The best scenario would be to have 3-4 stalkers outside his ramp to kite and whittle down his unit while making a lot of zealots. Obviously having 2 sentries and perfect forcefields would be best. And early game Hellions actually need a ton of hits on the zealots to kill them, so it's not that bad if chrono out units.

-YoricK-

United States477 Posts

January 28 2012 11:52 GMT

#143

Having trouble doing this build on Tal'Darim of all maps for some reasons. The Terran will build a bunker in that spot at the nat where the scv often gets stuck in a spot where you cant hit him. He comes with 2 scvs, 2 marines and more marines rallied, and at this point I only have a zealot and my probes to fight with, with my stalker on the way. Usually I cant kill both scvs without the bunker finishing and then I lose like 5+ probes in the small bunker rush. The Terran then follows this up with 2-4 hellions which just wreck my probe line. Had a game where 2 hellions got 9 kills before I could stop them. At this point the game is basically over as he has plenty of marines, siege mode and cloak done, with a raven and then pulls half his scvs and slowly kills me with a siege contain. You lose the nat pretty quickly as you cant fight them in the middle of the map (army still too weak to fight head on) and they can just siege the low ground. If I lose that many probes early game going nexus first should I just gg out?

iS.Axslav

United States248 Posts

February 05 2012 18:41 GMT

#144

On January 26 2012 02:07 Dauntless wrote:
What's the correct response vs Marauder/Hellion?
2 Hellions, 5 Marauders, X SCVs hitting right before 7 minutes. Walling is just silly, since Marauders feast on anything with armor.

you should have 5 gateway units out at this point, just pull a few probes to help and a-move. Marine/hellion is much harder to stop because marines kill buildings at the same rate as marauders assuming there are twice as many and also marines kill probes/zealots much more effectively. Vs both these builds try to stall as long as you can without losing your nexus before you engage.

Probes aren't that bad vs hellions as long as you don't line them up, try to use the probes to surround the marauders and focus the hellion with stalkers whenever they're in range.

iS.Axslav

United States248 Posts

February 05 2012 18:44 GMT

#145

On January 28 2012 20:52 -YoricK- wrote:
Having trouble doing this build on Tal'Darim of all maps for some reasons. The Terran will build a bunker in that spot at the nat where the scv often gets stuck in a spot where you cant hit him. He comes with 2 scvs, 2 marines and more marines rallied, and at this point I only have a zealot and my probes to fight with, with my stalker on the way. Usually I cant kill both scvs without the bunker finishing and then I lose like 5+ probes in the small bunker rush. The Terran then follows this up with 2-4 hellions which just wreck my probe line. Had a game where 2 hellions got 9 kills before I could stop them. At this point the game is basically over as he has plenty of marines, siege mode and cloak done, with a raven and then pulls half his scvs and slowly kills me with a siege contain. You lose the nat pretty quickly as you cant fight them in the middle of the map (army still too weak to fight head on) and they can just siege the low ground. If I lose that many probes early game going nexus first should I just gg out?

You need to see the marines coming and meet them in front of your expansion with 4 probes per marine+1-2 per scv. This should make it much easier to hold this. Use your 2nd pylon and 2nd gateway to narrow the choke between your main and natural down to 1 space which you can block with a stalker and keep all your probes in your main until you feel comfortable defending hellions at your nat.

belatube

United States27 Posts

February 05 2012 20:20 GMT

#146

this build is great as long as terran doesnt open up with hellions. Not impossible to hold but it will take good micro to survive and not loose alot of probes while doing it.

Sated

England4983 Posts

February 05 2012 20:26 GMT

#147

--- Nuked ---

SupplyBlockedTV

Belgium313 Posts

May 22 2012 19:44 GMT

#148

I hope its not bad that i bump this thread...but i just jumped into axslavs stream, and he is doing nexus first..then forge and after the forge gateway. But he only places down cannons when he scouts 1base terran i suspect (but so far only seeing terran gasless expand in wich case he would sometimes cancel the forge..or decide to keep it for upgrades).

Anyone can give some more information on how you would defend 1base agression with cannons? or have replays? It looks kind of intresting :D

Abusion

United Kingdom184 Posts

May 22 2012 20:24 GMT

#149

you can only do a FE expand then forge against a Terran that you know 100% that a Terran has not got the gas.. if he has then you have to go gateway after nexus, The reason forge has become popular is because if you scout no expansion you can throw up 2 cannons and be perfectly safe against a 5-6rax all-in.

