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On November 16 2011 12:57 Vlare wrote:
Tried this a few times on ladder, So far I've been all in'd every game. marine scv, Maraine/marauder scv. Or even a marauder/marine pressure timing. One guy built a PF at the gold on Metal.
Not sure how to deal with it =\
Will keep trying.
I find that if they expand I'm in great shape though.
Ive been delaying cyber to get a forge first instead, then throwing down 2 well placed cannons in the nat. It puts you slightly behind in econ for a little bit, but it helps hold all ins very well, and if you hold that all in you usually win. This is at high diamond level though so take it with a grain of salt.
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Just going to add one thing. The scout needs to happen WAY earlier than 15. There are things you just won't be able to find out in time without an earlier scouting Probe. This is from experience using this build on ladder. Sending a later Probe ends up being wasteful in the end, because your Chrono can end up stagnating if you scout them last. 13 Scout seems like it would be reasonable, although 9 Scout is always fun because you can harass a little.
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This dies straight-up to a 3-rax stim conc timing. No way around it, even if your opponent has bronze league micro. Also, there is actually no way to scout the 3-rax coming, so you are basically assuming that your opponent isn't 3-raxing, and if he is, you lose.
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You can beat 3 rax if he just comes with bio, but if he brings half his SCVs along then yeah you're basically dead. It might be possible to just sac the expo and retreat up the ramp though and still be in it, as the expo has definitely paid for itself and then some at that point.
The key to beating 3 rax is to force him to make 2 marines to chase your probe away. The second marine delays the tech lab, and thus stim, by another 25 seconds which is huge. If he walls his front with depot/rax/depot so your probe can't get in you can be reasonably confident it's not a 3 rax because he can't put a tech lab on that barracks unless he moves it, and you can keep poking up with your probe to check for that, you won't lose it to one marine.
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On November 10 2011 11:57 LuckyFool wrote:
Solid build.
Lately when I scout a nexus first vs toss I've been dropping 5rax before gas doing a little marine pressure into a fast 3rd. Because you delay tech it allows the T to get a fast 3rd. Helps make for a pretty even mid game.
This is pretty much exactly what I do when I scout it and I'm going 1 rax expo as well. if i scout it on the first try, i just throw down 2 more raxes and cheese. if i scout it too late, i just expo + add 4 more raxes.
You just do a strong marine pressure with 5 rax with a couple of scvs, reduce sentry count/kill probes if possible, while you put up another CC. With the 5 rax push, depending on what build order toss used after 15 nexus/what map it is, you can even kill the toss.
imo 1 gate FE is a much better & safer than no gate expo because it makes the terran think. you can almost always prevent the terran from scouting a 1gate FE with your first stalker, where as a 15 nexus, the terran will ALWAYS know.
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I've been doing this build a long time ago and and i will let everyone know here it does not work most of the time. it has a lot of weaknesses to it. sure it can catch certain players off guard but its really risky.
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On November 16 2011 20:47 Cartel wrote:
I've been doing this build a long time ago and and i will let everyone know here it does not work most of the time. it has a lot of weaknesses to it. sure it can catch certain players off guard but its really risky.
oh, wow thanks for the expert advice!
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This is exactly how 15 nex has always been, not like he pioneered something new here..
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Can someone tell me how much nexus first eco is better than 1 gate FE eco? You seem to cut so many probes for a build that doesn't seem that superior and is much less safe; it just feels awful to me.
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On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D
I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch.
Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable?
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Great Guild! Nexus First is always really good in terms of economy. I needed a new PvT strat. Thanks bro
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On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable?
...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude?
This is a great guide. I've always found scouting and reacting to the terran pokerface to be by far the most challenging aspect of early-game PvT. There's just so many different all-ins that can come screaming out of their base at so many different timings, which all seem to need a different response. This thread clarified a lot of things.
But on that note, the marine-hellion build scares me. Has Axslav ever run into it? I tend to just lol when I see a Terran try hellions, and then one day I got rolled by that thing and kind of sat there for a minute or two wondering what happened.
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Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so obviously I'm bad, but:
I have a really hard time going Nexus first PvT. I always lose to early pressure. The most common response is a bunker rush followed by a 2 rax. I just get crushed by early Marines/Marauders (or cheese if I'm not quick enough with my robo/paying attention). Does anyone have advice for this?
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I never hear any real pro players recommend ever going nexus first. You are not zerg, your nexus does not create all you units. This is not something that is very player-friendly for the general populous. If you nexus first, and you are not in the bottom 20 of bronze, then you will just die to any attack. I've even seen some zergs pull half their drones and like 8 lings vs nexus-first forge FE and effortlessly win. I dont see how it is any different from marines + scv's vs terran.
