 100% safe vs proxies. Depending on map and how greedy you feel like being, you can sneak a probe in at 15 supply and build gate and pylon on 16, but for the sake of a super safe BO... 15 gateResume probe productionPlease note that the 15 gate is most effective when built closer to your ramp as the rally distance is smaller and they can help defend potential aggression much easier 16 pylonAlso note that it is smart to build the 16 pylon double powering the gateway to prevent any pylon snipe tactics. After you build the 16 pylon check around your nexus thoroughly to check for sneaky bunkers building, any aggression from terran can be held as long as you prevent the bunker from getting up. If you scout a bunker building, you can safely assume that the terran is rallying his first marine, which comes out at ~3:09, to your natural in hopes of getting safety inside of the premade bunker. YOU MUST PREVENT THE BUNKER FROM FINISHING AT ALL COSTS. The sooner you scout it constructing, the more time you have to stop it and the easier the defense is. A good example of the method in which to stop this can be found at 3:30 of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299362513Instantly attack the SCV with a probe and chrono a zealot out as soon as your gateway finishes. To be super safe you can pull 3 probes to attack the scv when the marine support gets there. Microed correctly, there is no way the bunker can complete. 17 assimilatorAt this point your probe should have already scouted their location or will be arriving very soon. This is where the build branches off into several directions based on what you scout. Please refer to the next section for the reactions to each terran build.
Reactions Based on what your probe scouts:
+ Show Spoiler +First and foremost, if you get to your opponents base during the window of time where there is 1 marine at the ramp, it is always worth it to sacrifice the probe and tank the damage to get a solid read on your opponent. 1-2 Marines in nat with bunker building:This is most likely 1 rax gasless FE. In this case, Axslav spends all chrono on probes and gets a Cybernetics core before 2nd gate and 2nd gas. Then he squeezes out zealot sentry production out of his gates while chronoing probes and gets his 3rd and 4th gasses at ~5:30. Finally, he opts to get his robo ~7:00 and works into a double forge collosus tech midgame with his econ. Axslav always makes it clear that this opening from terran is the best case scenario for the T and that Nexus first puts the protoss on equal econ to a gasless FE terran only if the protoss can get a good read on the terran and feel confident spending his chronos on probes. Here is a replay of Axslav vs BeastyQT and his reaction to scouting 1 rax gasless expand. http://drop.sc/54590Keep in mind that it is always possible for the terran to be doing an elaborate fake building a bunker and hoping you assume that he's 1 rax gasless FEing and spending chrono on probes. Always be diligent about checking his marine count and always look for potential oppurtunities to sneak your probe in and confirm his expo or not. Obviously this is only a problem on certain maps. On most maps you can either scout the CC building in the Natural by sacrificing a probe or you can just see the CC building regardless. 1 marine tech lab building on rax:This can be one of a number of different things all of which have similar responses. It can be a tech lab first 2 rax (uncommon), some kind of all marauder 2rax, a 1 rax tech lab expand, or an early stim 3rax. Most of the time it will either be a 1 rax tech lab expand with an early reaper, or they will make a reaper first and scout the nexus first and reactively do a 2 or 3 rax off of the reaper pressure. Axslav makes it very clear that vs techlab openings he stays on 1 gate a little longer and chronos units out of 1 gate. He does so in this sequence: zealot, zealot, stalker stalker and gets his second gate at ~530. He says that vs a reaper first the first zealot out of the gateway is pretty useless defensively, and really early vs any obscure conc shell push that you'd scout coming at the towers anyway, so he opts to send it out onto the map to scout the towers and eventually send it to their expo to confirm the expo and get additional information. It is extremely important to diligently check for bunkers building near your natural when a tech lab is scouted. If a reaper can get in range of the nexus or workers with a bunker support it can almost instantly lose you the game. Use the zealot to scout any pushes coming or to scout if they chose to expand. If you scout a push coming or them obviously staying on 1 base, chrono units out of your 2 gateways and pull probes if needed. Understand that even if you lose several probes, your probe production capability and 2 nexuses worth of chrono boost makes any bio aggression completely all in. If you scout him doing a 1 reaper expand or any variant of 1 rax tech lab expand, chrono nothing but probes from the point that you scout it onwards until about the 7 min mark. Axslav in this case will go for his robo at ~7min...and get collosus tech and double forge upgrades in the midgame. Here's a replay of Axslav vs M.Diestar and how he responds to a tech lab opening. http://drop.sc/55566 2 marines no add on:Safe to assume it is one of 3 things: gasless 1 rax FE (CC in base), 2 rax marine scv all in or factory play. Keep your probe outside of his base constantly watching for any marines trying to move out to gain map control. Try to circle around the marine if it moves out to get scouting in. Even if nothing moves out, it is safest to save chrono and get your second gate before core. By the time the gates come up he will have moved out with his marine scv all in, so if he hasn't moved out by then it is safe to chrono probes. If it is gasless 1 rax FE, this slight economic delay won't put you behind by much, and the fact that double mules are mining from his main and the minerals are at full saturation sooner, his main will mine out faster and you will have an economic lead later on. For a detailed description of scouting and defending the 2 rax marine scv all in, see the "Nothing in natural, marines at ramp" section. So the last possibility is factory play. The key here is to chrono probes and to get your robotics facility earlier than if you're defending bio aggression. Axslav will get his at ~5:30, only having 2 gates of production supporting it. A key timing to keep in mind is that cloak will finish around 7:30, so use that as a benchmark for when your obs should be out to be safe against a cloak rush. Once you're chronoing probes and getting an earlier robo, the key is to send a stalker out to your opponents ramp and tank the shots from the marines at the top to see if you can see an expo building, or a later reactor/bunker. If you scout a bunker, you can assume it is some kind of 1/1/1 or bio all in that they're trying to mask under the guise of 1/1/1. Regardless if which it is, your goal should be to chrono out the fastest 38 probes possible, cut probes, get 5 gates and a robo, chrono out immortals and make nothing but units to defend against the impending all in. The really good news is that Nexus first is the hardest counter to 1/1/1 there is because you can chrono out the 38 probes of econ so much faster than any other build. 1 marine reactor building on rax:At this point, just assume it is reactor 2 rax. There are of course other possibilities, but none of which are dangerous to nexus first econ. If it is 1/1/1, the 2 rax response doesn't prevent you from holding it, the econ is plenty good enough to easily hold 1/1/1. In the current metagame this will probably be the most common response from terrans that haven't faced nexus first often. Axslav makes it clear that it is very important to chrono your first zeal before cybernetics core. the build will be gate, assimilator, gate zeal core. You chrono out 2 zeals out of the first gate, and the core and second gate will finish directly when the second zealot comes out. At this point, you should chrono out 2 stalkers and a standard reactor 2 rax will hit when the 2 stalkers are out. Continuously build units and squeeze in probes when you can. They will most likely pull scvs with this push, so match their scv count with probes and target the marauders down first with your stalkers. Even if you lose probes, you can produce probes way faster than they can scvs because you have 2 Nexuses and double chrono boost. If you eliminate the marauders, it becomes marines vs stalkers and that is a fight i think any toss would be happy to take. If no push has come after the stalkers have been out for about 10 seconds, send a probe along the path that a 2rax push would be coming. If the probe arrives at their natural and scouts a bunker, assume they've 2 rax expoed and go on the offensive. You should be able to just outright kill them by adding 2 gates and chronoing warpgate. If the probe arrives at an empty natural, send it up the ramp and scout whether they have a bunker or whether you see marauders. If there is no bunker, add gates, keep making probes and play defensively while scouting for hidden expansions. Most likely, this is a 3 rax or some unorthodox all in that your econ should give you an incredible advantage against. If you scout a bunker, you can assume it is some kind of 1/1/1 or bio all in that they're trying to mask under the guise of 1/1/1. Regardless if which it is, your goal should be to chrono out the fastest 38 probes possible, cut probes, get 5 gates and a robo, chrono out immortals and make nothing but units to defend against the impending all in. A textbook example of how to scout and react to reactor 2rax can be found at the 1:00:00 mark of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299183347Nothing in Natural, marines at ramp:Axslav has stated that getting perfect scouting information vs terran at this stage is very hard. However he has a make-shift system at getting as good of a read as you possibly can: when you scout where they are, leave your probe outside of their base to see if they're moving out at all. If they move out with 1 marine, try to circle around and sneak in your probe behind him to get additional information in his base. If nothing pushes out, rescout up the ramp at 3:42. If you see 1 marine, most likely it means that he is building an add-on, so prepare for aggression by getting your second gate before your core. The second gate and core should finish at almost the exact same time, so it makes it easy to chrono out 2 stalkers as soon as the core finishes to help defend against any 2 rax or 3 rax pressure If the marine pushes out, be wary of a 2 rax marine scv all in. Try to take the watchtower with your zealot or a probe to get as much warning time as possible. Holding the marine scv all in is all about chronoing out stalkers, microing well and delay tactics. Although it is extremely hard to hold, have comfort in knowing that it is possible with great play. Here is a replay of Axslav holding a 1 rax in base PROXY 3 RAX marine scv all in. http://drop.sc/54449
Replays/VODs:
+ Show Spoiler +
Why is this build so good?:
+ Show Spoiler +The best thing about this guide is that although it explains how Axslav uses this econ to secure a strong midgame, really it is just explaining how to be safe vs every terran opening and how to use this build to leverage the largest econ and strongest midgame in every situation. What does that mean? It means you can use the econ however you want, to materialize ANY midgame you want! It is just a strong, safe, economic opening that gives you unlimited options.
