A lot of people would consider 6pooling as a strat that everyone can perform.
That might be true. Not everyone can macro, but everyone can build a pool on 200 minerals. Everyone can attack-move the lings into the enemies base too.
The question is, can they win with it? Sure, from time to time they will take a map only to idle in bronze-gold with 6pooling every single game; sounds like fun.
This is where I come in. My friends said that it isn’t possible to get into Masters League with only 6pooling, so I bet against them and said I could get into Grandmasters League just by 6pooling and dronerushing (We also included 7pooling later on).
Knowing how the game works and by making my own variants of early rushes (Some even say my ZvZ build is imbalanced) combined with my decent micro I gathered from wc3 I got started on the work ahead of me.
I’ve played a ton of 6pools up until now, and I fell in love with the strat. I really enjoy when people flame me and pretend I’m the BM guy just because I played 6pool (how does that make sense? O_O)
I went into Grandmasters League in NA last season. Everyone who doubted me just said things like "uhh NA sucks, there are no good player its like being platinum in Europe."
I didn’t play to much anymore, only teamgames with some friends basically and had almost forgotten about the bet then. I was pissed because my hard word didn’t count for [insert bad word]. Blizzard made one patch after another, maps getting bigger and bigger and I guess you guys know what it means for 6pools when close positions is disabled -_-
Still recently my good friend actionjesuz was in a tournament and I was watching him play against some other zerg. He got raped pretty bad on the first map. After the match I explained my strat very quick and told him what to take care of, etc., and he ended up winning 2-1. I also got my motivation back, and I started to play more serious (serious 6pool YEY!) again.
Now I hope those [bad word again] accept once and for all that I won my bet. I had a good run on Europe since then. When the ladder reset happened I soon showed up to be #1 with 200 points leading the 2nd place in my division and was easily in the top 30 in Europe.
When GM started I had close to 900 points and was searching for a game, found a cute little Terran (nfteam.breach), whom I have beaten quite often with 6pools so I decided to go for the imbalanced dronerush! Even Whitera said "too strong zerg drones" so how would there be a chance that my poor Terran opponent would win this game? Said and done. 15 SCVs aren’t able to beat 12 drones and I quickly saw the screen "blabla congratulations, your in grandmaster blabla"
You need to be aware that when you click on a mineral patch your worker paths through everything but buildings. This is required in a lot of scenarios.
Be aware when you fight against other workers. Example: if you fight 5 workers vs 5 workers, what would you do? 99% of you would say to move the red worker back, but that’s WRONG. You actually lose a lot of damage output when doing this and I don’y do it to often. Only if you need to change their positions do you do it, like when you’re fighting between the CC and minerals you micro normal (with mineral pathing) because a lot of workers are stuck behind your front line with full health. However, when you have a line fight, you need the hold position micro. Basically, hold position drops the threat level of that worker so they aren’t attacked by the enemy. Right after you hold position, you attack move again so you don’t sit idle without doing damage for too long.
If the opponent defends with a cannon, he will probably place the worker around it and hit hold position. Your units will try to attack the tower and just run against the workers surrounding it and do no damage if you a-move, so just hold position yourself and micro your units close to the enemy workers so they attack. Don’t forget to push hold position every time you move your units though.
This is another very important thing. You have to deny any wall-in you can of both Protoss and Terrans in order to take the win home. This means blocking the building as long as possible and not taking too much damage on the blocker. You should walk in circles, leave the space where he wants to close the choke, and then walk in again when you think he’ll put his building down. You can win important seconds like this but NEVER lose a worker while blocking. While you’re blocking the choke your aim is not to deal direct damage, it is to buy yourself more time.
Just know and be aware that to play this type of strat sucessfully you have to play almost perfect; it’s very unforgiving (unlike Protoss or Terran :D). This might be a "simple" strat but you have to perform it perfect and can’t allow simple mistakes that you can get away with in a normal macro game.
The Vetos: -Shakuras (to long way, only good in zvz) -tal darim -Meta (overlordscout will gain to much info to early so it sucks in zvz close by air positions)
- Build your pool at 200 minerals ASAP (aim for 37 seconds), then make 2 additional drones. - At 90 seconds (1:30), send your first drone scout to the closest possible spawn. - At 100 minerals you send the 2nd drone to the same direction. - At 125 minerals send every drone (return cargo first) in the direction of your opponent. - You have 150 minerals now and almost right after you send your last drone the pool will finish, and make 3 lings and rally them to the enemies base. - When the 1st drone arrives you instant attack the worker who is building the rax. He will pull some workers, but doesn’t know yet (it’s an unorthodox scout timing) that more workers are on the way and he probably only sent 1-2 workers out in the beginning. If you outnumber him you can pick an open fight. Take care that he cant place down a depot to finish the wall-in though. If he pulls a bunch of workers just back off and only block the depot by popping in and then backing off. If your lings are already close you can stay to fight even if outnumbered. Just make sure that he cannot close the ramp. - If there’s like a 2vs2 worker thingy and he’s still building the rax, try to snipe the worker building the rax in order to get some extra time before the rax finishes. You can be in a lot of different situations now. He might have put down the depot (u cannot block it 100%) but its on low health. You have to know that there are 2 different formations of your lings when attacking a depot. Most of the time only 2 lings will be able to attack the depot, but if you single micro them to the right place 3 lings can actually attack the depot at once and can kill it faster than an scv can build it and you will eventually break through. - Another situation is if the rax finishes (most of the time) and your lings are in his base with your workers. If his workers want to fight, let them. If not, attack the rax; you can kill it before the marine pops out. Most Terrans will react though and fight you with their SCVs even though the marine is only 50 % done. In this case, you will win the fight and can snipe the marines easily. He can also fight in reversed positions, where you are in his base and he is down the choke with the marine in the back. This is where you use the minerals at natural to mineral path some workers (2-3) on his marine and attack-move the rest with a little micro. - Another scenario is when the rax doesn’t finish in time. Kill it anyways because Terrans can basically close the wall-in and fly out, and then you’re inside his base and once the wall can be repaired there’s no way to break it and you will end up losing the match. READ: Always kill the rax! - There’s another style some Terrans do where the rax has enough time to get out 1 marine even though you focus attacked it. Some Terrans try to get up a bunker too. You have to know the timing of the marine. Stop focusing the rax before the marine pops out and block the way to the minerals (where the bunker might be eventually) surround that "50 minerals cheap imbalanced shitface" and kill it, then finish the rax. - If Terran goes for 11/11 rax with a depot on the choke the wallin will be done before your drone even arrives and the Terran has won if he reacts right. You should then just idle your worker out of sight unless it’s your first scouting drone. Harass the worker that’s building the rax. Eventually he will lower the depot and send some workers out to fight your drone. Walk in quickly on the depot (it’s not that easy let me tell ya) and move in all your drones. Also be aware Terran can fly away with their buildings, usually behind rocks.
- Build a pool on 200 minerals (aim for 37 seconds!) then build one additional drone. - Send a scouting drone on 65 (1:05) seconds in the game to the closest position. If you dont meet the scouting probe of your opponent on the middle of the way instantly turn around and go for the crossed position. - Once your pool finishes make 3 lings. Get an additional ling once you have the larva for it. Right before another larva spawns you take the gas and you make another pair of lings. Do it again with the next larva but don’t forget to cancel your gas right after you started the lings! -Build an overlord and spam lings all the time. While doing this there will be different scenarios. If the Protoss hasn’t scouted you yet you can be sure he hasn’t placed down a pylon near his minerals yet. Just kill the forge and the game will be won. If he scouted you (99% of the time) you go up the choke, trying to kill as many probes as possible. If he’s backing up or you see any chance to kill the cannon in time, focus it. You most likely wont kill it, so back off and kill the pylon and the forge on the lower ground. Build additional lings but hide them. Your opponent wont make more than 1 cannon (usually) so deny scouting probes from then on! - Once you have like 16 supply you will have enough money for a queen. Spend it and get additional larva; now it’s up to your reading skills, whenever you think you can take on the worker+cannon+eventually zealot go for it! - A tip is to try to block the cannon for a while with your drone, do not lose it and move it back to work, also for sure block the choke open on some maps they can close with 1 forge and 2 gateways. Do not let that happen
- Build a pool on 200 minerals (aim for 37 seconds!) then build one additional drone. - Send a scouting drone on 65 (1:05) seconds in the game to the closest position. If you don’t meet the scouting probe of your opponent on the middle of the way instantly turn around and go for the crossed position. - Once your pool finishes make 3 lings. Get an additional ling once you have the larva for it. Right before another larva spawns you take the gas and you make another pair of lings. Do it again with the next larva but don’t forget to cancel your gas right after you started the lings! -Build an overlord and spam lings all the time. - So your opponent, once 6pool is scouted, will place another gateway down since a forge would be destroyed to fast (if he does just focus it down as above) and a pylon to finish the wall-in. Focus the finished gateway until both gateways have around the same hp. Focus them down so that they will die at the same time. Usually the Protoss will kill of his own gate because he has one still producing. You have so many units though that you can pick a straight fight even though he uses his worker with only 1 zealot out. Take the fight and kill the gateway later on. There cannot be too many different situations. Sometimes they cancel their 2nd gate once the zealot is out and try to defend with the worker, so just wait for reinforcements, after your overlord is finished you will be able to build 6 additional lings (4 and 2 others like 2 seconds after the overlord is finished). This is when you pick the fight. If he does a wall-in again so only 1 zealot blocks, look for a timing to move your drones in, and use the mineral pathing to kill the zealot.
have historically struggled 6pooling vs Zerg. Even bringing your drones you cannot win. He can just attack move you with his workers and win. He can beat you without losing a unit when he waits for his lings. This is why it took me quite a long time to come up with this build. I made it on my own and I’m very proud about it because it works so well and it really took me a ton of games to make it. This build is made to beat a 14/14 but you even can beat 13 pools with it. Hatch first you can win too if you just surround the eggs which produce lings so they will be surrounded right when they come out. - To start, build a drone (YES I ACTUALLY BUILD DRONES BEFORE THE POOL!), then after that on 200 you build a pool now (there it ends QQ). - Build another drone (YEAH ECO), and when your pool is like 90% finished and you didn’t find the zerg yet (met his overlord) you send a drone to the closest by ground position. - When the pool finishes you build 3 sets of lings. - Build an extractor and make another pair of lings, and send all your drones but one like 2 seconds before the first 6 lings finish. When you have 140 minerals build another extractor and make a ling. Cancel the gases, and if you don’t have 100 minerals now mine till you have 100 and then send your last 2 drones. - When your lings are close to the enemies base, close enough to defend your spine crawler that you’re going to place, put it down (near the main so he wont have any free mineral patches to mine on). Don’t attack his workers until lings no. 7 and 8 arrive + 2 drones, at that point you can pick a fight. You for sure can pick a fight if he attacks your spine with 4 workers but once he attacks with everything, move back again. 2 things can happen. - He stays aggressive, meaning he doesn’t commit and waits for his lings. Once his lings are up try to buy time for yourself by attacking and backing off before your spine finishes. When the spine finishes you can fight. If he runs to your base with his drones you know he’s going for the basetrade. After you killed his main you have to uproot or he will crush your army easily. Place your army around his larva than so that the units popping out will be trapped (this actually takes a lot of practice). If you fail doing this on some maps you still have the opportunity for a save tie. Just place your spine so that he doesn’t attack the main building but where it can cover the choke. Place your army around the choke and he can’t fight you (you can’t kill the gas he will build outside his base either^^)
Here is an alternative 7pool strat what is in the rules (remember 6/7pooling only) i mixed in with some dronerushes to be not that 100% blind counterable because this strat, as stupid as it sounds, counters an early forge because you can keep your oponnent on 1 base for very long, same as it counters normal gateway play because u can do alot of damage while droning behind. -build a drone -build a pool on 200 minerlas (aim for 46 seconds, normal is like 49) -build 3 drones (9/10) -send a drone on 60 seconds to scout / block buildings. -when pool finishes take 2 gasses and make 3 pair of lings (12/10) -build an overlod -build 3 drones whenever larva is available, -build a queen -build another drone -set up ur expansion -build a drone -overlord -additional drones from there on its a stylistic play, i like to play the gasless zerg for a very long time to take the 4 gasses at the same time in oder to tech for mutas if im not forced into roach play. sure it could be played out differently like mine 100 gas to get speed and play a normal game from now on. ill upload a replay so you can see how i mean this to be played out.
Another replay of this eco 7pool vs WHITERA played on the 11.11.11 threw the game away but well. shows how to react well from whitera, and how to transition as zerg http://drop.sc/56357
When the zerglings and drones of your oponnent run into your base u select all your worker and use the move command on a mineralpatch that is in the middle of 2 other mineralpatches so theres not much space where the enemies army can attack. spam the move command (right click) on this mineralpatch so ur drones will be on exactly the same position. when the force of your oponnent now attacks make an attackmove out of this position, all your worker will hit then and kill 1 unit instantly. now move on the mineralfield again and keep calm. u cannot attack instanly again because the duration of the attacktime a drone has (weaponspeed 1,5) u need to know about this and when u think the drones can attack again move out with the attack command again and u will kill another unit. keep in mind if ur enemie stays passive thats good for you too. just NEVER build a queen, its waste of minerals and could be 6 zerglings. and dont care for the spinecrawler a spinecrawler works completely different than in a macro game. like in a macro game spinecrawler are known to deal alot of damage but tank a little. in this scenario the spinecrawler works completely backwords. i can tank alot of damage and needs 2 shots for a ling which is alot by the attackspeed of 1.85. always kill the army first before u attack the spinecrawler (unless he runs away, once he commits go for the army). Special thanks to mTL.Tt Gandi for making that replay with me, its much appreciated from my side and was a really great help.
Sometimes terran who get out a single marine and still have some worker surround their marines so your drones would just bounce back on them unable to use the attack command. single microing your drones to attack a worker will take you alot of time to do and in this time the marine can deal alot of dmage, if the 2 scvs besides that one you are attacking will repair the scv there is no way to kill off that scv. To get The kill on the marine as quick as possible i can give you a little tip. remember the droneslide? like when u click on minerals no worker, nor unit will block the way of the drones. in this scenario position your worker that the surrounded marine is right on the way to the mineralpatch you will rightclick on. now ur worker will slide right into the surrounded marine. if you click attackmove right when the are near the marine it will instnat kill the marine. every single drone will hit him because the worker of your opnnent are on hold position command. GG, game won (plz dont make me do a vod of it ^_^)
i hope u have a good enough information to make a fair opinion about my strats now. but plz leave the flames out of here.
see you guys in grandmaster soon ^_^ for questions feel free to pm me. dont forget there are a ton of replays uploaded. check them out
00:17 [All] FameToFlame: werent u that stupid kid i raped with toss? 00:33 [All] VTavilo: i don't even remember ur username 00:35 [All] FameToFlame: who wanned naked pics 00:35 [All] VTavilo: so ur prob trash righ 00:39 [All] VTavilo: wtf? 00:39 [All] FameToFlame: of that girl :D 00:46 [All] FameToFlame: its true dude 00:48 [All] VTavilo: of what girl 00:57 [All] FameToFlame: dont remmeber name 01:01 [All] VTavilo: what the hell 01:02 [All] VTavilo: are u talking about 01:05 [All] FameToFlame: only know 01:08 [All] FameToFlame: luna flamed you^^ 01:13 [All] VTavilo: luna? 01:21 [All] FameToFlame: yup 01:25 [All] FameToFlame: dont play stupid boy 01:33 [All] VTavilo: wtF? 01:46 [All] VTavilo: u a hackeR? 01:49 [All] FameToFlame: yes 02:10 [All] VTavilo: LOL 02:14 [All] VTavilo: wow 02:35 [All] VTavilo: ... 02:37 [All] FameToFlame: gg 02:37 [All] FameToFlame: wp 02:38 [All] VTavilo: ur a fuckin hacker 02:39 [All] VTavilo: ... 02:39 [All] FameToFlame: patchterra 02:41 [All] VTavilo: u didn't even scout 02:45 [All] FameToFlame: no need 02:45 [All] FameToFlame: btw 02:47 [All] VTavilo: .... 02:48 [All] FameToFlame: its normal scout pathern 02:50 [All] FameToFlame: of crossed
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00:03 [All] VTavilo: hey retard (very confident to win this time) 00:05 [All] VTavilo: not only do 00:06 [All] FameToFlame: ggl boy 00:07 [All] VTavilo: you hack 00:09 [All] VTavilo: ur an idiot 00:16 [All] FameToFlame: raging NA kid :D 00:17 [All] FameToFlame: fun 00:22 [All] VTavilo: a 00:26 [All] VTavilo: i don't know wtf you were talking abotu last game 00:26 [All] VTavilo: b 00:31 [All] VTavilo: 6 opoool? 00:32 [All] VTavilo: u bronze? 00:50 [All] VTavilo: u scouted a proxy location b4 even top 00:51 [All] VTavilo: that game 00:56 [All] VTavilo: ur an idio 01:32 [All] VTavilo: again? 01:45 [All] VTavilo: 'seriously>? 01:56 [All] VTavilo: wtf 01:59 [All] VTavilo: is ur problem 02:09 [All] VTavilo: seriously faggot 02:13 [All] FameToFlame: chalalala 02:16 [All] VTavilo: .... 03:14 [All] VTavilo: fuckin retard 03:36 [All] VTavilo: lol 04:00 [All] VTavilo: wow 04:04 [All] VTavilo: gj 04:06 [All] VTavilo: u really are a hacker 04:07 [All] VTavilo: ' 04:50 [All] VTavilo: LOL 04:53 [All] VTavilo: such a faggot
00:09 [All] sTaGaming: streaming? 00:12 [All] Beastyqt: no 00:39 [All] sTaGaming: ggl 00:42 [All] Beastyqt: glhf 02:11 [All] Beastyqt: really? 02:14 [All] sTaGaming: yup 02:30 [All] Beastyqt: u should 02:33 [All] Beastyqt: kill yourself 02:35 [All] sTaGaming: u qq? 02:37 [All] Beastyqt: fucking cunt 02:39 [All] sTaGaming: beasty QQ? 03:04 [All] Beastyqt: fucking loser 03:06 [All] sTaGaming: nice manner 03:15 [All] Beastyqt: what you gonna do 03:16 [All] sTaGaming: less qq more pew pew 03:18 [All] Beastyqt: post on TL 03:20 [All] sTaGaming: yes 03:22 [All] Beastyqt: you are fucking piece of shit 03:24 [All] Beastyqt: go post it 03:27 [All] sTaGaming: i won the mighty beastyqt 03:32 [All] Beastyqt: you won my dick 03:32 [All] sTaGaming: nice manner 03:38 [All] Beastyqt: i'll deliver it 03:42 [All] sTaGaming: i would rage 2 03:46 [All] sTaGaming: when i would lose with patchterran :/ 04:00 [All] Beastyqt: patchterran? 04:01 [All] Beastyqt: wat 04:07 [All] sTaGaming: nothing special 04:12 [All] sTaGaming: only means u wouldnt have won a single game by now 04:15 [All] sTaGaming: if you would pick another race 04:24 [All] Beastyqt: i beat kas with offraces taht i dont even play 04:28 [All] Beastyqt: hard to S+D and click fungal 04:28 [All] Beastyqt: rofl 04:35 [All] sTaGaming: and i win you with funstrats :/ 04:43 [All] Beastyqt: ye because you cant win real game 04:45 [All] sTaGaming: good world 04:45 [All] Beastyqt: coz you are terrible 04:48 [All] Beastyqt: what are you 04:49 [All] sTaGaming: Q__Q 04:50 [All] Beastyqt: low masters? 04:52 [All] sTaGaming: dont hurt me brah 04:54 [All] sTaGaming: yes 04:57 [All] Beastyqt: ye avoid answer you know its true 05:04 [All] sTaGaming: i like u russians 05:09 [All] sTaGaming: the once that doesnt hack 05:10 [All] sTaGaming: flame 05:19 [All] Beastyqt: you are so fucking stupid im not russian 05:24 [All] sTaGaming: well 05:24 [All] Beastyqt: u are so bad 05:25 [All] Beastyqt: and stupid 05:27 [All] sTaGaming: its the same :/ 06:42 [All] sTaGaming: beastyQQ 06:45 [All] sTaGaming: will be my next acc 06:51 [All] Beastyqt: kk 07:03 [All] Beastyqt: Tardgaming will be my smurf 07:04 [All] Beastyqt: in bronze 07:09 [All] Beastyqt: so ppl wouldnt suspect 08:11 [All] sTaGaming: macro 08:12 [All] sTaGaming: good 08:13 [All] sTaGaming: <3 08:20 [All] sTaGaming: # 08:22 [All] sTaGaming: oh wait 08:26 [All] sTaGaming: u cant do anything else than 2 base allins 08:32 [All] Beastyqt: lol 08:35 [All] Beastyqt: wait i have to ask 08:38 [All] Beastyqt: how old are you? 08:40 [All] sTaGaming: 12 08:41 [All] sTaGaming: you? 08:50 [All] Beastyqt: i dont understand people like you 08:52 [All] sTaGaming: ur mummey didnt teach u manner? :/ 08:59 [All] sTaGaming: neither do i understnad whiner/flamer 09:01 [All] sTaGaming: like you 09:02 [All] Beastyqt: are you that jealous of progamers that you have to do this and then talk bullshit? 09:08 [All] Beastyqt: coz u are terrible? 09:11 [All] sTaGaming: i was profesional wc3 player 09:13 [All] sTaGaming: for ages 09:15 [All] sTaGaming: im tired of it 09:19 [All] Beastyqt: tell me your PRO wc3 name pls 09:20 [All] sTaGaming: and getting like 200 a month, like you do 09:21 [All] Beastyqt: i'll ask grubby 09:30 [All] sTaGaming: well 09:31 [All] Beastyqt: well you got 200/month coz u are shit probably (mirror, you!!) 09:34 [All] sTaGaming: i wouldnt call that profesional 09:40 [All] Beastyqt: no tell me 09:45 [All] Beastyqt: whats your WC3 name Mr. pro low masters 09:52 [All] Beastyqt: exactly what i thought 09:58 [All] Beastyqt: u are newbie thats jealous of sc2 pros and you do this 09:59 [All] sTaGaming: grubby knows who i am 10:01 [All] sTaGaming: im madfrog 10:02 [All] Beastyqt: you probably tell your buddies as well? 10:03 [All] sTaGaming: haha 10:11 [All] Beastyqt: madfrog quit long time ago 10:18 [All] Beastyqt: so ya 10:21 [All] Beastyqt: dont talk shit 10:21 [All] Beastyqt: kid 10:23 [All] sTaGaming: have a nice day 10:25 [All] sTaGaming: patchterra 10:28 [All] Beastyqt: with your mother.
00:08 [All] sTaGaming: ggl 00:11 [All] Beastyqt: glhf 00:16 [All] Beastyqt: we played before? 00:19 [All] sTaGaming: no rage today plz 00:20 [All] sTaGaming: yes 00:22 [All] Beastyqt: k 00:26 [All] sTaGaming: i 6pooled you 00:31 [All] Beastyqt: ah the loser 00:38 [All] sTaGaming: yeah u raged like 2 hours last time :/ 00:43 [All] Beastyqt: from? 00:48 [All] sTaGaming: korea 00:52 [All] Beastyqt: then its NA 00:54 [All] Beastyqt: thought so 01:02 [All] sTaGaming: germany 01:06 [All] Beastyqt: fo sho (fascho? or for sure?) 02:44 [All] Beastyqt: gg 03:05 [All] sTaGaming: 04:27 [All] sTaGaming: damn that was expensive 04:36 [All] sTaGaming: lucky i outclass you so i can come back 04:42 [All] Beastyqt: u are shit 04:43 [All] Beastyqt: retard 04:49 [All] sTaGaming: rage agian 04:51 [All] sTaGaming: ^^ 04:58 [All] Beastyqt: fucking 2 year old 04:59 [All] Beastyqt: nerd 05:02 [All] sTaGaming: 2 year 05:04 [All] sTaGaming: wow good flame 05:05 [All] sTaGaming: keep going 08:05 [All] Beastyqt: lol cancel (after canceling a creep tumour :D) 08:06 [All] Beastyqt: noob 08:11 [All] sTaGaming: ^^ 08:31 [All] sTaGaming: "lol terran noob" 09:13 [All] Beastyqt: gg faggot
before you flame, an admin told me to repost it after i add some information about the strats because the old thread had already to much hate in it. just leave the hate of this and go to my blog. feel free to flame there, i sure do care.
like being plat in europe? my high masters got me masters on kr... don't really know why euro would even try to be elitist.. its well known both the ladders are pretty even in skill level.
nope only a proof that master players are as weak to cheese as bronze players. Lost to some 6 pools before, but generally cheese is really easy to hold and badly executed most of the time. Due to the macro only syndrome, where players only train that and well die pretty easily to micro heavy openings. i wish i would meet more cheesy players, its fun to micro with workers and t1 units.
great in-depth analysis of effective early pool all-ins.
It's not uncommon anymore for economic 7pools or economic 10 pools to be go-to strats for some people but I really like the devotion to all-in in your guide.
Thanks a lot, great read, great tactical and timing information.
On November 09 2011 02:08 Zefa wrote: Surprisingly solid strategy post that focuses on the 6/7 pool builds. White ra video was awesome. Makes me love the guy even more.
btw, OP, does anyone u play on ladder ever just blind counter a 6 pool build when they face you?
ye i meet alot of 9pools or 12 pools or double 10 gate and such unortodox shit, guess a maphack is arround but once u passed those guys (midhighmaster) and you only face really good player that blind counters number decreases
Good info and all but I just don't understand how doing this most game to get into GM make you a better player as a whole but hey, if its make you happy, good for you
I don't want to sound mean, but I have no clue what this is supposed to mean
be aware when u fight against other worker. ill explain it on a simple example. u fight 5 worker vs 5 worker, what would you do? like 99% of you would say now move back the worker that are getting red. WRONG. u give away alot of damage when doing this and i wouldnt do it to often unless u really want to change the position of your worker, like when ur fighting between the mainbuilding and the minerals u micro normal (with mineral slide) because alot of worker are stuck behind you with full healt, but when u have a line fight you need the hold posi micro. the worker of ur oponnent wont attack "idle worker" they will always attack "aggro worker" so when u simple push "Hold posi" on a red worker it will lose the attention of the other workers fighting you. instant attackmove after u lost the charge so u dont lose to much damage.
be aware when u fight against other worker. ill explain it on a simple example. u fight 5 worker vs 5 worker, what would you do? like 99% of you would say now move back the worker that are getting red. WRONG. u give away alot of damage when doing this and i wouldnt do it to often unless u really want to change the position of your worker, like when ur fighting between the mainbuilding and the minerals u micro normal (with mineral slide) because alot of worker are stuck behind you with full healt, but when u have a line fight you need the hold posi micro. the worker of ur oponnent wont attack "idle worker" they will always attack "aggro worker" so when u simple push "Hold posi" on a red worker it will lose the attention of the other workers fighting you. instant attackmove after u lost the charge so u dont lose to much damage.
Can anyone explain?
As i understand when you click hold position on attacked your worker attack priority changes to lower and enemy worker start attacking other workers, then you immediatly attack with that worker again. It accomplishes same as moving worker away, just safes some time.
be aware when u fight against other worker. ill explain it on a simple example. u fight 5 worker vs 5 worker, what would you do? like 99% of you would say now move back the worker that are getting red. WRONG. u give away alot of damage when doing this and i wouldnt do it to often unless u really want to change the position of your worker, like when ur fighting between the mainbuilding and the minerals u micro normal (with mineral slide) because alot of worker are stuck behind you with full healt, but when u have a line fight you need the hold posi micro. the worker of ur oponnent wont attack "idle worker" they will always attack "aggro worker" so when u simple push "Hold posi" on a red worker it will lose the attention of the other workers fighting you. instant attackmove after u lost the charge so u dont lose to much damage.
Can anyone explain?
He's saying that if you run your worker away it doesn't do any good versus a-move when compared to simply hitting hold position and then resuming an attack command.
If you hold position your worker loses attack priority UNLESS it is being focused specifically by your enemy's workers.
His micro trick is like popping Vanish or Invisibility in WoW, dropping aggro. ^^
On November 09 2011 02:40 Odal wrote: I don't want to sound mean, but I have no clue what this is supposed to mean
be aware when u fight against other worker. ill explain it on a simple example. u fight 5 worker vs 5 worker, what would you do? like 99% of you would say now move back the worker that are getting red. WRONG. u give away alot of damage when doing this and i wouldnt do it to often unless u really want to change the position of your worker, like when ur fighting between the mainbuilding and the minerals u micro normal (with mineral slide) because alot of worker are stuck behind you with full healt, but when u have a line fight you need the hold posi micro. the worker of ur oponnent wont attack "idle worker" they will always attack "aggro worker" so when u simple push "Hold posi" on a red worker it will lose the attention of the other workers fighting you. instant attackmove after u lost the charge so u dont lose to much damage.
Can anyone explain?
He's saying that if you run your worker away it doesn't do any good versus a-move when compared to simply hitting hold position and then resuming an attack command.
If you hold position your worker loses attack priority UNLESS it is being focused specifically by your enemy's workers.
His micro trick is like popping Vanish or Invisibility in WoW, dropping aggro. ^^
Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
Awesome post. I think cheese is awesome, excitement from the start. Macro is fun too, but they both have their place. I have an alternate account I can use so I think i'm going to 6 pool/cheese only with that account, and macro/play standard with the other. People that say 6 pooling requires no skill are deluding themselves, it's just a different skill.
I kinda like being cheesed actually. I always micro my absolute hardest and if I lose to cheese I generally just got out controlled which is how I would prefer to lose regardless of how early or late it was.
I think I played you thrice on ladder. 1 time 6 pool and twice drone rush. Drone rush close air is pretty strong on temple I feel, but I still defeated it without too much trouble. I am not sure it was you, but man it was fun!! Never played such games before lol
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
I gonna watch all replays just to see peoples reaction :D
Btw you obviously not winning all the games, wonder when exactly do you lose (what opponent must do to win) and on what maps it's not even worth doing this?
On November 09 2011 03:15 Alpina wrote: I gonna watch all replays just to see peoples reaction :D
Btw you obviously not winning all the games, wonder when exactly do you lose (what opponent must do to win) and on what maps it's not even worth doing this?
i veto tal darim, shakuras and meta. lost temple is bad if you have a zerg close by air because he can react with a 13 pool. otherwise basicly on cheese wins my cheese by nature ^_^ else its still a tough fight most of the time -_-
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
Build a pool at 6 supply. Rally lings and/or pull drones. MICRO.
Boring...
I'm not gonna bother continuing here, internet arguments are pointless and this isn't the place for it. Sorry Just wanted to express my opinion to balance out all the "6 pooling is awesome let's all do that every single game!" reactions.
On November 09 2011 02:40 Odal wrote: I don't want to sound mean, but I have no clue what this is supposed to mean
be aware when u fight against other worker. ill explain it on a simple example. u fight 5 worker vs 5 worker, what would you do? like 99% of you would say now move back the worker that are getting red. WRONG. u give away alot of damage when doing this and i wouldnt do it to often unless u really want to change the position of your worker, like when ur fighting between the mainbuilding and the minerals u micro normal (with mineral slide) because alot of worker are stuck behind you with full healt, but when u have a line fight you need the hold posi micro. the worker of ur oponnent wont attack "idle worker" they will always attack "aggro worker" so when u simple push "Hold posi" on a red worker it will lose the attention of the other workers fighting you. instant attackmove after u lost the charge so u dont lose to much damage.
Can anyone explain?
He's saying that if you run your worker away it doesn't do any good versus a-move when compared to simply hitting hold position and then resuming an attack command.
If you hold position your worker loses attack priority UNLESS it is being focused specifically by your enemy's workers.
His micro trick is like popping Vanish or Invisibility in WoW, dropping aggro. ^^
omg really? haha this is epic xD
Heh I never thought about that. This could conceivably also be a way to save your workers from something like a ling harass as well no?
Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
you are my hero. you and actionjezus should form a team like "superfuckingheroes" but you need a cooler "action hero" name(see what i did there).
edit: to people pointing out this guy's grammar and punctuation take into account this guy is from germany. Now what I find ironic is I'm sure he speaks german fluently and you can understand his english. You can speak what? English and Canadian? p.s. the canadian is a joke. shut up. yes, the punctuation and grammar was poor but how about you fix it for him then send him a PM giving him and updated version helping him out. it might even improve his grammar/puncutation seeing where he went worng.
p.s. i get lazy with grammar/punctuation so maybe i'm not one to talk but w/e
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
Just remember that not everyone here's native language is english o.o
You are an idiot. I hate it when I meet people like you on the ladder. Useless pricks that waste my time. I have about an hour a day to play and/or watch SC2. And I hate it when I play stupid people and/or when I watch retarded games on stream.
Don't get me wrong, I don't get mad when I lose to cheese. But I get really sad and I find it a waste of my time (even if I win the game) and want to quit because it's better to do other things than watch idiots doing trivial, uncool and not fun at all things while pretending they are playing the game. You are playing a game in which you pretend you are playing SC2.
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
His english is probably better than your 2nd language ;-)
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
The OP is german.
As for the content itself, I found it quite amusing. I've never 6pooled in my life and don't feel like trying for a good while yet, but I can understand why people mix it in now and then. But 6/7 pool or worker-rush every single game? Wow, I can't believe you don't get bored to death.