Acritter

Syria7637 Posts

May 22 2012 20:41 GMT

#150

On May 23 2012 04:44 Xenocide_EU wrote:
I hope its not bad that i bump this thread...but i just jumped into axslavs stream, and he is doing nexus first..then forge and after the forge gateway. But he only places down cannons when he scouts 1base terran i suspect (but so far only seeing terran gasless expand in wich case he would sometimes cancel the forge..or decide to keep it for upgrades).

Anyone can give some more information on how you would defend 1base agression with cannons? or have replays? It looks kind of intresting :D

The idea behind the Nexus Forge expand (which, notably, has been VERY popular in Korea), is that it VERY strongly counters any kind of gasless play. Against Nexus Gate, the Terran has the option after scouting the fast Nexus to rally his Marines over and try to Bunker rush, which can be potent depending on map, positions, and the exact Protoss BO. The single cannon stops any such plan dead in its tracks, and the Forge can then be used for a stupidly fast +1 armor timing. Similarly, Marine all-ins (2-3Rax) are stopped with extra Cannons and Probe pull. So, in general, it is a very robust and secure economic opener, not unlike the Terran Gasless FE. The weaknesses of Nexus Forge play are to gas openers. The first Obs pops without much time to spare in order to stop cloaked Banshees, Hellion play proves to be very strong, and elevator attacks can often end it. All these can be held off, though, it just requires good scouting, game sense, and control from the Protoss player. It's not like trying to hold off proxy 2rax with a Nexus Gate expand (actually impossible, last I checked), which is why Koreans have started to make this build a standard opener on the level of MC's 1gate Expand.

EngrishTeacher

Canada1109 Posts

May 23 2012 00:26 GMT

#151

This build is auto-loss against the 2 rax marauder opening, which is why now tosses tend to get a forge and cannon after the nexus.

3 marauders + 1 marine with 2 more reinforcing arrive at the protoss natural around ~5:30. With concussive shell I just snipe stalkers and kite the zealots for free. 3 marauders/1 marine when micro'ed beats even 2 stalkers/2 zealots (every chrono on gateway after nexus still only gets out 2 stalkers/1 zealot at ~5:30), easily.

ant-1

Canada149 Posts

May 23 2012 01:46 GMT

#152

I have to say that I watch Axslav quite a bit, and I noticed:
- He gets a gate THEN a forge (without cutting any probes). It's really safe, you can have cannons up in time for early aggression. Plus you get your warpgate earlier.
- He always makes a cannon, adds more if he smells something fishy.
- On most maps he does it with a 15 scout (meaning he doesn't care about T opening). The only map where he never does it is Tal Darim, because of a possibility of bunker+reaper.

I copied his style, and at my level (diamond), 80% of Ts try to rush and fail, the rest cut too many corners and die against my 7 gates or fast colo. A very good opening that replaced 1 gate expand for me.

ocGMentalOne

United States8 Posts

May 23 2012 02:14 GMT

#153

Is this build still viable? I've ducked out of the meta-game for awhile so I'm not sure where it is so I can't be so sure a build from last November is still good.

phiinix

United States1169 Posts

May 23 2012 02:58 GMT

#154

Still good as far as I've seen, just be really, really careful if you spot gas. I've been going reapers(just 1 or 2 to probe harass someone who goes forge variation), 4 hellions straight, or 4 hellion medivac and it just WRECKS some protosses who get too greedy.

lorestarcraft

United States1049 Posts

May 27 2012 17:58 GMT

#155

On May 23 2012 09:26 EngrishTeacher wrote:
This build is auto-loss against the 2 rax marauder opening, which is why now tosses tend to get a forge and cannon after the nexus.

3 marauders + 1 marine with 2 more reinforcing arrive at the protoss natural around ~5:30. With concussive shell I just snipe stalkers and kite the zealots for free. 3 marauders/1 marine when micro'ed beats even 2 stalkers/2 zealots (every chrono on gateway after nexus still only gets out 2 stalkers/1 zealot at ~5:30), easily.

What about the worker pull though? If done right, your still behind because the toss has 2 nexi and chrono boost.

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

May 27 2012 18:07 GMT

#156

Today I did this build and lost. The Terran did a tanks all-in, by proxying his factory next to my natural. He pulled all his scvs.. the rush came at 7'30. No idea how to hold it.

lorestarcraft

United States1049 Posts

May 27 2012 18:52 GMT

#157

On May 28 2012 03:07 Nyast wrote:
Today I did this build and lost. The Terran did a tanks all-in, by proxying his factory next to my natural. He pulled all his scvs.. the rush came at 7'30. No idea how to hold it.

There are several terran all-ins that are nigh impossible to hold. We just have to pray they don't do them.