Most of all this build puts terran in an awkward position. If they weren't initially going for an econ oriented play (basically anything but CC first or gasless 1 rax FE) he is forced to either try some hyper aggressive play aimed to deal damage, or accept that he is just behind. Since axslav has taught us all how to deal with all the hyper aggressive plays, that leaves 1 option for the terran.
GOD BLESS EG.AXSLAV, GOD BLESS TEAM LIQUID.NET AND GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
-stevo
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Great guide, really shows Nexus first as a viable build. The hard part is obviously the scouting, and I love how this guide focuses on it. Really important to scout proxy rax!
What I've been having problems with (mid-high masters) when doing this build is hellions. Stalkers just don't kill them quickly enough, and in large number hellions even beat them! What I've been trying to do is to wall off my ramp using Gateway+Pylon, and pull probes back to main until I have enough stalkers to kill them off easy. Is this recommended at higher levels? It leaves you somewhat vurneable to bio attacks.
Also, why the spoiler tags? Much easier to read if you remove them and keep the bolded topics. Very annoying to open everyone of them.
Like I said, great guide! Keep it up!
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Hello!I'm an hig diamond player.Time ago i use this start vs terran every game,very strong...since one terran react to nex first with hellion.He go fast hellion,come very quick and destrloy all my probe in main and natural.How can i deal hellion with this start?
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A lot of protoss have done the nexus first build, one that comes to mind first would be WhiteRa, though I have never seen Axslav do it. Like you said the variation comes after the assimilator, some prefer the 4g, others go 3g robo + 2 forge, etc. What is Axslav's version (based off of scouting information or in general)?
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I still feel there are many builds that deal with this on the smaller maps.
in base reactor + tech lab rax isn't too hard to deal with but the 2nd rax proxied (happens relatively often still) can make it a lot harder. Some blind cheeses also tend to be good against this like no gas marine + scv allin.
I also believe it's not that much better economically then a 20 nexus 1 gas Huk FE. It gets the nexus about 80 secs earlier but you're also cutting probes for a fair amount of time. You also need to be much more watchful for what he's doing like if he gets a bunker or not etc. Most of the time therefore i just prefer a 1 gas Huk FE. It's much less risky as you delay your crucial decision (so you get to scout first before dropping nexus) and you are not that economically worse off. Tech and gas intake are also slightly ahead in 1 gas FE which leads to a slightly faster colo push imo which I like to follow up with often on the semi big maps.
Also some builds tend to get even against this imo, reaper expand for example often nets 2-3 kills with the reaper here and puts them even. 1 gas Huk FE is simply ahead agianst reaper expand imo as your stalker pops right when they arrive. For that reason i don't like this strat too much on maps like shakuras (reaper distance can be very short, decent chance of proxy rax) but I still love it on tal darim etc.
also nexus first beats gasless expand in economy really. When saturation isn't an issue chronoboost is a stronger eco boost then MULE's are. Usually the mere threat of aggression forces the chrono into other expenses though.
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Every time I try Nexus first I die to a 2 rax. I feel so much more comfortable with 1 gate FE :/
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Thank you for the guide.
I feel that 15 nexus is a decent choice, sure, but it does involve more risks than the standard 1-gas FE macro opening, so I have some trouble with calling it "absolute safe".
Even though you might know what the most optimal response is in a given scenario (and the guide is very good at pointing those), it doesn`t mean the build can be used risk-free, except on specific maps (ie. pocket expos). 15 nexus with a late scout will always be a bit of a gamble as it is super hard to hold blind cheeses or a well executed 2 rax regardless of how well you respond, which is why I don`t think it is that great for ladder usage. It is "possible" to hold, but not likely.
The standard 1-gas FE BO, with early scout, is used a lot more at pro level, where players will cut corners to drop the nexus earlier if scouting so permits. It is safer in the sense that you will die less to cheese/super agressive play, but it doesn`t pay off as much when it works, obviously. I am always in favor of having a build more flexible that allows better scouting, instead of taking some macro risks earlier and relying in my opponent not doing a blind counter or executing the proper response.
Again, this doesn`t mean that 15 nexus is a bad choice, it`s just that is not as safe as the current standard macro opening for PvT, so be aware.
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I've been watching his streams for the last 4 days now and it keeps impressing me how he laugh at all the 1 base terran allins that are "supposed" to counter a nexus first. I was wondering when somebody would make a guide about his nexus first play and well here it is. GJ !!
Axslav is the man!
btw. i giggle everytime he calls his units or probes "guys". :DD
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been testing this build against my teammates, and out of 10 games, he won 1 because he went 1 rax in base 4 proxy raxes, and i micro'ed it poorly.
Lower league players watch out because you will die to ALOT of stuff simply because this build will absolutely require more micro then on the terran side. Also because lower league macro tends to be a little more off, your tech buildings to defend banshee's for example, will just loose your game because you don't ahve any observer out to detect the banshee's.
I tried this back when i was in lower-mid diamond, and i got killed alot doing it. So go 1 gate FE till your macro is good enough to actually execute this build.
@Dontgiveup, a 2 rax, no matter how far he proxies the second rax into your base is EASILY fended off with probes. since you have at least a 10-12 probe lead very quickly you can sack 4-5 probes and still come ahead while he sacks a rax and an addon. I've even had a terran get 2 bunkers up and still was able to fend it off because he never got more then 1 marine in each bunker. He killed no buildings, lost 2 SCV's and 2 marines, and i lost 1 zealot.
So if your macro is crisp, then go for it. It will put you ahead against any terrans.
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On November 10 2011 11:06 Unwired wrote:
been testing this build against my teammates, and out of 10 games, he won 1 because he went 1 rax in base 4 proxy raxes, and i micro'ed it poorly.
Lower league players watch out because you will die to ALOT of stuff simply because this build will absolutely require more micro then on the terran side. Also because lower league macro tends to be a little more off, your tech buildings to defend banshee's for example, will just loose your game because you don't ahve any observer out to detect the banshee's.
I tried this back when i was in lower-mid diamond, and i got killed alot doing it. So go 1 gate FE till your macro is good enough to actually execute this build.
@Dontgiveup, a 2 rax, no matter how far he proxies the second rax into your base is EASILY fended off with probes. since you have at least a 10-12 probe lead very quickly you can sack 4-5 probes and still come ahead while he sacks a rax and an addon. I've even had a terran get 2 bunkers up and still was able to fend it off because he never got more then 1 marine in each bunker. He killed no buildings, lost 2 SCV's and 2 marines, and i lost 1 zealot.
So if your macro is crisp, then go for it. It will put you ahead against any terrans.
counting orbitals for 3-4 probes you really won't have that big a probe lead. It's very common for a 2 rax opening to come out sort of neutral against 16 nex, if the 2 rax player kills 4 probes and trades army units evenly then it's really quite even from that point onwards. The 16 nex player already cut probes to get his defences up afterall.
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Just tried this out! worked out well vs a cheesy terran
ima experiment around with this some more
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hey thanks stevo, you've been a big help
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Solid build.
Lately when I scout a nexus first vs toss I've been dropping 5rax before gas doing a little marine pressure into a fast 3rd. Because you delay tech it allows the T to get a fast 3rd. Helps make for a pretty even mid game.
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On November 10 2011 09:45 BADSMCGEE wrote:Build Order:+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon(2 chronos on probes)15 Nexus -> scoutWhen scouting, it's important to check watchtowers and proxy locations first. Alot of whether this build puts you way ahead or not relies on you being as greedy as you can based on what you scout. The reactions to proxy rax are much more extreme than a rax in-base build, and quite frankly, a marine comes out at around 3:09 so you aren't going to get into their base at that scout timing anyway. Might as well be 100% safe vs proxies. Depending on map and how greedy you feel like being, you can sneak a probe in at 15 supply and build gate and pylon on 16, but for the sake of a super safe BO... 15 gateResume probe productionPlease note that the 15 gate is most effective when built closer to your ramp as the rally distance is smaller and they can help defend potential aggression much easier 16 pylonAlso note that it is smart to build the 16 pylon double powering the gateway to prevent any pylon snipe tactics. After you build the 16 pylon check around your nexus thoroughly to check for sneaky bunkers building, any aggression from terran can be held as long as you prevent the bunker from getting up. If you scout a bunker building, you can safely assume that the terran is rallying his first marine, which comes out at ~3:09, to your natural in hopes of getting safety inside of the premade bunker. YOU MUST PREVENT THE BUNKER FROM FINISHING AT ALL COSTS. The sooner you scout it constructing, the more time you have to stop it and the easier the defense is. A good example of the method in which to stop this can be found at 3:30 of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299362513Instantly attack the SCV with a probe and chrono a zealot out as soon as your gateway finishes. To be super safe you can pull 3 probes to attack the scv when the marine support gets there. Microed correctly, there is no way the bunker can complete. 17 assimilatorAt this point your probe should have already scouted their location or will be arriving very soon. This is where the build branches off into several directions based on what you scout. Please refer to the next section for the reactions to each terran build.