Edit: After reading the chat in some of the posted replays, I lost all respect for the OP. Such bad manners... Why would you post stuff where you are making yourself look like an idiot?
This is a frigging awesome guide. So much work put into it, and things that will improve my 6 pool. I'm mid masters Terran, and I do ton's of offrace allin zerg play when I'm bored on ladder. Adding this to my epic tl thread list.
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
When you're this good at it, it is still cheese, but it also takes skill. A lot of it.
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
When you're this good at it, it is still cheese, but it also takes skill. A lot of it.
Erm no. You are just hoping that your opponent does not bother scouting you. Nothing else.
lol... coming from the savior streaming thread, just having watched a savior afreeca highlight vid and then reading a thread about how you can 6 pool to GM in sc2... I never regretted quittin sc2 shortly after release, but on special occassions like these I get that warm feeling of being absolutely content with the decision...
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
When you're this good at it, it is still cheese, but it also takes skill. A lot of it.
Erm no. You are just hoping that your opponent does not bother scouting you. Nothing else.
That's why it is still cheese. But he's doing it a higher level than gold-league six pooling.
So let me get this straight we have a bunch of people pissed that someone managed to 6 pool into GM but the same people probably didn't complain when people 3 rax scv all-in to GM or rank 1 masters. Hold on let me grab my ticket to the hypocrisy train. Woooo WOoooooo !!
This obviously is 100% times harder then the 3 rax scv-all in bs I see MANY terrans do on a regular basis
This is really entertaining and it really sheds some light in the abyss that the early allin pools are. And going to GM by 6-7 pooling is no small feat. The micro vs well known players is beautyful and the 7pool, double extractor vs Z is well planned.
But really dude, how sad of a person you have to be to BM or provoke the players in almost all your games??? Especially the Catz and the Hero ones were just uncalled for. (But Hero has seen lots of sad failed gamers and thus does not make the mistake to feed you and says gg.)
You really spoil a great achievement and a nice thread by this behaviour...
On November 09 2011 04:18 limubai wrote: well gz on beeing able to reach top while beeing [insert bad word].
does this really deserve a threat for attentionwhoring tho ? or is this supposed to be a guide ?
guess those who fail at everything else might feel inspired and try to "incorporate" that "strategie" in their play.
anyone else feels dumber after reading this :D ?
actually after reading this I see that 6 pool has different variantions vs. every race and it's not that simple as it sounds. Even pros, like idra do 6 pool just by building 6 pool and blindly attacking while this guy has perfected this build.
and yes it's a guide if you were too lazy to read before commentating.
On November 09 2011 04:18 limubai wrote: well gz on beeing able to reach top while beeing [insert bad word].
does this really deserve a threat for attentionwhoring tho ? or is this supposed to be a guide ?
guess those who fail at everything else might feel inspired and try to "incorporate" that "strategie" in their play.
anyone else feels dumber after reading this :D ?
actually after reading this I see that 6 pool has different variantions vs. every race and it's not that simple as it sounds. Even pros, like idra do 6 pool just by building 6 pool and blindly attacking while this guy has perfected this build.
and yes it's a guide if you were too lazy to read before commentating.
Indeed. It's the best example of the fact that you don't need a variety of build orders to climb high, you just need absolute perfection in one build order! I am amused. I assume that at some point, you'll have a hard time as people recognize your name and blindly block your 6pools though :<
Cheese will and should be apart of the game. It prevents players from getting away with being too greedy and diversifies games. That's always been the beauty of Starcraft. Games can last anywhere from 5 minutes to 2 hours. If Jaedong can 4 pool Flash in the grand finals of the OSL, I don't see a problem here.
On November 09 2011 01:50 mbr2321 wrote: Is this thread a troll? Why is OP talking about actionjesuz? Is this a real thing?
Youve not been playing sc2 for long i see check out tournaments towards the en dof last year start of this year ... he 6 pooled really deep into a tourney.
To the point annoucers were speculating ... 'No he cant seriously do it again can he? .... OMG'
Morevoer whats with all the grammer qq ... i mean seriously. Yes grammer matters in some situations but really the flow of words conveys vast majority of meaning. It makes me sad to see people insist on perfect english all the time as it is really irrelevant.
Especially when people read it clearly understand and then complain about grammar ... wtf? When i use a fork I dont pick one that is diamond encrusted - I want something to stab meat and eat with. Just because you had overzealous teachers whos only self justification in life was to find niggly things to beat kids up with is NO excuse for repeating those sad pathetic mistakes on others. Lets grow up out of 1950's thinking into a new age where language evolves rapidly and many many cultures try to communicate using language as a vehicle.
ps I deliberately deleted all but essential gammer imo.
00:00:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: stremain? 00:00:17 - Beastyqt to ALL: no
00:00:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: ggl 00:00:58 - Beastyqt to ALL: glhf
00:03:01 - Beastyqt to ALL: really? 00:03:05 - sTaGaming to ALL: yup
00:03:28 - Beastyqt to ALL: u should 00:03:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: kill yourself 00:03:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: u qq? 00:03:38 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking cunt 00:03:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: beasty QQ?
00:04:15 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking loser 00:04:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:04:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: what you gonna do 00:04:32 - sTaGaming to ALL: less qq more pew pew 00:04:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: post on TL 00:04:38 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:04:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are fucking piece of shit 00:04:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: go post it 00:04:46 - sTaGaming to ALL: i won the mighty beastyqr 00:04:48 - sTaGaming to ALL: qt 00:04:53 - Beastyqt to ALL: you won my dick 00:04:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:05:02 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll deliver it 00:05:07 - sTaGaming to ALL: i would rage 2
00:05:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: when i would lose with patchterran :/
00:05:33 - Beastyqt to ALL: patchterran? 00:05:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: wat
00:05:42 - sTaGaming to ALL: nothing special
00:05:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: only means u wouldnt have won a single game by now 00:05:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: if you would pick another race
00:06:05 - Beastyqt to ALL: i beat kas with offraces taht i dont even play 00:06:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: hard to S+D and click fungal 00:06:12 - Beastyqt to ALL: rofl
00:06:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: and i win you with funstrats :/
00:06:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye because you cant win real game 00:06:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: good world 00:06:35 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz you are terrible 00:06:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: what are you 00:06:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: Q__Q 00:06:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: low masters? 00:06:44 - sTaGaming to ALL: dont hurt me brah 00:06:47 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:06:52 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye avoid answer you know its true
00:07:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: i like u russians
00:07:08 - sTaGaming to ALL: the once that doesnt hack 00:07:09 - sTaGaming to ALL: flame
00:07:22 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are so fucking stupid im not russian
00:07:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:07:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are so bad 00:07:31 - Beastyqt to ALL: and stupid 00:07:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: its the same :/
00:09:16 - sTaGaming to ALL: beastyQQ 00:09:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: will be my next acc
00:09:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: kk
00:09:46 - Beastyqt to ALL: Tardgaming will be my smurf 00:09:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: in bronze
00:09:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ppl wouldnt suspect
00:11:21 - sTaGaming to ALL: macro 00:11:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: good 00:11:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: <3
00:11:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: # 00:11:35 - sTaGaming to ALL: oh wait
00:11:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: u cant do anything else than 2 base allins
00:11:49 - Beastyqt to ALL: lol 00:11:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: wait i have to ask 00:11:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: how old are you? 00:12:00 - sTaGaming to ALL: 12 00:12:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: you?
00:12:14 - Beastyqt to ALL: i dont understand people like you 00:12:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: ur mummey didnt teach u manner? :/
00:12:27 - sTaGaming to ALL: neither do i understnad whiner/flamer 00:12:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: like you 00:12:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: are you that jealous of progamers that you have to do this and then talk bullshit?
00:12:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz u are terrible? 00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages 00:12:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: im tired of it 00:12:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: tell me your PRO wc3 name pls 00:12:56 - sTaGaming to ALL: and getting like 200 a month 00:12:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll ask grubby
00:13:10 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:13:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: well you got 200/month coz u are shit probably 00:13:15 - sTaGaming to ALL: i wouldnt call that profesional
00:13:23 - Beastyqt to ALL: no tell me
00:13:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: whats your WC3 name Mr. pro low masters
00:13:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: exactly what i thought
00:13:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are newbie thats jealous of sc2 pros and you do this 00:13:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: grubby knows who i am 00:13:52 - sTaGaming to ALL: im madfrog 00:13:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: you probably tell your buddies as well? 00:13:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: haha
00:14:06 - Beastyqt to ALL: madfrog quit long time ago
00:14:16 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ya 00:14:19 - Beastyqt to ALL: dont talk shit 00:14:20 - Beastyqt to ALL: kid 00:14:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: have a nice day 00:14:26 - sTaGaming to ALL: patchterra 00:14:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: with your mother.
00:00:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: stremain? 00:00:17 - Beastyqt to ALL: no
00:00:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: ggl 00:00:58 - Beastyqt to ALL: glhf
00:03:01 - Beastyqt to ALL: really? 00:03:05 - sTaGaming to ALL: yup
00:03:28 - Beastyqt to ALL: u should 00:03:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: kill yourself 00:03:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: u qq? 00:03:38 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking cunt 00:03:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: beasty QQ?
00:04:15 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking loser 00:04:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:04:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: what you gonna do 00:04:32 - sTaGaming to ALL: less qq more pew pew 00:04:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: post on TL 00:04:38 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:04:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are fucking piece of shit 00:04:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: go post it 00:04:46 - sTaGaming to ALL: i won the mighty beastyqr 00:04:48 - sTaGaming to ALL: qt 00:04:53 - Beastyqt to ALL: you won my dick 00:04:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:05:02 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll deliver it 00:05:07 - sTaGaming to ALL: i would rage 2
00:05:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: when i would lose with patchterran :/
00:05:33 - Beastyqt to ALL: patchterran? 00:05:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: wat
00:05:42 - sTaGaming to ALL: nothing special
00:05:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: only means u wouldnt have won a single game by now 00:05:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: if you would pick another race
00:06:05 - Beastyqt to ALL: i beat kas with offraces taht i dont even play 00:06:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: hard to S+D and click fungal 00:06:12 - Beastyqt to ALL: rofl
00:06:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: and i win you with funstrats :/
00:06:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye because you cant win real game 00:06:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: good world 00:06:35 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz you are terrible 00:06:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: what are you 00:06:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: Q__Q 00:06:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: low masters? 00:06:44 - sTaGaming to ALL: dont hurt me brah 00:06:47 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:06:52 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye avoid answer you know its true
00:07:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: i like u russians
00:07:08 - sTaGaming to ALL: the once that doesnt hack 00:07:09 - sTaGaming to ALL: flame
00:07:22 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are so fucking stupid im not russian
00:07:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:07:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are so bad 00:07:31 - Beastyqt to ALL: and stupid 00:07:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: its the same :/
00:09:16 - sTaGaming to ALL: beastyQQ 00:09:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: will be my next acc
00:09:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: kk
00:09:46 - Beastyqt to ALL: Tardgaming will be my smurf 00:09:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: in bronze
00:09:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ppl wouldnt suspect
00:11:21 - sTaGaming to ALL: macro 00:11:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: good 00:11:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: <3
00:11:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: # 00:11:35 - sTaGaming to ALL: oh wait
00:11:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: u cant do anything else than 2 base allins
00:11:49 - Beastyqt to ALL: lol 00:11:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: wait i have to ask 00:11:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: how old are you? 00:12:00 - sTaGaming to ALL: 12 00:12:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: you?
00:12:14 - Beastyqt to ALL: i dont understand people like you 00:12:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: ur mummey didnt teach u manner? :/
00:12:27 - sTaGaming to ALL: neither do i understnad whiner/flamer 00:12:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: like you 00:12:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: are you that jealous of progamers that you have to do this and then talk bullshit?
00:12:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz u are terrible? 00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages 00:12:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: im tired of it 00:12:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: tell me your PRO wc3 name pls 00:12:56 - sTaGaming to ALL: and getting like 200 a month 00:12:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll ask grubby
00:13:10 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:13:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: well you got 200/month coz u are shit probably 00:13:15 - sTaGaming to ALL: i wouldnt call that profesional
00:13:23 - Beastyqt to ALL: no tell me
00:13:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: whats your WC3 name Mr. pro low masters
00:13:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: exactly what i thought
00:13:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are newbie thats jealous of sc2 pros and you do this 00:13:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: grubby knows who i am 00:13:52 - sTaGaming to ALL: im madfrog 00:13:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: you probably tell your buddies as well? 00:13:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: haha
00:14:06 - Beastyqt to ALL: madfrog quit long time ago
00:14:16 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ya 00:14:19 - Beastyqt to ALL: dont talk shit 00:14:20 - Beastyqt to ALL: kid 00:14:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: have a nice day 00:14:26 - sTaGaming to ALL: patchterra 00:14:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: with your mother.
Well that rage is well deserved.Anyone would rage if you lose to 6 pool
00:00:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: stremain? 00:00:17 - Beastyqt to ALL: no
00:00:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: ggl 00:00:58 - Beastyqt to ALL: glhf
00:03:01 - Beastyqt to ALL: really? 00:03:05 - sTaGaming to ALL: yup
00:03:28 - Beastyqt to ALL: u should 00:03:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: kill yourself 00:03:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: u qq? 00:03:38 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking cunt 00:03:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: beasty QQ?
00:04:15 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking loser 00:04:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:04:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: what you gonna do 00:04:32 - sTaGaming to ALL: less qq more pew pew 00:04:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: post on TL 00:04:38 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:04:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are fucking piece of shit 00:04:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: go post it 00:04:46 - sTaGaming to ALL: i won the mighty beastyqr 00:04:48 - sTaGaming to ALL: qt 00:04:53 - Beastyqt to ALL: you won my dick 00:04:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:05:02 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll deliver it 00:05:07 - sTaGaming to ALL: i would rage 2
00:05:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: when i would lose with patchterran :/
00:05:33 - Beastyqt to ALL: patchterran? 00:05:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: wat
00:05:42 - sTaGaming to ALL: nothing special
00:05:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: only means u wouldnt have won a single game by now 00:05:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: if you would pick another race
00:06:05 - Beastyqt to ALL: i beat kas with offraces taht i dont even play 00:06:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: hard to S+D and click fungal 00:06:12 - Beastyqt to ALL: rofl
00:06:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: and i win you with funstrats :/
00:06:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye because you cant win real game 00:06:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: good world 00:06:35 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz you are terrible 00:06:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: what are you 00:06:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: Q__Q 00:06:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: low masters? 00:06:44 - sTaGaming to ALL: dont hurt me brah 00:06:47 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:06:52 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye avoid answer you know its true
00:07:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: i like u russians
00:07:08 - sTaGaming to ALL: the once that doesnt hack 00:07:09 - sTaGaming to ALL: flame
00:07:22 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are so fucking stupid im not russian
00:07:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:07:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are so bad 00:07:31 - Beastyqt to ALL: and stupid 00:07:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: its the same :/
00:09:16 - sTaGaming to ALL: beastyQQ 00:09:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: will be my next acc
00:09:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: kk
00:09:46 - Beastyqt to ALL: Tardgaming will be my smurf 00:09:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: in bronze
00:09:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ppl wouldnt suspect
00:11:21 - sTaGaming to ALL: macro 00:11:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: good 00:11:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: <3
00:11:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: # 00:11:35 - sTaGaming to ALL: oh wait
00:11:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: u cant do anything else than 2 base allins
00:11:49 - Beastyqt to ALL: lol 00:11:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: wait i have to ask 00:11:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: how old are you? 00:12:00 - sTaGaming to ALL: 12 00:12:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: you?
00:12:14 - Beastyqt to ALL: i dont understand people like you 00:12:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: ur mummey didnt teach u manner? :/
00:12:27 - sTaGaming to ALL: neither do i understnad whiner/flamer 00:12:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: like you 00:12:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: are you that jealous of progamers that you have to do this and then talk bullshit?
00:12:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz u are terrible? 00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages 00:12:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: im tired of it 00:12:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: tell me your PRO wc3 name pls 00:12:56 - sTaGaming to ALL: and getting like 200 a month 00:12:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll ask grubby
00:13:10 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:13:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: well you got 200/month coz u are shit probably 00:13:15 - sTaGaming to ALL: i wouldnt call that profesional
00:13:23 - Beastyqt to ALL: no tell me
00:13:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: whats your WC3 name Mr. pro low masters
00:13:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: exactly what i thought
00:13:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are newbie thats jealous of sc2 pros and you do this 00:13:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: grubby knows who i am 00:13:52 - sTaGaming to ALL: im madfrog 00:13:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: you probably tell your buddies as well? 00:13:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: haha
00:14:06 - Beastyqt to ALL: madfrog quit long time ago
00:14:16 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ya 00:14:19 - Beastyqt to ALL: dont talk shit 00:14:20 - Beastyqt to ALL: kid 00:14:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: have a nice day 00:14:26 - sTaGaming to ALL: patchterra 00:14:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: with your mother.
Well that rage is well deserved.Anyone would rage if you lose to 6 pool
why?^^ How is 6 pool different from all different strong all-ins terran can do?
I got to masters league from proxy 2 gate and 4 gate alone. I only play ~5 games a week or less.
6 pooling has become incredibly popular on the korean/taiwan server. You have the potential to do so much damage and prevent so much mining time, that you can drone behind it and expand before they even kill all your lings. It is actually one of the most imbalanced things you can do in the game. Most people get the feeling that you have to win with the first 6 lings that you send, or else you have no chance of winning. This is not true at all. It is possible to win with it, but all you have to do is prevent as much mining time as possible and pick off probes when you can.
Also why the hell are people still saying "loose" ...come on it's been long enough lol
00:00:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: stremain? 00:00:17 - Beastyqt to ALL: no
00:00:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: ggl 00:00:58 - Beastyqt to ALL: glhf
00:03:01 - Beastyqt to ALL: really? 00:03:05 - sTaGaming to ALL: yup
00:03:28 - Beastyqt to ALL: u should 00:03:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: kill yourself 00:03:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: u qq? 00:03:38 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking cunt 00:03:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: beasty QQ?
00:04:15 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking loser 00:04:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:04:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: what you gonna do 00:04:32 - sTaGaming to ALL: less qq more pew pew 00:04:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: post on TL 00:04:38 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:04:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are fucking piece of shit 00:04:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: go post it 00:04:46 - sTaGaming to ALL: i won the mighty beastyqr 00:04:48 - sTaGaming to ALL: qt 00:04:53 - Beastyqt to ALL: you won my dick 00:04:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:05:02 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll deliver it 00:05:07 - sTaGaming to ALL: i would rage 2
00:05:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: when i would lose with patchterran :/
00:05:33 - Beastyqt to ALL: patchterran? 00:05:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: wat
00:05:42 - sTaGaming to ALL: nothing special
00:05:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: only means u wouldnt have won a single game by now 00:05:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: if you would pick another race
00:06:05 - Beastyqt to ALL: i beat kas with offraces taht i dont even play 00:06:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: hard to S+D and click fungal 00:06:12 - Beastyqt to ALL: rofl
00:06:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: and i win you with funstrats :/
00:06:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye because you cant win real game 00:06:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: good world 00:06:35 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz you are terrible 00:06:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: what are you 00:06:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: Q__Q 00:06:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: low masters? 00:06:44 - sTaGaming to ALL: dont hurt me brah 00:06:47 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:06:52 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye avoid answer you know its true
00:07:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: i like u russians
00:07:08 - sTaGaming to ALL: the once that doesnt hack 00:07:09 - sTaGaming to ALL: flame
00:07:22 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are so fucking stupid im not russian
00:07:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:07:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are so bad 00:07:31 - Beastyqt to ALL: and stupid 00:07:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: its the same :/
00:09:16 - sTaGaming to ALL: beastyQQ 00:09:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: will be my next acc
00:09:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: kk
00:09:46 - Beastyqt to ALL: Tardgaming will be my smurf 00:09:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: in bronze
00:09:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ppl wouldnt suspect
00:11:21 - sTaGaming to ALL: macro 00:11:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: good 00:11:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: <3
00:11:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: # 00:11:35 - sTaGaming to ALL: oh wait
00:11:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: u cant do anything else than 2 base allins
00:11:49 - Beastyqt to ALL: lol 00:11:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: wait i have to ask 00:11:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: how old are you? 00:12:00 - sTaGaming to ALL: 12 00:12:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: you?
00:12:14 - Beastyqt to ALL: i dont understand people like you 00:12:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: ur mummey didnt teach u manner? :/
00:12:27 - sTaGaming to ALL: neither do i understnad whiner/flamer 00:12:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: like you 00:12:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: are you that jealous of progamers that you have to do this and then talk bullshit?
00:12:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz u are terrible? 00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages 00:12:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: im tired of it 00:12:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: tell me your PRO wc3 name pls 00:12:56 - sTaGaming to ALL: and getting like 200 a month 00:12:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll ask grubby
00:13:10 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:13:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: well you got 200/month coz u are shit probably 00:13:15 - sTaGaming to ALL: i wouldnt call that profesional
00:13:23 - Beastyqt to ALL: no tell me
00:13:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: whats your WC3 name Mr. pro low masters
00:13:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: exactly what i thought
00:13:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are newbie thats jealous of sc2 pros and you do this 00:13:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: grubby knows who i am 00:13:52 - sTaGaming to ALL: im madfrog 00:13:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: you probably tell your buddies as well? 00:13:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: haha
00:14:06 - Beastyqt to ALL: madfrog quit long time ago
00:14:16 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ya 00:14:19 - Beastyqt to ALL: dont talk shit 00:14:20 - Beastyqt to ALL: kid 00:14:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: have a nice day 00:14:26 - sTaGaming to ALL: patchterra 00:14:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: with your mother.
Well that rage is well deserved.Anyone would rage if you lose to 6 pool
Deliberately provoking people with offensive ggs and lame comments during and after having secured a cheap win against them. Complaining about people not remaining mannered after you drone rush them and call gg against them, then ragequitting and claiming imbalance or blaming latency (without gg'ing) when people hold off your shenanigans. Classy.
First zerg ever to complain about close spawns being disabled...
On another note.. I personally dont see the point in 6-pooling on the ladder. Ladder only counts for so much, and you get nothing out of 6-pooling on the ladder. You might as well play longer games for the practice.
At lower levels (i.e. platinum, diamond and master) EU is faaaaaaaar superior to NA, when i was in platinum and playing in a NA tournament bronze - diamond, i raped everyone except the final and i came away with 2nd place. When i was in diamond on EU, i was raping masters on NA, pretty easily i might add, and in big 30 minute macro games. Not sure about GM but <GM definitely EU>NA.
On November 09 2011 05:39 RaKooNs wrote: At lower levels (i.e. platinum, diamond and master) EU is faaaaaaaar superior to NA, when i was in platinum and playing in a NA tournament bronze - diamond, i raped everyone except the final and i came away with 2nd place. When i was in diamond on EU, i was raping masters on NA, pretty easily i might add, and in big 30 minute macro games. Not sure about GM but <GM definitely EU>NA.
On the topic of 6 pooling, I feel like your analysis would be reversed. Just a feeling, but as a player on both servers I have a fairly strong conviction that pre-GM, NA players are far more likely to cheese on ladder. Since the number of times you've been 6 pooled strongly correlates with how good you are at holding it off, I'd argue that lower-level NA players are on-the-whole better prepared to hold off a fast pool build.
On November 09 2011 05:42 freetgy wrote: both terran and zerg have cheeses that get you into GM
name me one protoss stratagy that gets you consistently into masters.
And protoss is considered the cheesy race ?...
6 gate all-in, proxy 2 gate, 4 gate (yes, it still works,) DT rush...
Not saying... just saying.
I'd wager a fair sum that I could get into masters league DT rushing every single game, but fortunately for me I'm Zerg and have better things to do with my time than cheesing on ladder. You should too; don't complain!
100% reliant on not scouting/not knowing the response. Sad to see players at the top level aren't trained vs this at all...
exactly my thoughts.
i dont know why you would spend that much time on 6pooling on ladder, but well, live and let live ^^
Well he did say it was for a bet, which he won. This is my saddest fact that it worked. Still, I wonder if he could stay in GM once everyone knows he 6 pools every game.
Also, I am bothered by the whole "scouting and responding correctly = auto win". That is the standard TL response of "once I see a 6 pool, I just cue the correct commands and go make a sandwhich." You opponent can still out play you and this thread proves that you have every possibility of losing.
On November 09 2011 05:45 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I hate 6 pool; can't wait for HoTS to add that Nexus adding damage to building spell to just end it.
But this guide is pretty awesome and I never knew about the hold position trick. Good thread and useful info for all
You're right that the hold position trick is pretty cool, but did he have to embed it in a 6 pooling guide? I'd be much happier to see it in a stand alone guide, with a list of applications, not limited to but INCLUDING 6 pools.
100% reliant on not scouting/not knowing the response. Sad to see players at the top level aren't trained vs this at all...
exactly my thoughts.
i dont know why you would spend that much time on 6pooling on ladder, but well, live and let live ^^
Well he did say it was for a bet, which he won. This is my saddest fact that it worked. Still, I wonder if he could stay in GM once everyone knows he 6 pools every game.
Also, I am bothered by the whole "scouting and responding correctly = auto win". That is the standard TL response of "once I see a 6 pool, I just cue the correct commands and go make a sandwhich." You opponent can still out play you and this thread proves that you have every possibility of losing.
Yeah, of course you can still lose, but... look at it this way.
I play a ZvT. Because I'm a fairly standard player in early game ZvT, I open 15/15 hatch/pool. I would have no problem telling my Terran opponent that I planned to do this right from the start of the game, because I'm confident in my ability to defend my early expansion cost effectively from literally every option he has to threaten me, even an 11/11. However, if I enter the same game and, rather than going 15/15, open with a 6 pool, and my opponent knows about it, I will lose essentially 100% of the time, because he can still build order counter me.
Take that into a realistic setting. I'm a grandmaster player who gets matched against the same, relatively small pool of players every time I ladder (this is not true, but hypothetical.) I 6 pool in every single match, so my opponents know to expect it from me; they will always build order counter my 6 pool with an early wall off in the case of ZvT or ZvP, or an 11 overpool or the like in the case of ZvZ. I'm not gonna win any of my games because my opponents know I am doing something which they can counter directly. But, if I'm a grandmaster in the same situation who goes for a fast expand (safely) every game, my opponents may very well be aware that I'm going to be taking an early expansion, but they can NOT take a free win based solely on that knowledge. Therein lies the crucial difference between "cheesy" and "solid."
I honestly don't know whether I'm more impressed with your cheese skills or white-ra's manner. Both are as unbelievable as that bull-riding monkey I saw.
Could have been a fun thread like the 3 rax supply calldown build that was popular a couple of months ago. The BM and overall cockyness of the OP kinda ruins it though.
On November 09 2011 05:45 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I hate 6 pool; can't wait for HoTS to add that Nexus adding damage to building spell to just end it.
But this guide is pretty awesome and I never knew about the hold position trick. Good thread and useful info for all
You're right that the hold position trick is pretty cool, but did he have to embed it in a 6 pooling guide? I'd be much happier to see it in a stand alone guide, with a list of applications, not limited to but INCLUDING 6 pools.
100% reliant on not scouting/not knowing the response. Sad to see players at the top level aren't trained vs this at all...
exactly my thoughts.
i dont know why you would spend that much time on 6pooling on ladder, but well, live and let live ^^
Well he did say it was for a bet, which he won. This is my saddest fact that it worked. Still, I wonder if he could stay in GM once everyone knows he 6 pools every game.
Also, I am bothered by the whole "scouting and responding correctly = auto win". That is the standard TL response of "once I see a 6 pool, I just cue the correct commands and go make a sandwhich." You opponent can still out play you and this thread proves that you have every possibility of losing.
Yeah, of course you can still lose, but... look at it this way.
I play a ZvT. Because I'm a fairly standard player in early game ZvT, I open 15/15 hatch/pool. I would have no problem telling my Terran opponent that I planned to do this right from the start of the game, because I'm confident in my ability to defend my early expansion cost effectively from literally every option he has to threaten me, even an 11/11. However, if I enter the same game and, rather than going 15/15, open with a 6 pool, and my opponent knows about it, I will lose essentially 100% of the time, because he can still build order counter me.
Take that into a realistic setting. I'm a grandmaster player who gets matched against the same, relatively small pool of players every time I ladder (this is not true, but hypothetical.) I 6 pool in every single match, so my opponents know to expect it from me; they will always build order counter my 6 pool with an early wall off in the case of ZvT or ZvP, or an 11 overpool or the like in the case of ZvZ. I'm not gonna win any of my games because my opponents know I am doing something which they can counter directly. But, if I'm a grandmaster in the same situation who goes for a fast expand (safely) every game, my opponents may very well be aware that I'm going to be taking an early expansion, but they can NOT take a free win based solely on that knowledge. Therein lies the crucial difference between "cheesy" and "solid."
its basicly as you say, most of my oponnents do know i tend to cheese. still my dronerush mix in can throw them off. cutting worker against it is not the best thing to do :o
This Thread is amazing im going to get into GM doing this on NA ..... LOL I'm really good at 8 pool all in in ZvZ's i bet i could get GM with this Thank you OP ! :D
The only real measure of skill, in my opinion, is tournament format. This is where real competition happens, and where money is made.
Your success doesn't mean anything because it'll never take you anywhere. Sure you might get wins, but if you enter tournaments everyone will crush you. By reading your post, you can see that this is still a coin flip, If an opponent knows who you are, he will blind counter you.
This thread was still helpful, however. It shows that you can be GM and still be a trash player by relying on "surprise" rather than skill. If you make it to the MLG championship bracket, then we'll talk skill.
Some people think getting to GM matters playing standard, some people think it matters using drophacks and some people think it matters using only 6 pool. Live and let live..
Just kidding. Not saying it's bad ladder build, but it won't help you in tournaments against players who know it's coming. Of course you could mind game and not do it, but you spend so much time doing this build that your other builds are not close to being up to par.
00:00:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: stremain? 00:00:17 - Beastyqt to ALL: no
00:00:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: ggl 00:00:58 - Beastyqt to ALL: glhf
00:03:01 - Beastyqt to ALL: really? 00:03:05 - sTaGaming to ALL: yup
00:03:28 - Beastyqt to ALL: u should 00:03:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: kill yourself 00:03:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: u qq? 00:03:38 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking cunt 00:03:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: beasty QQ?
00:04:15 - Beastyqt to ALL: fucking loser 00:04:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:04:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: what you gonna do 00:04:32 - sTaGaming to ALL: less qq more pew pew 00:04:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: post on TL 00:04:38 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:04:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are fucking piece of shit 00:04:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: go post it 00:04:46 - sTaGaming to ALL: i won the mighty beastyqr 00:04:48 - sTaGaming to ALL: qt 00:04:53 - Beastyqt to ALL: you won my dick 00:04:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: nice manner
00:05:02 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll deliver it 00:05:07 - sTaGaming to ALL: i would rage 2
00:05:13 - sTaGaming to ALL: when i would lose with patchterran :/
00:05:33 - Beastyqt to ALL: patchterran? 00:05:34 - Beastyqt to ALL: wat
00:05:42 - sTaGaming to ALL: nothing special
00:05:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: only means u wouldnt have won a single game by now 00:05:54 - sTaGaming to ALL: if you would pick another race
00:06:05 - Beastyqt to ALL: i beat kas with offraces taht i dont even play 00:06:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: hard to S+D and click fungal 00:06:12 - Beastyqt to ALL: rofl
00:06:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: and i win you with funstrats :/
00:06:32 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye because you cant win real game 00:06:34 - sTaGaming to ALL: good world 00:06:35 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz you are terrible 00:06:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: what are you 00:06:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: Q__Q 00:06:42 - Beastyqt to ALL: low masters? 00:06:44 - sTaGaming to ALL: dont hurt me brah 00:06:47 - sTaGaming to ALL: yes 00:06:52 - Beastyqt to ALL: ye avoid answer you know its true
00:07:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: i like u russians
00:07:08 - sTaGaming to ALL: the once that doesnt hack 00:07:09 - sTaGaming to ALL: flame
00:07:22 - Beastyqt to ALL: you are so fucking stupid im not russian
00:07:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:07:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are so bad 00:07:31 - Beastyqt to ALL: and stupid 00:07:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: its the same :/
00:09:16 - sTaGaming to ALL: beastyQQ 00:09:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: will be my next acc
00:09:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: kk
00:09:46 - Beastyqt to ALL: Tardgaming will be my smurf 00:09:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: in bronze
00:09:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ppl wouldnt suspect
00:11:21 - sTaGaming to ALL: macro 00:11:22 - sTaGaming to ALL: good 00:11:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: <3
00:11:33 - sTaGaming to ALL: # 00:11:35 - sTaGaming to ALL: oh wait
00:11:41 - sTaGaming to ALL: u cant do anything else than 2 base allins
00:11:49 - Beastyqt to ALL: lol 00:11:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: wait i have to ask 00:11:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: how old are you? 00:12:00 - sTaGaming to ALL: 12 00:12:01 - sTaGaming to ALL: you?
00:12:14 - Beastyqt to ALL: i dont understand people like you 00:12:17 - sTaGaming to ALL: ur mummey didnt teach u manner? :/
00:12:27 - sTaGaming to ALL: neither do i understnad whiner/flamer 00:12:29 - sTaGaming to ALL: like you 00:12:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: are you that jealous of progamers that you have to do this and then talk bullshit?