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On November 18 2011 11:21 ishyishy wrote:
I never hear any real pro players recommend ever going nexus first. You are not zerg, your nexus does not create all you units. This is not something that is very player-friendly for the general populous. If you nexus first, and you are not in the bottom 20 of bronze, then you will just die to any attack. I've even seen some zergs pull half their drones and like 8 lings vs nexus-first forge FE and effortlessly win. I dont see how it is any different from marines + scv's vs terran.
man, i never post on TL as you can see by my post count...and i never realized why having blue posts was so neccessary...but guys like this are just hilarious. i just can't wrap my head around how some people can not take a game seriously, and not be good at a game, yet feel qualified to discount advice given by high level players...mind boggling.
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It is a fair point that you don't see it very often from the Korean P's. Is there something that makes it less viable at that level/environment, or have they just not caught on yet?
It's pretty obvious that if it's good enough for Axslav, it's good enough for pretty much everyone else.
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On November 18 2011 11:00 Xaeldaren wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so obviously I'm bad, but:
I have a really hard time going Nexus first PvT. I always lose to early pressure. The most common response is a bunker rush followed by a 2 rax. I just get crushed by early Marines/Marauders (or cheese if I'm not quick enough with my robo/paying attention). Does anyone have advice for this?
Gonna sound rough, but don't Nexus first.
Nexus first requires you to have good knowledge, and be able to make good reads on your opponent. If you feel that you can make these reads to a level like that of High Master player, then you can do it :D.
People often mistakenly call nexus first 'risky' or 'unsafe'. In reality a better description would be 'less stable' than gate first openings.
Gate first openings have a larger margin for error when it comes to making reads / defending cheese/pushes. Suggest mastering a 1-gate FE build first - as the "reads & reactions" for this build are somewhat similar to the R&R for nexus first (but not as punishing on your build-crispness & micro).
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On November 18 2011 11:53 Belisarius wrote:
It is a fair point that you don't see it very often from the Korean P's. Is there something that makes it less viable at that level/environment, or have they just not caught on yet?
It's pretty obvious that if it's good enough for Axslav, it's good enough for pretty much everyone else.
i don't think it's a fair point at all...Nexus first is extremely common nowadays on the korean ladder and even just last night both MC and Puzzle both went nexus first in matches that determine their fate for the season.
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On November 18 2011 10:50 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 08:22 Keilah wrote:On November 15 2011 05:04 BADSMCGEE wrote:On November 14 2011 08:11 Keilah wrote:On November 11 2011 11:19 Keilah wrote:
but can nexus first hold vs a 2-rax + PF rush? nobody ever takes this seriously, but try it... on maps where you can't FF them out of your natural, the PF + 2rax will kill your expo the reason nobody takes it seriously is because the nexus first is only weaker than 1/3 gate expo during an EXTREMELY small timing window. Time is a resource in sc2. Even with terran spending all of his money on units to punish your econ at the reactor 2 rax timing, nexus first still crushes it because the window where it is difficult is earlier. waiting longer, spending less money on units and more on an EBAY and CC in the NAT makes it almost laughable. plus, the amount of time it takes for the CC to build and morph into a PF is sacrificing in the "TIME" category alot...it's giving protoss light years to react and chrono out troops. I also realize only .01% of people that play sc2 play the same game i do, so if this works at your level, by all means get whatever wins you can with it! thanks for reading the guide! =D I don't 1v1 much but i've been world top 100 in 2v2 and 3v3 for a couple seasons so i'm no slouch. Did you actually try it, or just theory out that it's laughable? ...you suggest a counter to a 1v1 GM guy, and then when he says it doesn't work, you accuse him of theorycrafting while in the same post stating that you yourself don't play 1v1. Really dude?
Yeah, really. If he'd actually tested it, he'd have said so instead of giving a theory-based answer.
Way back when I used to 1v1 a bit, when the first proper guide to nexus first PvT came out, someone suggested the PF rush. I asked the guy who created the thread (I believe his name was 'darkness') to test it out and when he did, he agreed that he couldn't hold except on maps where he could lock out his natural with FFs (eg, shakuras). Now maybe things have changed or he just wasn't good enough, but I won't accept pure theory over the experience of the guy who wrote the book on nexus first.
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I played 4 games with a High master friend with this very build last night.
I attempted to 2 rax the build 2 times and failed miserably both times with ADROIT micro. Granted, we were in cross positions both games, but the map was not large.
This build makes me T.T all over the place as high master gm Terran. My only response in game 4 was to double expand, which allowed me to win, but this may well have been only because I was a better player and over time I made better decisions, better macro, micro etc.
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EPT