This is not Axslav's build.You probably should watch the replays closer if your planning on making a guide.
I don't know how you can get 15 Nexus 15 Gateway confused with 16 Nexus 17 Gateway.
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greetings from sweden! nice build thanks for the post
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I was looking foruh recipe on doguhh and i found this good PvT strategysuh. Thank you from helped a lot
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Very insightful post, I liked the "reactions based on probe scout" section that helps a lot. I will definitely be trying this on ladder. Thanks again.
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thx for this, gonna defo try this on ladder!
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Last time i faced a nexus first in TDA i proxied factory for a thor marine scv all in... easy gg
how does one stop it, apart from scouting the proxy, ofc
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On November 10 2011 22:23 xTrim wrote:
Last time i faced a nexus first in TDA i proxied factory for a thor marine scv all in... easy gg
how does one stop it, apart from scouting the proxy, ofc
You make units. That kind of aggression vs Nexus First is really not a good idea, because he has much more money when you attack, than if he had gone 1gate FE. It really doesn't make any sense as a counter to Nexus First.
The only 2 real options terran has vs Nexus First are a really fast barracks pressure followed by an expo, try to do enough damage to his economy to even up the game, and doing a 1rax FE, which gives you about equal economy to the Protoss.
And just to be annyoingly persistant I want to remind everyone that THE BUILD LISTED IN THIS THREAD IS NOT AXSLAV'S BUILD.
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Hm what about a marine tank contain?
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On November 10 2011 12:02 Dredrick wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:45 BADSMCGEE wrote:Build Order:+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon(2 chronos on probes)15 Nexus -> scoutWhen scouting, it's important to check watchtowers and proxy locations first. Alot of whether this build puts you way ahead or not relies on you being as greedy as you can based on what you scout. The reactions to proxy rax are much more extreme than a rax in-base build, and quite frankly, a marine comes out at around 3:09 so you aren't going to get into their base at that scout timing anyway. Might as well be 100% safe vs proxies. Depending on map and how greedy you feel like being, you can sneak a probe in at 15 supply and build gate and pylon on 16, but for the sake of a super safe BO... 15 gateResume probe productionPlease note that the 15 gate is most effective when built closer to your ramp as the rally distance is smaller and they can help defend potential aggression much easier 16 pylonAlso note that it is smart to build the 16 pylon double powering the gateway to prevent any pylon snipe tactics. After you build the 16 pylon check around your nexus thoroughly to check for sneaky bunkers building, any aggression from terran can be held as long as you prevent the bunker from getting up. If you scout a bunker building, you can safely assume that the terran is rallying his first marine, which comes out at ~3:09, to your natural in hopes of getting safety inside of the premade bunker. YOU MUST PREVENT THE BUNKER FROM FINISHING AT ALL COSTS. The sooner you scout it constructing, the more time you have to stop it and the easier the defense is. A good example of the method in which to stop this can be found at 3:30 of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299362513Instantly attack the SCV with a probe and chrono a zealot out as soon as your gateway finishes. To be super safe you can pull 3 probes to attack the scv when the marine support gets there. Microed correctly, there is no way the bunker can complete. 17 assimilatorAt this point your probe should have already scouted their location or will be arriving very soon. This is where the build branches off into several directions based on what you scout. Please refer to the next section for the reactions to each terran build. This is not Axslav's build.You probably should watch the replays closer if your planning on making a guide. I don't know how you can get 15 Nexus 15 Gateway confused with 16 Nexus 17 Gateway.
he stated that he does that variation when pressure comes and I have watched his stream and can verify that 15 nexus 15 gateway is indeed what he does if one of these early pressures is coming (so he can chrono some units out of the gateway)
Great guide stevo!
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Axslav's build is closer to
16 Nexus
17 Gateway
17 Pylon (at top of ramp to help gain vision of possible bunker rush)
17 Assimilator
(squeez in another probe usually depending on scouting info)
depending on what he sees sometimes he goes EITHER
second gate on 18,
Zealot chrono'd then 20 Core, or
2nd gate/ core 19ish
then its all sort of game dependent.
the reactionary stuff OP said seems right, but the build isnt
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you have to place your first pylon and gateway at your ramp so that you can complete the wall off with a stalker in case they go reactor hellion. You will only have 1 stalker out by the time the hellions get there and if you can't wall off then you WILL lose enough probes to FOR SURE lose the game to the later marauder hellion all-in. Maybe you think I'm silly or something, but just wait for the hellions to come, 1-2 stalkers of dps can't deal with them, bye bye probes.
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On November 10 2011 10:33 SoKHo wrote:
Every time I try Nexus first I die to a 2 rax. I feel so much more comfortable with 1 gate FE :/
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On November 11 2011 01:37 Schwang wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:02 Dredrick wrote:On November 10 2011 09:45 BADSMCGEE wrote:Build Order:+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon(2 chronos on probes)15 Nexus -> scoutWhen scouting, it's important to check watchtowers and proxy locations first. Alot of whether this build puts you way ahead or not relies on you being as greedy as you can based on what you scout. The reactions to proxy rax are much more extreme than a rax in-base build, and quite frankly, a marine comes out at around 3:09 so you aren't going to get into their base at that scout timing anyway. Might as well be 100% safe vs proxies. Depending on map and how greedy you feel like being, you can sneak a probe in at 15 supply and build gate and pylon on 16, but for the sake of a super safe BO... 15 gateResume probe productionPlease note that the 15 gate is most effective when built closer to your ramp as the rally distance is smaller and they can help defend potential aggression much easier 16 pylonAlso note that it is smart to build the 16 pylon double powering the gateway to prevent any pylon snipe tactics. After you build the 16 pylon check around your nexus thoroughly to check for sneaky bunkers building, any aggression from terran can be held as long as you prevent the bunker from getting up. If you scout a bunker building, you can safely assume that the terran is rallying his first marine, which comes out at ~3:09, to your natural in hopes of getting safety inside of the premade bunker. YOU MUST PREVENT THE BUNKER FROM FINISHING AT ALL COSTS. The sooner you scout it constructing, the more time you have to stop it and the easier the defense is. A good example of the method in which to stop this can be found at 3:30 of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299362513Instantly attack the SCV with a probe and chrono a zealot out as soon as your gateway finishes. To be super safe you can pull 3 probes to attack the scv when the marine support gets there. Microed correctly, there is no way the bunker can complete. 17 assimilatorAt this point your probe should have already scouted their location or will be arriving very soon. This is where the build branches off into several directions based on what you scout. Please refer to the next section for the reactions to each terran build. This is not Axslav's build.You probably should watch the replays closer if your planning on making a guide. I don't know how you can get 15 Nexus 15 Gateway confused with 16 Nexus 17 Gateway. he stated that he does that variation when pressure comes and I have watched his stream and can verify that 15 nexus 15 gateway is indeed what he does if one of these early pressures is coming (so he can chrono some units out of the gateway) Great guide stevo!
Please try and link me to a single game in November where Axslav drops a gateway on 15 after nexus. Here's a hint, none of you can do it.
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Last time I did a Nexus first build I died to a 25 kill Reaper.. How do you deal with fast Reaper on maps like Shakuras with this build?
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i don´t think that 15 nexus is viable against a 2 rax (reactor first late orbital and little bit delayed aexpo, arriving at 6:10 with 7 marines and 2 marauder and few scvs) which is well executed (bunker to block and so on). but i hope i don´t have to play against nexus first on ladder.
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On November 11 2011 02:49 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
Last time I did a Nexus first build I died to a 25 kill Reaper.. How do you deal with fast Reaper on maps like Shakuras with this build?
You will want the fastest possible stalker as soon as you scout the techlab, which should be right away as they will not delay for a marine. Attack the reaper with 3-4 probes and mineralwalk them back when they take a hit, drones vs. bunkerrush style.
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It might not be "Axslav's Build" but he popularised it, and provided good info on how to scout for different rushes, and also how to actually fend them off. So i would call this "Axslav's extended guide to 15 nexus"
happy with that?
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Regardless of the slight variations in the build it is still a very nicely detailed guide, you've convinced me to go nexus first a lot more 
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I feel as if this build is too much of a "alright, I'll expand, and then cross my fingers" build. I mean, you can say that it's just a reactive play build order, but I really don't think that if the Terran is at all competent with all-ins that it can survive if scouted early. You better hope that they are going for early expo or for a turtle play, because if they are blind all-in'ing, you're screwed. Moreover, if they scout early and then just do hellion or banshee all-in, you're pretty ridiculously screwed. There is nothing you can do if they are going for cloaked banshees before you get your observer tech. Even in that situation, you probably don't have enough units because you sacrificed cyber tech for an early expo. So yeah I don't see how this is viable if they just scout early and all-in.
I can't speak to whether or not this is Axslav's, but I think that this build is a risk. That's not to say that it won't pay off, but I don't think that an expo-first build for the most vulnerable early-game and one base race (assuming that you're going for macro early on) should be advertised as "safe." That's all.