00:12:39 - Beastyqt to ALL: coz u are terrible? 00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages 00:12:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: im tired of it 00:12:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: tell me your PRO wc3 name pls 00:12:56 - sTaGaming to ALL: and getting like 200 a month 00:12:57 - Beastyqt to ALL: i'll ask grubby
00:13:10 - sTaGaming to ALL: well 00:13:11 - Beastyqt to ALL: well you got 200/month coz u are shit probably 00:13:15 - sTaGaming to ALL: i wouldnt call that profesional
00:13:23 - Beastyqt to ALL: no tell me
00:13:30 - Beastyqt to ALL: whats your WC3 name Mr. pro low masters
00:13:40 - Beastyqt to ALL: exactly what i thought
00:13:48 - Beastyqt to ALL: u are newbie thats jealous of sc2 pros and you do this 00:13:49 - sTaGaming to ALL: grubby knows who i am 00:13:52 - sTaGaming to ALL: im madfrog 00:13:54 - Beastyqt to ALL: you probably tell your buddies as well? 00:13:55 - sTaGaming to ALL: haha
00:14:06 - Beastyqt to ALL: madfrog quit long time ago
00:14:16 - Beastyqt to ALL: so ya 00:14:19 - Beastyqt to ALL: dont talk shit 00:14:20 - Beastyqt to ALL: kid 00:14:23 - sTaGaming to ALL: have a nice day 00:14:26 - sTaGaming to ALL: patchterra 00:14:29 - Beastyqt to ALL: with your mother.
Well that rage is well deserved.Anyone would rage if you lose to 6 pool
On November 09 2011 07:24 Mithridates wrote: Kudos to WhiteRa for not flaming you. Especially when you were gloating about it. Hes probably pissed that you are wasting his practice time
On November 09 2011 07:46 jarrydesque wrote: Interesting thread but your BM is appalling. Is it too much to ask to show some of the most esteemed members of our community a bit of respect?
I totally agree, if you went to a tournament you wouldn't make it past the second round because after destroying your opponents economy and you went back to macro, it was awful, multiple supply blocks. 6 pooling is a strat but not one that can be duplicated time and time again without anonymity, nor is it the only strat you should have ready. Your micro was good but your BM is appalling. I also cheese once in a while, but if I played huk and he did that dancing thing, I would change my strat, you ever feel bad for doing this?
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
This was written by a non english native speaker, u speak german? no? then u know what to do...
On November 09 2011 06:52 XRaDiiX wrote: This Thread is amazing im going to get into GM doing this on NA ..... LOL I'm really good at 8 pool all in in ZvZ's i bet i could get GM with this Thank you OP ! :D
I remember you from lzgamer's stream chat. You think 8 pool beats 14 14 "80% of the time" and you're only low low master so you have a long ways to go
nice guide but you should really manner up :/ saying things like "i fucked your mom" and preemptive gging some of the most respected members of the community is pretty sad
On November 09 2011 01:35 Bad_Habit wrote: I’ve played a ton of 6pools up until now, and I fell in love with the strat. I really enjoy when people flame me and pretend I’m the BM guy just because I played 6pool (how does that make sense? O_O)
Well, it makes sense because you're essentially challenging someone to a race, and only informing them after the race has started that the finish line was actually 20 yards the other direction. Kiinda a dick move :D
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
No, a foreigner.
Tell me, how good is your German?
I wasn't even cognizant of any problem with the OPs delivery until I read this page :<
Manners khaosis, the world is polite enough to use English on TL. We should be polite enough to not complain at the occasional misstep (Especially factoring in how many native English speakers write poorly :hint hint me
Anyway- lol. So gosu, the king of the fast pool. Cheese master. Lord of the Cheaplings. A very amusing guide and I won't lie I checked the information against my own cheesy pools to compare what I could do better.
00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages
hahaha right :D
anyway would have been kind of funny if it wasnt for the bm every game (even if your opponent doesnt bm) so i stopped watching after 3-4 replays, just too embarassing
On November 09 2011 08:55 samuraibael wrote: Was possible to get to B on iccup with simple cheeses?
I reached B by playing only ZvZ Medusa 9 hatch 9 pool 9 gas. Cheesing was very powerful tbh, really reminded me on 4 gate in beta really. Someone who's played the game for a week can demolish players with cheese like 4 pool that have been playing for 6 months at C-/D+ level with a solid 50% winrate on smaller maps like python.
Well, as long as you have fun playing the game I guess. I can't say I approve of the BM, but it's good to have some cheesers on the ladder so that people can get practice and experience playing against all styles of play.
Theres some cheese for you that will win 60% of your games.
With the exception of VR all in and proxy two gate you're just naming pushes. Blink stalkers aren't cheese, they're a timing. 3 gate immortal isn't cheese its a timing. I'm so tired of this attitude that any protoss timing is a cheesy all-in. Most of these can be expanded behind (even 4 gate) and easily lead to a macro game. Not the same as pulling all your workers. They can also be held if properly scouted.
Theres some cheese for you that will win 60% of your games.
With the exception of VR all in and proxy two gate you're just naming pushes. Blink stalkers aren't cheese, they're a timing. 3 gate immortal isn't cheese its a timing. I'm so tired of this attitude that any protoss timing is a cheesy all-in. Most of these can be expanded behind (even 4 gate) and easily lead to a macro game. Not the same as pulling all your workers. They can also be held if properly scouted.
Mass marine builds can also be expanded behind, what's your point? Just because you can behind behind it doesn't mean its not cheese, because if your 3 gate immortal or blink stalker push fails, you pretty much lose.
Might have been a great post, but, you write like an illiterate five year old. It was painful to read, if you're going to put all the time and effort of writing this up and attaching replays, at least make it presentable. Other than that there is a lot of useful information here, I see you have put time into developing these strategies and I thank you for sharing them.
Also, although it is cool you beat Stephano and all, but please don't share replays where the other play makes an absurdly late pool and instantly GG's upon seeing your 6p.
This reminds me of someone who said "this is f****** 6pool, what you expect?" after a failed attempt to 6pool in a custom game. =] I have always found it hard to execute, its nice to know that there are lots of techniques behind it.
ok so you made the discovery that 6pool can win you games - and now?
what you gonna do with it? you are now stuck in high masters/eventually gm with actually no and experience in macro games, will that win you tournaments? no. will that win you anything? no. so what is it for - just to troll pros? win the bet against your friends?
On November 09 2011 10:41 Sansai wrote: ok so you made the discovery that 6pool can win you games - and now?
what you gonna do with it? you are now stuck in high masters/eventually gm with actually no and experience in macro games, will that win you tournaments? no. will that win you anything? no. so what is it for - just to troll pros? win the bet against your friends?
you just answered your own question. He won the bet, and that was mainly the point.
I agree that this is a cool thread. He's obviously put a lot of thought into this, and it's clear that he needs to win from behind or transition often when his strategy fails. Nobody would argue that 6pool is the ultimate best strategy for Zerg (I think?), so the fact that he can use it every time and be GM is refreshing to me. It means skill is more important than build orders.
i am a master league player and i got to say. I havent lost to 6pool in months. But if u can pull it off and win your way to grand masters means u can do it pretty good and zergs should thank you cuz u give them a way to execute one more build that could come handy. Btw whitera is so nice
On November 09 2011 10:41 Sansai wrote: ok so you made the discovery that 6pool can win you games - and now?
what you gonna do with it? you are now stuck in high masters/eventually gm with actually no and experience in macro games, will that win you tournaments? no. will that win you anything? no. so what is it for - just to troll pros? win the bet against your friends?
00:12:43 - sTaGaming to ALL: i was profesional wc3 player 00:12:45 - sTaGaming to ALL: for ages
hahaha right :D
anyway would have been kind of funny if it wasnt for the bm every game (even if your opponent doesnt bm) so i stopped watching after 3-4 replays, just too embarassing
same here, the bming was a bit too repetitive and embarasing
Yea, I like that you have refined 6 pooling, I do think some of these replays are valuable and show that maybe some openings aren't as solid as people might think. However the really classless BM you insert into every game, and the attention whoring (asking/hoping players are streaming so you can get more attention) makes me dislike this entire thread. Your build does have counters, most of the replays you're just getting lucky from good players doing their openings a little bit sloppy. Furthermore most of these replays don't really showcase any micro at all, except the fact that you benefit from the fact that retreating drones and lings in the same hot-key has great synergy ( drones move slower, so they always tank for the lings once you stop to re-engage ). This whole thing could have been done so much better by yourself, and you would have gotten a lot of notoriety for doing something kinda cool( I think it's a really cool idea), instead you're just showing how much of a classless player you are in you're desperation for attention.
Please stop BM'ing people when you're winning, for your own sake. It really makes you look bad, in reality you're just fishing for pro players to BM you back because you're desperate for attention and it shows.
On November 09 2011 10:41 Sansai wrote: ok so you made the discovery that 6pool can win you games - and now?
what you gonna do with it? you are now stuck in high masters/eventually gm with actually no and experience in macro games, will that win you tournaments? no. will that win you anything? no. so what is it for - just to troll pros? win the bet against your friends?
Wow. Say what you will about this guy, but that worker micro is pretty damn impressive, and he's clearly put a lot of thought into this. I'm impressed, though admittedly less than happy about the BM.
I don't see what players get out of cheese. I can understand why you would do it in tourney play. But not on ladder. What do you learn from this? When I first started playing SC2, I cheesed like my first 20 games lol..... then found it was the most boring thing one can do in this game wether if you win or lose.
Looking at your BM, I feel you just get kicks out of winning cheap games off classy players. Honestly, how the hell can you 6 pool to masters!?!?! Like yeah, of course you have shown it's possible, but god damn I'd be so bored of doing that build for a whole day.
The 11 overpool build is supposed to be very defensible against early pool builds. Have you been able to beat this build with your 7 pool or is it too difficult?
Been there, done that, made a post about it couple months ago.
Some guy already did an experiment 6 pool only on ladder to GM and made a TL post about it. Eventually he disappeared and now we have someone else doing the same exact thing, same experiment, same post.
On November 09 2011 13:11 W2 wrote: Been there, done that, made a post about it couple months ago.
Some guy already did an experiment 6 pool only on ladder to GM and made a TL post about it. Eventually he disappeared and now we have someone else doing the same exact thing, same experiment, same post.
But this has an interesting worker micro trick thrown in to boot which I feel will add a lot to early worker defense and attacks alike.
I tried this and went 3-2 (vs 3x zergs 1x toss and 1x terran, the two losses were vs. Z and were both close by air) in plat on my alt acct lol... the bm you get is actually pretty hilarious.
Also something to take into consideration is these games are superrr quick... I played the 5 games in less than a half hour...
On November 09 2011 13:11 W2 wrote: Been there, done that, made a post about it couple months ago.
Some guy already did an experiment 6 pool only on ladder to GM and made a TL post about it. Eventually he disappeared and now we have someone else doing the same exact thing, same experiment, same post.
But this has an interesting worker micro trick thrown in to boot which I feel will add a lot to early worker defense and attacks alike.
Yeah that's great. Not saying he can't open a new thread, I was just taking a jab at the OP because he thinks he's hot shit when there are tons of "GET GM WITH 3rax/6pool/4gate GUIDE" floating around TL.
The link between personality and strategy is strong with this one.
Someone should seriously explore this relationship, cause I can very very often tell from things people write in game, even at the start, how they will most likely play. Things like cheeses, very risky plays, or micro-intensive builds surprisingly often happen after the opponent is either really talkative or just mad for no reason.
Thankyou very useful the little details u describe are something people really need to consider in alot of scenarios. It only shows the numerous roads that lead to Rome.
Oh yeah, there is a somewhat blind counter this. If you're FFEing put a pylon behind the mineral lines just in case there is an early pool. I first saw this special tactic on White-Ra's stream. Pretty simple solution, safe and greedy :D
tbh i dont get mad when i lose to 6pool because you could of always played better otherwise you would of won the drone version of 6pool + all drones can be frustrating cus its even harder but as long as this guy is one of the few who does it ladder is fine. if theres more than 30-50people who do this and are as good as him then ladder will become a waste of time ^- ^
Theres some cheese for you that will win 60% of your games.
With the exception of VR all in and proxy two gate you're just naming pushes. Blink stalkers aren't cheese, they're a timing. 3 gate immortal isn't cheese its a timing. I'm so tired of this attitude that any protoss timing is a cheesy all-in. Most of these can be expanded behind (even 4 gate) and easily lead to a macro game. Not the same as pulling all your workers. They can also be held if properly scouted.
Mass marine builds can also be expanded behind, what's your point? Just because you can behind behind it doesn't mean its not cheese, because if your 3 gate immortal or blink stalker push fails, you pretty much lose.
You don't expand behind a mass marine build where you pull 70% of your SCVs, which is the cheese version of that build. You don't lose if you don't straight up kill a zerg with blink stalkers. You do against Terran, but blink vs terran is just a bad idea 99% of the time. You also don't lose if an immortal push fails. You're usually on two base with solid tech, as long as it wasn't a donate your army for free sort of thing you aren't out.
My point is you listed STANDARD protoss play as OMG CHEESE!!!1!. Stop that shit, its annoying.
This is so awesome. Please, please, please try to get some tournament results out of this! :D:D:D I love what you've done and are doing and how well it's working. Way to beat the system. ^_^
Damn, this is some in depth 6 pool strat. I like it White-ra took that better than anyone I've ever seen take a 6-pool/drone rush. More reason to love the guy
im very sorry for bming some of the players, not all tho.
but it sometimes gets frustrating when u get bmed every single game just because u do a strat other ppl dont like so i basicly started to bm first so they at least have a reason to bm me >.> weird reasoning probably but mb some of you will understand^^
I must admit I was pretty surpised at the white-ra game. I think whitera tried too hard to micro. GJ though, although 6pool to GM is pretty unexpected. Out of curiosity what is your winrate against Terran?
SCV>Drone>Probe in 1v1 fight. White-Ra had the completely wrong response there. Should have chrono'd out workers, and tried to pick off drones while they hit his nexus. Should have enough money to make enough to win, plus have to use regen shield micro.
Nice stuff. Can you give some tips on how to hold 6 pool, better, when going hatch first? Do you think it's better for the person to run away or just a-move with their drones (micro of course helps, just saying) in the open? What about spines? Should a hatch first player try to built spines, and how should they deal with a morphing spine?
Also, wtf is a tower? I have tried figuring out through context clues but can't. Some of your english is kind of hard to get through, but tower is really confusing o_O
This is pretty legit stuff, I've actually been fucking around with 'safe 7pools' lately. Which is pretty precise build relying on scouting and reacting.
What bothers me about this is how it plays on the weakness of zerg... like you almost must 14 pool or hatch first to remain competitive... therefore anything else is crazy and does not contribute to you getting better. You see pros losing to this complaining about it.... Anyone can do this... (Is not really true either)
Theres some cheese for you that will win 60% of your games.
With the exception of VR all in and proxy two gate you're just naming pushes. Blink stalkers aren't cheese, they're a timing. 3 gate immortal isn't cheese its a timing. I'm so tired of this attitude that any protoss timing is a cheesy all-in. Most of these can be expanded behind (even 4 gate) and easily lead to a macro game. Not the same as pulling all your workers. They can also be held if properly scouted.
Mass marine builds can also be expanded behind, what's your point? Just because you can behind behind it doesn't mean its not cheese, because if your 3 gate immortal or blink stalker push fails, you pretty much lose.
You don't expand behind a mass marine build where you pull 70% of your SCVs, which is the cheese version of that build. You don't lose if you don't straight up kill a zerg with blink stalkers. You do against Terran, but blink vs terran is just a bad idea 99% of the time. You also don't lose if an immortal push fails. You're usually on two base with solid tech, as long as it wasn't a donate your army for free sort of thing you aren't out.
My point is you listed STANDARD protoss play as OMG CHEESE!!!1!. Stop that shit, its annoying.
Do you even play the game??
The 3 gate immortal and blink stalker builds are definitly NOT standard play, they are ALL-IN's. You don't expand when going for an immortal all-in vs Terran... It's all on 1 base, and you WILL be behind if you don't kill them.
Seriously??? Void ray all-ins, 3 gate immortal, and blink stalkers are NOT standard at all. They are CHEESE. You obvioulsy know nothing about the game.
On November 09 2011 14:43 Belial88 wrote: SCV>Drone>Probe in 1v1 fight. White-Ra had the completely wrong response there. Should have chrono'd out workers, and tried to pick off drones while they hit his nexus. Should have enough money to make enough to win, plus have to use regen shield micro.
Nice stuff. Can you give some tips on how to hold 6 pool, better, when going hatch first? Do you think it's better for the person to run away or just a-move with their drones (micro of course helps, just saying) in the open? What about spines? Should a hatch first player try to built spines, and how should they deal with a morphing spine?
Also, wtf is a tower? I have tried figuring out through context clues but can't. Some of your english is kind of hard to get through, but tower is really confusing o_O
by tower i mean bunker, spine, or cannon. sorry im used to simply the word tower because of wc3^^
ill write something about how to counter it decent taday in the evening. basicly the best thing you can do is moving ur drones to a mineralpatch that is inbetween 2 other mineralpatches. keep spamming move command (right click) on this mineralpatch. by this he cant do anything because as soon as he wants to fight there u attackmove out of this and will oneshot a ling because all the drones will attack even tho they are in exactly the same spot. its basicly what you see in the video below only for defense purpose
if someone knows what i mean i would appreciate it if he could play a game against a friend and does this and makes a vod out of it so i can use it in the mainpost.
What bothers me about this is how it plays on the weakness of zerg... like you almost must 14 pool or hatch first to remain competitive... therefore anything else is crazy and does not contribute to you getting better. You see pros losing to this complaining about it.... Anyone can do this... (Is not really true either)
But meh. Great set of replays...
Be good. When you understand why you reje
huh? He just said that hatch first was hard to deal with when going 6 pool. Apparently his version of the 6 pool isn't meant specifically for hatch first, but 14/14 and I guess 'anything' zerg can do. And I don't know what's so crazy about 14 pool and hatch first, both are very safe and conservative builds. Why would you prefer to 10 pool when you can hatch first?
ill write something about how to counter it decent taday in the evening. basicly the best thing you can do is moving ur drones to a mineralpatch that is inbetween 2 other mineralpatches. keep spamming move command (right click) on this mineralpatch. by this he cant do anything because as soon as he wants to fight there u attackmove out of this and will oneshot a ling because all the drones will attack even tho they are in exactly the same spot. its basicly what you see in the video below only for defense purpose
ah quite original lol! Nice. What about dealing with spines (ie how does hatch firster defend against them or address them, and should they make their own).
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
The thing is, it is not really cheese, it is more like fun/art at high level.
We should all really cheese before learning macro games.
You don't have the right to discuss your macro superiority if you can't get passed the early game without a opponent leaving you alone. There's something to gain from all styles of play, whether it be microing small engagements or making lots of workers.
Imagine if Idra drop his whole personal rule set and properly learned to six pool. You might see his micro management go from "non exsistant" to damn good. Miracles however are not likely occurances.
On November 09 2011 16:06 Bananasword01 wrote: We should all really cheese before learning macro games.
You don't have the right to discuss your macro superiority if you can't get passed the early game without a opponent leaving you alone. There's something to gain from all styles of play, whether it be microing small engagements or making lots of workers.
Imagine if Idra drop his whole personal rule set and properly learned to six pool. You might see his micro management go from "non exsistant" to damn good. Miracles however are not likely occurances.
lol cheesing yourself doesn't help you defend against it if its all you do playing against it is how to improve not just 6 pool and be like "well this helps me!" lol.
very bm chat and very bm playstyle. we can all agree that it is bm to do this, especially on ladder. no matter how much people like to hide it, we all know it. op if you read this, i'm very disappointed and especially disgusted in your decision to flaunt this here for attention/pride. why are you teaching people to 6pool...[2] i was also surprised when you called people bm for being upset when you did this to them. is it worth inflicting emotional pain on people for wins like this? maybe focus more on having fun and less on taking advantage of people in desperate attempt for wins.
On November 09 2011 16:06 Bananasword01 wrote: We should all really cheese before learning macro games.
You don't have the right to discuss your macro superiority if you can't get passed the early game without a opponent leaving you alone. There's something to gain from all styles of play, whether it be microing small engagements or making lots of workers.
Imagine if Idra drop his whole personal rule set and properly learned to six pool. You might see his micro management go from "non exsistant" to damn good. Miracles however are not likely occurances.
lol cheesing yourself doesn't help you defend against it if its all you do playing against it is how to improve not just 6 pool and be like "well this helps me!" lol.
By cheesing you'll learn similar small scale T1 micro required to defend the same cheese when you start playing macro games.
i.e. If you're winning by crossing the map with drones and microing them, then you'll have that skill and the defenders advantage when you're the one playing for the long game and standard.
How could you even dispute that with your blue robe on, or did you get it by making tonnes of drones?
i think his ZvT 6pool is actually extremely powerful on all maps with a rush distance less than or equal to taldar arim (which isnt saying much, however newer GSL maps seem to have a even bigger rush distance)
most terran will 9depot, 12rax, gas, OC after rax, depot after OC (completing the wall) as their standard bo
and this ZvT 6pool totally destroys that because the workers start fighting the terran right as hes trying to make that depot then lings come and can kill the rax forcing it to lift off or die, and the marine gets killed as it tries to come out, then the drones+lings kill all the terran SCV's
this type of 6pool ive never really seen before. it seems to be the strongest way to 6pool terran.
the 6pool+drones Idra did to jinro long ago in the GSL wasnt as strong as this because this one has drones attacking/harassing the 2nd depot way earlier
i think this strategy could cause a bunch of problems for terrans in tournaments trying to open 9/12+gas/OC because their zerg opponent could simply decide to use this 6pool and instant-win
however, this 6pool will auto lose to a 12/14 rax that walls the ramp with 2rax/depot. and that would be the safest terran build if you thouht your enemy might 6pool
i think the way to beat this going 9/12 is you build your depot+ rax by your CC, then if lings come you build the marine and make a bunker next to the rax and rally the rax into the bunker (does that work? i think it does) that way your marine wont die and it can go into the bunker
if your enemy doesnt 6pool, then you use 2nd depot + factory at your ramp to wall off. problem here is you have to fly your barracks to complete the wall, or probably you can just finish the wall with your third depot and not need to fly out your rax that way you dont lose rax production time
On November 09 2011 16:15 kysBad_Habit wrote: very bm chat and very bm playstyle. we can all agree that it is bm to do this, especially on ladder. no matter how much people like to hide it, we all know it. op if you read this, i'm very disappointed and especially disgusted in your decision to flaunt this here for attention/pride. why are you teaching people to 6pool...[2] i was also surprised when you called people bm for being upset when you did this to them. is it worth inflicting emotional pain on people for wins like this? maybe focus more on having fun and less on taking advantage of people in desperate attempt for wins.
You should read the guy who has this blog about drone rushing. It was spotlighted even!
By cheesing you'll learn similar small scale T1 micro required to defend the same cheese when you start playing macro games.
I don't think you know what you are talking about at all lol.
It's generally agreed that there are a lot of all-ins/cheese that are much easier to execute than defend against, like 1/1/1 and 2 rax. Even the best pros lose to 2 rax, but to execute a 2 rax is quite easy. Some things, such as Select's Shakuras 2 rax where you ramp blocks on the large ramp, or plain old ramp wall-in cannon rushes, are just plain abusive and win through flawed map design, and even regardless, are just extremely easy to execute but very tough to hold.
So... i dont think you really know what you are talking about.
There's also a lot of cheeses where micro is less important than just having the right response (you could micro like a pro with blink, stalkers, or stargate against 1/1/1, or you can just go 1 gate expand robo and hold it with no micro and take less losses). Sometimes micro is important, like knowing how to how a 6 pool when going hatch first, but you are micro'ing drones, not zerglings, so the micro is totally different.
How could you even dispute that with your blue robe on, or did you get it by making tonnes of drones?
Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something. Thx for making the game a bit more annoying.
I have come to the opinion that this is actually an OK thing to do, I think old cheeses should never be forgotten, ultimately you want your standart BO to be safe against everything and you want to be able to win even if your opponent would maphack. I think it might prevent something like the second coming of ActionJesus(Pun semi-intended). By that I mean, if pro's get cheesed every now and again they will not fall for it in a tournament, meaning we see less upsets, possibly.. So it's OK as long as you don't win this way against me. (I have a tendency to rage hard if someone wins just because I forgot something)
Also this might finally forces Protoss to build the Forge near their ramp and think of better Simcities afterwards. I always get my forge on the top of my ramp, because I got 6pooled quite often. OP, is there a way to win if I get a 13 forge at the top of my ramp? I mean I should be able to block you out completely and get a Cannon pretty fast.
And please, edit the text blocks in your spoilers so that you can read this "guide" without vomiting all over it. I really tried but always lost myself in the sheer amount of letters....
On November 09 2011 16:48 Ksyper wrote: Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something. Thx for making the game a bit more annoying.
I doubt it was ever OPs intention to become the greatest gamer of all time/win tournaments/stay Rank1 for the next 17 Months with this build
i cant believe how many trolls are eating this thread.give this guy a break,hes teaching you things noone would care to teach you.the micro tricks,the hold position trick with injured drones,the hold position trick when attacking with drones,the trick with the mineral patch between other 2 mineral patches....the ones who really disgust here are you,unthankful phylosophers stuck in bronze.
On November 09 2011 17:21 rEalGuapo wrote: Thought quite a bit about this yesterday.
I have come to the opinion that this is actually an OK thing to do, I think old cheeses should never be forgotten, ultimately you want your standart BO to be safe against everything and you want to be able to win even if your opponent would maphack. I think it might prevent something like the second coming of ActionJesus(Pun semi-intended). By that I mean, if pro's get cheesed every now and again they will not fall for it in a tournament, meaning we see less upsets, possibly.. So it's OK as long as you don't win this way against me. (I have a tendency to rage hard if someone wins just because I forgot something)
Also this might finally forces Protoss to build the Forge near their ramp and think of better Simcities afterwards. I always get my forge on the top of my ramp, because I got 6pooled quite often. OP, is there a way to win if I get a 13 forge at the top of my ramp? I mean I should be able to block you out completely and get a Cannon pretty fast.
And please, edit the text blocks in your spoilers so that you can read this "guide" without vomiting all over it. I really tried but always lost myself in the sheer amount of letters....
On November 09 2011 16:48 Ksyper wrote: Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something. Thx for making the game a bit more annoying.
I doubt it was ever OPs intention to become the greatest gamer of all time/win tournaments/stay Rank1 for the next 17 Months with this build
to beat 6pool you wanna 14forge (double chronoboosts before forge) and scout at 9 and 14 (assuming your 9 didnt find him yet)
only FFE on maps where you can wall with 2gate/forge and a single pylon. if you cant do this 6pool beats you
cut probe production at i think 16, this gives you enough minerals to finish the wall if you scout 6pool
you scout 6pool, you complete 2gate/forge wall then make a cannon behind it. zergs attack the wall, by the time a forge/gateway goes down all your probes should be there to fight/block (you wanna pull your probes at the perfect time so they arrive fast enough to block and stop a runby) to attack the lings and prevent a runby. remake wall and cannon protects it.
By cheesing you'll learn similar small scale T1 micro required to defend the same cheese when you start playing macro games.
I don't think you know what you are talking about at all lol.
It's generally agreed that there are a lot of all-ins/cheese that are much easier to execute than defend against, like 1/1/1 and 2 rax. Even the best pros lose to 2 rax, but to execute a 2 rax is quite easy. Some things, such as Select's Shakuras 2 rax where you ramp blocks on the large ramp, or plain old ramp wall-in cannon rushes, are just plain abusive and win through flawed map design, and even regardless, are just extremely easy to execute but very tough to hold.
So... i dont think you really know what you are talking about.
There's also a lot of cheeses where micro is less important than just having the right response (you could micro like a pro with blink, stalkers, or stargate against 1/1/1, or you can just go 1 gate expand robo and hold it with no micro and take less losses). Sometimes micro is important, like knowing how to how a 6 pool when going hatch first, but you are micro'ing drones, not zerglings, so the micro is totally different.
How could you even dispute that with your blue robe on, or did you get it by making tonnes of drones?
Wow. You won't last here long.
Higher Micro skill = Less requirement to commit fully to a cheese defence, allowing for you to come out of such situations well ahead. e.g. Get a cannon that can't move, or micro your T1 that can counter attack. Drones and zergling micro are not that far different and the ability to execute things on the side are precisely the same. It's like you're trying to call me out on stupidity while presenting a point that half agrees and half doesn't because of some situations... except that I claim you should do it in order to learn for the situation where micro matters, before working on standard builds that may require deviations that you may not have to fully commit to with better micro. It's all important sure but how can I be wrong to say you should start on one end of the spectrum rather than the other. Answer is objectively I'm not.
Honestly are you even trying? Also if TL bans me for calling out a blue robe I'll laugh and depart the old boys club with sufficient proof that it isn't worth my time.
Although the micro tricks are nice and useful I still think that "strats" that end the game before the 5th minute are stupid cheese and eventually they are gonna get tweaked like we have witnesed with marine building time, zealot building time, no barracks before supply depot, barracks build time increase, units(and cannons) vision up ramps ...etc. Guess no spawning pool before overlord would destroy your ranking in sc2 and turn all your builds obsolete.
On November 09 2011 17:35 Giantt wrote: Although the micro tricks are nice and useful I still think that "strats" that end the game before the 5th minute are stupid cheese and eventually they are gonna get tweaked like we have witnesed with marine building time, zealot building time, no barracks before supply depot, barracks build time increase, units(and cannons) vision up ramps ...etc. Guess no spawning pool before overlord would destroy your ranking in sc2 and turn all your builds obsolete.
i disagree with this
i feel 6pool should be viable. i think early pools should be a part of the game
meaning, if you suspect your enemy will open something greedy, you can go early pool for instant win
early rushes need to exist for safe builds to be important
i actually thought it was kind of dumb blizzard nerfs everything that beats hatch first in ZvT. rax was nerfed by 5 seconds because of 2rax rushes but i guess its blizzards game they feel hatch first should be zergs standard zvt and anything they feel is overpowered they nerf
also i think marine buildtime has never been nerfed. wasnt it always 25 seconds even in early beta?
On November 09 2011 17:21 rEalGuapo wrote: Thought quite a bit about this yesterday.
I have come to the opinion that this is actually an OK thing to do, I think old cheeses should never be forgotten, ultimately you want your standart BO to be safe against everything and you want to be able to win even if your opponent would maphack. I think it might prevent something like the second coming of ActionJesus(Pun semi-intended). By that I mean, if pro's get cheesed every now and again they will not fall for it in a tournament, meaning we see less upsets, possibly.. So it's OK as long as you don't win this way against me. (I have a tendency to rage hard if someone wins just because I forgot something)
Also this might finally forces Protoss to build the Forge near their ramp and think of better Simcities afterwards. I always get my forge on the top of my ramp, because I got 6pooled quite often. OP, is there a way to win if I get a 13 forge at the top of my ramp? I mean I should be able to block you out completely and get a Cannon pretty fast.
And please, edit the text blocks in your spoilers so that you can read this "guide" without vomiting all over it. I really tried but always lost myself in the sheer amount of letters....
On November 09 2011 16:48 Ksyper wrote: Sooner or later people are just gonna get to know your name and they will be ready for your 6 pool every time, and since you can't really outmacro them even if they place super safe you'll fade away to low master or something. Thx for making the game a bit more annoying.
I doubt it was ever OPs intention to become the greatest gamer of all time/win tournaments/stay Rank1 for the next 17 Months with this build
to beat 6pool you wanna 14forge (double chronoboosts before forge) and scout at 9 and 14 (assuming your 9 didnt find him yet)
only FFE on maps where you can wall with 2gate/forge and a single pylon. if you cant do this 6pool beats you
cut probe production at i think 16, this gives you enough minerals to finish the wall if you scout 6pool
you scout 6pool, you complete 2gate/forge wall then make a cannon behind it. zergs attack the wall, by the time a forge/gateway goes down all your probes should be there to fight/block (you wanna pull your probes at the perfect time so they arrive fast enough to block and stop a runby) to attack the lings and prevent a runby. remake wall and cannon protects it.
if you dont scout 6pool, drop nexus then cannon
I don't understand your intention, I asked if he can pull off a win even if I get forge first at the top of my ramp and you advise me on how to beat 6pool...? Guess what with a completed forge at the top of your ramp you can instantly get a Cannon and then complete the walloff with a gate, minimal probe cut required ezpz win from thereon, at least against a friend of mine who doesn't play Zerg and did like his first 6pool to test this.
Still, this is a horrible thing to do if you want to become an actual good player. Might work on ladder, but if you start playing in tournaments people will soon adopt a defensive attitude when playing against ya, and then all those hours doing 6 pools will be wasted. But as long as you don't care about that shit, go for it.
On November 09 2011 18:36 Holgerius wrote: Haha, this is funny. Good job man, grats!
Still, this is a horrible thing to do if you want to become an actual good player. Might work on ladder, but if you start playing in tournaments people will soon adopt a defensive attitude when playing against ya, and then all those hours doing 6 pools will be wasted. But as long as you don't care about that shit, go for it.
Exactly! Players knows that you can pull of a good 6 pool and play more defensively and not that greedy - that's best thing when you are playing in tournaments.
On November 09 2011 17:56 Frogis wrote: haha oh man I played you once and won.
your response "nice abuse"
ya, he is even only cheesing when offracing... played him twice on the metalopolis-koth-obs-map and first game he 6gated me with all his workers and 2nd game he 2raxed me and went on to go for some 6rax+stim rush+all workers rush. I held both and he started BMing me that I'm a cheater and couldn't know what he was doing and I'm dumb because I made spinecrawlers and I should stop abusing maphacks and teamspeak and whatever... It's his "style". He cheeses you and if it fails he BMs you. Just keep your cool with him, learn what you can/want from this guide (which is to scout early enough, even against zerg) and forget about him, because there is nothing you can learn from him when you want to have fun or improve your skill.
On November 09 2011 18:36 Holgerius wrote: Haha, this is funny. Good job man, grats!
Still, this is a horrible thing to do if you want to become an actual good player. Might work on ladder, but if you start playing in tournaments people will soon adopt a defensive attitude when playing against ya, and then all those hours doing 6 pools will be wasted. But as long as you don't care about that shit, go for it.
Exactly! Players knows that you can pull of a good 6 pool and play more defensively and not that greedy - that's best thing when you are playing in tournaments.
And then it will go into a standard game, in which the 6 pool guy will have a fuckton of less experience.
You don't need to spend a vast majority of your playing time on it to achieve what you're talking about. Jaedong mixes in 4/5-pools from time to time, especially in BoXs, and is a master of mindgames. You don't know what he's going to throw at you (unless you're Flash). But I guarantee you that he doesn't spend more than a 0.1 % of his practise time doing them. It's just a waste of time if you wanna be a good player in general.
This should be taken for what it is; a fun thing, and an interesting experiment.
On November 09 2011 18:36 Holgerius wrote: Haha, this is funny. Good job man, grats!
Still, this is a horrible thing to do if you want to become an actual good player. Might work on ladder, but if you start playing in tournaments people will soon adopt a defensive attitude when playing against ya, and then all those hours doing 6 pools will be wasted. But as long as you don't care about that shit, go for it.
Exactly! Players knows that you can pull of a good 6 pool and play more defensively and not that greedy - that's best thing when you are playing in tournaments.
Then you're assuming that he go developed macro. But yeah, I see your point. Imagine if Idra had this 6 pool skill and used it from time to time. He would be 10 times more scarier!
On November 09 2011 18:36 Holgerius wrote: Haha, this is funny. Good job man, grats!
Still, this is a horrible thing to do if you want to become an actual good player. Might work on ladder, but if you start playing in tournaments people will soon adopt a defensive attitude when playing against ya, and then all those hours doing 6 pools will be wasted. But as long as you don't care about that shit, go for it.
Exactly! Players knows that you can pull of a good 6 pool and play more defensively and not that greedy - that's best thing when you are playing in tournaments.
And then it will go into a standard game, in which the 6 pool guy will have a fuckton of less experience.
You don't need to spend a vast majority of your playing time on it to achieve what you're talking about. Jaedong mixes in 4/5-pools from time to time, especially in BoXs, and is a master of mindgames. You don't know what he's going to throw at you (unless you're Flash). But I guarantee you that he doesn't spend more than a 0.1 % of his practise time doing them. It's just a waste of time if you wanna be a good player in general.
This should be taken for what it is; a fun thing, and an interesting experiment.
OP is just an example that 6 pool can be viable strategy if executed correctly, noone says you need to do 6 pool ALL THE TIME. Thing is you can learn how to execute 6 pool well so if you are good player, you can do this strategy from time to time and when you do it you know what you are doing, and chances that you win that one game in the tournament are better if you have practiced 6 pool before and know all little timings you need to know.
On November 09 2011 18:36 Holgerius wrote: Haha, this is funny. Good job man, grats!
Still, this is a horrible thing to do if you want to become an actual good player. Might work on ladder, but if you start playing in tournaments people will soon adopt a defensive attitude when playing against ya, and then all those hours doing 6 pools will be wasted. But as long as you don't care about that shit, go for it.
Exactly! Players knows that you can pull of a good 6 pool and play more defensively and not that greedy - that's best thing when you are playing in tournaments.
And then it will go into a standard game, in which the 6 pool guy will have a fuckton of less experience.
You don't need to spend a vast majority of your playing time on it to achieve what you're talking about. Jaedong mixes in 4/5-pools from time to time, especially in BoXs, and is a master of mindgames. You don't know what he's going to throw at you (unless you're Flash). But I guarantee you that he doesn't spend more than a 0.1 % of his practise time doing them. It's just a waste of time if you wanna be a good player in general.
This should be taken for what it is; a fun thing, and an interesting experiment.
OP is just an example that 6 pool can be viable strategy if executed correctly, noone says you need to do 6 pool ALL THE TIME. Thing is you can learn how to execute 6 pool well so if you are good player, you can do this strategy from time to time and when you do it you know what you are doing, and chances that you win that one game in the tournament are better if you have practiced 6 pool before and know all little timings you need to know.
Indeed. I was not referring to throwing in cheesy stuff every now and then as mindgames in BoXs in my initial post. I do agree that it's a useful talent toi have, as a Flash-fan I have a lot of appreciation for it. I was referring to basing your entire playstyle around it.
On November 09 2011 20:26 syriuszonito wrote: Are you going to post the same thread again and again until every person on tl sees what an awsome gm player you are?
On November 09 2011 01:37 Bad_Habit wrote: before you flame, an admin told me to repost it after i add some information about the strats because the old thread had already to much hate in it. just leave the hate of this and go to my blog. feel free to flame there, i sure do care.
Don't listen to the haters Habit, you're awesome <3
I noticed that the only thing you do different with your build is basically the hold position back into attack micro so I decide to incorporate it in my game because I get 6 pooled a lot on the Korean server. It turns out that the koreans will take one of their zerglings to manually attack the low worker. Did you encounter this in GM? I'm diamond in Korea btw.
I noticed that the only thing you do different with your build is basically the hold position back into attack micro so I decide to incorporate it in my game because I get 6 pooled a lot on the Korean server. It turns out that the koreans will take one of their zerglings to manually attack the low worker. Did you encounter this in GM? I'm diamond in Korea btw.
u cant see it that fast. they are to busy using normal micro
Just throwing a post to show thank the OP and that I had a good laugh - and some embarassments too with some chatlog - watching your replays and reading your guide.
Cheesing is part of the game, and MUST be a part of it. It doesn't mean you're an overall better player, that's two different things. Boxer vs Yellow anyone ? 3 bunkers rush in a row, on the final stage, in front of thousands of people. People should deal with it and let it go, really.
I love the part about workers hold position micro, it also helps for the defense :-) So I guess you have lots of experience in lings+drone vs lings+drone micro. Let's say you enguage, if you hold position all your drones, they will switch to your lings? So that you can attack move your drones back again, while you run around with your lings, and repeat the hold position if they attack move your drones again?
I don''t think the OP actually cares about playing in tournaments. It seems to me his only purpose was to prove how strong 6 pool and drone rush actually are.
On November 09 2011 21:38 Sbrubbles wrote: I don''t think the OP actually cares about playing in tournaments. It seems to me his only purpose was to prove how strong 6 pool and drone rush actually are.
this thread brought a pretty big smile to my face. Keep it real homie. Dont let the man hold you down and fool you with those drone buildin lies! Fo'real. Sometimes before class i'll hop on ladder and just do a couple six pools for shits and giggles. Now i understand where i have gone wrong with them( Sixpool+all drones all day gogo!). I love you<3
I've always found it interesting that there appears to be double standards by Blizzard when destroying the original 4gate and the reaper completely, but left 6 pool alone which is too solid on some maps. OP says you have to play almost perfect but that's obviously not true, especially vs Protoss who get 6 pooled all the time. Arc shield is to address this kind of thing though.
On November 09 2011 21:38 Sbrubbles wrote: I don''t think the OP actually cares about playing in tournaments. It seems to me his only purpose was to prove how strong 6 pool and drone rush actually are.
and being bad manner when he loses ^^
And this. Though I think it might be far-fetched long-term plan to train people to freak out once they spot the incoming cheese.
Hahahah I was watching the GSL 15 minutes or so ago while watching some of your replays as well, and July did a 6 pool vs Puzzle in the final match of the group and failed miserably, while you were owning Huk and Hero (these 2 I was watching at the time). I think you should give him some lessons ^^
Anyway, really cool thread, I hope you decide to do some other uber cheese build and get to gm with it.
On November 09 2011 22:02 AnalThermometer wrote: I've always found it interesting that there appears to be double standards by Blizzard when destroying the original 4gate and the reaper completely, but left 6 pool alone which is too solid on some maps. OP says you have to play almost perfect but that's obviously not true, especially vs Protoss who get 6 pooled all the time. Arc shield is to address this kind of thing though.
Reaper and 4gate are not close to compareable, because people kept scouting reapers, but it was just impossible to hold and about 4gate... it was nerfed to make PvP better.
If you want to compare it to something: proxy gateways and canonrush. The later is extremly common in ZvP (bottom ramp pylon blocks often occur against pool first openings), so no need to whine about not having a "solid cheese" that can only be scouted by luck. Especially these canonrush scenarios are so strong that zergs stopped to go hatch first against protoss, so stop blaming the balance on this, when it is rather that your rushes are so strong that the anitopenings are the standard vP openings.
and yeah, zealot build time was nerfed, because proxy 2gate was THE standard opening back then
Also all in all there have been tons of rush nerfs in the beta and early starcraft days: rax requiring depots, roach nerfs, reaper nerfs, zealot nerfs, spine crawler nerfs (people running over the map with spines)
On November 09 2011 22:02 AnalThermometer wrote: I've always found it interesting that there appears to be double standards by Blizzard when destroying the original 4gate and the reaper completely, but left 6 pool alone which is too solid on some maps. OP says you have to play almost perfect but that's obviously not true, especially vs Protoss who get 6 pooled all the time. Arc shield is to address this kind of thing though.
Especially these canonrush scenarios are so strong that zergs stopped to go hatch first against protoss, so stop blaming the balance on this, when it is rather that your rushes are so strong that the anitopenings are the standard vP openings.
Lol @ flawed logic...
Your zerglings are so strong that I have to get a forge when I FE against zerg...
On November 09 2011 22:02 AnalThermometer wrote: I've always found it interesting that there appears to be double standards by Blizzard when destroying the original 4gate and the reaper completely, but left 6 pool alone which is too solid on some maps. OP says you have to play almost perfect but that's obviously not true, especially vs Protoss who get 6 pooled all the time. Arc shield is to address this kind of thing though.
Especially these canonrush scenarios are so strong that zergs stopped to go hatch first against protoss, so stop blaming the balance on this, when it is rather that your rushes are so strong that the anitopenings are the standard vP openings.
Lol @ flawed logic...
Your zerglings are so strong that I have to get a forge when I FE against zerg...
only against a 6-11overpool cheese. Against everything else you can go nexus first.
Awesome post man. We like to dismiss early game aggression as "cheese" or undesirable because it allegedly takes less skill than traditional macro play. I think it's something that every player ought to practice, the fact of the matter is this: you can't force a macro game but you can force early aggression. If you outclass me in the mid-late game but can't micro well enough to hold off my cheese, I'll beat you every time.
It's not a matter of 6pool, 2 gate, or 2 rax being overpowered, or lame, what's important is that we explore and become familiar with hyper-early aggression.
I understand that most of us find a metagame based on early-game all-ins unappealing, but we shouldn't turn a blind eye to them for aesthetic reasons.
It's not so much that you 6 pool, and whether or not the strategy is valid or not. You are insanely bad mannered towards your opponents if you fail and you also use cheap tricks such as trying to strike up a conversation and ask as much as possible while you are 6 pooling. The latter would even be illegal in most serious tournaments.
To me this just comes off as a brag thread, seeing how you carefully pick out all the heavy names to show off your 6 pool tactics. But hey, that's just me.
On November 09 2011 22:56 dignitas.merz wrote: It's not so much that you 6 pool, and whether or not the strategy is valid or not. You are insanely bad mannered towards your opponents if you fail and you also use cheap tricks such as trying to strike up a conversation and ask as much as possible while you are 6 pooling. The latter would even be illegal in most serious tournaments.
To me this just comes off as a brag thread, seeing how you carefully pick out all the heavy names to show off your 6 pool tactics. But hey, that's just me.
Yeah i actually felt that this concept was really cool, but was pretty disappointed in the BM towards opponents who sometimes had never provoked you first, like catz
yeh I wonder how many times the top players beat you and you havent posted that. Brag thread all over. If this was a a Protoss cheese we would be getting abuse
15 pages for a BM person, no problem with the strat but the BM??? really?
catz bmed me when i won him the first time. sure its not good to bm but what you guys dont know is what happened before. well you can see i have like 65% winrate so sure i lose sometimes but i do fairly well against "pros" only the "russian front" with maphack gives me a hard time ^_^
On November 09 2011 23:40 Fuhrmaaj wrote: Side-by-side on the strategy forums:
- a guide showing how to hold a hatch first in ZvP so that you can survive cannons and get into the macro phase of the game
- how to 6pool in every MU
Yep, one of those guides is an in-depth explanation of a strategy and how it succeeds at high level with perfect execution, and the other is just a trick that works against bad players. I'll let you figure out which is which ^^
On November 09 2011 23:22 Bad_Habit wrote: catz bmed me when i won him the first time. sure its not good to bm but what you guys dont know is what happened before. well you can see i have like 65% winrate so sure i lose sometimes but i do fairly well against "pros" only the "russian front" with maphack gives me a hard time ^_^
"russian front with maphack"? Dont you think that you will be very soon very known in Ladder, if you get to GM just by 6pooling? Everybody will know, that you are not able to win with anything elese at that level and so play extremely safe. They know that if they hold your 6pool they will win.
So much talent wasted... I mean, your micro is amazing and your execution is well planned but... don't you feel empty just winning games such way all the time?
For what I can see you find more rewarding teasing your oponents than winning the actual game.
If that is the case, then cheers for you, but anyway, so much talent wasted...
On November 10 2011 01:03 TheBamf wrote: Every time I want to explain the crappy side of this game I am just gonna link this thread.
Things need to be done, one should not be able to get into GM by "refining" the easiest executed build in the game.
It is not the easiest executed at all. July and idra 6 pool almost always fails is the perfect example to this.
The easy part is getting the pool done, the hard part is to win with it, and it isn't easy at all. You should go and try it for 20 games and you would be surprised how hard it is to win with it (assuming you are at higher league of cause)
don't forget to mention that the only reason you did all that is because you're simple minded, not because of challenge or a bet from imaginary friends
I remember losing to you when you 12 droned rushed me so I started 10 gating and owned you the next time. I like play like this shows that FFE is just as risky as going hatch first. I don't like though how probes suck vs 12 drone rush that is a real balance issue.
Well at least you'll be essential in getting the pool before overlord nerfed out of the game. So there's that. Shoulda happened at the same time they made rax require depot.
On November 10 2011 01:40 JustTray wrote: Well at least you'll be essential in getting the pool before overlord nerfed out of the game. So there's that. Shoulda happened at the same time they made rax require depot.
Do it, at least when I play zerg I start with an overlord
Whilst the topic about scv+rine allin into grandmaster was a rage-fest against terran, I like how this topic is all about "how skilled the op is" and "how well executed are his strats", not that on some maps and in some circustances 6 pool is broken (aka vs toss).
On November 10 2011 01:03 TheBamf wrote: Every time I want to explain the crappy side of this game I am just gonna link this thread.
Things need to be done, one should not be able to get into GM by "refining" the easiest executed build in the game.
It is not the easiest executed at all. July and idra 6 pool almost always fails is the perfect example to this.
The easy part is getting the pool done, the hard part is to win with it, and it isn't easy at all. You should go and try it for 20 games and you would be surprised how hard it is to win with it (assuming you are at higher league of cause)
Random scrub defeating code S players, not an easy build.
On November 10 2011 01:03 TheBamf wrote: Every time I want to explain the crappy side of this game I am just gonna link this thread.
Things need to be done, one should not be able to get into GM by "refining" the easiest executed build in the game.
Why not? The build isn't overpowered and it has nothing to do with the game itself. Most ladder players don't know how to defend cheese you are rarely put up against. And you can't fault them for that. Doing something stupid to nerf 6 pool all together would be bad for the game, you need crazy cheeses and stupid builds to keep it interesting.
I hope more people starting trying to 6 pool me in ladder. It feels so satisfying to wall off and watch the drones/lings mill around on the ramp. But granted, a well executed six pool like this might be a bit challenging to deal with, especially when caught completely off gaurd
TBH, where is the fun in 6-pooling..you can get GM ofc.. or whatever.. but you have 0 fun in doing that strat over and over again and again.. game is about fun..
On November 09 2011 20:58 ScythedBlade wrote: Which now means one thing: Protoss *must* have a uber effective all-in early game strategy...
Terrans have mass marines, MULEs -> rape Zergs have mass 6 pool zerglings ...
Protoss ... .... ... has nothing because Zealot timing got nerfed to 37 seconds =(.
Also, zealots are kind of terrible. Its viable to go off mass marines for a looong time, same with mass zerglings. Zealots are just.. uhg.
you guys have obviously never played against a well executed proxy 2gate with zealot micro or a well executed pylon block in ZvP... hell Kiwikaki even did a guide on that in the strategy forum: the short version: block him in, rush blink, win game...
I recently started off-racing as zerg and have been focusing on inject timing, general macro, and holding off rushes when all along the answer was to rush myself :D.
When I first made the switch I tried 6pooling a few times but noticed it nearly always got scouted and blocked, I think it's time to go through the replays and give it another go. Curious to see how you keep your pool unscouted, as from what I can tell this is what always led to my demise.
Okay, after watching all the replays (ALL the replays), I want to add my voice to the people who are disgusted with the BM. I don't think it's the type of thing that TL should endorse and I honestly think that every replay with BM in it should be taken down. It's poor sportsmanship, you can't do it at a tournament and it creates a bad image for esports and TL. If you want to share your guide, that's great and I encourage that even if it is a hated style - I think everyone has a right to play the way they want to. I don't think everyone has a right to post disrespectful things on a public forum.
To all the people who are discuss micro, I'm not sure that it's really that great. He says he's an exWC3pro, so everyone things he is some kind of micro master. If you have one build that you use against every race and get to practice the most difficult part once every 7 minutes or so, then you're bound to be good at one type of engagement. It looked to me like he knows some things about worker micro that most people don't know, so he wins games. Honestly, watching some of the ZvPs and ZvTs, I'm not sure what the pros could have done differently other than controlling the workers as well as OP does.
To those who think OP might be MaDFroG, I'm pretty sure he's sTa Habit and he wasn't a very well known WC3 player.
I generally don't react this way, but the BM and the lying really put me off. Best of luck in future endeavours!
lol compare the difficulty level of executing a 6 pool and winning with it against pros, and a terran 3rax1depo or toss 4 gate. the latter 2 are a joke and so much easier to pull off. esp the 3rax all in you just 1a 20 marines at 4.30
On November 10 2011 01:03 TheBamf wrote: Every time I want to explain the crappy side of this game I am just gonna link this thread.
Things need to be done, one should not be able to get into GM by "refining" the easiest executed build in the game.
It is not the easiest executed at all. July and idra 6 pool almost always fails is the perfect example to this.
The easy part is getting the pool done, the hard part is to win with it, and it isn't easy at all. You should go and try it for 20 games and you would be surprised how hard it is to win with it (assuming you are at higher league of cause)
Everything is "hard" when you take it as a stand alone tactic. But when compared to the EXTENSIVE set of options, skills and factors that go into a longer game it does not even compare.
LOL since when does a baneling bust or early roaches require skill? Im sorry but this thread is dumb and the only thing its going to do is get a nerf from blizzard which will effect people who are actually good at the game
This is just one of those noobie things that is way easier to execute than it is to hold off consistently, and almost no one gets practice against it.
PM Profile Report Quote # lol compare the difficulty level of executing a 6 pool and winning with it against pros, and a terran 3rax1depo or toss 4 gate. the latter 2 are a joke and so much easier to pull off. esp the 3rax all in you just 1a 20 marines at 4.30
Last edit: 2011-11-10 04:01:50 zerg cheese actually requires skill
On November 10 2011 04:13 Vorenius wrote: Someone needs to link Artosis this so he can finally get into GM league
LOL :D
On topic, Habit, you're a cool guy and you should continue doing what you are. I was laughing so much at most of the chat, especially the BeastyQQ replay )
Why isn't there a mod warning people who talk about the BM. I thought this was the strat section, not the blog section. Get off him for his BM, I'm pretty sure he's aware people won't take to it. The content of what he's said is what should be discussed, and while I think the builds are pretty bad, I have at least learned a thing or two.
I'm still curious Bad_habit, what a hatch firster should do to deal with a morphing spine, and if they should get a morphing spine themselves (or if only in certain situations, what situations).
And why the heck does he write "Satiini: (after long friendship in wc3 not my friend anymore thanks to 6pool )", as far as I know he was only some random manager in one of the teams I played in, very delusional guy. :D
thanks for sharing this bad_habit. really enjoyed some of those replays :D
imo if people do not like this strategy they should either: -be angry at blizzard for making a game where this strategy is so strong -be angry at themselves for assuming you would not try to 6pool/drone rush -not be angry at the sixpooler because you cannot expect opponents to play the game how you want it
a lot of people give excuses like: you will never be able to play and win a real macro game. while this may be true, why should they care about it? There is totally no need to be concerned for your opponent.
Thank you for turning the original post from an embarrassing bragfest ("Hey look I made it into GM 6 pooling and I bm when I lose!") into a largely useful post about how to 6 pool and how to defend it. Especially the micro tricks are pretty impressive. I wonder if the drone-stacking trick will also kill a 2 gate proxy.
seriously? you spend all your time 6 pooling? id rather be in a shitty low league and at least try to macro and lose more often than i win than play the same shitty build and hope to get lucky. to be honest you are just taking up a spot in gm league that should belong to someone else.
nothing really impressive. all you have showed is that you have spent countless hours perfecting a strat that probably only gets you wins because the PROS you play against dont expect it. nothing more. on top of that youve got a smug attitude towards players that actually deserve respect. stop it dude. you arent accomplishing much here. no one will ever respect you for how well you can 6 pool. making brag threads to show how you beat pros with a shitty build is a lame way to get attention.
Well despite all the bm or no bm going on I do find it an interesting post. It's good to see some games from someone who perfected 6 pooling as it can definately be hard to stop sometimes, especially if the 6 pooler knows all the good tricks. Worker micro can be quite difficult in this game and many people just lose.
You could try bragging a bit less though. Cool for you you made it to GM with this but many of the chats just show you starting off with bm as well.
Making a good guide on how to stop the most efficient 6 pools would be good by the way. Despite how many people may hate this strat 6 pool is essential for keeping players honest. It's a big part of the reason in ZvP I 9 scout at all.
This completely goes against everything I believe in SC2-wise, yet its a brilliant job you've done refining this strat. Keep up the good work and may the devil take you, long and hard!
You strategy is cool and I tried it and it worked almost every time! Thank you! The only bad thing is against terran. If there is a base with no entrance ( closed by rocks) they just move their base there and once they get bunker, it's gg. Also against FFE protoss, while killing the forge, make sure he is not closing the ramp. just send a pair of zerglings to deny him. Except these, your strategies are working good ^^
I'm not mad at you for exposing a flaw in SC2. The designers of this game really dropped the ball when it comes to abusiveness. I'm mad at Blizzard for making a game that allows 6/7 poolers to win a gainst people like white ra more than the cheesers themselves. That being said, I find it a sad experience and a waste of 60 dollars to be you.
On November 09 2011 16:15 kysBad_Habit wrote: very bm chat and very bm playstyle. we can all agree that it is bm to do this, especially on ladder. no matter how much people like to hide it, we all know it. op if you read this, i'm very disappointed and especially disgusted in your decision to flaunt this here for attention/pride. why are you teaching people to 6pool...[2] i was also surprised when you called people bm for being upset when you did this to them. is it worth inflicting emotional pain on people for wins like this? maybe focus more on having fun and less on taking advantage of people in desperate attempt for wins.
I love how you questions his pride and honor over a computer game. And since when is a certain play style/strategy BM? The whole point of the game is to win, he perfected a strategy to give him easy consistent wins. You need to separate the strategy from the chat. His chat was BM, not his strategy.
why the hell would u share this with the community , i dont want 6 pool all ins to be common place on ladder or in tournaments ., the day i see one of your builds at a pro event, will be a sad day.
but i give credit where its due, and ur guide was good :D
I for one love this! Cheese, is actually just abuse due to the fact that the opponent went so greedy in the beginning! We need cheese, for otherwise people will simply always open 15 hatch/cc-nexus first, and win by simple economy.advantage... So boring!
Cheese is just punishing a careless or too bold player.
I'm also a huge fan of early Zerg aggression, cheese play is really underestimated! Sometimes it goes to (some pretty epic) long games if the defense is good enough.
Actually got someone on ladder trying to mimic your guide. Ended up living with 3 probes, my Nexus, cannon/pylon, and a constructing Gateway. The drone rush factor definetly increases the build crazily, I had to mineral slide through the lings/drones to get a good surround and still lost a ton. Ended up winning the game though, since Chrono > Queen when you both have like 3 workers. lol. 4 gate ftw.
On November 09 2011 03:25 khaosis wrote: Jesus, was this written by a 4th grader? Grammar and punctuation can lead you so far in life, add those into your post. At least the content is somewhat entertaining, if not infuriating to some.
Yeah, you're right. Everyone in the whole world should know english fluently...
Re: the OP. It's amazing to see that a strat seen as a complete coin toss can be elevated to a high level. It's cheese, but at such a refined level it's scary. I think this has to be put in with the worker rushing blog in that it is a demonstration of what people can accomplish when working incredibly hard at something.
In your game versus Cloud, he killed all your drones, but gg'd instantly after losing all his units. He could have lifted off and forced a draw though, hahaha.
Been getting hit constantly with early pool builds on ladder since this thread popped up and I've been winning the majority of them. Thank goodness only good players win with these builds. ^^
On November 10 2011 09:37 Wiwiweb wrote: In your game versus Cloud, he killed all your drones, but gg'd instantly after losing all his units. He could have lifted off and forced a draw though, hahaha.
Did Cloud KNOW he had killed every single drone? He could just as easily have assumed that he had a drone or two back at home.
Great thread, love all the rage. Especially Umi's posts. If you can hold the 6pool as well as you claim, keep laddering and take the free wins. They're 3 minute games anyway, and not even a large minority of Zergs are following this guide and attempting to 6pool to GM. The vast majority of TL readers know that 6pooling may get you to GM, but it won't make you a better player.
The feat itself just proves what anyone worth listening to already knew. Ladder isn't a true measure of skill, it's only a convenient way to practice.
On November 10 2011 09:37 Wiwiweb wrote: In your game versus Cloud, he killed all your drones, but gg'd instantly after losing all his units. He could have lifted off and forced a draw though, hahaha.
Did Cloud KNOW he had killed every single drone? He could just as easily have assumed that he had a drone or two back at home.
He could have floated his buildings to check and know for sure if he needed to quit. Of course that's a 1 in 1000 games situation, so it's easy to say what can be done in hindsight.
Maybe he didn't care enough about a stupid 6pool game to wait another 10 minutes for a draw instead of searching for the next game and probably better practice.
On November 10 2011 10:02 UglyBastard wrote: Maybe he didn't care enough about a stupid 6pool game to wait another 10 minutes for a draw instead of searching for the next game and probably better practice.
Bad habit answer my question T_T (about how to deal with a morphing spine when going hatch first, and if/how/when you should make your own as the hatch firster vs 6 pool).
I'd also appreciate if you looked at this replay and tell me what i did right and wrong. I went hatch first, he went 6 pool, and I won. He didn't make a spine, but it seems like he did your variation of 6 pool. I also think he was kind of dumb, and I think I didn't handle it perfectly correctly, so it was closer than it should have been.
it was nothing near close. u did well unless the short fight with ur drones. just stay back as long as possible. when u hatch first and u cancel it you have a ton of minerals to spent once ur pool finishes so you can try to get a spine up but only that it will force ur oponnent to waste some time on it sooner or later. also the only time i would build a queen is if i still have a ton of minerals and my pool is about to go down. his strat was executed poorly, he made an overlord even tho he never went above 12 supply and he didnt place a spine. same as his pool went up 7 seconds later than mine does usually. if he places a spine still dont panic. spines dont deal that much of damage just try to get out as many units as possible before you comit. his army will die fast and the spine wont be the problem than. plz if you have more questions just PM me
There's no way anyone can call off his guide as stupid and cheesy, because it'll help all of us learn how to micro properly against early pools and drone rushes.
The problem with your build is that it only works in a bo1 scenario...
Anyone who studies your play would have you ousted in a millisecond. I agree that your build is effective on ladder, but entirely ineffective in a competitive format. Gratz on GM though....
On November 10 2011 15:51 xTNodub wrote: The problem with your build is that it only works in a bo1 scenario...
Anyone who studies your play would have you ousted in a millisecond. I agree that your build is effective on ladder, but entirely ineffective in a competitive format. Gratz on GM though....
you can say same about pretty much every cheese. If know that cheese is coming even before it is comming you often can defend it.
Hehe, nice guide. It's still kinda confusing that you try hard to execute perfectly a build, that's popular only due to the cute simplicity/efficiency ratio o_O. Pervert detected! :D
On November 10 2011 08:01 UmiNotsuki wrote: Queued up my first ladder game in a week or so today, hoping for a fun game.
ZvZ.
Fucking 6 pool.
Well, so much for me playing SC2.
How fucking odd is it that people will queue up for one game and then throw their hands in the air and stop playing because it is a 6 pool (poorly executed) that they lost to? Who are you people that get ready for a 1 game session on the ladder as if it were a momentous occasion? Just re-queue.
Excellently written guide. Thank you very much for the insight into this strategy, which is obviously extremely difficult to defend against when perfectly executed.
Your timings are crisp, and it shows that a defender's timings must be equally as crisp, as it comes down to mere seconds every game. Thank you for also showing insight into the strategy's weaknesses, that was helpful also.
I don't recommend posting any replays where you are BM in chat though. That goes against community standards and makes you look worse IMO than demonstrating how a single aggressive strategy (albeit considered cheesy) can effectively succeed on ladder. Please refrain from posting BM replays, and I suggest you reconsider the ones you have already posted.
What do you do if you're playing a ZvZ vs someone who is doing the exact same build as you? Also, what do you do vs someone that is going 6 or 7 pool but leaving his drones to mine?
On November 11 2011 00:11 THM wrote: I have a question.
What do you do if you're playing a ZvZ vs someone who is doing the exact same build as you? Also, what do you do vs someone that is going 6 or 7 pool but leaving his drones to mine?
this strat cannot win other cheeses, its a bo loss vs any kind of pool before 13. if you would back off with ur drones (they will be like in the middle of the map already) u have a big disadvantage so if the other player would just keep on producing lings u couldnt defend it, not even with wastin another 100 minerals (what is a ton in the early with low eco) into a spine. experienced this quite often actually. didnt win a game ^^
On November 11 2011 00:11 THM wrote: I have a question.
What do you do if you're playing a ZvZ vs someone who is doing the exact same build as you? Also, what do you do vs someone that is going 6 or 7 pool but leaving his drones to mine?
this strat cannot win other cheeses, its a bo loss vs any kind of pool before 13. if you would back off with ur drones (they will be like in the middle of the map already) u have a big disadvantage so if the other player would just keep on producing lings u couldnt defend it, not even with wastin another 100 minerals (what is a ton in the early with low eco) into a spine. experienced this quite often actually. didnt win a game ^^
Okay, so I lose vs 6/7 pool without drones. What if he brought his drones as well and we meet somewhere on the map ?
Just back off until he's almost in my main and then fight so that if it turns to a 1 drone vs 1 drone situation or sth like that my drone is closer to my hatch and will get back faster to mine?
On November 11 2011 00:11 THM wrote: I have a question.
What do you do if you're playing a ZvZ vs someone who is doing the exact same build as you? Also, what do you do vs someone that is going 6 or 7 pool but leaving his drones to mine?
this strat cannot win other cheeses, its a bo loss vs any kind of pool before 13. if you would back off with ur drones (they will be like in the middle of the map already) u have a big disadvantage so if the other player would just keep on producing lings u couldnt defend it, not even with wastin another 100 minerals (what is a ton in the early with low eco) into a spine. experienced this quite often actually. didnt win a game ^^
Okay, so I lose vs 6/7 pool without drones. What if he brought his drones as well and we meet somewhere on the map ?
Just back off until he's almost in my main and then fight so that if it turns to a 1 drone vs 1 drone situation or sth like that my drone is closer to my hatch and will get back faster to mine?
since im very confident that i can win him in a maicro battle i would not turn back. just camp his minerals and kill his main so theres no way he can mine and get an advantage^^
Good guide on 6pool. I personally think 6pool is a waste of time unless you a top tier player. If you play sc2 to mess around and you don't take it seriously, sure go ahead and master 6pool. I have no problem practicing my defense against it on the ladder, as I think every strat is viable if it works. But if your taking sc2 seriously, 6pool may get you free wins, and you may practice some things like micro, but in the end it's ganna make you a crap player. Cheese is looked down upon because there isn't much you can practice when all-ining or cheesing. And if you take the game seriously, then the only reason your doing it, is to get a win. And wins should be the last thing on your mind if you actually want to improve at this game.
I see 6pool and other cheeses as dumb as hell to do unless your playing in a tournament and it's bo3/5/7 and you throw 1 cheesey game in there to mess with your opponant. But on the ladder, where people are trying to practice, it's a waste of everyones time involved. BUT,that is my personal view on it. I have no problem with people wanting to 6pool every game or do what ever you can for wins, because it's making me better by having to deal with these random cheesey situations. But I just don't think it's something anyone should practice unless your bming your friend who just started playing =P
On November 10 2011 15:31 .Sic. wrote: There's no way anyone can call off his guide as stupid and cheesy, because it'll help all of us learn how to micro properly against early pools and drone rushes.