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Gotta love all the people posting that the build cannot hold against early all-ins when the OP posted a replay of it holding against 1 rax proxy 3 rax marine scv all in.
If a replay doesn't convince you, what would? I value proof via replay more highly than FUD-based theorycraft any day. If I can't hold versus those all-ins then it looks like the solution is to get better, not to find another build...because someone else clearly can make it work.
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On November 11 2011 05:24 Nuclease wrote:
I feel as if this build is too much of a "alright, I'll expand, and then cross my fingers" build. I mean, you can say that it's just a reactive play build order, but I really don't think that if the Terran is at all competent with all-ins that it can survive if scouted early. You better hope that they are going for early expo or for a turtle play, because if they are blind all-in'ing, you're screwed. Moreover, if they scout early and then just do hellion or banshee all-in, you're pretty ridiculously screwed. There is nothing you can do if they are going for cloaked banshees before you get your observer tech. Even in that situation, you probably don't have enough units because you sacrificed cyber tech for an early expo. So yeah I don't see how this is viable if they just scout early and all-in.
I can't speak to whether or not this is Axslav's, but I think that this build is a risk. That's not to say that it won't pay off, but I don't think that an expo-first build for the most vulnerable early-game and one base race (assuming that you're going for macro early on) should be advertised as "safe." That's all.
1. OP posted multiple replays how to deal with MANY all ins
2. i practised this build 10 times in a row against an equal skilled ( aka other master player ) Terran and he only won ONCE because i miserably mismicro'ed
3. other tech is not delayed because you can start other tech after your core is done, and since you chrono your gates instead of warp gate, everything just fits in fine. I get robo at 5:30-6:00 mins as usual, and i can adjust warp ins depending on scouting.
please stop posting any competent terran should all in this and win. Why does a zerg 15 hatch on a terran? Because it's the way the early game timings work. a terran cannot break a nexus first. period
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Are there any replays of the terran bunker rushing the natural>?
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Does anyone know how this would match up versus Debo's marine/hellion attack? He goes gas first into reactor brack, no marines before reactor, into factor. Hits with like 7-8 marines/3 hellions.
Sounds like it would be very effective vs zealot/sentry/probes. I don't think you can have a large number of stalkers yet either.
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@Unwired:
1. Among those all-ins that were posted, the ones I mentioned are not present.
2. Just because you practiced it doesn't mean that it is suddenly a winning build. The Terran could have not known how to deal with this, you could be lying, and I have tried this too and I'm speaking from personal experience.
3. Other tech is actually delayed by an early push or all-in. I was talking about teching right after a push, not right after the expo. And that is just TRUE. An early push, like a proxy, will catch you unawares or undefended often, and will delay your tech if you live through it.
Please stop misinterpreting my posts. I wasn't saying that this was an indefensible build, I was saying that it should not be advertised as "safe." I still use the build myself. I'm not knocking the build, I'm just saying it's not safe enough to be called a "safe" build. That's all.
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I think one of the biggest threats and something that should have a guide for response is
Reactor hellions from the terran.
I would imagine blocking your ramp with 2 stalkers and keeping probes in main until you can better secure the natural would be the answer
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On November 10 2011 09:45 BADSMCGEE wrote:YOU MUST PREVENT THE BUNKER FROM FINISHING AT ALL COSTS. The sooner you scout it constructing, the more time you have to stop it and the easier the defense is. A good example of the method in which to stop this can be found at 3:30 of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299362513
This link doesn't work anymore. I think it's safe to say that any twitch.tv link will probably stop working after a certain period. Maybe you could record it and reupload? Or get replays so we can see?
Good guide, nice build
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On November 11 2011 07:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I think one of the biggest threats and something that should have a guide for response is
Reactor hellions from the terran.
I would imagine blocking your ramp with 2 stalkers and keeping probes in main until you can better secure the natural would be the answer
This is the only way I've ever cracked and beat a nexus first. A random nice korean guy showed me on KR, a 3 rax 1 fac reactor hellion marine stim scv all in. I've tried it about 5 times, and if I hit the right swap timings, I haven't lost with it yet. The issue lies in scouting. Opening reactor hellion against protoss every game is a steep road to climb that pidegon holes you into a rouuuuugh mid game in my mind.
But... I haaaaaate nexus first and always tragically fail unless I do that all in.
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On November 11 2011 07:45 Fuhrmaaj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:45 BADSMCGEE wrote:YOU MUST PREVENT THE BUNKER FROM FINISHING AT ALL COSTS. The sooner you scout it constructing, the more time you have to stop it and the easier the defense is. A good example of the method in which to stop this can be found at 3:30 of this vod. http://www.twitch.tv/axslav/b/299362513 This link doesn't work anymore. I think it's safe to say that any twitch.tv link will probably stop working after a certain period. Maybe you could record it and reupload? Or get replays so we can see? Good guide, nice build
i'll get the replays ASAP. did not anticipate this problem guys sorry
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I really like this, I think the 15 nex 15 gate actually comes out with really good timing cues and feels pretty intuitive. I found that 2 probe scouts handles a lot of situations that are a danger to this opener. It seems there are a lot of miscues possible for the Terran compared to the Protoss in early game, one of them (which is really good for now) is responding aggressively to super early nexus but having it be inefficient or have some degree of indecision.
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On November 11 2011 07:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I think one of the biggest threats and something that should have a guide for response is
Reactor hellions from the terran.
I would imagine blocking your ramp with 2 stalkers and keeping probes in main until you can better secure the natural would be the answer
This would be my biggest concern as well. Especially on a map like TDA.
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After practising this build against a friend a few times, marine/scv all-ins seem to be the biggest pains in the arse to hold off - especially when he manages to deny scouting or bluffs a no-gas expo. If I don't catch the marines moving across the map with my two stalkers so I can kite them all the way to my base, I seem to simply lose too many workers in the defence which puts me unfeasibly behind, even if I end up holding it off.
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Debo has a pretty good build that destroys nexus first / 1 gate expo
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but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush?
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Great guide! I'll give this a try. It almost reminds me of how IdrA used to tell zergs to play ZvT; "always 16hatch and learn to hold the bunker rushes, eventually it'll pay off once you get good at scouting/holding them"
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I will be interested to try this, i think one of the problems with my play is that when i do the initial push and find that my opponent has done this too me, im forced to just keep attacking when i fail because i know im behind in econ.
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Been playing around wiht this and it's awesome. Thanks a lot you opened my eyes :D
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I've been trying this (on korean server, matching mainly vs diamond/low master) - and the issue im having so far is with 3rax mass marine/scv allins.. If they hit right before my collosus or storm timing, my gateway units just melt in seconds unless I hit PERFECT forcefields..
It'll take some tweaking for me I guess, but it sure works great vs everything else, or if they dont bring scvs its easy to stop.. just with scvs its a nightmare
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Stevo, you the man! This guide helped me so much and ive been doing nexus first since reading this. My winrate is surprisingly good against terran! I'm high masters league and this build is all around good! This really does work! Stevo, i love you!
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Do we have to have all that god mucking up the bottom of the OP?
Otherwise thanks a lot for putting this together. I have tried to do some of the same analysis of this build as well and this will help.
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On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush?
nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo
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On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo
the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops.
I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it!
thanks for reading the guide! =D
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Tried this a few times on ladder, So far I've been all in'd every game. marine scv, Maraine/marauder scv. Or even a marauder/marine pressure timing. One guy built a PF at the gold on Metal.
Not sure how to deal with it =\
Will keep trying.
I find that if they expand I'm in great shape though.
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On November 16 2011 12:57 Vlare wrote:
Tried this a few times on ladder, So far I've been all in'd every game. marine scv, Maraine/marauder scv. Or even a marauder/marine pressure timing. One guy built a PF at the gold on Metal.
Not sure how to deal with it =\
Will keep trying.
I find that if they expand I'm in great shape though.
You can hold it all but you absolutely need brilliant control or you'll die. Get a practice partner to rush you over and over.
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On November 16 2011 13:05 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 12:57 Vlare wrote:
Tried this a few times on ladder, So far I've been all in'd every game. marine scv, Maraine/marauder scv. Or even a marauder/marine pressure timing. One guy built a PF at the gold on Metal.
Not sure how to deal with it =\
Will keep trying.
I find that if they expand I'm in great shape though. You can hold it all but you absolutely need brilliant control or you'll die. Get a practice partner to rush you over and over.
Yeah for sure. I tried to grab a quick forge and defend with cannons but. marauders are fair so that didn't work. Im not sure how to hold it on maps like Metal =\
I guess I'll just have to practice.
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On November 16 2011 12:57 Vlare wrote:
Tried this a few times on ladder, So far I've been all in'd every game. marine scv, Maraine/marauder scv. Or even a marauder/marine pressure timing. One guy built a PF at the gold on Metal.
Not sure how to deal with it =\
Will keep trying.
I find that if they expand I'm in great shape though.
Ive been delaying cyber to get a forge first instead, then throwing down 2 well placed cannons in the nat. It puts you slightly behind in econ for a little bit, but it helps hold all ins very well, and if you hold that all in you usually win. This is at high diamond level though so take it with a grain of salt.