Good work man! i am impressed by your micro :D
Couldn't have said it better myself! I've been decimating 6 pools for a few months now using that 'hold position' trick except with 'stop' as it does the same thing. Still going to go through this bit-by-bit and see what get what I can from it though!
Thank you to the OP for the defensive drone stacking technique! I've seen the drone drill method but never imagined using it to fend off early pools. Feel much better opening as toss against zerg now instead of running to check the pool timing.
Could you pls elaborate on the 12 drone rush against terran though? I've faced some terrans who instantly pull about all their workers when my first 2 arrive when I try the 6 pool worker allin strat......
AND could you please provide a replay where you get your pool down at anything close to 37 seconds? It seems utterly impossible to me to get it down before 41-42 seconds depending on map. Even 39 seconds would sound really impressive....
Great thread. I do wonder how does the OP handle repeated games against a same guy? I mean, if they know you will rush... One tiny thing - the address of your replay vs Satiini is not hyperlinked.
On November 11 2011 05:45 greendestiny wrote: Great thread. I do wonder how does the OP handle repeated games against a same guy? I mean, if they know you will rush... One tiny thing - the address of your replay vs Satiini is not hyperlinked.
Then he will obviously lose......He probably waits 2 min or so between games. Wouldn't make any other sense...Especially not at GM level.
i have some backup cheeses same as i throw in some dronerushes. its hard at gm specialy when u ladder at night. met tod 7 times in a row one night. -_- sometimes i went for an economical 7pool since its in the rules. i could write the strat down 2 and upload a replay if theres any interest. i think its a pretty cool strat and might be used quite often in the future because i often double the economy when my (for example toss) oponnent has 22 worker i have 44 (with cutting units completely after the 6 lings because i get into a position where he neither can allin me nor can he take his expantion in time.)
On November 11 2011 05:54 Bad_Habit wrote: i have some backup cheeses same as i throw in some dronerushes. its hard at gm specialy when u ladder at night. met tod 7 times in a row one night. -_- sometimes i went for an economical 7pool since its in the rules. i could write the strat down 2 and upload a replay if theres any interest. i think its a pretty cool strat and might be used quite often in the future because i often double the economy when my (for example toss) oponnent has 22 worker i have 44 (with cutting units completely after the 6 lings because i get into a position where he neither can allin me nor can he take his expantion in time.)
Pls can you elaborate on scouting timings in 12 drone rush and how to get pool down earlier? I cant get it done faster then 41 seconds on some maps with or without stacked mining
I've gone up to rank 34 masters been cheesing the hell out of anyone on Ladder with some of your Cheese Strats.
Seems to have a high success rate vs Protoss even if they scout it they don't know how to deal with it. I beat the same Protoss 3 times in a row on Ladder with it.
Beat a Few Terrans with it too but its extremely Risky. Sometimes they get the Wall off..... b4 u get there.
Edit: Oh yeah and u have to micro like a boss i have pretty good micro been winning more games then losing...!!! lol
On November 09 2011 03:03 UmiNotsuki wrote: Okay, elephant in the room. Completely ignoring the content of the OP, I really have trouble with threads that contain 10+ lines of text with no line breaks and use horrible spelling (e.g., you = u, the = teh, before = b4, etc.) If you wanna be taken seriously, clean it up, please!
That aside, where's the romance gone!? There's something beautiful to grand strategy, there's an art to perfectly thought out and perfectly executed plays. Epic battles of wit and skill! It's why we play StarCraft II in the first place, after all, it's why I watch streams and tournaments all day, it's why there's a culture based solely on this one video game and its predecessor. There's nothing grand about 6 pooling into grandmaster; the only thing this thread makes me think is how terribly annoying cheese is, how frustrating it can be to want to play a real game, free from easy-to-execute, boring all-ins, and to be matched with a 6 pooler instead.
Let me clartify; I almost never lose to 6 pools. I'd estimate I've got about a 90% winrate against them. That doesn't mean 6 pool is bad, I'm just pretty good at dealing with it. But the point is, even when I win against a 6 pool, I'm not enjoying the game. I'm simply going through motions, executing some quick drone micro, and then the game ends. I didn't have to think at all, I didn't have to push myself to my limit to see my will overcome my opponent's; I had to stack drones on a far mineral patch, pull them back, and attack move for an instant surround and an all-too-easy win.
I miss the days of shunning cheesers... when did it become socially acceptable to make the game boring for other people?
._.
What a sad post. I suggest you go read the meaning of strategy. Will you deny that efficiency and victory are unrelated to strategy? Strategy is NOT prolonging the length of battle or building up for big engagements. Strategy is the means to victory and our friend here has done exactly that - mastered the art of war in his own funny little way - unlike most 6 poolers, he knows how to micro properly.
It's time people start seeing cheese as just part of the game. If it can be built or used, then it's valid, period.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST - The best players he played, such as white-ra and huk, took the losses without a care in the world. It's only semi-pro's like beastyqt that flame hardcore. That tells you something very important about the mindset of true pro's.
added a replay against whitera played today. seeing how 7pool can be defended quite well (even tho it did some damage) and how to transition. sad i threw the game away T_T http://drop.sc/56357 (its in the mainpost aswell) gn8 teamliquid.net
I've lost to quite a bit of these de-lovely strats, my favorite is the one on xel naga where u chrono out your zealot and wall off after scouting the 6-9 pool and then becuz of pathing issues ur zealot warps in behind ur wall even tho ur rallied to the front, hilariously theres absolutely nothing at all you can do about it, so yay i lose points to some douche but i know i will almost never encounter it in a tournament so i say my piece with the ****er and move on
Jesus, how in the fuck am I supposed to deny Terran wall? I try everything and my timings are right, but he just sends 2 SCVs to kill my drone and walls in, and once the wall is done I'm just fucked.
Only gold so far with this but it works 90% against Protoss/Zerg, but like 10% against Terran.
On November 11 2011 17:26 SchfiftyFive wrote: I've lost to quite a bit of these de-lovely strats, my favorite is the one on xel naga where u chrono out your zealot and wall off after scouting the 6-9 pool and then becuz of pathing issues ur zealot warps in behind ur wall even tho ur rallied to the front, hilariously theres absolutely nothing at all you can do about it, so yay i lose points to some douche but i know i will almost never encounter it in a tournament so i say my piece with the ****er and move on
i mean...thats great but are you expecting people to think its cool that you rage vs. 6 pool? and btw you can run into a 6 pool in tournament play. just ask Moon about that, or Idra, or many others..
On November 11 2011 17:26 SchfiftyFive wrote: I've lost to quite a bit of these de-lovely strats, my favorite is the one on xel naga where u chrono out your zealot and wall off after scouting the 6-9 pool and then becuz of pathing issues ur zealot warps in behind ur wall even tho ur rallied to the front, hilariously theres absolutely nothing at all you can do about it, so yay i lose points to some douche but i know i will almost never encounter it in a tournament so i say my piece with the ****er and move on
Then you're doing it wrong... You build a second gateway (rather early, so it has enough HP) and a pylon (rather late). You cancel the pylon when your zealot pops out and now you have a 2x gateway 1x zealot wall.
against 9+ pool, you can also build a forge and build a canon and the canon should finish in time to save the gateway from going down...
just watch what the pros do, if what you do doesn't work, it's really not that hard. You lose against it once, you go to a forum... you have just become cheeseproof! (if you don't open greedy); if you're still losing, you have to work on your mechanics!
On November 11 2011 17:26 SchfiftyFive wrote: I've lost to quite a bit of these de-lovely strats, my favorite is the one on xel naga where u chrono out your zealot and wall off after scouting the 6-9 pool and then becuz of pathing issues ur zealot warps in behind ur wall even tho ur rallied to the front, hilariously theres absolutely nothing at all you can do about it, so yay i lose points to some douche but i know i will almost never encounter it in a tournament so i say my piece with the ****er and move on
Then you're doing it wrong... You build a second gateway (rather early, so it has enough HP) and a pylon (rather late). You cancel the pylon when your zealot pops out and now you have a 2x gateway 1x zealot wall.
against 9+ pool, you can also build a forge and build a canon and the canon should finish in time to save the gateway from going down...
just watch what the pros do, if what you do doesn't work, it's really not that hard. You lose against it once, you go to a forum... you have just become cheeseproof! (if you don't open greedy); if you're still losing, you have to work on your mechanics!
Watch the game vs WhiteRa where he does this and beats Bad_Habit
It always takes the game further ahead when someone tries to perfect a single strategy. If this should lead to everyone doing it at ladder and succeeding with it (like korean 4gating with the 40second wg research in beta), then blizzard will patch it. Noone wants 6 pool do become a viable standard strategy, so its nice there is some more discussion about the strengts and weaknesses now.
your bm sadly turns all this around and i cant like you anymore
Do you ever feel like you've wasted your time by using a repetitive, boring strat that a trained monkey could do only so you can get high on ladder which nobody cares about and now you cant play ladder anymore because your MMR is much better than it should be? Just curious.
Edit: I dont mean to insult I just dunno if emulating you is a good idea for the new players in this thread.
I just watched some of the replays and I hope this thread gets closed and the OP won't get any attention anymore.
1. He lies about his Wc3 background. He never was a former proplayer but a manager for some smaller teams. He tries to take credit for something that is not true.
2. He is highly unfriendly in his games, often talks bullshit, offends the opponent etc.
3. His playstyle is purely based on rolling the dice. Every build he does can easily be countered and there are a lot of "build order losses" with his builds. From what I have seen ( 6-7 games ), his micro is not very good. SO WHY THE HELL GIVE THIS GUY CREDIT?
There is no way for me to NOT call this guy pathetic. Somebody who 6/7 pools for several months is not worth a thread or attention. Especially if he is such a unworthy person.
There is no way for me to NOT call this guy pathetic. Somebody who 6/7 pools for several months is not worth a thread or attention. Especially if he is such a unworthy person.
so........................................................................... thanks for the attention O_O
On November 11 2011 23:22 chrissummers wrote: I just watched some of the replays and I hope this thread gets closed and the OP won't get any attention anymore.
1. He lies about his Wc3 background. He never was a former proplayer but a manager for some smaller teams. He tries to take credit for something that is not true.
2. He is highly unfriendly in his games, often talks bullshit, offends the opponent etc.
3. His playstyle is purely based on rolling the dice. Every build he does can easily be countered and there are a lot of "build order losses" with his builds. From what I have seen ( 6-7 games ), his micro is not very good. SO WHY THE HELL GIVE THIS GUY CREDIT?
There is no way for me to NOT call this guy pathetic. Somebody who 6/7 pools for several months is not worth a thread or attention. Especially if he is such a unworthy person.
Wow... what is your problem, seriously?
He made a thread about 6-7 pooling, saying that perfectly executed it could put you in GM. And he is right.
He is really good at it, and teach peoples how to do it. For god sake, because of it, you can even be better at defending 6 pooling by reading this post.
He is not a pro-player, so what is your problem, really? He likes 6 pooling and teach peoples how to execute/defend them well. Should you six pool every games just because someone got into GM because of it? No. Is it a nice thing to know how to execute well/defend well to throw at your opponent to surprise him? Yes.
Why giving him credits? Not because he is the best players out there or even a pro players, but because he took the time to make quite a good tutorial about it, to help people understanding it as much as he does, instead of just keeping all this for himself.
And why on earth should we care about is WC3 background? We are on SC2 community websites, not WC3.
So...we should hate him and close is thread (a good nicely done one) because you hate six pool and because he raged in a couple of games?
I'm sure that you are raging a lot too in game, since you are even raging at a guy on TL forum for... quite not much. So you should understand that, don't you?
Pure dronerushing looks odd to me. You lose time traveling and mining time. A protoss can just skip any gate or forge and mass probes untill he has critical advantage while dodging battles especially in narrow places like between nexus and minerals. Drones are only like 5 hp better than probes, not big deal really. This is the equivalent of having 6,32% more workers in battle.
Wait, does this micro hold position trick work for normal units?
Edit: it doesnt. Basicly the unit priority is the same for combat units which are attacking. The order which they are carrying out (attack move, hold position or just standing and shooting at whatever comes close) is irrelevant. I made a test with probes and... they dont attack other probes at all when issued a hold position command even if the other probes attack them. It looks like hold position on probes works just like stop command + they dont move. I dont understand how offensive hold position can possibly work.
Edit2: I also ran some tests on probes vs drones. 15 probes beat 14 drones in open space (no micro, just a-move) with 3-6 probes staying alive. 14 probes vs 14 drones the result is vice versa: 3-5 drones stay alive. You can see how 1 additional probe makes huge difference.
P.S. can we please have no more of those useless posts saying how much people dislike cheese and cheesers?
Ya well I had this happen to me on ladder and it was very annoying how strong it was. Also you cannot 3 rax into GM I gaurantee you that. Maybe at one point, but the scoutign and defense has since developed.
The difference is taht this build really doesnt have any good defense. I mean what could White Ra have done differently except memorize your name and prepare for it next time?
On November 12 2011 01:35 zmansman17 wrote: Ya well I had this happen to me on ladder and it was very annoying how strong it was. Also you cannot 3 rax into GM I gaurantee you that. Maybe at one point, but the scoutign and defense has since developed.
The difference is taht this build really doesnt have any good defense. I mean what could White Ra have done differently except memorize your name and prepare for it next time?
counterscout the overlord, scout the right base first, win.
WhiteRa is such a nice guy though. I'm surprised he didn't get mad even a little. Just goes to show you that some of these guys are the nicest in the gaming community. Gj getting to GM with these strats
Who fucking cares if he's bm or not. What does that have to do with the material has provided?
If you run into him on ladder, bm him back, or get pissed, or post a blog about it. Great. But this is the sc2 strat section, personality and bm and manner have no place here. You can PM your rage about it, but I'm really irritated that there are 21 pages worth, from 22 pages, of people just qq'ing and saying they don't like the guy, so therefore he should be censored. It's like kicking off the football coach of the winner of the world cup because he's sometimes rude. And god forbid you meet someone in real life or have to work with someone you don't like. You going to beg someone to kick them out too?
I dont understand how offensive hold position can possibly work.
It's confusing in his post because he says 'towers' (a warcraft 3 term for static defense, I posted in this thread asking him about it and he answers) and his english isn't perfect, but 'aggressive hold position' means when the opponent does defensive hold position around a 'tower', you hold position too.... so here, let me explain:
Opponent does 'defensive hold position' around a warping cannon. What this means is makes a cannon, and then right clicks all his probes to surround it, and then hits hold position. What this means is that your drones will aggro to the morphing cannon, because workers are never targeted if a hostile unit is present, and a static defense building is considered hostile, even if it isn't imminently hostile. What this means is when you a-move with your drones, they will just bounce around because the probes are on hold position blocking the way, and your drones won't attack the probes because they aren't currently hostile.
So in order to 'counter' this, you attack the cannon so your drones go for a surround. Then, you hit hold position so your drones stop bouncing around and are in a good aggressive surround. Then you micro each worker onto the enemy probes with a right click onto each probe (or attack command issued specifically from eaach drone to each probe). With attack into hold position, your drones will get into a good surround, and then you micro each drone and attack and they die off quickly. The opponent will probably a-move in response, so you can just a-move back. The best thing for them to do is probably run away via mineral walk, which gives you opportunity to attack the 'tower'.
In some of your replays before your drone even scouts the opposite base of the overlord and before the overlord scouts anything you automatically send everything to his base.... You're obviously maphacking behind this
You send an overlord to one position, a drone to another. If it's not at one of those bases, then it's obvious which one it's at. He also said he bases where he goes if he runs into a scout or not. Like against protoss he just send his drone somewhere and if he doesnt meet anyone halfway he goes somewhere else he said, because they send a scout at 9 usually. You can also send the overlord on the correct route and if no scout comes from that direction you can tell if they are there or not.
And I'm sure he misses it in some games, to the 1% of zerg who maybe dont go scout a base first (in zvz on larger maps I send my overlords to the middle, for example). But if you can say which game is questionable we can look at it.
On November 12 2011 06:13 Kiri wrote: In some of your replays before your drone even scouts the opposite base of the overlord and before the overlord scouts anything you automatically send everything to his base.... You're obviously maphacking behind this
Well, at some point if you haven't scouted the opponent yet, you have to blindly decide where to send your stuff. The times he sent it wrong are losses and therefore obviously not in the replaypack...
On November 12 2011 06:13 Kiri wrote: In some of your replays before your drone even scouts the opposite base of the overlord and before the overlord scouts anything you automatically send everything to his base.... You're obviously maphacking behind this
Well, at some point if you haven't scouted the opponent yet, you have to blindly decide where to send your stuff. The times he sent it wrong are losses and therefore obviously not in the replaypack...
so guessing where the opponent is and running there, having either a direct loss or a good chance to win is regarded a "strategy" and therefore has its place in this forum?
So the soccer team that just attacks with all players, even the keeper is a team with a "strategy" worth talking about?
usually i send scouts that i know in time where my oponnent is. sometimes, while chatting or something, i dont focus to much on the game, then i have to "guess" happend like 5 times in total mb. ^^
On November 12 2011 06:13 Kiri wrote: In some of your replays before your drone even scouts the opposite base of the overlord and before the overlord scouts anything you automatically send everything to his base.... You're obviously maphacking behind this
Well, at some point if you haven't scouted the opponent yet, you have to blindly decide where to send your stuff. The times he sent it wrong are losses and therefore obviously not in the replaypack...
so guessing where the opponent is and running there, having either a direct loss or a good chance to win is regarded a "strategy" and therefore has its place in this forum?
So the soccer team that just attacks with all players, even the keeper is a team with a "strategy" worth talking about?
oliver kahn, former munich keeper, once made a goal with his hands! didnt count tho. i guess it came up in some football strategy forum since in some cases it might be helpful. just stop trying to find out silly things about me. i noticed by now u dont really like me.
you're not calling TLO cheesy are you? there's a difference between cheesy and innovative, no matter how small. TLO COULD play a "standard" game and do very well, that's the point, a cheeser can't really rely on that.
Calling TLO cheesy is like calling SlayerS_BoxeR cheesy. Nah...
you're not calling TLO cheesy are you? there's a difference between cheesy and innovative, no matter how small. TLO COULD play a "standard" game and do very well, that's the point, a cheeser can't really rely on that.
Calling TLO cheesy is like calling SlayerS_BoxeR cheesy. Nah...
never said hes a bad player, but you are wrong there sir
On November 12 2011 08:35 Arghnews wrote: Calling TLO cheesy is like calling SlayerS_BoxeR cheesy. Nah...
Boxer is obviously the cheesiesed Proterran I've ever seen in SC2. It's not like he cheeses to throw his opponents of when they expect a normal game. He just cheeses because of his inability to play straight up macro games against equally rated opponents. Idra for example.
@Bad_Habit. I wonder how much of a difference there is in between getting master and grandmaster with this set of strats. Judging from the pro replays you provided even the best ladder heros seem to handle these strats pretty awfully. Could it be possible that there isn't even a huge difference between getting to gm when you've made it to master with it?
On November 10 2011 15:18 Belial88 wrote: Bad habit answer my question T_T (about how to deal with a morphing spine when going hatch first, and if/how/when you should make your own as the hatch firster vs 6 pool).
I'd also appreciate if you looked at this replay and tell me what i did right and wrong. I went hatch first, he went 6 pool, and I won. He didn't make a spine, but it seems like he did your variation of 6 pool. I also think he was kind of dumb, and I think I didn't handle it perfectly correctly, so it was closer than it should have been.
Man, no offense, but you sort of a douche in that game. Calling an offensive GG, and then saying "owned" when the guy was obviously complimenting your hold, was pretty bm
This is the moment when becoming a grandmaster means nothing anymore... just kidding!.. but seriously this ain't gonna get you far. Reaching GM and staying there are completely different things. Players will start to know you and be aware of your cheesy play and that's where your "run" ends. :/
Theres nothing cool about these builds or this thread. Its not hard to do and it really only literally accomplishes some micro practice. Cool if u get code s with this but ur not gonna have practice with anything else if thats all u do.
See how GM means nothing any... NO fuck that. This proves that if you preserver, perfect execution of a plan strat no matter how simple can get you far. Goes back to pick a build, nothing fancy, learn to do it perfect. That's how you succeed in starcraft. Pros do the same thing they have just perfected more builds.
On November 10 2011 15:18 Belial88 wrote: Bad habit answer my question T_T (about how to deal with a morphing spine when going hatch first, and if/how/when you should make your own as the hatch firster vs 6 pool).
I'd also appreciate if you looked at this replay and tell me what i did right and wrong. I went hatch first, he went 6 pool, and I won. He didn't make a spine, but it seems like he did your variation of 6 pool. I also think he was kind of dumb, and I think I didn't handle it perfectly correctly, so it was closer than it should have been.
Man, no offense, but you sort of a douche in that game. Calling an offensive GG, and then saying "owned" when the guy was obviously complimenting your hold, was pretty bm
Ya that seemed inappropriate yet are criticizing others for being inappropriate. In my opinion, I think people have good reason to be upset. The difference between this build and a well executed build is that this build really leaves a FFE build defenseless, if microed perfectly.
Even as OP said, 15 scvs lose to 12 drones because drones can hold position regen health and fight again, similar to micro wars. Of course it must be executed well, but why should a 12 drone strategy be able to beat the likes of White Ra and any player for that matter of any caliber at least once. I mean all you can do is memorize this guys name and prepare the next time
So your the reason people have been drone rushing me lately. The best defense against it is once you see him pull drones just chrono workers as toss cancel everything but your pylon of course and then just kill all his drones with your probes. If he tries to run go probe rush him :D I killed a guys hatch like that.
Ya that seemed inappropriate yet are criticizing others for being inappropriate. In my opinion, I think people have good reason to be upset. The difference between this build and a well executed build is that this build really leaves a FFE build defenseless, if microed perfectly.
I'm criticizing others for derailing this thread that should be objectively discussed as a strategy, in the strat forum, not because they have any inclination to dislike this guy. There's 22 pages of this thread being filled with people saying they dont like him, yea after one guy posted a useless post saying only that is enough, the rest keep to questions or discuss the strat or counter-strat please.
I also really don't care how BM people are when I'm browsing TL. I want to learn how to get better at this game when I'm in the strat forum, and discuss strategy. Unless the thread is "How to metagame your opponent based on in-game chat", I think it's as irrelevant as what you had for breakfast what happened in regards to manners.
I beat a rank 8,6 Masters Terran with 6 pool on Ladder make sure to send ur first worker at 1:20 or maybe a lil earlier or u could get Fucked Also send all ur workers at 150 mineral to make the 6 lings like said in the Blog....
Put all Smallest Maps in your Ladder Map Pool like i did... Your preferences i guess though if u want Tal'Darim...
So right now i'm In Top 2000 of Masters League in NA... Repeat again not 86 masters Terran. I actually 6 Pooled and Beat rank 8 and Rank 6 Masters Terrans.. LOL WITH 6 POOL!
They Raged so hard it was hilarious i offensive GG'ed one time so i could see why one of them got pissed... Its hell a fun...
How come most of your wins against pros are on XelNaga? Ofc rush distance is short/it's pretty obvious where your opponent is but still every time I try to cheese on this map in such a blatantly obvious I get scouted early and hardcountered......Are pros that greedy that they just tend to scout later?
On November 12 2011 00:51 Cheerio wrote: Edit: it doesnt. Basicly the unit priority is the same for combat units which are attacking. The order which they are carrying out (attack move, hold position or just standing and shooting at whatever comes close) is irrelevant. I made a test with probes and... they dont attack other probes at all when issued a hold position command even if the other probes attack them. It looks like hold position on probes works just like stop command + they dont move. I dont understand how offensive hold position can possibly work.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read this to mean that you are issuing a Hold Position command then waiting for your drone to attack again on its own?
I haven't tested this myself, not having any particular interest in mastering 6pool. But the trick as written is:
Hold Position A-move (or attack closest probe/scv/drone)
The idea is to lose aggro, then immediately start attacking again, achieving the same goal as pulling a drone and re-issuing the attack command, but saving the travel time.
If you can get to GM by doing a 6pool, then by all means do it - if you're skilled enough to make it, you deserve it. Still, I feel like this blind type of aggression is the wrong way to approach improving at SC2. While it does improve some of the basic micro mechanics and macro mechanics, it doesn't practice these fundamentals as much as, say, a 2base timing or 3base timing would. Early cheese should be a tool in every competitive sc2 players arsenal, but it shouldn't be the only thing they practice!
Edit2: I also ran some tests on probes vs drones. 15 probes beat 14 drones in open space (no micro, just a-move) with 3-6 probes staying alive. 14 probes vs 14 drones the result is vice versa: 3-5 drones stay alive. You can see how 1 additional probe makes huge difference.
No offense, but you sure did read the OP correctly ? Basically Belial said everything about the "tower"'s thing. Now about drones against probes, what bad_habit means is, i don't know why, but having some drones on hold position basically stop the others probes attacking at this particular drone. So even if you simply A-moved ur 15 probes against my 14 drones i'd easily win that fight. Not sure if you understand by i can always make a replay for you...
On November 12 2011 19:53 Simonius wrote: How come most of your wins against pros are on XelNaga? Ofc rush distance is short/it's pretty obvious where your opponent is but still every time I try to cheese on this map in such a blatantly obvious I get scouted early and hardcountered......Are pros that greedy that they just tend to scout later?
i think xelnaga is a bad map for this cheese and it would be my next veto. the rush distance isnt to small and i think its one of the maps i have negative stats on. but its like the only map i prefer dronerush over early pools
On November 13 2011 06:29 Artimo wrote: guess the strat doesnt have much staying power, his last 2 1v1s on EU were against whitera, both were lost to whitera.. gg white-ra
one was thrown away ^_^ and both were my eco 7pool, ur free to check the mainpost for the vod
p.s. can someone evaluate how I did? what I need to work on, etc. because I know I didn't pull it off perfectly. But that's what practice is for of course
This is a great thread, these kind of strategies need more light shed on them imo when players regarded as top players still lose to it. Also I didn't know about the hold position micro.
On November 09 2011 01:38 ppterodactyl wrote: Further proving that Grandmaster means nothing.
User was warned for this post
LOL GrandMasters is a broken league, as was made extremely easy to get into if you just played games on the day of the patch. If you didn't play games on the day of the patch, then you had a hard to getting GM, but if you did, you easily got into GM with just a few decent wins. Broken league.... GM doesn't mean jack shit. So many noobs in NA GM this seasons.
On November 09 2011 01:38 ppterodactyl wrote: Further proving that Grandmaster means nothing.
User was warned for this post
LOL GrandMasters is a broken league, as was made extremely easy to get into if you just played games on the day of the patch. If you didn't play games on the day of the patch, then you had a hard to getting GM, but if you did, you easily got into GM with just a few decent wins. Broken league.... GM doesn't mean jack shit. So many noobs in NA GM this seasons.
They fixed the bug this season, and I don't think there are 'so many noobs' this season
On November 09 2011 01:38 ppterodactyl wrote: Further proving that Grandmaster means nothing.
User was warned for this post
LOL GrandMasters is a broken league, as was made extremely easy to get into if you just played games on the day of the patch. If you didn't play games on the day of the patch, then you had a hard to getting GM, but if you did, you easily got into GM with just a few decent wins. Broken league.... GM doesn't mean jack shit. So many noobs in NA GM this seasons.
They fixed the bug this season, and I don't think there are 'so many noobs' this season
There are more noobs this season than any season prior, and this is the worst GM season ever, so yeah. It's worse.
Bad_Habit, thank you very much for this thread. I've never 6 pooled before.I am high master zerg in EU. I've decided to try your strats and i have seen that there is a huge difference between someone like me and you. I ended dropping almost to diamond :D. You sir have the best micro i have ever seen. So this thread helped me realize the game on a deeper level. Thank you. For the haters of this thread how is that any different from protoss and terrean allins? It is just as allin.
On November 13 2011 14:15 Fairchild wrote: I've seen this thread so many times and until 24 hours ago I never read it through.
Since last night I've been promoted to masters using only 6 pool vs T/P and your ZvZ 7pool.
I've gotta say, thank you!!
I'm done cheesing, I just wanted to get over the gap. Been top 8 diamond for 2 seasons and had enough.
Thank you
so close to doing this myself. i beat mid/high masters on a everday basis but damn blizz wont promote me. srsly, takes 30 wins in a row. i've lost 4 out of my last 18/19.
On November 14 2011 19:30 satsang wrote: Bad_Habit, thank you very much for this thread. I've never 6 pooled before.I am high master zerg in EU. I've decided to try your strats and i have seen that there is a huge difference between someone like me and you. I ended dropping almost to diamond :D. You sir have the best micro i have ever seen. So this thread helped me realize the game on a deeper level. Thank you. For the haters of this thread how is that any different from protoss and terrean allins? It is just as allin.
I wasn't sure how I originally felt about this. On one hand its pretty hard to believe such a simple strategy can be executed so well it can carry you to GM. But honestly this is no different then any all in.
I commend you, I would hate to hit this on ladder. But you seem to have mastered the 6 pool pretty well.
I thought I'd learnt it all during the last year and a half of devoting myself to the way of the 6 pool, but it seems I still have much to learn. Thank you sir, your courage and wisdom has furthered me along my journey.
Anyone congratulating or saying this guys is good is being blinded by the flashy gold GM badge. Real achievement isn't measured in leagues. It's not measured in wins or badges or portraits or any of that crap and if you think it is you're playing the wrong game. This game is about skill.
I don't think any of OP's accomplishments are worth anything. People often accuse video games of getting people hooked by offering a "false sense of accomplishment." I think Starcraft is different. To channel Day[9], Starcraft is a game that requires more than "lackadaisical button pushing", it requires the fine-motor skills of a musician and the imaginative though processes of a chess player. To put it simply, STARCRAFT IS HARD.
Day[9] says that the reason he felt so proud when he won the WCG Pan American Championship is because he got so good at something so hard. That's real achievement. This build will never give you the same feeling. It is easily defended if you know it's coming. Why would you want to accomplish this? What value does it have? It's not esports. It's not skillful. It's stupid. People will not improve if they do this strategy. If you want to be a Starcraft player, this is not the build for you. As Bad_Habit's manner shows, this is a build for pieces of trash.
On November 15 2011 06:40 Ripps wrote: Anyone congratulating or saying this guys is good is being blinded by the flashy gold GM badge. Real achievement isn't measured in leagues. It's not measured in wins or badges or portraits or any of that crap and if you think it is you're playing the wrong game. This game is about skill.
I don't think any of OP's accomplishments are worth anything. People often accuse video games of getting people hooked by offering a "false sense of accomplishment." I think Starcraft is different. To channel Day[9], Starcraft is a game that requires more than "lackadaisical button pushing", it requires the fine-motor skills of a musician and the imaginative though processes of a chess player. To put it simply, STARCRAFT IS HARD.
Day[9] says that the reason he felt so proud when he won the WCG Pan American Championship is because he got so good at something so hard. That's real achievement. This build will never give you the same feeling. It is easily defended if you know it's coming. Why would you want to accomplish this? What value does it have? It's not esports. It's not skillful. It's stupid. People will not improve if they do this strategy. If you want to be a Starcraft player, this is not the build for you. As Bad_Habit's manner shows, this is a build for pieces of trash.
lol this is probably one of the guys who BMs everyone on ladder because they're all noobs except for him. Look mate, did you even read the OP, or did you start typing your monologue the moment you saw "6 pool"?
On November 15 2011 06:40 Ripps wrote: Anyone congratulating or saying this guys is good is being blinded by the flashy gold GM badge. Real achievement isn't measured in leagues. It's not measured in wins or badges or portraits or any of that crap and if you think it is you're playing the wrong game. This game is about skill.
I don't think any of OP's accomplishments are worth anything. People often accuse video games of getting people hooked by offering a "false sense of accomplishment." I think Starcraft is different. To channel Day[9], Starcraft is a game that requires more than "lackadaisical button pushing", it requires the fine-motor skills of a musician and the imaginative though processes of a chess player. To put it simply, STARCRAFT IS HARD.
Day[9] says that the reason he felt so proud when he won the WCG Pan American Championship is because he got so good at something so hard. That's real achievement. This build will never give you the same feeling. It is easily defended if you know it's coming. Why would you want to accomplish this? What value does it have? It's not esports. It's not skillful. It's stupid. People will not improve if they do this strategy. If you want to be a Starcraft player, this is not the build for you. As Bad_Habit's manner shows, this is a build for pieces of trash.
lol this is probably one of the guys who BMs everyone on ladder because they're all noobs except for him. Look mate, did you even read the OP, or did you start typing your monologue the moment you saw "6 pool"?
I've read it more than once. I'm very manner.
Instead of trying to psycoanalyze me over the internet, just answer these questions: Does this build help make you a better player? What happens when people expect this build (like, say, in a tournament format)?
By answering these two questions, you should be able to figure out whether this strat is "good" or whether this guy is a "good" player.
well some worship day9 for winning some wcg qualifier in some dead game and for missreading 90% of the game he cast and dislike what i did, others think day9 is overrated.
what people have to understand is that there is not one opinion for everyone. everyone can have an opinion. so stop insulting everyone who is not going with ur opinion plz.
On November 15 2011 06:40 Ripps wrote: Anyone congratulating or saying this guys is good is being blinded by the flashy gold GM badge. Real achievement isn't measured in leagues. It's not measured in wins or badges or portraits or any of that crap and if you think it is you're playing the wrong game. This game is about skill.
I don't think any of OP's accomplishments are worth anything. People often accuse video games of getting people hooked by offering a "false sense of accomplishment." I think Starcraft is different. To channel Day[9], Starcraft is a game that requires more than "lackadaisical button pushing", it requires the fine-motor skills of a musician and the imaginative though processes of a chess player. To put it simply, STARCRAFT IS HARD.
Day[9] says that the reason he felt so proud when he won the WCG Pan American Championship is because he got so good at something so hard. That's real achievement. This build will never give you the same feeling. It is easily defended if you know it's coming. Why would you want to accomplish this? What value does it have? It's not esports. It's not skillful. It's stupid. People will not improve if they do this strategy. If you want to be a Starcraft player, this is not the build for you. As Bad_Habit's manner shows, this is a build for pieces of trash.
lol this is probably one of the guys who BMs everyone on ladder because they're all noobs except for him. Look mate, did you even read the OP, or did you start typing your monologue the moment you saw "6 pool"?
I've read it more than once. I'm very manner.
Instead of trying to psycoanalyze me over the internet, just answer these questions: Does this build help make you a better player? What happens when people expect this build (like, say, in a tournament format)?
By answering these two questions, you should be able to figure out whether this strat is "good" or whether this guy is a "good" player.
To answer your questions...
Does this build help make you a better player?
Yes, this will 100% make you a better player. Unit micro allows you to turn resources into wins. If you don't have these fundamental micro abilities you will lose to someone who can macro as proficiently as you can, every time.
What happens when people expect this build (like, say, in a tournament format)?
If your opponents expect this build, you have already won. One possible build order has forced them into avoiding greedy play -- if they go for it, they could lose everything. If they have to play standard and safe, then you can afford to be greedy or play standard yourself and not go into a macro game at a disadvantage because you couldn't punish risky play.
In addition to both of these things, knowing how to play like this prevents you from straight up losing ZvZs (that you honestly shouldn't) and gives you stronger worker micro skills that can be used to harass, deny expansions, and secure an advantage. The difference between mastering a 6 pool and mastering "macor play" is that with the 6 pool you are focusing on two specific skillsets: early game decision making and unit control. Unit control is pretty damn important in SC2. Early game decision making can cause you to win or lose major tournaments (think of all the games IdrA loses to bunker rushes).
So, yes, 6 pool (7pool zvz) is a good strategy. Bad_Habit is also an exceptional player (as showcased in the VOD against White-Ra).
On November 15 2011 06:40 Ripps wrote: Anyone congratulating or saying this guys is good is being blinded by the flashy gold GM badge. Real achievement isn't measured in leagues. It's not measured in wins or badges or portraits or any of that crap and if you think it is you're playing the wrong game. This game is about skill.
I don't think any of OP's accomplishments are worth anything. People often accuse video games of getting people hooked by offering a "false sense of accomplishment." I think Starcraft is different. To channel Day[9], Starcraft is a game that requires more than "lackadaisical button pushing", it requires the fine-motor skills of a musician and the imaginative though processes of a chess player. To put it simply, STARCRAFT IS HARD.
Day[9] says that the reason he felt so proud when he won the WCG Pan American Championship is because he got so good at something so hard. That's real achievement. This build will never give you the same feeling. It is easily defended if you know it's coming. Why would you want to accomplish this? What value does it have? It's not esports. It's not skillful. It's stupid. People will not improve if they do this strategy. If you want to be a Starcraft player, this is not the build for you. As Bad_Habit's manner shows, this is a build for pieces of trash.
lol this is probably one of the guys who BMs everyone on ladder because they're all noobs except for him. Look mate, did you even read the OP, or did you start typing your monologue the moment you saw "6 pool"?
I've read it more than once. I'm very manner.
Instead of trying to psycoanalyze me over the internet, just answer these questions: Does this build help make you a better player? What happens when people expect this build (like, say, in a tournament format)?
By answering these two questions, you should be able to figure out whether this strat is "good" or whether this guy is a "good" player.
it makes you a better player by making you better at micro. the most famous player of all time, boxer, is known to be carried by his micro and smart brain (how many times has he cheesed idra now?) he has reached the top of the world of esports without relying on macro or whatever, he plays to win.
if people expect it you can just not do it, then they have to worry about what if you fake the fake and just do it anyway. people lose to bunker rushes and reactor helions, hell even 4 gates all day every day, even pros and even when they know its coming.
On November 15 2011 06:40 Ripps wrote: Anyone congratulating or saying this guys is good is being blinded by the flashy gold GM badge. Real achievement isn't measured in leagues. It's not measured in wins or badges or portraits or any of that crap and if you think it is you're playing the wrong game. This game is about skill.
I don't think any of OP's accomplishments are worth anything. People often accuse video games of getting people hooked by offering a "false sense of accomplishment." I think Starcraft is different. To channel Day[9], Starcraft is a game that requires more than "lackadaisical button pushing", it requires the fine-motor skills of a musician and the imaginative though processes of a chess player. To put it simply, STARCRAFT IS HARD.
Day[9] says that the reason he felt so proud when he won the WCG Pan American Championship is because he got so good at something so hard. That's real achievement. This build will never give you the same feeling. It is easily defended if you know it's coming. Why would you want to accomplish this? What value does it have? It's not esports. It's not skillful. It's stupid. People will not improve if they do this strategy. If you want to be a Starcraft player, this is not the build for you. As Bad_Habit's manner shows, this is a build for pieces of trash.
lol this is probably one of the guys who BMs everyone on ladder because they're all noobs except for him. Look mate, did you even read the OP, or did you start typing your monologue the moment you saw "6 pool"?
I've read it more than once. I'm very manner.
Instead of trying to psycoanalyze me over the internet, just answer these questions: Does this build help make you a better player? What happens when people expect this build (like, say, in a tournament format)?
By answering these two questions, you should be able to figure out whether this strat is "good" or whether this guy is a "good" player.
To answer your questions...
Does this build help make you a better player?
Yes, this will 100% make you a better player. Unit micro allows you to turn resources into wins. If you don't have these fundamental micro abilities you will lose to someone who can macro as proficiently as you can, every time.
What happens when people expect this build (like, say, in a tournament format)?
If your opponents expect this build, you have already won. One possible build order has forced them into avoiding greedy play -- if they go for it, they could lose everything. If they have to play standard and safe, then you can afford to be greedy or play standard yourself and not go into a macro game at a disadvantage because you couldn't punish risky play.
In addition to both of these things, knowing how to play like this prevents you from straight up losing ZvZs (that you honestly shouldn't) and gives you stronger worker micro skills that can be used to harass, deny expansions, and secure an advantage. The difference between mastering a 6 pool and mastering "macor play" is that with the 6 pool you are focusing on two specific skillsets: early game decision making and unit control. Unit control is pretty damn important in SC2. Early game decision making can cause you to win or lose major tournaments (think of all the games IdrA loses to bunker rushes).
So, yes, 6 pool (7pool zvz) is a good strategy. Bad_Habit is also an exceptional player (as showcased in the VOD against White-Ra).
Are you being honest?
Don't all builds help improve unit micro? TWhy is this one better than those? If you can't play well outside a 6 pool, any legitimate player will win in a tournament match on macro and all those other things that this build doesn't develop. (i.e. Everything after the 4 minute mark)
He's exceptional for the sole reason that he has devoted massive amounts of time to something that doesn't really make him a good player.
He's exceptional for the sole reason that he has devoted massive amounts of time to something that doesn't really make him a good player.
Are you serious? You're throwing out the "good player" moniker for someone that plays this game and wins frequently enough to be in the top 0.01% of North America in this game? What do you define a "good player" as, if not as someone who wins games frequently and consistently?
By your definition as I understand it, my silver-league friend who never does timing pushes and sits in his base macroing up to 200/200 before moving out is "really" the best player in the world.
He's exceptional for the sole reason that he has devoted massive amounts of time to something that doesn't really make him a good player.
Are you serious? You're throwing out the "good player" moniker for someone that plays this game and wins frequently enough to be in the top 0.01% of North America in this game? What do you define a "good player" as, if not as someone who wins games frequently and consistently?
By your definition as I understand it, my silver-league friend who never does timing pushes and sits in his base macroing up to 200/200 before moving out is "really" the best player in the world.
There's a real difference between someone that sits on his ass to macro a ton and someone that has a reaction based on the opponent's strategy and changes his gameplan and timings accordingly.
I don't see anything wrong in it. Sure it won't help you improve, but I'll let you in on a secret. Everyone in mid to high diamond is trying to get into masters. To put it bluntly, in the last few games I have faced the following strategies: - 6 pool drone all in - 13/13 baneling all in - 2 fact mass hellion run by - Cannon rush - 1/1/1 expand - 3 gate voidray - Cannon rush - Destiny ZvZ All in - Mediocre midgame tank push
Litterally EVERYONE is cheesing. You will face maybe 30% of the players who are actively trying to get better in their mechanics. There is so much shitty play that you have to get through before you finally get to face good players where the game gets exciting and fun before you get to masters, you might aswell cheese your way through it and get it over with.
White ra is to much personality to get effected, and such a warm hart even gratulating the guy haha.
So that makes it wrong to cheese White ra, it's like hitting a puppy thing you just don't do man
OT;
It's kind of amazing it all seems simple but the control you need and bit of luck aswell makes this not possible for all, but thanks for the guide, i do enjoy throwing a cheese in there from time to time.
He's exceptional for the sole reason that he has devoted massive amounts of time to something that doesn't really make him a good player.
Are you serious? You're throwing out the "good player" moniker for someone that plays this game and wins frequently enough to be in the top 0.01% of North America in this game? What do you define a "good player" as, if not as someone who wins games frequently and consistently?
By your definition as I understand it, my silver-league friend who never does timing pushes and sits in his base macroing up to 200/200 before moving out is "really" the best player in the world.
The definition I was using is the one most people use: Good = Skilled. Good ≠ Winning Games. If winning games meant you were good then hackers would be good. You're confusing causation with correlation. Although being good means you usually do well on the ladder, this is not neccessarily the case.
Lots of things make someone a good player. Macro, micro, theory, timings, gamesense etc etc etc I'm sure your silver league friend still has to work on all those things.
Winning does not make you "good". Your silver league friend isn't bad or good because he's in Silver League, just like this guy isn't bad or good because he's in Grandmaster. A few examples: Boxer wasn't good because he won OSLs. Gretzky wasn't good because he was in the NHL. They were good because they were skilled. They could perform well consistenty against opponents who were good as well.
The 6-Pool is the equivalent of the Wrong Ball Trick Play. It might be very effective against an unsuspecting opponent, but only once. Any scrub can do it and beat people better than them, but beating them doesn't make them good. This build just takes advantage of the way the ladder works (BO1).
as both a zerg and a protoss player I admit any kind of early zerg rush , but mainly the 7pool econ build is too strong vs protoss. fun easy win as zerg, a pain in the ass as toss ^^
On November 15 2011 19:36 Sina92 wrote: as both a zerg and a protoss player I admit any kind of early zerg rush , but mainly the 7pool econ build is too strong vs protoss. fun easy win as zerg, a pain in the ass as toss ^^
I still don't see why any good player would lose to early pools.. maybe on Taldarim, but that is the only map you can lose to it and on this map Zerg will have to send 2 Drone scouts, so he either kills you with 6-8 Lings or it almost doesn't matter how much eco you lose due to the rush.
What I mean is, if you want to be safe, just build the forge at the top of your ramp and wall off if you see an early pool. No risk, more fun. I don't understand why Terran would lose to it, given they can repair buildings and one marine is enough to stop the rush completely.
ZvZ is more trickey, still you should have about 25% win rate in higher masters..
Just wanted to say that I don't understand this at all......
did u read the mainpost in the first place? if he paces the forge on top of the ramp he will NEVER be able to take an expand and its a bo loss to everyone playing standart. i really dont see the point in what ur writing but i really want to : (
After long read of this topic I still can't believe majority of people support the op. First of all I never heard of wc3 pro player Habit, and I knew a lot of players. Secondly I can't imagine any positive thing about wasting so much time on this stupid strategy (yes it's stupid). Many players 4 gated to GM but there was like few patches which prevented that. Also 3 rax isn't very strong as it was before few barrack and depot requirement nerfs.So if in next patch spawning pool reqires 10 more seconds to build will be that road to bronze op? I'm just curious. This is nothing but a surprise factor. If 6 pool/7 pool is that viable how come you never won any onlne or offline tournament? Also your manners and offensive GG's toward progamers is showing that you are overconfident without a single reason. I guess few of them would rather slap you instead of trying to counter. You are really rude and that's never good thing. Also you are posting QQ's of 2 players who are miles ahead of you in every aspect of this game. Instead of envying them you are making fun of them like you are the better player. I'm not going into the stupidity of this strategy because as high master player i'm not competent enough to claim that I would hold this off from 1st try (I assume I wouldnt) but I'm just telling you that you should expect flaming because you are doing things that are ruining beauty of this game. When are you already cheesing you should ignore chat and try to be educational as much as this can be (if can be). Wish you all the best.
On November 16 2011 00:29 Nawe wrote: After long read of this topic I still can't believe majority of people support the op. First of all I never heard of wc3 pro player Habit, and I knew a lot of players. Secondly I can't imagine any positive thing about wasting so much time on this stupid strategy (yes it's stupid). Many players 4 gated to GM but there was like few patches which prevented that. Also 3 rax isn't very strong as it was before few barrack and depot requirement nerfs.So if in next patch spawning pool reqires 10 more seconds to build will be that road to bronze op? I'm just curious. This is nothing but a surprise factor. If 6 pool/7 pool is that viable how come you never won any onlne or offline tournament? Also your manners and offensive GG's toward progamers is showing that you are overconfident without a single reason. I guess few of them would rather slap you instead of trying to counter. You are really rude and that's never good thing. Also you are posting QQ's of 2 players who are miles ahead of you in every aspect of this game. Instead of envying them you are making fun of them like you are the better player. I'm not going into the stupidity of this strategy because as high master player i'm not competent enough to claim that I would hold this off from 1st try (I assume I wouldnt) but I'm just telling you that you should expect flaming because you are doing things that are ruining beauty of this game. When are you already cheesing you should ignore chat and try to be educational as much as this can be (if can be). Wish you all the best.
How can a Strat be stupid when its sucessfull? If it will be nerfed hes goona play a other strat but still then he ownes with this! And he was not THAT good in WC3 so you dont have to know him
Like 4gate is stupid and sucessful, like mass hellions is stupid and sucessful and so on. When this game is finally cleaned off cheese and when the skill is only what it matters then threads like this will not exist. Since this is supposed to be multitasking rewarding game, not microing 12 drones to highest league.
Real players want to be promoted into leagues over-time, so that when they are in that league, they can handle the skill level of that league at the same time, thus continuing to improve their mechanics, gameplay etc. These "get to GM as fast as possible" strategies doesn't make anybody better at the game and the amount of really skilled players in Starcraft 2 continues to be something like 2-3%, therefore killing the game.
what i hate, you call someone QQ and start the flamewar with 00:17 [All] FameToFlame: werent u that stupid kid i raped with toss? ... doesnt seem HE starts the flame
also vs beasty ... sorry to tell you but YOU are the way worse flamer every time i see falmewars go on... started by you often and also react childish ... and you really not understand the reactions ?
On November 16 2011 02:16 Nawe wrote: Like 4gate is stupid and sucessful, like mass hellions is stupid and sucessful and so on. When this game is finally cleaned off cheese and when the skill is only what it matters then threads like this will not exist. Since this is supposed to be multitasking rewarding game, not microing 12 drones to highest league.
Who says it's supposed to be what you think it is supposed to be?
Is BW free of cheese? What makes you think SC2 ever will be?
On November 16 2011 02:16 Nawe wrote: Like 4gate is stupid and sucessful, like mass hellions is stupid and sucessful and so on. When this game is finally cleaned off cheese and when the skill is only what it matters then threads like this will not exist. Since this is supposed to be multitasking rewarding game, not microing 12 drones to highest league.
Who says it's supposed to be what you think it is supposed to be?
Is BW free of cheese? What makes you think SC2 ever will be?
Does it make the game unstable, most likely. Cheese is valid from a design standpoint, since it keeps the game interesting and exciting during entire game. But there is a fine line between "good" and "too effective". I am not sure if 6 pool in the second group, but is damn effective for little effort someone needs to put in to get good at it.
Now, the question if Bad_Habit is equal in skill to the other players in GM? The answer is that he is not. Because if you took away this one abusive build, he would not be able compete with them.
On November 16 2011 02:16 Nawe wrote: Like 4gate is stupid and sucessful, like mass hellions is stupid and sucessful and so on. When this game is finally cleaned off cheese and when the skill is only what it matters then threads like this will not exist. Since this is supposed to be multitasking rewarding game, not microing 12 drones to highest league.
Who says it's supposed to be what you think it is supposed to be?
Is BW free of cheese? What makes you think SC2 ever will be?
Well do you know some person who is competitive player and who want to execute cheese every single game? Do you know any progamer who actually won a tournament with cheese? It's not what I think, it's purpouse of game. Sc2 is created with many tools to beat your opponent and everyone who trully love this game want to see various things. Not 6pool,4gate,3rax and other brain hurting stuff. This is only one of exploits nobody will respect you for. Therefore it's sad you guys respect 6pooling to GM.
Now, the question if Bad_Habit is equal in skill to the other players in GM? The answer is that he is not. Because if you took away this one abusive build, he would not be able compete with them.
Now, the question if Bad_Habit is equal in skill to the other players in GM? The answer is that he is not. Because if you took away this one abusive build, he would not be able compete with them.
based on facts?
Were you previously grandmaster? Can you provide replays of you beating GM players without using the 6 pool build you featured in this thread? If you have them and can beat any player using other builds, I will admit you are a talented player with some real depth. But without those, I don't think anyone will believe you are doing anything but using a build that many would consider abusive.
On November 16 2011 04:37 Bad_Habit wrote: can you provide replays of me losing to copper player, without using 6pool build? unguilty until proven guilty
The phrase is: Innocent until proven guilty. The problem is that you are not guilty of anything. You assert that you are GM level player by using this build. And I responded that many people consider this build to be abusive and that it is likely the sole reason for your success on the ladder.
We do not need to provide replays of your losses, because we cannot force you to use a build. That is also a strawman argument, by placing the burden on me to prove you are not able to win in the GM league without go 6 pool. You know full well that no one has any ability to provide those replays. Even if someone had some aged replay of you losing, you could simply say "that was a while ago and I am better now".
Demanding someone produce something that you knew they cannot find or provide does not strenghten your argument.
Bad_Habit, you may be part of the reason some ladder heroes QQ, but man... You are epic. An epic troll, maybe. An epic strategist, definitely. An epic human being, indubitably.
I feel like the individual builds that you listed in the OP aren't necessarily abusive (it is a legitimate argument to say so, however, IMO), but that the theme of all the builds is just the ultimate form of aggression. And depending on how your opponent reacts in game and in meta will result in the abusiveness/trolling/griefing of this play. The fact that you've made it so far with this build doesn't make me rage, it makes me laugh, but only because I realize that in caring too much about things that are out of my control, I become the helpless victim of your phenomenal griefing. Thank you for the laughs good sir, now it will be my goal to make GM not ONLY using hyper-hyper-ultra-aggressive zerg strategies, but to never ever lose to one.
I tip my hat to you sir!
P.S. the BeastyQT rage made my ribs hurt after an already comedic gold laden OP. So much lulz
Now, the question if Bad_Habit is equal in skill to the other players in GM? The answer is that he is not. Because if you took away this one abusive build, he would not be able compete with them.
based on facts?
Were you previously grandmaster? Can you provide replays of you beating GM players without using the 6 pool build you featured in this thread? If you have them and can beat any player using other builds, I will admit you are a talented player with some real depth. But without those, I don't think anyone will believe you are doing anything but using a build that many would consider abusive.
This pretty much sums up the thread. If he can play the game outside this build we'll all be wrong, but he's said himself that this is all he does. As for "innocent until proven guilty"... the burden of proof is on him to show why he is good. These replays don't show much. Besides, this isn't a courtroom. This is TL.
These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
If you assume that being GM is a measure of how good you are at starcraft as a whole, then yes. However, if you take it as a measure of your ability to earn ladder points, it is not as good of a measure of skill. Remember, for every 45 minute marco game that is played, Bad_Habit can get in 5-10 games where he 6 pools. A single win nets you the same amount of ladder points, regardless of how long you play.
I was reading this thread right after I had just finished bathing the kids and was just about to start my getting ready for work routine (all thoroughly disheartening) so I decided to try out a few quick six-seven pools and see how I would do. Stuck my girls in front of the space heater to dry off, fired up sc2, chose Zerg and started looking for a match. Immediately got this game on Antiga Shipyard vs Protoss. Funny thing is I meant to six pool but I slipped into habit and immediately made my first drone.
You can see several mistakes that I made in this game:
-Forgot to set drone rally point -Forgot to send 2 zerglings that I made to join the fight -Wasted time attacking things that didn't matter
Luckily my opponent also had several mistakes. It leads to what was a very entertaining game for me. I ROFLd when the game was over, immediately wrote this post, now I am headed to work :-). Thanks for the inspiration OP!!
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
If you assume that being GM is a measure of how good you are at starcraft as a whole, then yes. However, if you take it as a measure of your ability to earn ladder points, it is not as good of a measure of skill. Remember, for every 45 minute marco game that is played, Bad_Habit can get in 5-10 games where he 6 pools. A single win nets you the same amount of ladder points, regardless of how long you play.
Because there is no real significance in how long it takes to win the game. If I play a game and it takes 7 hours to finish does that mean I must have more skill than the puny humans that finish the game in a mere 45 minutes?
A longer game indicates that both players are of roughly equal skill (or possibly both suffer from an aversion to early aggression.), not that they are highly skilled.
You earn ladder points for winning games and you lose ladder points for losing games. If player A consistently wins a higher percentage of games than player B then player A is better.
Hey guys :D Habit let me cast some of his games a while back on youtube so if you guys are too lazy to download the replays you can head on right over here www.youtube.com/aqwaunchie some notable games include 6 pooling tlo! This guy OWNS the six pool lol.
I don't see it as cheese or all-in or whatever cheap shit you can name them. If this is what he does to win the game, this is his strategy (and hell of a good one I would say). Now they're going to say that this "strategy" doesn't help him to improve. True, but who the hell are you and why do you even give a damn? You ain't his father his coach or his freaking team manager. Now, I'll admit this "guide" kinda stinks with a huge amount of ego in it, but nevertheless I think Habit here deserves a small clap for at least sharing it with everyone. You can say he's sharing it just to show off, but you can't deny that you learnt something from here at the very least. Can you 6pool white-ra? At least that was entertaining if you didn't find it educational. Drone micro? Now that will come in handy. You might know how to do it, but do the newer players know? Isn't all this information crucial for them to learn? As long as they have brains and don't do it till GM that is, but again, it's up to them, not you.
If you take a tour around Blizzard forums, one of the most famous lines you'll see there is:
If you think Terran is so fucking OP, go fucking play it and stop whining.
You find it abusive? Either you do it, or you suck it up.
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
this is wrong. since 3 month our site has a ladder the ladder counts battle.net wins and the first 1-3 players every month gets a price. what happened: last month there was a samsung galaxy pad in for th ewinner, so everyone tried to accumulate as much _fast_ wins as possible, meaning 6pool and 3rax. you would be shocked how many players got from gold to master in about 2 weeks by playing only a cheese strat over and over. does that actually mean they have master skills? no. they wil fall to gold as soon as they play normal again. playing a cheese strat may be a game for some time, bzut then the "play" part is lost and it gets "work" to only execute a strat, its no fun after some weeks.
i think thats the cause we see this post here. the 6pooler has cheesed himself in GM, that was no fun, but hard work, so he wants something like e-fame as compensation. and after this he eventually will stop 6pooling, because he is tired of it and its no fun anymore. he will drop to his average ranking again when stopping 6pooling, so he is in a bit of a bind and tries to make out of it what he can. sad story.
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
this is wrong. since 3 month we have a lader on taketv.net, http://taketv.net/ladder the ladder counts battle.net wins and the first 1-3 players every month gets a price. what happened: last month there was a samsung galaxy pad in for th ewinner, so everyone tried to accumulate as much _fast_ wins as possible, meaning 6pool and 3rax. you would be shocked how many players got from gold to master in about 2 weeks by playing only a cheese strat over and over. does that actually mean they have master skills? no. they wil fall to gold as soon as they play normal again. playing a cheese strat may be a game for some time, bzut then the "play" part is lost and it gets "work" to only execute a strat, its no fun after some weeks.
i think thats the cause we see this post here. the 6pooler has cheesed himself in GM, that was no fun, but hard work, so he wants something like e-fame as compensation. and after this he eventually will stop 6pooling, because he is tired of it and its no fun anymore. he will drop to his average ranking again when stopping 6pooling, so he is in a bit of a bind and tries to make out of it what he can. sad story.
First of all, league level only shows how good you are at the ladder, not how good you are vs players who are in that league level.
Skill is only an arbitrary subjective opinion.
Some people like to cheese, and some might never stop (PiQLiQ)
Someone who has "master skills" in the ladder to me is someone who can compete with masters equally on the ladder, whether he cheeses or not.
Also why do you speculate and judge the OP, he has already stated that he wanted to prove to his friends that such cheese to GM is possible.
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
this is wrong. since 3 month we have a lader on taketv.net, http://taketv.net/ladder the ladder counts battle.net wins and the first 1-3 players every month gets a price. what happened: last month there was a samsung galaxy pad in for th ewinner, so everyone tried to accumulate as much _fast_ wins as possible, meaning 6pool and 3rax. you would be shocked how many players got from gold to master in about 2 weeks by playing only a cheese strat over and over. does that actually mean they have master skills? no. they wil fall to gold as soon as they play normal again. playing a cheese strat may be a game for some time, bzut then the "play" part is lost and it gets "work" to only execute a strat, its no fun after some weeks.
i think thats the cause we see this post here. the 6pooler has cheesed himself in GM, that was no fun, but hard work, so he wants something like e-fame as compensation. and after this he eventually will stop 6pooling, because he is tired of it and its no fun anymore. he will drop to his average ranking again when stopping 6pooling, so he is in a bit of a bind and tries to make out of it what he can. sad story.
plz dont use my thread as a commercial thingy. thank you
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
this is wrong. since 3 month we have a lader on taketv.net, http://taketv.net/ladder the ladder counts battle.net wins and the first 1-3 players every month gets a price. what happened: last month there was a samsung galaxy pad in for th ewinner, so everyone tried to accumulate as much _fast_ wins as possible, meaning 6pool and 3rax. you would be shocked how many players got from gold to master in about 2 weeks by playing only a cheese strat over and over. does that actually mean they have master skills? no. they wil fall to gold as soon as they play normal again. playing a cheese strat may be a game for some time, bzut then the "play" part is lost and it gets "work" to only execute a strat, its no fun after some weeks.
i think thats the cause we see this post here. the 6pooler has cheesed himself in GM, that was no fun, but hard work, so he wants something like e-fame as compensation. and after this he eventually will stop 6pooling, because he is tired of it and its no fun anymore. he will drop to his average ranking again when stopping 6pooling, so he is in a bit of a bind and tries to make out of it what he can. sad story.
First of all, league level only shows how good you are at the ladder, not how good you are vs players who are in that league level.
Skill is only an arbitrary subjective opinion.
Some people like to cheese, and some might never stop (PiQLiQ)
Someone who has "master skills" in the ladder to me is someone who can compete with masters equally on the ladder, whether he cheeses or not.
Also why do you speculate and judge the OP, he has already stated that he wanted to prove to his friends that such cheese to GM is possible.
what i understand so far:
he gets flamed ingame, his old thread "was full of hate", so he made another thread. o0
and you try to tell me not to analyze the situation on a rational level? these things are far too interesting to not do that ^^
do you really think i posted that as a "commercial"? LMAO we really wouldnt need that. i was just backing up my words with some facts, therefore i posted the link. or are you just pissed because i dont like your style?
On November 16 2011 15:59 cari-kira wrote: do you really think i posted that as a "commercial"? LMAO we really wouldnt need that. i was just backing up my words with some facts, therefore i posted the link. or are you just pissed because i dont like your style?
oh, so you are from taketv and it actually was a commercial? OO
why would i be pissed? i got enough hater :o
just found the way like you posted it "last time there was a samsung whatever for the winner", well only my opinion, as we learned at least form this thread there are alot of opinions :o
also if you are from taketv i wouldnt breg to much like "we wouldnt need this" and use things like CAPS LMFAOLOLCOPTERROLF, that might make you + ur "company" look a little stupid. only my opinion again
no, its no commercial, we run a german site and 99% of the players are german, so this post on page 27 of a tl thread cant be a commercial, dont you agree? anyways i just wanted to share my insights of the battle.net ladder and basically say "everyone who plays about gold level can get at least high master by cheesing over and over", and as i said the link was there for backing up these words, to just show my experience with "cheesing himself up in the ladder" -.- i dont think you are a bad person, i just think you are in a bind getting so high ranked by 6pooling. you cant stop now because your rank would eventually fall, isnt this right? and this i think is a bit sad, because at this point there is no fun for you anymore in playing the game (i think i repeated myself here) i'd love you to prove me wrong though by winning some macro games in gm;-)
[edit] ok i get your point, you can misread it as "commercial". i was posting this sentence with the "galaxy pad for the winner", because that made the people go really mad and they cheesed the whole month, the winner had about 1000 wins in 4 weeks (thats 2000 games) and we saw some people (the winner, too) going from gold to master by their cheeses (6pool for him, too). i took out the link, so this ridiculous (thats why caps) "commercial" discussion stops now, because i dont think thats what this thread is about..
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
this is wrong. since 3 month we have a lader on taketv.net, http://taketv.net/ladder the ladder counts battle.net wins and the first 1-3 players every month gets a price. what happened: last month there was a samsung galaxy pad in for th ewinner, so everyone tried to accumulate as much _fast_ wins as possible, meaning 6pool and 3rax. you would be shocked how many players got from gold to master in about 2 weeks by playing only a cheese strat over and over. does that actually mean they have master skills? no. they wil fall to gold as soon as they play normal again. playing a cheese strat may be a game for some time, bzut then the "play" part is lost and it gets "work" to only execute a strat, its no fun after some weeks.
i think thats the cause we see this post here. the 6pooler has cheesed himself in GM, that was no fun, but hard work, so he wants something like e-fame as compensation. and after this he eventually will stop 6pooling, because he is tired of it and its no fun anymore. he will drop to his average ranking again when stopping 6pooling, so he is in a bit of a bind and tries to make out of it what he can. sad story.
First of all, league level only shows how good you are at the ladder, not how good you are vs players who are in that league level.
Skill is only an arbitrary subjective opinion.
Some people like to cheese, and some might never stop (PiQLiQ)
Someone who has "master skills" in the ladder to me is someone who can compete with masters equally on the ladder, whether he cheeses or not.
Also why do you speculate and judge the OP, he has already stated that he wanted to prove to his friends that such cheese to GM is possible.
what i understand so far:
he gets flamed ingame, his old thread "was full of hate", so he made another thread. o0
and you try to tell me not to analyze the situation on a rational level? these things are far too interesting to not do that ^^
I still don't understand how the extent to which he is getting flamed/BM directly connects with how much fun he chooses to have doing this cheese, and therefore how much longer it will be, if at all, that he resorts back to doing more "normal, macro" games.
And I did no such thing in telling you not to analyze the situation on a rational level... speculating is making statements/opinions with no good basis. Judging the OP in a way other than accepting what he already said would also be speculating.
So, getting flamed and having a lot of haters does not necessarily hint that one will neither get bored of cheesing, nor that he is trying to show off his accomplishments so he can feel good about himself.
On November 16 2011 16:30 cari-kira wrote: no, its no commercial, we run a german site and 99% of the players are german, so this post on page 27 of a tl thread cant be a commercial, dont you agree? anyways i just wanted to share my insights of the battle.net ladder and basically say "everyone who plays about gold level can get at least high master by cheesing over and over", and as i said the link was there for backing up these words, to just show my experience with "cheesing himself up in the ladder" -.- i dont think you are a bad person, i just think you are in a bind getting so high ranked by 6pooling. you cant stop now because your rank would eventually fall, isnt this right? and this i think is a bit sad, because at this point there is no fun for you anymore in playing the game (i think i repeated myself here) i'd love you to prove me wrong though by winning some macro games in gm;-)
[edit] ok i get your point, you can misread it as "commercial". i was posting this sentence with the "galaxy pad for the winner", because that made the people go really mad and they cheesed the whole month, the winner had about 1000 wins in 4 weeks (thats 2000 games) and we saw some people (the winner, too) going from gold to master by their cheeses (6pool for him, too). i took out the link, so this ridiculous (thats why caps) "commercial" discussion stops now, because i dont think thats what this thread is about..
im not into this but i doubt that a goldie is able to improve to masterleague by only 6pooling. isnt it more likely that someone used an underrated account (gold) so he gets alot of easy wins in the beginning. sure he wouldnt admit it because it is kinda cheap (mb not in the rules). so basicly when i would start of with a bronze account i would have like 250 "freewins" until im in masterleague where i would win like 60%. better dont look back on the stats of your league because i think some of the goldplayer in there are smarter than you.
why dont we do a bet. lets see if a goldie can improve to masterleague in 4 weeks by the given rules i had.
any goldplayer who wants to do it plz massage me. (would be nice if you would be able to stream that ppl actually can follow you)
edit: i like that idea alot. going to open a post when i find some time in the evening for me today will be interesting
On November 16 2011 11:48 MrAverage wrote: These threads are always great for bringing out the nerd rage.