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Just going to add one thing. The scout needs to happen WAY earlier than 15. There are things you just won't be able to find out in time without an earlier scouting Probe. This is from experience using this build on ladder. Sending a later Probe ends up being wasteful in the end, because your Chrono can end up stagnating if you scout them last. 13 Scout seems like it would be reasonable, although 9 Scout is always fun because you can harass a little.
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This dies straight-up to a 3-rax stim conc timing. No way around it, even if your opponent has bronze league micro. Also, there is actually no way to scout the 3-rax coming, so you are basically assuming that your opponent isn't 3-raxing, and if he is, you lose.
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You can beat 3 rax if he just comes with bio, but if he brings half his SCVs along then yeah you're basically dead. It might be possible to just sac the expo and retreat up the ramp though and still be in it, as the expo has definitely paid for itself and then some at that point.
The key to beating 3 rax is to force him to make 2 marines to chase your probe away. The second marine delays the tech lab, and thus stim, by another 25 seconds which is huge. If he walls his front with depot/rax/depot so your probe can't get in you can be reasonably confident it's not a 3 rax because he can't put a tech lab on that barracks unless he moves it, and you can keep poking up with your probe to check for that, you won't lose it to one marine.
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On November 10 2011 11:57 LuckyFool wrote:
Solid build.
Lately when I scout a nexus first vs toss I've been dropping 5rax before gas doing a little marine pressure into a fast 3rd. Because you delay tech it allows the T to get a fast 3rd. Helps make for a pretty even mid game.
This is pretty much exactly what I do when I scout it and I'm going 1 rax expo as well. if i scout it on the first try, i just throw down 2 more raxes and cheese. if i scout it too late, i just expo + add 4 more raxes.
You just do a strong marine pressure with 5 rax with a couple of scvs, reduce sentry count/kill probes if possible, while you put up another CC. With the 5 rax push, depending on what build order toss used after 15 nexus/what map it is, you can even kill the toss.
imo 1 gate FE is a much better & safer than no gate expo because it makes the terran think. you can almost always prevent the terran from scouting a 1gate FE with your first stalker, where as a 15 nexus, the terran will ALWAYS know.
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I've been doing this build a long time ago and and i will let everyone know here it does not work most of the time. it has a lot of weaknesses to it. sure it can catch certain players off guard but its really risky.
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On November 16 2011 20:47 Cartel wrote:
I've been doing this build a long time ago and and i will let everyone know here it does not work most of the time. it has a lot of weaknesses to it. sure it can catch certain players off guard but its really risky.
oh, wow thanks for the expert advice!
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This is exactly how 15 nex has always been, not like he pioneered something new here..
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Can someone tell me how much nexus first eco is better than 1 gate FE eco? You seem to cut so many probes for a build that doesn't seem that superior and is much less safe; it just feels awful to me.
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On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D
I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch.
Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable?
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Great Guild! Nexus First is always really good in terms of economy. I needed a new PvT strat. Thanks bro
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On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable?
...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude?
This is a great guide. I've always found scouting and reacting to the terran pokerface to be by far the most challenging aspect of early-game PvT. There's just so many different all-ins that can come screaming out of their base at so many different timings, which all seem to need a different response. This thread clarified a lot of things.
But on that note, the marine-hellion build scares me. Has Axslav ever run into it? I tend to just lol when I see a Terran try hellions, and then one day I got rolled by that thing and kind of sat there for a minute or two wondering what happened.
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Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so obviously I'm bad, but:
I have a really hard time going Nexus first PvT. I always lose to early pressure. The most common response is a bunker rush followed by a 2 rax. I just get crushed by early Marines/Marauders (or cheese if I'm not quick enough with my robo/paying attention). Does anyone have advice for this?
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I never hear any real pro players recommend ever going nexus first. You are not zerg, your nexus does not create all you units. This is not something that is very player-friendly for the general populous. If you nexus first, and you are not in the bottom 20 of bronze, then you will just die to any attack. I've even seen some zergs pull half their drones and like 8 lings vs nexus-first forge FE and effortlessly win. I dont see how it is any different from marines + scv's vs terran.
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On November 18 2011 11:21 ishyishy wrote:
I never hear any real pro players recommend ever going nexus first. You are not zerg, your nexus does not create all you units. This is not something that is very player-friendly for the general populous. If you nexus first, and you are not in the bottom 20 of bronze, then you will just die to any attack. I've even seen some zergs pull half their drones and like 8 lings vs nexus-first forge FE and effortlessly win. I dont see how it is any different from marines + scv's vs terran.
man, i never post on TL as you can see by my post count...and i never realized why having blue posts was so neccessary...but guys like this are just hilarious. i just can't wrap my head around how some people can not take a game seriously, and not be good at a game, yet feel qualified to discount advice given by high level players...mind boggling.
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It is a fair point that you don't see it very often from the Korean P's. Is there something that makes it less viable at that level/environment, or have they just not caught on yet?
It's pretty obvious that if it's good enough for Axslav, it's good enough for pretty much everyone else.
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On November 18 2011 11:00 Xaeldaren wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so obviously I'm bad, but:
I have a really hard time going Nexus first PvT. I always lose to early pressure. The most common response is a bunker rush followed by a 2 rax. I just get crushed by early Marines/Marauders (or cheese if I'm not quick enough with my robo/paying attention). Does anyone have advice for this?
Gonna sound rough, but don't Nexus first.
Nexus first requires you to have good knowledge, and be able to make good reads on your opponent. If you feel that you can make these reads to a level like that of High Master player, then you can do it :D.
People often mistakenly call nexus first 'risky' or 'unsafe'. In reality a better description would be 'less stable' than gate first openings.
Gate first openings have a larger margin for error when it comes to making reads / defending cheese/pushes. Suggest mastering a 1-gate FE build first - as the "reads & reactions" for this build are somewhat similar to the R&R for nexus first (but not as punishing on your build-crispness & micro).
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On November 18 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
It is a fair point that you don't see it very often from the Korean P's. Is there something that makes it less viable at that level/environment, or have they just not caught on yet?
It's pretty obvious that if it's good enough for Axslav, it's good enough for pretty much everyone else.
i don't think it's a fair point at all...Nexus first is extremely common nowadays on the korean ladder and even just last night both MC and Puzzle both went nexus first in matches that determine their fate for the season.
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On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude?
Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer.
Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first.
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I played 4 games with a High master friend with this very build last night.
I attempted to 2 rax the build 2 times and failed miserably both times with ADROIT micro. Granted, we were in cross positions both games, but the map was not large.
This build makes me T.T all over the place as high master gm Terran. My only response in game 4 was to double expand, which allowed me to win, but this may well have been only because I was a better player and over time I made better decisions, better macro, micro etc.
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On November 18 2011 12:40 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude? Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer. Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first.
Dude, axslav has defended this pressure SO MANY times, there is your proof. Now for the theory crafting, it's completely true! 1gate will be better at holding cheese in the <7m mark, but after that you should have MORE units with nexus first as your economy starts to stabilize.
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Terran here. I do a Two-Rax (12/14) Gasless FE. It's usually defensive because I use Syntstyr's Anti-Collosus Build.
Someone tried this Nexus first against me on the ladder tonight. We spawned in Cross Positions of Shukuras so it should be the best place to use this build. At first I was like "WTF" then I just grabbed my rines, grabbed two SCVs, built a bunker at his natural and crushed it. EZ. I can post the replay if anyone wants it.
I guess this build requires you to micro REALLY well.
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On November 18 2011 14:23 pezzaperry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 12:40 Keilah wrote:On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude? Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer. Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first. Dude, axslav has defended this pressure SO MANY times, there is your proof. Now for the theory crafting, it's completely true! 1gate will be better at holding cheese in the <7m mark, but after that you should have MORE units with nexus first as your economy starts to stabilize.
I think you are confused... axslav has defended a planetary fortress rush 'so many times'? I would be surprised if that's true.
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On November 18 2011 15:15 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 14:23 pezzaperry wrote:On November 18 2011 12:40 Keilah wrote:On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude? Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer. Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first. Dude, axslav has defended this pressure SO MANY times, there is your proof. Now for the theory crafting, it's completely true! 1gate will be better at holding cheese in the <7m mark, but after that you should have MORE units with nexus first as your economy starts to stabilize. I think you are confused... axslav has defended a planetary fortress rush 'so many times'? I would be surprised if that's true.
wait.. you're suggesting a pf rush will counter this build? wtf. Okay even if it does (i am doubtful), no one will do that on ladder, so the build is still good... -.-
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On November 18 2011 22:32 Sated wrote:
How to defend a PF rush:
- See a CC floating near your base.
- Put a probe under it.
- The CC can't land.
- Congratulations, you just won the game.
Not if they have units ^_^
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On November 18 2011 22:49 pezzaperry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 22:32 Sated wrote:
How to defend a PF rush:
- See a CC floating near your base.
- Put a probe under it.
- The CC can't land.