"He wins using a strategy that violates my personal set of ethics! What a noob!"
SC2 provides a ladder system to help us decide who are the good players and who are the bad ones. Bad_Habit is in GM. If you are not, then he is better than you. (i.e. he wins more games against better opponents than you do.)
If a particular strategy really is abusive then you are a dumb ass for not using it yourself.
this is wrong. since 3 month our site has a ladder the ladder counts battle.net wins and the first 1-3 players every month gets a price. what happened: last month there was a samsung galaxy pad in for th ewinner, so everyone tried to accumulate as much _fast_ wins as possible, meaning 6pool and 3rax. you would be shocked how many players got from gold to master in about 2 weeks by playing only a cheese strat over and over. does that actually mean they have master skills? no. they wil fall to gold as soon as they play normal again. playing a cheese strat may be a game for some time, bzut then the "play" part is lost and it gets "work" to only execute a strat, its no fun after some weeks.
i think thats the cause we see this post here. the 6pooler has cheesed himself in GM, that was no fun, but hard work, so he wants something like e-fame as compensation. and after this he eventually will stop 6pooling, because he is tired of it and its no fun anymore. he will drop to his average ranking again when stopping 6pooling, so he is in a bit of a bind and tries to make out of it what he can. sad story.
the differnce beetwen master and bronze or gold or whatever, is that master player's actually use builds, that are somewhat optimized and make sense, thats the only skill you need to be in master. 3rax or 6pool are simple builds. Ez to master optimize, thats why they reach master with them. If gold player is able to reach master with 3rax allin, i think hes on the right track to stay in master(as to stay in master you only need optimized buildorder and a timing attack), as he somewhat starts to understand the basic's of sc2, that are spend all your money, have optimized build, kill your opponent.
On November 16 2011 15:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: this shit is a lot harder than it looks LOL (especially in higher levels, though if you master it, then great :D)
Yeah I practiced it a ton before season 4 and when season 4 started I only did this but I only got into diamond I could never break into masters! Though with all the games I played I got like rank 7 diamond in the world lol. Shit gets so hard at a higher level.
On November 16 2011 15:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: this shit is a lot harder than it looks LOL (especially in higher levels, though if you master it, then great :D)
Yeah I practiced it a ton before season 4 and when season 4 started I only did this but I only got into diamond I could never break into masters! Though with all the games I played I got like rank 7 diamond in the world lol. Shit gets so hard at a higher level.
reminds me of the good old buggy times when noone could get promoted (in the middle of a season) and i played on a friends account in diamond. faced atn.cloud (1st in GM) and i was favorite ^^ ended up beeing #1 in diamond in the world with ~ 1500 points. 2nd place was maka.prime (new acc it seems) with ~1200 points the 2nd place in my division had 700 points ^_^
Kinda a douche move to 6 pool all day long, but I guess if you get kicks out of it.
It's a hell of a lot harder to hold a 6 pool + drones as terran than I thought it would be, ofc if you get a wall up then it's gg, but if you don't it requires insanely good micro, instant reaction time, and a lot of hope that you didn't go gas first. If you don't wall-off it's much easier to hold though, as you can protect the marine with scvs. The barracks nerf time really fucked things up though, and I think they should revert it back simply because 11-11 rax wasn't really imba, and pretty much carries the same weight when proxied as it did before the patch (you should die going hatch first in most situations if you try to sneak drones after the hatch before your pool, but if you scout it then you have a very good chance to hold).
I can see a lot of people winning with this strategy that have zero skill at all, you don't even need to know how to micro, you can just a-move and that's that. I guess I'll just have to drop my second depot faster or scout faster or something.
Who declares that macro is the right game to play? If u can play 6pool all day long and everybody knows you for that and u can still win in GM than u r good. wheres the difference to a player that is doing everygame a banshe opening and still can win in gm allthough everybody knows his builds and timings? or a player who is every game going mech and never play something different and is still able to take second place at battle in berlin? its just a different playstyle of the game and nothing more or less. if u know whats coming and still u cant win than u simply are worse than ur opponent.
allthough i really hate players who do this and be bm afterwards like u are.
On November 18 2011 18:25 Thune wrote: Who declares that macro is the right game to play? If u can play 6pool all day long and everybody knows you for that and u can still win in GM than u r good. wheres the difference to a player that is doing everygame a banshe opening and still can win in gm allthough everybody knows his builds and timings? or a player who is every game going mech and never play something different and is still able to take second place at battle in berlin? its just a different playstyle of the game and nothing more or less. if u know whats coming and still u cant win than u simply are worse than ur opponent.
allthough i really hate players who do this and be bm afterwards like u are.
The difference that you're missing is that 6 pool + drones every game is not a playstyle, it's cheese, and it has an extremely low skill cap compared to say, a gas first 3 hellion 1 banshee expand into mech build in TvT.
Playing the game hoping that your opponent doesn't have the experience/skills to stop this cheese is not really playing the game at all. Your opponent isn't playing you, they're playing themselves, there's not much difference between a silver level 6 pool and a mid masters level 6 pool, they'll have pretty shitty micro, hit at around the same time, and be pretty much of equivalent effect against the same builds (if your opponent goes 10 pool they should hold pretty easily, if they go 14 gas 14p, they're pretty much dead, e.g.)
Hopefully you don't think that winning a game with 6pool + drones against a gm player makes you good, it doesn't, the difference is that you've been in that situation (cheesing like the scrub you are), let's say 100 times, and they've been in that situation (defending the mindless cheese with their specific build order), maybe a half a dozen times, or maybe 20 times if they ladder a ton. If they know they're going to play you in an important game, they'll have a friend 6 pool them a bunch of games in a row until they can hold it 99% of the time without any issues. The same does not go for "banshee openers", or "mech play".
It's pretty retarded that you can win with 6 pools this easily, I tried it out a few times myself (my mmr is decently high, I had the pleasure of getting 6 pooled by ret a couple days ago...)
On November 18 2011 18:25 Thune wrote: Who declares that macro is the right game to play? If u can play 6pool all day long and everybody knows you for that and u can still win in GM than u r good. wheres the difference to a player that is doing everygame a banshe opening and still can win in gm allthough everybody knows his builds and timings? or a player who is every game going mech and never play something different and is still able to take second place at battle in berlin? its just a different playstyle of the game and nothing more or less. if u know whats coming and still u cant win than u simply are worse than ur opponent.
allthough i really hate players who do this and be bm afterwards like u are.
The difference that you're missing is that 6 pool + drones every game is not a playstyle, it's cheese, and it has an extremely low skill cap compared to say, a gas first 3 hellion 1 banshee expand into mech build in TvT.
Playing the game hoping that your opponent doesn't have the experience/skills to stop this cheese is not really playing the game at all. Your opponent isn't playing you, they're playing themselves, there's not much difference between a silver level 6 pool and a mid masters level 6 pool, they'll have pretty shitty micro, hit at around the same time, and be pretty much of equivalent effect against the same builds (if your opponent goes 10 pool they should hold pretty easily, if they go 14 gas 14p, they're pretty much dead, e.g.)
Hopefully you don't think that winning a game with 6pool + drones against a gm player makes you good, it doesn't, the difference is that you've been in that situation (cheesing like the scrub you are), let's say 100 times, and they've been in that situation (defending the mindless cheese with their specific build order), maybe a half a dozen times, or maybe 20 times if they ladder a ton. If they know they're going to play you in an important game, they'll have a friend 6 pool them a bunch of games in a row until they can hold it 99% of the time without any issues. The same does not go for "banshee openers", or "mech play".
It's pretty retarded that you can win with 6 pools this easily, I tried it out a few times myself (my mmr is decently high, I had the pleasure of getting 6 pooled by ret a couple days ago...)
why is it more retarted to win with 6pool then to win with 11/11 or indoor forge Metalopolis? I see the point that coinflip wins (or BO wins or whatever) aren't fun and that starcraft is a game so the whole point of playing is to have fun, but in that case I would recommend that you don't use the ladder, because people on the ladder usually play to win. Or you simply calculate it through once: do over 50% of the zergs you face 6pool? 1) No! --> Play your usual build, take the 1min loss (if you think your build loses against 6pool anyway, just leave the moment you realize it's a 6pool) and queue up another game. 2) Yes! (unlikely) --> play a build that counters the 6pool in vZ.
I know it sucks to be on the receiving end of this, but as a zerg player I must say I am there 99% of my games, if it is an 11/11cheese, a canonblock, a completly unnecessary 10min tank/marine allin, 6gate-7gate allin, double factory allin, double starport allin, double stargate allin etc etc... And in 50% of the cases you simply can't know if any of this is coming, because the standard zerg BOs don't provide a fast enough scout. (if I'm not lucky enough to have a sacrifical overlord ready that is lucky to scout the right place) In the end it always comes down to guessing and being ready to make some sacrifices (f.e. scout at 8 or 9 against zerg, if your BO can't deal with a 6pool) against a player that might as well just have another CC up or might be teching instead of cheesing you. The only thing that this thread proves is that there are zerg builds out there which are being ignored in the current proplayers' metagame builds.
ofc it won't be enough to win a tournament, because your opponents will (hopefully) adapt, but seeing how we had times with Code S players whose only ability was to "Bit-By-Bit" or blink (sorry HongUn, I really like you but artosis was right, your only slightly useful PvZ build you showed was blinkstalkers). Hell we had a player who won the GSL 2times only by 6gating, and even though MC has a lot of good builds up his sleeve, all he did was 6gates because at this time noone knew how to deal with it (just look at all the pro and forum discussion from that time "hydras are the way to go", "you need tanks/ghosts", "whatever you have, he will just FF you")
On November 18 2011 18:25 Thune wrote: Who declares that macro is the right game to play? If u can play 6pool all day long and everybody knows you for that and u can still win in GM than u r good. wheres the difference to a player that is doing everygame a banshe opening and still can win in gm allthough everybody knows his builds and timings? or a player who is every game going mech and never play something different and is still able to take second place at battle in berlin? its just a different playstyle of the game and nothing more or less. if u know whats coming and still u cant win than u simply are worse than ur opponent.
allthough i really hate players who do this and be bm afterwards like u are.
The difference that you're missing is that 6 pool + drones every game is not a playstyle, it's cheese, and it has an extremely low skill cap compared to say, a gas first 3 hellion 1 banshee expand into mech build in TvT.
Playing the game hoping that your opponent doesn't have the experience/skills to stop this cheese is not really playing the game at all. Your opponent isn't playing you, they're playing themselves, there's not much difference between a silver level 6 pool and a mid masters level 6 pool, they'll have pretty shitty micro, hit at around the same time, and be pretty much of equivalent effect against the same builds (if your opponent goes 10 pool they should hold pretty easily, if they go 14 gas 14p, they're pretty much dead, e.g.)
Hopefully you don't think that winning a game with 6pool + drones against a gm player makes you good, it doesn't, the difference is that you've been in that situation (cheesing like the scrub you are), let's say 100 times, and they've been in that situation (defending the mindless cheese with their specific build order), maybe a half a dozen times, or maybe 20 times if they ladder a ton. If they know they're going to play you in an important game, they'll have a friend 6 pool them a bunch of games in a row until they can hold it 99% of the time without any issues. The same does not go for "banshee openers", or "mech play".
It's pretty retarded that you can win with 6 pools this easily, I tried it out a few times myself (my mmr is decently high, I had the pleasure of getting 6 pooled by ret a couple days ago...)
I think when you're talking skill cap you need to incorporate people's capability of handling early aggression, ie micro with limited options. Yeah 6 pool might be e z to win with but things like this forces the victim to get better which is good for overall skill level
or they can complain and call the other guy a nuB instead of getting better :|
Early aggression games mixed with macro games imo is so much more fun to watch than a 20 minute long game that was decided at 7-10 minutes 30 times over. there needs to be more acceptance of early cheeses and all ins in teh community
nah seriously, this guy is GM at what hes doing, he has great knowladge in this part of the game, while even some pros skips this part of the game and have inferior knowladge in v early game, for example i havent seen much about hold position micro, and this is somewhat changing my whole view on this matter
everyone skip this topic saying its stupid or uninportant but thats simply not true, we need to know every area of the game, even drone rushes or how to stop them, or we will see more actionjesuzes pwning "better" opponents on tourneys (hi lucifron)
do you remember how morrow humiliated strelok with 12drone rush? Thats happens when someone lacks the knowledge and discredit some part of the game.
stuff like this still happen in BW after 10 years of evolution its inevitably a part of the game, and a tool to use, know your macro, mid game and lategame but know your early game/cheese also, otherwise your knowledge is not complete
i apprieciate your thread, keep posting hilarious games
I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
I would have no problem with this strategy if you wouldent BM afterwards, I hope you can see why people get frustrated when they get 6-pooled (except Whitera<3) so adding BM to this is kind of unessesary just be the bigger man and don't BM people that you beat even if they clearly overreact and call you names.
Apart from that awesome job with explaining the details involved in 6-7 pooling some things were definately new to me. Allthough I have a hard time seeing how you can consistently beat Terrans with these cheeses, I have never died to a dronerush/6-pool so far (low masters). Im definately going to have to be ready for that now.
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on.
Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore.
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on.
Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore.
im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum.
so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz".
sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably)
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on.
Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore.
im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum.
so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz".
sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably)
but that's the point. You can't go for the build as a standard build. You can throw it in occasionally and that's it. And we see superearly pool builds occasionally. I guess one can argue that it should hapen more often, but how much more? a lot of protoss players already open Forge first because of 6pools (there is no other reason to go forge before nexus than an early pool). Terrans in tournaments often start their second supply depot way early, just to deny scouting, but that would also work against a 6pool. Even zergs like nestea play 10pool builds sometimes and losira has beaten kyrix' early pool 2times with a hatch first build. Arguably it would be possible to outmicro your opponent and get some wins in tournaments with this strategy. But 2days later your former opponent (if he is a pro that cares) will just know about all those tricks himself and then we're back to even. I don't deny that it is a viable 1 or 2 time thing, but that is what's already happening. I don't deny that it can be improved, but it just comes down to 1 or 2games you might win. That's not the definition of a strategy that can be performed repeatetly, it's a simple cheese and even if some proplayers included it in their repertoire, that would have no impact whatsoever on the current metagame.
6 pooling makes you good at ladder, not actual sc2.
I know people that do some of the most retard freindly strats from 2 port banshee non stop to 3gate voidray to 2 base baneling bust.
These strats work on LADDER because you fight someone different every, single, time. Which is fine, but in a series you're probably not going to win against someone of similar skill.
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on.
Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore.
im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum.
so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz".
sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably)
but that's the point. You can't go for the build as a standard build. You can throw it in occasionally and that's it. And we see superearly pool builds occasionally. I guess one can argue that it should hapen more often, but how much more? a lot of protoss players already open Forge first because of 6pools (there is no other reason to go forge before nexus than an early pool). Terrans in tournaments often start their second supply depot way early, just to deny scouting, but that would also work against a 6pool. Even zergs like nestea play 10pool builds sometimes and losira has beaten kyrix' early pool 2times with a hatch first build. Arguably it would be possible to outmicro your opponent and get some wins in tournaments with this strategy. But 2days later your former opponent (if he is a pro that cares) will just know about all those tricks himself and then we're back to even. I don't deny that it is a viable 1 or 2 time thing, but that is what's already happening. I don't deny that it can be improved, but it just comes down to 1 or 2games you might win. That's not the definition of a strategy that can be performed repeatetly, it's a simple cheese and even if some proplayers included it in their repertoire, that would have no impact whatsoever on the current metagame.
i completely agree with you and i never said anything about using it every single game in tournaments. still as you say losira beat kyrix 2 times because kyris just chose the wrong strategy. if he would have used my strategy he would have better chances to win the game (thats at least my opinion and i stand for it). so why waste the games u throw in to cheese (what obvs was the case of kyrix, same as he wants to be unexpectable) with some not layed out 6pools wher eu just produce lings. and not try to perfectionize a 6pool that actually works? sure u might say i spend more time in making up this streats than ill ever gain from them in a tournament. but others could gain if they threw it in once or twice in their lifetime. sure i have nothing from it but isnt there always someone who does such "crap" in your eyes?
im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats
I didn't approve of how you provoked the pros, and then posted it is here as if it was them being BM, but I'll ignore that for now.
It is nice to see someone show that there is skill in cheese, taking away the "bronze-to-diamond-in-a-day" reputation these kind of very early game cheeses have. As you say, cheese is a very powerful tool, also at the highest level, and should be seen as such. Then the implications on lower levels is another story, that I hope we will not have to discuss here.
I have not read the 28 pages, so sorry if i repeat, but here are a few question to you habit: 1) You say that many of your loses are from people blind countering you. Which means that you are well above 50% winrate vs "normal" openings. Where with "normal" I mean according to todays metagame. Is this because ---a) people dont know how to react to it when it comes, or ---b) the current metagame has too greedy openings? Would you be able to hold this attack yourself, if you would play vs yourself (or someone doing this build as well as you do...) and do a "normal" opening?
2) White-ra, one of the best Europeans, seemed to react to it by "well, lets attack with the probes and see what happens" and got ridiculously outmicroed. Barely killed a single drone. I dont know exactly what he did, first some a-move, then some mineral walk and a-move again, while you were just standing still and attacking (hold position? not sure..) I didnt feel that white-ra handled it perfectly. What is the correct response to these rushes? Maybe you can add a few lines to the guides you have of the rush in different matchups, describing what the best reaction is when you see the lings/drones coming up your ramp. Or if there are some small changes you can do to your scouting pattern that increases the chance to see it coming, and how to react if you do.
On November 18 2011 23:30 Bad_Habit wrote: im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats
People think you're "lowclass" because you talk shit while repeatedly 6pooling people and then posting a thread about it, not because you elaborated on how to do a 6pool well.
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on.
Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore.
im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum.
so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz".
sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably)
but that's the point. You can't go for the build as a standard build. You can throw it in occasionally and that's it. And we see superearly pool builds occasionally. I guess one can argue that it should hapen more often, but how much more? a lot of protoss players already open Forge first because of 6pools (there is no other reason to go forge before nexus than an early pool). Terrans in tournaments often start their second supply depot way early, just to deny scouting, but that would also work against a 6pool. Even zergs like nestea play 10pool builds sometimes and losira has beaten kyrix' early pool 2times with a hatch first build. Arguably it would be possible to outmicro your opponent and get some wins in tournaments with this strategy. But 2days later your former opponent (if he is a pro that cares) will just know about all those tricks himself and then we're back to even. I don't deny that it is a viable 1 or 2 time thing, but that is what's already happening. I don't deny that it can be improved, but it just comes down to 1 or 2games you might win. That's not the definition of a strategy that can be performed repeatetly, it's a simple cheese and even if some proplayers included it in their repertoire, that would have no impact whatsoever on the current metagame.
i completely agree with you and i never said anything about using it every single game in tournaments. still as you say losira beat kyrix 2 times because kyris just chose the wrong strategy. if he would have used my strategy he would have better chances to win the game (thats at least my opinion and i stand for it). so why waste the games u throw in to cheese (what obvs was the case of kyrix, same as he wants to be unexpectable) with some not layed out 6pools wher eu just produce lings. and not try to perfectionize a 6pool that actually works? sure u might say i spend more time in making up this streats than ill ever gain from them in a tournament. but others could gain if they threw it in once or twice in their lifetime. sure i have nothing from it but isnt there always someone who does such "crap" in your eyes?
im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats
I'm totally with you that I say: if I want to do something like this, I better should do it right. Yet I somehow fail to see what the big difference is. I guess there are some microtricks in it and if you train it you can get better with it and seeing how it doesn't take long to greatly improve micro for this strategy, it is definatly worth training it. But I think you're overestimating these things. 6pool mainly works due to metagame reasons, not to due to micro reasons.
also don't think that I consider you "lowclass human being". Also I couldn't care less about what strategy you earned your GM with. Yet I see why people (including me) get pissed off by kids who try to ruin one's gaming experience with bm. If someone chooses to play unpopular strategies and has success with it, I'm the last one who will tell him to stop. But if that guy keeps flaming around, I see why people (including me) don't like him.
After this thread i have gotten six pooled so many times its not even funny. Especially on Xel Naga, one of the smallest maps in the ladder pool. I just dont see how you can beat a terran that scouts at the normal "proper" time. I am not sure if the zerg's im playing (mid masters) are just not good at it, but all i do is pull all my scvs away and run in a circle until my marine pops out and micro accordingly.
On November 18 2011 20:21 Zeiasweigha wrote: I really think pros should try to use this strategy even in tournaments. For example, if Ret (known as a macro player) would suddenly use this strategy, he might get an easy win against some players. But of course, always doing it is a different story
well, there is also a difference if you do that on the ladder against a pro who just wants to herpderp around with builds and train his mechanics and earn money by streaming and commentating, or if you do this in a tournament... A progamer on the ladder will most likely just aclick his stuff against your stuff and queue a new game and all he lost was 2mins of his life, in a tournament game however, he will really try to micro his heart out and he will just know about every risk he takes and most likely not play a build that is bad vs 6pool, if he can't afford to lose. And even if someone has 60% success with it on the ladder... That's 40% chance of losing. How intelligent is it to use this build if you're Ret, rather than one of his standard builds that has proven to win him a lot of tournaments? (which means it has way more than 60% winchance in his hands)
Also, exactly players like Ret, Idra or NesTea are known to throw in such a build once in a while, if they can afford to lose a game in a boX-series.
you have to count in the blind counters (6 pylon 6 forge) (6 depo 7 rax) (8 pool) of the guys i met twice and more and lose to them (thats like 80% of my loses) same as u have to count in the russian maphack front and some random always 10 pooler etc.
if someone like idra plays against someone like ret, i would consider my strat as a 90% win if u have the mechanics to micro well enough.
and I would argue that in this scenario the cheesing player has way less than 50% winchance, simply due to the fact that tournament maps don't suck. I think you said it yourself at some place... It's not a good strategy on TDA. Now consider that TDA rushdistance is pretty average in mappools with Crevasse, Terminus, Calm before the storm, Daybreak and so on.
Also I think you have to consider that a player that thinks of himself of being capable to win a tournament, thinks he is capable of having ~80%winrate in the tournament. Why would you want to trade 80% against a coinflip? Especially as this strategy is a thing you can only do very few times. After that, people will just learn to deal with it and learn to scout vs it when playing against you. And then it's not even a coinflip anymore.
im not saying you can win a tournament by purely doing it. im just saying the chance of taking a map of a very equal player to you is higher than the 50% you usually would have. and a outclassed player can get the favor in his hands by winning a map like this in a series of games because he then will have the momentum.
so i think the cheese really would do well in a tournament same as it could lead to a new mindset of all races to not start to greedy so you have the basic to be econimicwhise ahead by just playing a normal game when ppl would have somewhere back in their mind "hey this dude 6pools like a bozz".
sure when you are nestea (best zerg, even tho hes not perform to his best atm) i would not use such a strat since he should be favorite against everyone (unless mvp probably)
but that's the point. You can't go for the build as a standard build. You can throw it in occasionally and that's it. And we see superearly pool builds occasionally. I guess one can argue that it should hapen more often, but how much more? a lot of protoss players already open Forge first because of 6pools (there is no other reason to go forge before nexus than an early pool). Terrans in tournaments often start their second supply depot way early, just to deny scouting, but that would also work against a 6pool. Even zergs like nestea play 10pool builds sometimes and losira has beaten kyrix' early pool 2times with a hatch first build. Arguably it would be possible to outmicro your opponent and get some wins in tournaments with this strategy. But 2days later your former opponent (if he is a pro that cares) will just know about all those tricks himself and then we're back to even. I don't deny that it is a viable 1 or 2 time thing, but that is what's already happening. I don't deny that it can be improved, but it just comes down to 1 or 2games you might win. That's not the definition of a strategy that can be performed repeatetly, it's a simple cheese and even if some proplayers included it in their repertoire, that would have no impact whatsoever on the current metagame.
i completely agree with you and i never said anything about using it every single game in tournaments. still as you say losira beat kyrix 2 times because kyris just chose the wrong strategy. if he would have used my strategy he would have better chances to win the game (thats at least my opinion and i stand for it). so why waste the games u throw in to cheese (what obvs was the case of kyrix, same as he wants to be unexpectable) with some not layed out 6pools wher eu just produce lings. and not try to perfectionize a 6pool that actually works? sure u might say i spend more time in making up this streats than ill ever gain from them in a tournament. but others could gain if they threw it in once or twice in their lifetime. sure i have nothing from it but isnt there always someone who does such "crap" in your eyes?
im just getting tired that people think im a lowclass human beeing because i made up this strats
I'm totally with you that I say: if I want to do something like this, I better should do it right. Yet I somehow fail to see what the big difference is. I guess there are some microtricks in it and if you train it you can get better with it and seeing how it doesn't take long to greatly improve micro for this strategy, it is definatly worth training it. But I think you're overestimating these things. 6pool mainly works due to metagame reasons, not to due to micro reasons.
also don't think that I consider you "lowclass human being". Also I couldn't care less about what strategy you earned your GM with. Yet I see why people (including me) get pissed off by kids who try to ruin one's gaming experience with bm. If someone chooses to play unpopular strategies and has success with it, I'm the last one who will tell him to stop. But if that guy keeps flaming around, I see why people (including me) don't like him.
On November 19 2011 00:04 Cascade wrote:
I have not read the 28 pages, so sorry if i repeat, but here are a few question to you habit: 1) You say that many of your loses are from people blind countering you. Which means that you are well above 50% winrate vs "normal" openings. Where with "normal" I mean according to todays metagame. Is this because ---a) people dont know how to react to it when it comes, or ---b) the current metagame has too greedy openings?
these strats are layed out to beat the standart strats from all races. not only the greedy openings.
also i would say that u need a ton of micro and not just the strat. u will get in many different situations and u always have to react perfectly because this strat is not very forgiving
On November 19 2011 00:29 Perfect wrote: After this thread i have gotten six pooled so many times its not even funny. Especially on Xel Naga, one of the smallest maps in the ladder pool. I just dont see how you can beat a terran that scouts at the normal "proper" time. I am not sure if the zerg's im playing (mid masters) are just not good at it, but all i do is pull all my scvs away and run in a circle until my marine pops out and micro accordingly.
i guess those zergs are just not good with it. did u actually see the thread that i pull all worker and explain how to snipe the marine the fastest etc?
normal terran play means 13-14 scout so my drones hit faster than his scouts comes and he cant walloff since i can block it
I have not read the 28 pages, so sorry if i repeat, but here are a few question to you habit: 1) You say that many of your loses are from people blind countering you. Which means that you are well above 50% winrate vs "normal" openings. Where with "normal" I mean according to todays metagame. Is this because ---a) people dont know how to react to it when it comes, or ---b) the current metagame has too greedy openings?
these strats are layed out to beat the standart strats from all races. not only the greedy openings.
also i would say that u need a ton of micro and not just the strat. u will get in many different situations and u always have to react perfectly because this strat is not very forgiving
I dont think you understood the question. Let me try to reformulate:
If the pros start training how to execute these attacks, and also how to execute the defense, would it still have an above 50% winrate?
If it would, it would force a change in metagame towards more defensive builds that can defend this rush more than 50% of the times. (it would change the Nash equilibrium if you know game theory. ) That is, if people kept playing the same builds they do now, it would be enough to rush them every game and you would beat them.
If it is enough for the pros to learn how to execute the defense (from a normal build) properly, then nothing will change, apart from the pros having to put in some extra training.
it would still beat prober defense expect against protoss. (unless u mean blind 2nd deposit on 12) then for sure the defense would win more than the offense
no, the question was vs the usual build in the current meta-game. If you could beat even a blind counter then you would break the game completely and blizzard would have to change things, but I hope it's not that bad.
So then you say that this will change the ZvZ and ZvT metagame at high level, as most of todays openers lose to your builds (assuming both sides execute well)?
no i gave an interview in germany where i mention that it wont change the proscene at all since they just dont care and feel confident with what they do. and that is good as it is
On November 19 2011 01:49 Bad_Habit wrote: no i gave an interview in germany where i mention that it wont change the proscene at all since they just dont care and feel confident with what they do. and that is good as it is
But you think that a zerg pro that learned to execute these rushed would win most games with it as long as the other players didn't adapt their openings? You should get some zerg pro (TLO? ) and teach him all the ins and outs. Even if other players started adapting their openers to the player, that would mean that the usual builds would be more viable, and you could do the rush less often (according to some Nash equilibrium again).
If what you say is accurate, the zergs are giving away the advantage of allowing macro-cheese from T and Z almost every game.
I love the ZvZ 7 pool, just owned some guy with it, that from the beginning was BM. (i glhf'ed he replied with "fuck you") Anyway i muted him right away, and after watching the replay I saw how he tried to BM afterwards ^^ I did some mistakes, but won anyway.
On November 20 2011 00:22 Bad_Habit wrote: a tip, dont commit to fast if he wouldnt have produced so many drones he would have won the game after u commited to early
I have no idea what you are talking about (: But I know what I did wrong. It was the first (and probably only) time that I will do this.
lol not gonna lie.... As a masters NA zerg i was like: .... naw im not gonna look in this thread its gonna destroy my play.... Then im watching cella's stream and he 6 pool drone pulls and kills a terran and im like.... maybe the terran was bad.... then he does it again... and im like fine ill read the thread
Only good thing about your thread is now that it doesn't work on ladder anymore. You can't get past diamond with this set of tactics now because everybody is basically prepared. No protoss loses to 6 pool anymore even with forge first. They all put mineral pylon blind now.
Zerg players should definitely blindly open fast fast pool in ZvP.
As a toss player I think this is always a great choice given 95% of current builds all open with FFE, and 6 pooling will put you on even grounds or sometimes you can win the game.
Zerg players should definitely blindly open fast fast pool in ZvP.
As a toss player I think this is always a great choice given 95% of current builds all open with FFE, and 6 pooling will put you on even grounds or sometimes you can win the game.
Fear not, it is happening. Hopefully someone out there will find a catch-all to preventing and beating zerg cheese. I get cheesed pretty much every time vs zerg. They are making the same mistake that I did, though. I 4 gated to masters, and now I cant beat anyone because they can beat it effortlessly. Poor me, but the people that only cheese will end up the same way.
I actually hope that blizzard gets so many complaints that they make a balance patch for the spawning pool or zerglings lol.
Thanks for the suggestions! I've tried the Protoss and the Zerg versions in ladder and have been impressed with the results. I'm a high platinum 1v1 player. I wonder how long it'll be before I start playing against people who can counter this.
Excellent thread, good read. I'm usually pretty immune to early pools as I like to get a fast 2nd depot to wall-in for scout denial/defense, so the more people do this the better my win-loss will look I guess.
On November 19 2011 21:47 maggy0 wrote: I love the ZvZ 7 pool, just owned some guy with it, that from the beginning was BM. (i glhf'ed he replied with "fuck you") Anyway i muted him right away, and after watching the replay I saw how he tried to BM afterwards ^^ I did some mistakes, but won anyway.
On November 27 2011 21:19 GGPope wrote: Excellent thread, good read. I'm usually pretty immune to early pools as I like to get a fast 2nd depot to wall-in for scout denial/defense, so the more people do this the better my win-loss will look I guess.
On November 23 2011 18:32 Laurens wrote: just met Habit on ladder, and lost to a 4 worker harrass, really frustrating :<
thats what im working on right now! :O
How do you react if they a-move 5 of their workers onto you?
im smileing because i know he loses more miningtime and all his timings get lose and he will be in a unsure situation for him when im in a situation i have been in plenty of times before.
Hi, I just play for the second time against habbit on ladder and he rape me, I really analize the replay and try on my smurf and it's really hard to counter but difficult to execute, mastery habbit gg are really well build.
As a protoss player I wanna thank the person who created this topic for getting me free wins half the time against Zerg lol. So many players 6 pool now its pretty much an auto win every time for me.
Great thread Mister, putting the 6 pool to that level isn't nothing and unlike many people think, it's not easy to do it well. Great job, really; feeling Im gonna try a bit with a smurf one day.
6 pooling is part of the game. Meaning, it is a valid strategy. It's your own fault for losing to 6 pool. Give this guy some credit for making 6-7pool useful. Doing same strategy over and over and over again can be very boring and frustrating, but he kept doing it to refine it. Damn you zergs -___-
I guess its time for me to cheese every game with protoss
On November 28 2011 08:04 Flood1993 wrote: What is your W/L ratio against terran doing this? Cause in bronze every single terran wall ins extremely quick...
On November 09 2011 01:38 ppterodactyl wrote: Further proving that Grandmaster means nothing.
User was warned for this post
Such a stupid ignorant point of view.
GM players are all really good. It just happens that Habit is better than them at one specific strategy that he spent a lot of time practicing and perfecting. That doesn't mean GM players are bad because they aren't experts in every single specialized area of the game... I'm sure if they all practiced against his 6pool they would rarely lose to it.
Whitera the MannerDragon... You can put all the explanation you want in the OP about how complexe 6/7 pool is, it's still not as complexe and doesn't require as much skill as playing a game lasting over 8 minutes.