- Congratulations, you just won the game. Not if they have units ^_^
I'm pretty noob, but someone explain to me why a nexus first would be weaker to a 7min timing than a 1g expo? Is anyone really making the claim that a 1g expo can hold a 2rax PF rush, but a Nexus first can't? There is only a small timing window between when the nexus is built and the gateways finish that a nexus first is weaker to a timing than a 1g expo...then it swings astronomically in the favor of nexus first.
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On November 18 2011 15:01 Ripps wrote:
Terran here. I do a Two-Rax (12/14) Gasless FE. It's usually defensive because I use Syntstyr's Anti-Collosus Build.
Someone tried this Nexus first against me on the ladder tonight. We spawned in Cross Positions of Shukuras so it should be the best place to use this build. At first I was like "WTF" then I just grabbed my rines, grabbed two SCVs, built a bunker at his natural and crushed it. EZ. I can post the replay if anyone wants it.
I guess this build requires you to micro REALLY well.
Dude didn't play it well and also Shak is not the best map to do it on since the only 2 possible spawns are right next to each other. A 13 scout can get to his base with ample time to react. The guide here specifically says to scout around the nexus for a bunker; I bet your opponent didn't do that, or if he did, didn't bring enough probes to defend. I wouldn't post the replay, it will be shredded.
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On November 18 2011 15:15 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 14:23 pezzaperry wrote:On November 18 2011 12:40 Keilah wrote:On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude? Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer. Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first. Dude, axslav has defended this pressure SO MANY times, there is your proof. Now for the theory crafting, it's completely true! 1gate will be better at holding cheese in the <7m mark, but after that you should have MORE units with nexus first as your economy starts to stabilize. I think you are confused... axslav has defended a planetary fortress rush 'so many times'? I would be surprised if that's true.
Just stop the trolling with the pf rush...
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Started using this build today, and started holding 1/1/1 builds vs terran ridiculously easily! Thank you
The one game I lost was when a superfast reaper got into my main on Shakuras, so i echo what the earlier poster said about it being tricky on maps like that.
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On November 18 2011 15:15 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 14:23 pezzaperry wrote:On November 18 2011 12:40 Keilah wrote:On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude? Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer. Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first. Dude, axslav has defended this pressure SO MANY times, there is your proof. Now for the theory crafting, it's completely true! 1gate will be better at holding cheese in the <7m mark, but after that you should have MORE units with nexus first as your economy starts to stabilize. I think you are confused... axslav has defended a planetary fortress rush 'so many times'? I would be surprised if that's true.
lol pf rushes are terrible. they rely on your oppoent fucking up hard or having 500ms of lag. 1 probe under the cc and your screwed. the poster u quoted is saying that the nex first can defend the normal 2 rax pressure fine, and since a cc builds as fast as a carrier, moves as fast as a overlord and costs 400 mins + ebay for a pf, your unit count is going to suffer or your timing is going to be delayed. therefore the pressure would be alot easier to hold off. even if u do manage to get the cc down, you still have to account for build time where the protoss can crush your army and then kill your pf or just baserace and win.
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On November 10 2011 22:23 xTrim wrote:
Last time i faced a nexus first in TDA i proxied factory for a thor marine scv all in... easy gg
how does one stop it, apart from scouting the proxy, ofc
Proxy factory and tech to thor? what league are you in
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On November 20 2011 19:14 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:23 xTrim wrote:
Last time i faced a nexus first in TDA i proxied factory for a thor marine scv all in... easy gg
how does one stop it, apart from scouting the proxy, ofc Proxy factory and tech to thor? what league are you in
That build was strong as crap before the repairing SCV nerf. Now zealots clean it up pretty nicely.
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K this is the last time I'll post, but you guys are all missing on something good by dismissing it out of hand instead of actually trying it.
re: how can it work, nex first after 7min >> 1gate nexus?
-hit before 7min of course
re: probe stops CC from landing, lol ezpz gg
-don't be ridiculous, obviously the terran mm/scvs will kill your probe(s). Normally when facing 2rax you need to let the terran hit your nexus for a while, warp in a round or two of units, then surround with probes + units. In the period where you're waiting for warpins, he can safely land CC. And if the PF goes up, nothing toss has this early is going to scratch it.
re: nexus first can hold 2rax, if you make a CC and ebay your 2rax will be even weaker
-not really. You can afford to build units from your two barracks, proxy a CC, and build an ebay that completes shortly after the CC, all without cutting unit production. 2rax is normally expanding around the time it moves out anyways. Just proxy the CC instead of making it at your natural.
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On November 21 2011 08:19 Keilah wrote:
K this is the last time I'll post, but you guys are all missing on something good by dismissing it out of hand instead of actually trying it.
re: how can it work, nex first after 7min >> 1gate nexus?
-hit before 7min of course
re: probe stops CC from landing, lol ezpz gg
-don't be ridiculous, obviously the terran mm/scvs will kill your probe(s). Normally when facing 2rax you need to let the terran hit your nexus for a while, warp in a round or two of units, then surround with probes + units. In the period where you're waiting for warpins, he can safely land CC. And if the PF goes up, nothing toss has this early is going to scratch it.
re: nexus first can hold 2rax, if you make a CC and ebay your 2rax will be even weaker
-not really. You can afford to build units from your two barracks, proxy a CC, and build an ebay that completes shortly after the CC, all without cutting unit production. 2rax is normally expanding around the time it moves out anyways. Just proxy the CC instead of making it at your natural.
? why don't you try it and post a replay. I can't see a "PF rush" ever working honestly. That thing flies wayyy too slowly to ever land. I've never had to have my Nexus take hits versus 2rax, unless taken completely by surpise.
You're assuming the 2rax will kill everything protoss has AND his probes. There's no way you could land a CC if all the probes weren't killed.
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just practiced for like 2hrs doing only this build with my clan mate, lost to every single time he did scv marine allin (like 5-7times) other than that its not hard to defend anything else..
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On November 21 2011 20:55 iNkopwnz wrote:
just practiced for like 2hrs doing only this build with my clan mate, lost to every single time he did scv marine allin (like 5-7times) other than that its not hard to defend anything else..
yeah man its definitely tricky. Takes a lot of micro/delay tactics...but refer to the replays of Axslav holding it if you want!
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Tried this yesterday with great success... Very good build for bigger maps for sure.
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It's so frustrating to play against this build in the hands of a good player ><
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I hate seeing nex first. Not really sure whta to do to counter it anymore. Used to 4rax marine scv all in (as dumb as it is) just because I hated going in to a game being behind. You can't play too greedy cause protoss has some timings after a nex first they can abuse and then you can't play passive of course. I'm gonna try luckyfool's advice next time.
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ive been struggling witht his build when they open reactor hellion, and chase my probe out with a marine so im blind until my zealot stalker get there. however with the timings its really awkward as its pretty much... sigh hellions go zipping by zeal and stalker, and at this point in the game i cant do much about them. Ive learned to just send my zealot ahead and leave my stalker back. but this only works as i can get a second stalker out before 2 hellions arrive and block the ramp on maps like shakuras, but even on maps like tal darim i cant seem to stop them from doing damage... is there any advice out there on this?
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Thank you for the guide. I watch Axslav's stream all the time and have seen it used a lot but I never bothered to actually figure out what the build is and you definitely did a better job explaining it than I would have picked up from just watching him use it.
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so i have been using this build for about a week now and i beat most people but i have yet to stop the marine scv all in. i know that all i have to do is stop the attack and i win so pulling everyone probe may be a good idea but i feel weird about resetting the game.SOOO my question is how do i stop this all in and still be able to win the game b/c if we both lose all of our workers he will mule to get workers faster.
just found the replay in the thread my bad going to watch it now. but this one is a 5 rax and i get hit earlier but maybe it will still help
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all you haters should watch axslav some more. this build is very viable. i dont think a terran can really punish it if the protoss plays flawless (meaning scouting appropiately and controlling units correctly).
i just played many instances of nexus first and 1 gate fe openings on yabot.
the biggest advantages of 1 gate fe are that you are teching faster and that your first zealot/stalker are earlier
but except that the nexus first opening is superior. even if all chrono boost after the initial 2 on nexus are done on the 2 or 3 gates exclusively you end op with a better economy than 1 gate fe (i used the build with nexus @~28-30 supply because the 20 build is as "unsafe" as the nexus first build i would say?)
the greatest advantage of the nexus first build is the early 2nd nexus and the additional chronoboost you get. people underestimate this.
fact is that the first zealot is 40 to 45 sec later than in the 1 gate fe and the first stalker even almost a minute. but some of you overestimate this "vulnerability".
if the terran doesnt proxy all in or so (which he has to decide before he can see the nexus first) the only thing that would kill the nexus is if the terran succeeds to get the bunker down (which means the protoss has failed... either in control or scouting or both).
from here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400) i see the earliest timing for this marine/scv all in seems to be the 5 minute mark ( » 2 Rax • 8 marines +~15 scvs @5:05). is that right?
axslav has shown several times that it is possible to fend off such a push (there are even examples in the op).
even if they all in you always have the option to sacrifice the nexus and if you didnt lose too many probes you are quite fine.
anyway. in my opinion the nexus first opening is just harder to pull off. as described in the op the thing is that terrans arent used to that and the probability that they will all in or cheese is quite high. but i think thats a good practice ^^
and for the PF rush... the timing is about the 6 minute mark. i can see no reason why nexus first should be any more vulnerable to this than 1 gate fe. if you scout 2 rax aggression, you will make many units anyway. i never played against such a push and maybe the element of surprise will win that match but other than that i dont think so. but if the pf rush is no auto win against the 1 gate fe i wont be against nexus first neither.
i love this build and i dont understand why not more pro gamer are using it. maybe there is a way to punish this and i am just too bad (and axslav as well then ^^) and dont know about it.
sorry for that long post :D i can even upload the yabot replays but i dont claim that what i did there was the absolute truth rather than an estimation ^^
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Think I might try this. I'm not good enough to do really well with the build, but it will definitely help my scouting and reactions, which need work. Learning this build ought to make me a better player overall.
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Thanks for the guide, I have been using nexus first on every map in pvt and it has been very successful. I think the 2rax and all its variants are pretty easy to hold and scout. I watch Axslav stream sometimes, but not that much. What does he do against reactored hellions into a hellion marauder push. As far as I know reactored hellions can't be differented from the 1-1-1 until the first two hellions are scouted. Your stalkers dont have enough dps to kill the hellions before they kill all ur probes so u need to retreat up ur ramp with the probes and do some type of wall off. The hellions back off when they see the stalkers and than a push with 8ish hellions and 4 marauders come. Because of the early factory I get a robo incase he was rushing cloakshee.I dont seen to have enough gateway units to stop this push, because of the hellion count probe pulls are useless so I need to retreat up my ramp with all my units. He kills my nexus and drops his expo and I am very far behind economically. What are do you guys do against this kind of build? I was considering sim citying my natural but than i feel i would be more vulnerable to 1-1-1s and rine tank pushes.
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Axslav goes 16 nexus 17 gate now, even on smaller maps like shattered.
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I don't see how any amount of micro can make you come ahead of a 4-5-6 rax marine scv push? Even if i chrono constant stalkers and have 4 gates really quickly, so quick that i can't even do that many workers, i get absolutely crushed by any scv marine "all-in". Not even an all in since he can leave several behind and mule up and still be way ahead economically?
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what are you talking about? 4-5-6 rax?
did you watch all the replays/vods?
and about those hellions, i think i saw how retreat his probes up until he got some stalkers. if you have a robo, build an immortal? immortal crushs marauder and hellions...
especially check that you are doing some good sim city and beware of hellion drops
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TT;;
I'm having a lot of trouble with this:
I'm going nexus first and scouting 1 gas a couple of marines no lab or reactor. Then my opponent sees I have early expanded and just does a stim timing push and rapes me :/
Hm!
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replay?
if he got gas and no addon did he maybe proxy? by the time he has stim (he even starts the tech lab after your probe was chased away which delays the stim timing even further) his push will come later than 7 minutes. so even 1 gate fe should hold that. nexus first will crush that even harder. i suspect a scouting fail or bad control/reaction/forgot gates. :<
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GOD BLESS EG.AXSLAV, GOD BLESS TEAM LIQUID.NET AND GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
Could this please... I don't want this really...
Anyway as a terran player I just kill nexus first every time with 4 rax all ins. Instead of CC i just throw down 4 rax and there seems to be nothing they can do to stop this. Is this true? Usually i'm at their base when the first stalker pops :/
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On December 31 2011 08:10 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +GOD BLESS EG.AXSLAV, GOD BLESS TEAM LIQUID.NET AND GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
Could this please... I don't want this really... Anyway as a terran player I just kill nexus first every time with 4 rax all ins. Instead of CC i just throw down 4 rax and there seems to be nothing they can do to stop this. Is this true? Usually i'm at their base when the first stalker pops :/
There is not only a detailed description of how to hold it off...there is a replay of axslav holding it when they bring all their scvs too. You seem to be able to read because you have no trouble giving me shit about writing what i want god to bless. So what's your excuse?
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What is the best reaction if terran scouts you first, and places a bunker or enginneering bay to prevent you from taking Nexus first? Since then, u are left with many probes , no gas and no gate ?
This happens to me often, and i also see it on whitera stream. He does attack with probes, and later on loses 
cheers
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the scv will first come to your base. when you see it, run down with a probe and prevent anything going up
if tries, pull maybe 2 more probes and kill the scv
thats what i would do
if its alreasy too far contructed build a gate and proceed then
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How does this build hold against a 1/2 rax tech labs marauder push? I've have trouble losing if the terran skips the first marine and opts for conc shell rush and brings scvs to repair/build bunkers.
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did you even watch the vods/replays? :/
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I have a question: how do you handle a super greedy helion rush ?
I had a scout in his base, and I saw the factory *before* the first marine. I had the watchtower, and I saw two helions incoming around 5', and another two reinforcing around 6'. You don't have many stalkers at that timing, warp isn't finished yet, I'm on 1 gate robo ( since I scouted a factory ), chronoing the gate but even with 2 stalkers, one per base.. you don't have the dps to defend your probes from 2 helions each.. any idea ?
Should I drop a second gate, chrono stalkers from 2 gates and delay the robo ?
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On January 04 2012 19:22 Nyast wrote:
I have a question: how do you handle a super greedy helion rush ?
I had a scout in his base, and I saw the factory *before* the first marine. I had the watchtower, and I saw two helions incoming around 5', and another two reinforcing around 6'. You don't have many stalkers at that timing, warp isn't finished yet, I'm on 1 gate robo ( since I scouted a factory ), chronoing the gate but even with 2 stalkers, one per base.. you don't have the dps to defend your probes from 2 helions each.. any idea ?
Should I drop a second gate, chrono stalkers from 2 gates and delay the robo ?
depending on the map you could either use a choke outside of your natural to sim city, or just use the two stalkers to block your ramp and delay mining from your natural until you have more units
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The map in question was Tal'D'arim, so.. no ramp
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On January 04 2012 19:58 Nyast wrote:The map in question was Tal'D'arim, so.. no ramp
yeah thats the worst one for it. one pylon in the choke makes it hellion proof if you put your stalkers there i think.
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so how do you differentiate from 2rax pressure expo; vs 3rax marauder/marine scv all-in ?
i think 3rax+all scv pull will beat this build all the time wont it
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define "beat"
first of all: by the time such an all in hits, the nexus will have paid off and your eco will be superior to 1 gate fe. so essentially you are saying a 3rax/scv all in will beat 1 gate fe... if that was so, i believe 1 gate fe wouldnt be used that often.
even if the terran pulls off his scvs you always have the option to sac the expansion and pull the probes into the main.
then wait for immortals/more wg cycles and crush his force if he decided to try a contain.
as long as you keep the probes, you wont be behind
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On January 04 2012 19:34 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 19:22 Nyast wrote:
I have a question: how do you handle a super greedy helion rush ?
I had a scout in his base, and I saw the factory *before* the first marine. I had the watchtower, and I saw two helions incoming around 5', and another two reinforcing around 6'. You don't have many stalkers at that timing, warp isn't finished yet, I'm on 1 gate robo ( since I scouted a factory ), chronoing the gate but even with 2 stalkers, one per base.. you don't have the dps to defend your probes from 2 helions each.. any idea ?
Should I drop a second gate, chrono stalkers from 2 gates and delay the robo ?
depending on the map you could either use a choke outside of your natural to sim city, or just use the two stalkers to block your ramp and delay mining from your natural until you have more units
Is it the same principal when the terran drops hellions in your main? Choke off at your natural, try to get all the probes to your main to try and minimize damage?
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I remember some GSL games where the T reacted to nexus first with reactor hellion plus proxy banshees and have no idea how the protoss could have stopped it. The problem is if you go for a gassless expand, you obviously cannot do this build upon scouting a nexus first.
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On January 17 2012 04:54 Sceptre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 19:34 FrankWalls wrote:On January 04 2012 19:22 Nyast wrote:
I have a question: how do you handle a super greedy helion rush ?
I had a scout in his base, and I saw the factory *before* the first marine. I had the watchtower, and I saw two helions incoming around 5', and another two reinforcing around 6'. You don't have many stalkers at that timing, warp isn't finished yet, I'm on 1 gate robo ( since I scouted a factory ), chronoing the gate but even with 2 stalkers, one per base.. you don't have the dps to defend your probes from 2 helions each.. any idea ?
Should I drop a second gate, chrono stalkers from 2 gates and delay the robo ?
depending on the map you could either use a choke outside of your natural to sim city, or just use the two stalkers to block your ramp and delay mining from your natural until you have more units Is it the same principal when the terran drops hellions in your main? Choke off at your natural, try to get all the probes to your main to try and minimize damage?
if you suspect that or see the hellions coming at the front and you know that you will lose less probes by putting them all in your main then i would suggest doing that every time. it depends on situation. if its a surprise then the best i can say is to split your forces and multitask the best that you can
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Anyone have some good replays where you hit nice transitions with this?
Want to see more possibilities=)
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I'll remember to save the reps the next time I play with this and put them here for more transitions.
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On January 22 2012 02:56 Axslav wrote:
I'll remember to save the reps the next time I play with this and put them here for more transitions.
Awesome! Why don't you release a replay pack with many different builds executed the way you intended them?=)
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On January 22 2012 02:56 Axslav wrote:
I'll remember to save the reps the next time I play with this and put them here for more transitions.
That is amazingly generous of you. I will be checking this thread often hoping this happens.
Thank you! You are obviously a kind person to share like that.
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United Kingdom20277 Posts
On January 22 2012 02:56 Axslav wrote:
I'll remember to save the reps the next time I play with this and put them here for more transitions.
Thanks (:
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Here's a few games: http://drop.sc/packs/467
Many of the games are with a slightly different opening (no 2nd gate until later) that i'm looking into, but the transitions after your nexus is set up should all still apply.
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here's a good example of an aggressive transition out of a nexus first (cut probes at 30 5 gate). If the terran only has 1 bunker and is caught off guard it can win games outright.
http://drop.sc/97237
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How do you react when you get observer and you see 1/1/1?
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go up to 6-7 gates, stay on 2 gas with 38 total probes and crank out units/immortals
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<3 Thanks for the contribution Axslav! And thanks OP
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What's the correct response vs Marauder/Hellion?
2 Hellions, 5 Marauders, X SCVs hitting right before 7 minutes. Walling is just silly, since Marauders feast on anything with armor.
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The best scenario would be to have 3-4 stalkers outside his ramp to kite and whittle down his unit while making a lot of zealots. Obviously having 2 sentries and perfect forcefields would be best. And early game Hellions actually need a ton of hits on the zealots to kill them, so it's not that bad if chrono out units.
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Having trouble doing this build on Tal'Darim of all maps for some reasons. The Terran will build a bunker in that spot at the nat where the scv often gets stuck in a spot where you cant hit him. He comes with 2 scvs, 2 marines and more marines rallied, and at this point I only have a zealot and my probes to fight with, with my stalker on the way. Usually I cant kill both scvs without the bunker finishing and then I lose like 5+ probes in the small bunker rush. The Terran then follows this up with 2-4 hellions which just wreck my probe line. Had a game where 2 hellions got 9 kills before I could stop them. At this point the game is basically over as he has plenty of marines, siege mode and cloak done, with a raven and then pulls half his scvs and slowly kills me with a siege contain. You lose the nat pretty quickly as you cant fight them in the middle of the map (army still too weak to fight head on) and they can just siege the low ground. If I lose that many probes early game going nexus first should I just gg out?
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On January 26 2012 02:07 Dauntless wrote:
What's the correct response vs Marauder/Hellion?
2 Hellions, 5 Marauders, X SCVs hitting right before 7 minutes. Walling is just silly, since Marauders feast on anything with armor.
you should have 5 gateway units out at this point, just pull a few probes to help and a-move. Marine/hellion is much harder to stop because marines kill buildings at the same rate as marauders assuming there are twice as many and also marines kill probes/zealots much more effectively. Vs both these builds try to stall as long as you can without losing your nexus before you engage.
Probes aren't that bad vs hellions as long as you don't line them up, try to use the probes to surround the marauders and focus the hellion with stalkers whenever they're in range.
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On January 28 2012 20:52 -YoricK- wrote:
Having trouble doing this build on Tal'Darim of all maps for some reasons. The Terran will build a bunker in that spot at the nat where the scv often gets stuck in a spot where you cant hit him. He comes with 2 scvs, 2 marines and more marines rallied, and at this point I only have a zealot and my probes to fight with, with my stalker on the way. Usually I cant kill both scvs without the bunker finishing and then I lose like 5+ probes in the small bunker rush. The Terran then follows this up with 2-4 hellions which just wreck my probe line. Had a game where 2 hellions got 9 kills before I could stop them. At this point the game is basically over as he has plenty of marines, siege mode and cloak done, with a raven and then pulls half his scvs and slowly kills me with a siege contain. You lose the nat pretty quickly as you cant fight them in the middle of the map (army still too weak to fight head on) and they can just siege the low ground. If I lose that many probes early game going nexus first should I just gg out?
You need to see the marines coming and meet them in front of your expansion with 4 probes per marine+1-2 per scv. This should make it much easier to hold this. Use your 2nd pylon and 2nd gateway to narrow the choke between your main and natural down to 1 space which you can block with a stalker and keep all your probes in your main until you feel comfortable defending hellions at your nat.
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this build is great as long as terran doesnt open up with hellions. Not impossible to hold but it will take good micro to survive and not loose alot of probes while doing it.
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I hope its not bad that i bump this thread...but i just jumped into axslavs stream, and he is doing nexus first..then forge and after the forge gateway. But he only places down cannons when he scouts 1base terran i suspect (but so far only seeing terran gasless expand in wich case he would sometimes cancel the forge..or decide to keep it for upgrades).
Anyone can give some more information on how you would defend 1base agression with cannons? or have replays? It looks kind of intresting :D
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you can only do a FE expand then forge against a Terran that you know 100% that a Terran has not got the gas.. if he has then you have to go gateway after nexus, The reason forge has become popular is because if you scout no expansion you can throw up 2 cannons and be perfectly safe against a 5-6rax all-in.
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On May 23 2012 04:44 Xenocide_EU wrote:
I hope its not bad that i bump this thread...but i just jumped into axslavs stream, and he is doing nexus first..then forge and after the forge gateway. But he only places down cannons when he scouts 1base terran i suspect (but so far only seeing terran gasless expand in wich case he would sometimes cancel the forge..or decide to keep it for upgrades).
Anyone can give some more information on how you would defend 1base agression with cannons? or have replays? It looks kind of intresting :D
The idea behind the Nexus Forge expand (which, notably, has been VERY popular in Korea), is that it VERY strongly counters any kind of gasless play. Against Nexus Gate, the Terran has the option after scouting the fast Nexus to rally his Marines over and try to Bunker rush, which can be potent depending on map, positions, and the exact Protoss BO. The single cannon stops any such plan dead in its tracks, and the Forge can then be used for a stupidly fast +1 armor timing. Similarly, Marine all-ins (2-3Rax) are stopped with extra Cannons and Probe pull. So, in general, it is a very robust and secure economic opener, not unlike the Terran Gasless FE. The weaknesses of Nexus Forge play are to gas openers. The first Obs pops without much time to spare in order to stop cloaked Banshees, Hellion play proves to be very strong, and elevator attacks can often end it. All these can be held off, though, it just requires good scouting, game sense, and control from the Protoss player. It's not like trying to hold off proxy 2rax with a Nexus Gate expand (actually impossible, last I checked), which is why Koreans have started to make this build a standard opener on the level of MC's 1gate Expand.
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This build is auto-loss against the 2 rax marauder opening, which is why now tosses tend to get a forge and cannon after the nexus.
3 marauders + 1 marine with 2 more reinforcing arrive at the protoss natural around ~5:30. With concussive shell I just snipe stalkers and kite the zealots for free. 3 marauders/1 marine when micro'ed beats even 2 stalkers/2 zealots (every chrono on gateway after nexus still only gets out 2 stalkers/1 zealot at ~5:30), easily.
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I have to say that I watch Axslav quite a bit, and I noticed:
- He gets a gate THEN a forge (without cutting any probes). It's really safe, you can have cannons up in time for early aggression. Plus you get your warpgate earlier.
- He always makes a cannon, adds more if he smells something fishy.
- On most maps he does it with a 15 scout (meaning he doesn't care about T opening). The only map where he never does it is Tal Darim, because of a possibility of bunker+reaper.
I copied his style, and at my level (diamond), 80% of Ts try to rush and fail, the rest cut too many corners and die against my 7 gates or fast colo. A very good opening that replaced 1 gate expand for me.
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Is this build still viable? I've ducked out of the meta-game for awhile so I'm not sure where it is so I can't be so sure a build from last November is still good.
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Still good as far as I've seen, just be really, really careful if you spot gas. I've been going reapers(just 1 or 2 to probe harass someone who goes forge variation), 4 hellions straight, or 4 hellion medivac and it just WRECKS some protosses who get too greedy.
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On May 23 2012 09:26 EngrishTeacher wrote:
This build is auto-loss against the 2 rax marauder opening, which is why now tosses tend to get a forge and cannon after the nexus.
3 marauders + 1 marine with 2 more reinforcing arrive at the protoss natural around ~5:30. With concussive shell I just snipe stalkers and kite the zealots for free. 3 marauders/1 marine when micro'ed beats even 2 stalkers/2 zealots (every chrono on gateway after nexus still only gets out 2 stalkers/1 zealot at ~5:30), easily.
What about the worker pull though? If done right, your still behind because the toss has 2 nexi and chrono boost.
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Today I did this build and lost. The Terran did a tanks all-in, by proxying his factory next to my natural. He pulled all his scvs.. the rush came at 7'30. No idea how to hold it.
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On May 28 2012 03:07 Nyast wrote:
Today I did this build and lost. The Terran did a tanks all-in, by proxying his factory next to my natural. He pulled all his scvs.. the rush came at 7'30. No idea how to hold it.
There are several terran all-ins that are nigh impossible to hold. We just have to pray they don't do them.
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EPT