On November 28 2011 09:47 sorrowptoss wrote: Whitera the MannerDragon... You can put all the explanation you want in the OP about how complexe 6/7 pool is, it's still not as complexe and doesn't require as much skill as playing a game lasting over 8 minutes.
But developing and refining a build like OP did (on his own) does take a lot of skill. Most Starcraft players follow some sort of a guide or steal a build from a pro. Being an innovator is something people don't appreciate enough because execution is such a huge part of the game.
hehe since you can wall in with a pylon and a forge on ladder, i don't really see an issue with 6 pools on ladder. If someone looses to a 6 pool with ffe, they either were to greedy, or should learn more about how to ffe. Even the ops 6 pool which is really well thought out is holdable with a huge advantage. And you need to know how to cheese, why not take the best build out their into your bo map. It was actually fun to have a friend play it against me, now i feel 6 pool proof haha. But i learned ffe in bw the hard way, friend only saw a chance in winning by 6 pooling me >.<. And wallins are a bit harder in bw, well except of ramp blocks with probes.
On November 28 2011 08:04 Flood1993 wrote: What is your W/L ratio against terran doing this? Cause in bronze every single terran wall ins extremely quick...
i felt for quite a while that terran was my best mu with 6pooling. because i just completely break their normal timings. arround 60-65% (what is a huge number, dont listen to threads like "hurghs 99% bo win vs terran with 3 motherships"
On November 29 2011 02:32 akalarry wrote: what do you do if zerg does fast pool like 8/10 pool? is it just auto loss, or do you still try to go for it?
what do you do against toss that doesn't wall off when going gate first but instead walls the choke where the zealot should be with probes?
u rarely can win but i dont bother trying and leave most of the time, 12-14 is beatable
On November 29 2011 15:56 Seiferz wrote: how in the world do you get 37 second 6 pool? I can get to 40 at the earliest.
good split/mineral statcking close mineral patches i would assume?
probably also if you have a better PC? so that you can start at 0:00 instead of like 0:01 lol or even worse sometimes T_T
yeah and internet i guess. on NA my pools come in general 3 seconds later than in europe, when i really play my best (most of the time i dont really dronestack to the best) i usually get 38 or 39 seconds but 37 is definetly possible.
just tried if its still possible to ladder into master with this strats (didnt use them 100% but from time to time)
On November 29 2011 15:56 Seiferz wrote: how in the world do you get 37 second 6 pool? I can get to 40 at the earliest.
good split/mineral statcking close mineral patches i would assume?
probably also if you have a better PC? so that you can start at 0:00 instead of like 0:01 lol or even worse sometimes T_T
yeah and internet i guess. on NA my pools come in general 3 seconds later than in europe, when i really play my best (most of the time i dont really dronestack to the best) i usually get 38 or 39 seconds but 37 is definetly possible.
just tried if its still possible to ladder into master with this strats (didnt use them 100% but from time to time)
made 71-8 and account is in master now
You mind uploading a replay where you mangae to get at least 39 seconds?
I am a protoss player, tried the 6 pool thing with zerg and is totally garbage. Even in platinum morons close up before scouting . From 10 games with rush i lost 10.
i dont know i never had problems and just brought an account up to masterleague with 81-8, didnt cheese every game but some of them and it worked quite well.
even tho i have to admit 2 terrans just closed their chokes before leaving
it could also work easier at higher level because players tend to be more greedy. terran can be pretty hard sometimes. some of them do 1 rax fe so they'll put down an early supply depot and also 2 rax which is an instant loss. lower level terrans tend to scout much earlier and can see it coming and lower level zergs tend to do early pool more.
i play from low gold up to high master so i went through all the classes and even tho the goldplayer really early pooled more often i still could outplay them
can you not kill the forge on certain maps? i tried it on xel naga and i was able to kill the forge just as the cannon finished, but he was able to wall with a second gateway. what would you have done?
I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
On December 01 2011 00:49 anoxys wrote: I am a protoss player, tried the 6 pool thing with zerg and is totally garbage. Even in platinum morons close up before scouting . From 10 games with rush i lost 10.
replays? you must be doing something wrong if u managed to lose 10/10.
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
You didn't understand the poster above you. Hero never goes blind nexus first. He does it when he is able to scout 14 pool or later in time. Knowing that Ret might cheese or not has nothing to do with whether or not he will go Nexus first.
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
You didn't understand the poster above you. Hero never goes blind nexus first. He does it when he is able to scout 14 pool or later in time. Knowing that Ret might cheese or not has nothing to do with whether or not he will go Nexus first.
hero sets up blind 15 nexus from time to time. he doesnt bother to send a 2nd probe scout if he doesnt find his oponnent at the first position. the least thing it would do is that he would doublescout after he got early pooled once.
the eco 7 pool is a perfect method, ull push ahead by just killing 1 worker and the obendened forge+ pylon. he can even suicide his lings in the minerals before the cannon finishes, then send 4 drones to denie the cannon on the lower ground and build 2 more sets of lings on 18 supply (after building hatch + overlord) to take down the buildings ^_^
even tho i have to say my 4 worker harass vs terra is really doing well right now, i made alot of progress in timings etc. i feel like it always pushes me far ahead and im like never behind. playing with this 4 worker harass i set up my expension on 16 supply (if i dont lose worker while harassing) and build my pool on 18/18, playing gasless for a while. will probably add something about it to the mainpost the next few days (with replays)
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
You didn't understand the poster above you. Hero never goes blind nexus first. He does it when he is able to scout 14 pool or later in time. Knowing that Ret might cheese or not has nothing to do with whether or not he will go Nexus first.
Hero did blind 15 nexus -> forge in game 1 (Antiga Shipyard) and 3 (Metalopolis) against Ret. I've used this strategy in both of these maps and defeated people going forge first, what more going nexus first? Of course the skill of Hero against my opponents are not even comparable but I really think it was an easy win for Ret if he would take a risk and punish Hero for going nexus first. Also, Hero knows Ret won't cheese after playing against him numerous times when practicing and Ret should take advantage of that situation. I don't think Hero would go blind 15 nexus if he knows Ret is capable of doing 6 pools or similar builds unless the map makes him get away with it.
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
You didn't understand the poster above you. Hero never goes blind nexus first. He does it when he is able to scout 14 pool or later in time. Knowing that Ret might cheese or not has nothing to do with whether or not he will go Nexus first.
Hero did blind 15 nexus -> forge in game 1 (Antiga Shipyard) and 3 (Metalopolis) against Ret. I've used this strategy in both of these maps and defeated people going forge first, what more going nexus first? Of course the skill of Hero against my opponents are not even comparable but I really think it was an easy win for Ret if he would take a risk and punish Hero for going nexus first. Also, Hero knows Ret won't cheese after playing against him numerous times when practicing and Ret should take advantage of that situation. I don't think Hero would go blind 15 nexus if he knows Ret is capable of doing 6 pools or similar builds unless the map makes him get away with it.
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
You didn't understand the poster above you. Hero never goes blind nexus first. He does it when he is able to scout 14 pool or later in time. Knowing that Ret might cheese or not has nothing to do with whether or not he will go Nexus first.
Hero did blind 15 nexus -> forge in game 1 (Antiga Shipyard) and 3 (Metalopolis) against Ret. I've used this strategy in both of these maps and defeated people going forge first, what more going nexus first? Of course the skill of Hero against my opponents are not even comparable but I really think it was an easy win for Ret if he would take a risk and punish Hero for going nexus first. Also, Hero knows Ret won't cheese after playing against him numerous times when practicing and Ret should take advantage of that situation. I don't think Hero would go blind 15 nexus if he knows Ret is capable of doing 6 pools or similar builds unless the map makes him get away with it.
But Ret on the other hand doesn't know whether hero will go blind nexus first or early scout+ nexus first, so again a 6pool is also just a "blind" 6pool. (as there is no other 6pool I put it in "") Also you can't "punish" something with 6pool. Punishment requires knowledge about what your opponent does.
Why doesn't blizard just make Hatch give 9 supply, make pool requires overlord and remove 1-st free zerg's overlord... I don't get it. Just bunch of stupid deaf people (blizard).
On December 02 2011 08:25 Jimbo77 wrote: Why doesn't blizard just make Hatch give 9 supply, make pool requires overlord and remove 1-st free zerg's overlord... I don't get it. Just bunch of stupid deaf people (blizard).
Wow you are really ignorant man, what is your problem? it is fine as it is
On December 01 2011 02:57 Zeiasweigha wrote: I've been mixing my games using this strategy and I must thank Bad_Habit for teaching us. A lot of people might say its garbage but it really does play mind games to a lot of people especially if I meet them again in ladder. If you watched MLG (Hero vs Ret), Hero was able to abuse Ret by sometimes going even Nexus first knowing that Ret would always be in macro mode. If Ret has a strategy similar to this, he could take a game from his opponent which is huge in a tournament and it might also play mind games in his opponent playing the next set. Though some people would argue that its very risky and cheap, I'd still believe that Ret (or other macro players) will be able to catch a lot of players by surprise and get an easy win. I'd have to admit though that when HoTS is released, this is going to be harder to pull off against Protoss.
Nexus first is standard in PvZ when facing 14 pool or later.
Yes and Hero was very confident in using that build because he knows Ret will not be aggressive making this 6 pool strategy more viable for him. If Ret would use this against him and win, there is a chance that Hero will hesitate to go Nexus first again in the next game (will depend on the map though).
You didn't understand the poster above you. Hero never goes blind nexus first. He does it when he is able to scout 14 pool or later in time. Knowing that Ret might cheese or not has nothing to do with whether or not he will go Nexus first.
Hero did blind 15 nexus -> forge in game 1 (Antiga Shipyard) and 3 (Metalopolis) against Ret. I've used this strategy in both of these maps and defeated people going forge first, what more going nexus first? Of course the skill of Hero against my opponents are not even comparable but I really think it was an easy win for Ret if he would take a risk and punish Hero for going nexus first. Also, Hero knows Ret won't cheese after playing against him numerous times when practicing and Ret should take advantage of that situation. I don't think Hero would go blind 15 nexus if he knows Ret is capable of doing 6 pools or similar builds unless the map makes him get away with it.
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
Just about your comments on your YouTube videos. Well written guide otherwise
WhiteRa-never thought I'd hear the day when WhiteRa says something about balance after losing LiquidTLO-"most known cheeser"...CombatEX sound familiar?
bad habit i cant wait for your guide on how to do the 4drone harass against terran it seems like it can be pretty effective
im trying to test the best way to do it and heres what ive found
on pretty much all maps if you scout early you can send out the 4drones and start 4drone harassing pretty fast. most terrans try to make the rax at their ramp making it so tasty and awesome when you drone harass that sucker
the 4drones kill the scv making the rax so well and really mess up the terrans wall/rax, which means you can easily go 14pool and pump tons of lings to the terran and completely destroy him with endless waves of zerglings because he has no wall and you now have 10 larva a minute pumping tons of lings at the terran
ill try to perfect this idea myself and post my findings on the subject, but i believe the strategy can be very strong
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Really sad to see how positive people are. In the good old days during BW, a post like this would be destroyed and everyone cheering would be flamed to crap. Fine, you got to grandmaster by cheesing, that's an interesting experiment. But everyone in this topic going "oh, I need to try that, Oh that's epic, Oh, that's so much fun, Oh I got BMed so much fun!", now that's just dumb. Cheesing is stupid and boring, it's not fun. I would say cheesing someone on the ladder is way worse than BM.
Pros have a reason to do it, they need to mix it up to not be predictable. But if you're just a random nobody, win your games straight instead.
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Why would Ret want to throw away games just to make him less predictable... "Thank you for your donation"
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Why would Ret want to throw away games just to make him less predictable... "Thank you for your donation"
because I've seen him throw away games because he doesn't even consider very early pressure. Why would Jaedong "throw away" games with 4 pools? To keep his opponent in a BoX honest maybe? As I was saying in my previous post if you cared to actually read it instead of just going over the letters, players can basically play greedy as hell or exploit some early pressure timing against Ret because 100% of the time he will go for a macro game. I think Bad Habit has already shown that a six pool is not automatically throwing a game away. Anyway, it's up to Ret to decide his gameplan. He is just one of the examples of players that might benefit from mixing things up a little bit in tournament play. Maybe he already does but I haven't seen it. Oh and it is funny how you and your mom say the same things to me ;P
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Why would Ret want to throw away games just to make him less predictable... "Thank you for your donation"
because I've seen him throw away games because he doesn't even consider very early pressure. Why would Jaedong "throw away" games with 4 pools? To keep his opponent in a BoX honest maybe? As I was saying in my previous post if you cared to actually read it instead of just going over the letters, players can basically play greedy as hell or exploit some early pressure timing against Ret because 100% of the time he will go for a macro game. I think Bad Habit has already shown that a six pool is not automatically throwing a game away. Anyway, it's up to Ret to decide his gameplan. He is just one of the examples of players that might benefit from mixing things up a little bit in tournament play. Maybe he already does but I haven't seen it. Oh and it is funny how you and your mom say the same things to me ;P
Statistically 6pools are bad, no matter if you're known for macro or not. And 6pools really don't keep an opponent honest. You win if you get lucky that your opponent doesn't scout you fast enough, nothing else.
1.- Refused to acknowledge he was outsmarted 2.- Sees cheese as inferior when cheese is nothing more than another form of strategy - it reveals poor scouting and reaction-time/thinking 3.- Calls you an idiot/loser/retard 4.- Tells himself 10 times he'd beat you - looks like he needs reassurance 5.- Tells you its pointless
Perhaps he hasn't seen pro's 6pool before, what a sad sight. NJ man
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Why would Ret want to throw away games just to make him less predictable... "Thank you for your donation"
because I've seen him throw away games because he doesn't even consider very early pressure. Why would Jaedong "throw away" games with 4 pools? To keep his opponent in a BoX honest maybe? As I was saying in my previous post if you cared to actually read it instead of just going over the letters, players can basically play greedy as hell or exploit some early pressure timing against Ret because 100% of the time he will go for a macro game. I think Bad Habit has already shown that a six pool is not automatically throwing a game away. Anyway, it's up to Ret to decide his gameplan. He is just one of the examples of players that might benefit from mixing things up a little bit in tournament play. Maybe he already does but I haven't seen it. Oh and it is funny how you and your mom say the same things to me ;P
Statistically 6pools are bad, no matter if you're known for macro or not. And 6pools really don't keep an opponent honest. You win if you get lucky that your opponent doesn't scout you fast enough, nothing else.
I'm not talking about only 6 pools, but also sneaky roach allins and the like. I am a big fan of Ret and when he gets some momentum in his games it is beautiful to watch and insane to see how fast he maxes out. But sometimes I feel he can get macro tunnelvision which makes it easier for lesser opponents to beat him than it should be, considering his mechanics. He is a well known player and his opponents can get so much info on him and his playstyle when they prepare for him. Basically that is the main reason I feel he could benefit from mixing it up in a BoX once in a while (once in a while obviously, the reason I like him is his macro style and he should focus on that)
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Why would Ret want to throw away games just to make him less predictable... "Thank you for your donation"
because I've seen him throw away games because he doesn't even consider very early pressure. Why would Jaedong "throw away" games with 4 pools? To keep his opponent in a BoX honest maybe? As I was saying in my previous post if you cared to actually read it instead of just going over the letters, players can basically play greedy as hell or exploit some early pressure timing against Ret because 100% of the time he will go for a macro game. I think Bad Habit has already shown that a six pool is not automatically throwing a game away. Anyway, it's up to Ret to decide his gameplan. He is just one of the examples of players that might benefit from mixing things up a little bit in tournament play. Maybe he already does but I haven't seen it. Oh and it is funny how you and your mom say the same things to me ;P
Statistically 6pools are bad, no matter if you're known for macro or not. And 6pools really don't keep an opponent honest. You win if you get lucky that your opponent doesn't scout you fast enough, nothing else.
That is keeping your opponent honest. If he slacks of with his scouting he lose, that's sort of the definition. Not that I suggest it's a good idea to 6 pool but it has certain merits. If you faced a player like Sjow (when he rarely scouted early) you'd be a fool not to try some early cheese in a boX imo.
You can also say that Ret won't spend time trying to win a single game in a bo3 when he knows that his strengths lies in macro games. Why would he suddenly abandone a gameplan that makes him among the most fierced euro zergs for a quick builder order win that might as well lose him the game if Hero were to scout?
I don't have problem with people wanting to try this out. I lost to someone who had read this thread probably like a week ago. Fair enough it's a good build if you have a clear cut follow up to it but it's not that impressive and not as educating as you may think it is. It relies heavily on the element of surprise and the fact that you're more used to play a "non standard" game then your opponent.
C'mon, you have to admit Ret is incredibly predictable. Throwing in 6 pools would actually make him a little more difficult to read imho, especially against team mates considering his style. Basically, he is known as the zerg who will go for as much drones as possible, and I've seen him lose games against 'lesser' opponents mainly because they basically know his style due to his exposure since beta (and BW). Ret wins his games due to his macro oriented play but he also loses his games to his macro oriented play. In a BoX there is nothing wrong in putting your opponent on the wrong foot, the trick is to pick the right game/map
Why would Ret want to throw away games just to make him less predictable... "Thank you for your donation"
because I've seen him throw away games because he doesn't even consider very early pressure. Why would Jaedong "throw away" games with 4 pools? To keep his opponent in a BoX honest maybe? As I was saying in my previous post if you cared to actually read it instead of just going over the letters, players can basically play greedy as hell or exploit some early pressure timing against Ret because 100% of the time he will go for a macro game. I think Bad Habit has already shown that a six pool is not automatically throwing a game away. Anyway, it's up to Ret to decide his gameplan. He is just one of the examples of players that might benefit from mixing things up a little bit in tournament play. Maybe he already does but I haven't seen it. Oh and it is funny how you and your mom say the same things to me ;P
Statistically 6pools are bad, no matter if you're known for macro or not. And 6pools really don't keep an opponent honest. You win if you get lucky that your opponent doesn't scout you fast enough, nothing else.
That is keeping your opponent honest. If he slacks of with his scouting he lose, that's sort of the definition. Not that I suggest it's a good idea to 6 pool but it has certain merits. If you faced a player like Sjow (when he rarely scouted early) you'd be a fool not to try some early cheese in a boX imo.
nope, if he doesn't scout AND does a build that should lose in a wellcontrolled battle he should lose... If he plays one rax expand with double depot at the front he doesn't need a scout. If he plays 11/11 with both rax in the wall he doesn't need to scout. (those builds have walls up before the 6pool hits, if an opponent tries to block this, you are able to pull enough scvs to deal with the block before the 6pool hits) That's why it is such a gamble. True you can watch a ton of your opponents replays and then see the weaknesses against 6pool, but that is nothing but a gamble again in a prepared series, because you have to expect your opponent to NOT do what he usually does (he knows that you prepare for him), unless what he does is standard play. (which is able to defend 6pools) I won't argue against the fact that people don't follow these boX rules very often, but in the end people HAVE TO mix it up if they do risky stuff. If they don't they DON'T have to mix it up. (standard play. every game)
On December 02 2011 18:22 Tobberoth wrote: Really sad to see how positive people are. In the good old days during BW, a post like this would be destroyed and everyone cheering would be flamed to crap. Fine, you got to grandmaster by cheesing, that's an interesting experiment. But everyone in this topic going "oh, I need to try that, Oh that's epic, Oh, that's so much fun, Oh I got BMed so much fun!", now that's just dumb. Cheesing is stupid and boring, it's not fun. I would say cheesing someone on the ladder is way worse than BM.
Pros have a reason to do it, they need to mix it up to not be predictable. But if you're just a random nobody, win your games straight instead.
..You've been here since august 2010. And who gives a shit what strats people do? 6 pools are viable, and shit like this keeps super greedy players in line, especially in boX tournament matches.
On December 02 2011 18:22 Tobberoth wrote: Really sad to see how positive people are. In the good old days during BW, a post like this would be destroyed and everyone cheering would be flamed to crap. Fine, you got to grandmaster by cheesing, that's an interesting experiment. But everyone in this topic going "oh, I need to try that, Oh that's epic, Oh, that's so much fun, Oh I got BMed so much fun!", now that's just dumb. Cheesing is stupid and boring, it's not fun. I would say cheesing someone on the ladder is way worse than BM.
Pros have a reason to do it, they need to mix it up to not be predictable. But if you're just a random nobody, win your games straight instead.
..You've been here since august 2010. And who gives a shit what strats people do? 6 pools are viable, and shit like this keeps super greedy players in line, especially in boX tournament matches.
Well 6pool only has a chance vs protoss if they don't double scout and find you last + play greedy + have bad micro
Im glad this thread popped up, I never really knew how weak i was to a 6 pool until this thread popped up and everyone started 6 pooling me . But kind of a funny story the other day laddering i got 6 pooled 5 games back to back ... then i got another pvz saw my opponant wasnt 6 pooling me and i had totally forgotten what to do. So when the roach rush showed up i had nothing to defend it and was floating tons of minerals.
But thanks for exposing a vunerability that lead me to do a bunch of practice games vs a zerg friend. So now i feel i have a reasonable handle on 6 pools.
On December 02 2011 16:18 roymarthyup wrote: bad habit i cant wait for your guide on how to do the 4drone harass against terran it seems like it can be pretty effective
im trying to test the best way to do it and heres what ive found
on pretty much all maps if you scout early you can send out the 4drones and start 4drone harassing pretty fast. most terrans try to make the rax at their ramp making it so tasty and awesome when you drone harass that sucker
the 4drones kill the scv making the rax so well and really mess up the terrans wall/rax, which means you can easily go 14pool and pump tons of lings to the terran and completely destroy him with endless waves of zerglings because he has no wall and you now have 10 larva a minute pumping tons of lings at the terran
ill try to perfect this idea myself and post my findings on the subject, but i believe the strategy can be very strong
my 4 drone haras hits right when he starts to build the depot (trying to get a cancel on it) not the rax
and i back it up with a macrointense style not a zergling allin because they easily can wallin again in that time but ur eco will always jump ahead, even if he only follows you arround with 5 worker it payed off ^_^
On December 06 2011 07:59 Ricedorf wrote: i tried 6pool the last week, and played an acc from gold to dia top8 in 6 days..
i struggle a bit on 4 players map to scout where opp is, does it make sense to send 2 drones in different direction ?
u have to scout 2 directions vs terrans. doesnt make sense vs protoss and zergs because u really dont need to know to fast whre he is or block the choke
On Nerazim Crypt where u send your Overlord + Drone when playing vs Z or P ? I already lost some games cause my overlord spotted an location (against z / creep) too late and i choose the closer one..
On December 07 2011 13:05 Battleweary wrote: That was killer content. I think my head is ready to explode from what I learned watching the different strategies. It's interesting how diverse the gaming styles can be.
I've been using this guide called the Shokz Guide by a top 20 player called Random and it helped quite a bit. It's not free, but it has a pretty rockin' interface.
That guide is garbage. I see you're just plugging an affiliate link as well. GG
If anyone wants to purchase a real guide, get the GM Manual.
On December 07 2011 09:51 Ricedorf wrote: On Nerazim Crypt where u send your Overlord + Drone when playing vs Z or P ? I already lost some games cause my overlord spotted an location (against z / creep) too late and i choose the closer one..
The most effective way has to be to send the ovie to the close by air position and the drone to the close by ground position, there's no way to get the information needed faster.
There's so much useful information you can extraxt from this thread (and I don't 6pool). The drone stacking vs an all in in ZvZ, the hold position micro, great stuff ^_^.
On December 07 2011 13:05 Battleweary wrote: That was killer content. I think my head is ready to explode from what I learned watching the different strategies. It's interesting how diverse the gaming styles can be.
I've been using this guide called the Shokz Guide by a top 20 player called Random and it helped quite a bit. It's not free, but it has a pretty rockin' interface.
i really would have liked that comment witout the shocks guide part :x
I dont get how you dont atleast get a warning for that bs. BeastyQQ? Get out. Nothing in the OP is new anyway. Never seen so much BM in one post before and people are on their knees for it. >.<'
On November 09 2011 03:46 ForgottenOne wrote: You are an idiot. I hate it when I meet people like you on the ladder. Useless pricks that waste my time. I have about an hour a day to play and/or watch SC2. And I hate it when I play stupid people and/or when I watch retarded games on stream.
Don't get me wrong, I don't get mad when I lose to cheese. But I get really sad and I find it a waste of my time (even if I win the game) and want to quit because it's better to do other things than watch idiots doing trivial, uncool and not fun at all things while pretending they are playing the game. You are playing a game in which you pretend you are playing SC2.
User was temp banned for this post.
Lol! Maybe in your games you should play the no rush maps, with like rocks in between, I believe beginner maps have it. Really, you have to deal with it. You can early scout the zerg player, do that and I believe you can usually block this rush.
As terran player, say I did no scout the 6 pool, what is best crisis management to deal with 6 pool? For both 6 pool and cannon rush I do bunker to try to hold it off. cannon rushes marauder in bunker does a good job. 6 pool I do bunker at mineral line, but it depends on if marine can get to the bunker ....Or i can skip orbital command and make a fast 2nd depot if my SCV sees the drones being fishy.
On December 27 2011 05:44 Ricedorf wrote: i tried 7rr against terran last days.. i guess its quite decent against reactor hellion fe? did any1 took same experience?
think any terran who scouts zerg is not doing FE will assume you do bene bust or 7rr and will make a bunker which stops it pretty easily
Just watched a game of you against Ret on stream. I now see that your guide does not include a How to for stream cheating and BM? Might want to put that in there.
^ You aren't creating accounts to bump your own thread are you?
Bad_Habit has great micro, and did the best 6 pool I've ever seen. There's a complete difference between a GM, and a Masters 6 pool. I'd also say that I've never seen a diamond do a 6 pool correctly. Truly the best 6 pooler around.
But I beat his build with hatch first, as seen here:
On December 30 2011 11:00 JojoE wrote: Just watched a game of you against Ret on stream. I now see that your guide does not include a How to for stream cheating and BM? Might want to put that in there.
I don't think you realize how early the decision to 6pool or 7pool is made lol.
6-pool is definitely broken. I opened forge first on Shakuras and scouted after the first pylon. I found my opponent last and saw his last zerglings on the way. I reacted instantly by making a pylon in my main base but even the pylon didn't finish before many zerglings got there. I did try to get a cannon up anyway, but it was too late and simply impossible to hold at that point. If I scout my opponent last and open forge first, Zerg is guranteed a win when 6-pooling. This takes away both the skill and fun from the game. It seems extremely stupid.
I've read this guide and adapted it it really is awesome.
I'm only asking because I put so much work in following in Bad_Habit's footsteps.
How do you deal with an enemy zerg 10 pool. How do you react to a 10 pool Bad_Habit can you post a replay?
I run into a lot of zerg 10 pools and I get crushed by it always. What's the best way to react to this? You must have come up with some type of strategy for this to help keep you in the game right?
And give some advice?? on what's best in this situation ZvsZ?
Thanks.
Also when playing against random do you have any tips? I sort of adopted the build but random is scariest to play against I find.
On February 23 2012 00:12 Mutown wrote: 6-pool is definitely broken. I opened forge first on Shakuras and scouted after the first pylon. I found my opponent last and saw his last zerglings on the way. I reacted instantly by making a pylon in my main base but even the pylon didn't finish before many zerglings got there. I did try to get a cannon up anyway, but it was too late and simply impossible to hold at that point. If I scout my opponent last and open forge first, Zerg is guranteed a win when 6-pooling. This takes away both the skill and fun from the game. It seems extremely stupid.
if you 9 scout as protoss is no way zerg can bea you with 6 pool when you 12-13 forge . dont make up things saying " when i first scouted zerlings were alredy out" . post a replay if you think is so op .
On February 23 2012 00:12 Mutown wrote: 6-pool is definitely broken. I opened forge first on Shakuras and scouted after the first pylon. I found my opponent last and saw his last zerglings on the way. I reacted instantly by making a pylon in my main base but even the pylon didn't finish before many zerglings got there. I did try to get a cannon up anyway, but it was too late and simply impossible to hold at that point. If I scout my opponent last and open forge first, Zerg is guranteed a win when 6-pooling. This takes away both the skill and fun from the game. It seems extremely stupid.
if you 9 scout as protoss is no way zerg can bea you with 6 pool when you 12-13 forge . dont make up things saying " when i first scouted zerlings were alredy out" . post a replay if you think is so op .
edit; This is correct.
On Tal Darim Altar PvZ a 6 or 7 pool will hit the protoss base before you can scout it/react, but this is assuming you went nexus first (in your FFE). And only if you scout the zerg main last. You don't remotely lose outright, but you will likely lose probes. It is very likely that lings will be out before you scout the zerg main (scouting last) but you can still react in time if your timings were fluid.
No replay required, this is discussed in mostly every FFE thread. Probe control and poor timing is why one loses, but saying there's no way a toss can lose in incorrect. Nexus before forge is optimal if you believe you can hold it, usually it's not worth the risk.
On February 23 2012 00:12 Mutown wrote: 6-pool is definitely broken. I opened forge first on Shakuras and scouted after the first pylon. I found my opponent last and saw his last zerglings on the way. I reacted instantly by making a pylon in my main base but even the pylon didn't finish before many zerglings got there. I did try to get a cannon up anyway, but it was too late and simply impossible to hold at that point. If I scout my opponent last and open forge first, Zerg is guranteed a win when 6-pooling. This takes away both the skill and fun from the game. It seems extremely stupid.
ehm... there is only 2 starting positions on shakuras... with a 9 scout, you can easily react by walling off with 3 big buildings (forge gate gate) and a cannon behind it in time with ~14-15 probes.
^ The OP is actually GM level material. He's really fucking good.
This guide does not prove that you can get to GM by 6 pooling. It proves that you can get to GM with any build if you are a GM level player. For example, MC could get to GM with 4 gate or cannon rushes easily. The average player, could not.
I know it would come as a surprise, but a 6 pool executed by a GM is like a completely different build compared to a 6 pool executed by a masters (much less a diamond, or bronze). I've never seen a diamond do a 6 pool competently, on the flip side, I've never seen someone pull off a 6 pool as well as BH.
On March 11 2012 18:41 Belial88 wrote: ^ The OP is actually GM level material. He's really fucking good.
This guide does not prove that you can get to GM by 6 pooling. It proves that you can get to GM with any build if you are a GM level player. For example, MC could get to GM with 4 gate or cannon rushes easily. The average player, could not.
I know it would come as a surprise, but a 6 pool executed by a GM is like a completely different build compared to a 6 pool executed by a masters (much less a diamond, or bronze). I've never seen a diamond do a 6 pool competently, on the flip side, I've never seen someone pull off a 6 pool as well as BH.
You don't have to be of MC's caliber to 4-gate or canon-rush into GM, players such as Deezer and CombatEx could easily do that while BM'ing like there is no tmrw just like this guy Bad-Habit. He clearly enjoys BM a lot and players like this guy, deezer and some other dudes out there are a thorn in this gaming community.
This guy is without doubt a low masters players, and would not be able to have an above 50% win ratio without 6-pooling or drone rushing. I could very well imagine that even by doing those strats he could have a below 50% win ratio.
On November 09 2011 01:37 Bad_Habit wrote: before you flame, an admin told me to repost it after i add some information about the strats because the old thread had already to much hate in it. just leave the hate of this and go to my blog. feel free to flame there, i sure do care.
Er, no, I won't leave the hate in your blog since I don't hate you. I don't hate the strats, even. I hate this thread in the Strategy forum.
Not really for any reason other than it totally fails to get its own actual point, though flaming and trolling avilo, then claiming he flamed you and having the gall to post it in your thread was fucking classy too. Look, you write an entire, in-depth thread and yet don't actually mention what it is your style is exploiting. Maybe you don't even know?
Hint: It's the metagame. Period. Not your sick ability to 'win with 6 pools' as you claim.
Look, there's nothing better than the sanity check of a cheese explosion to reset everyone's expectations and prevent extreme greed becoming the norm, killing off the use of vulnerable openings by shattering their illusion of stability. In fact I actively encourage my zerg playing friends to cheese more in masters, because protoss are doing some hella stupid greed openings (like nexus first) that deserve to get punished. And a guide explaining how best to execute such cheese at a high level of play is a good idea for a thread. A guide explaining Catz' 4-drone harass (yes, he invented it, so much for "my 4 drone harass") in the modern map pool would be a great thread.
This isn't that thread.
By leaving the metagame fact out of your post, and in fact by not making it your main point, you indirectly imply that 6-pooling is stable as a style, which it isn't. If terran religiously walls-in or scouts early, you lose. No ifs, no buts, no micro or tricks will get you out of it, despite your 500 word ZvT sub-guide. You are fucking *dead* if he plays standard. Which I do in 90% of my games. If protoss opens anything but FE, you are dead unless he fucks up. Ok in ZvZ you can open cheese stably, but if a zerg knows how to micro, you are behind. The ball is out of your court and in the hands of lady luck once you put the pool down.
But since zergs know this, they don't 6 pool often. Since players at higher levels know that zergs know this, they stop walling off and cut corners on scouting. And you can and should punish the shit out of them by 6-pooling their asses back to solid play.
But don't do that and claim it's your amazing micro skills that let you 'win' with such a style. Especially putting it on the TL strat forum instead of a blog is just going to make 1000 frustrated lower level players cheese twenty times without the ability to execute your micro, get worse, and reduce the overall quality of play in Starcraft across the board.
I'm sorry, this thread is fucking retarded, and so is whichever mod approved you reposting it. Even more retarded is every single mod that saw this thread get necroed and didn't lock it instantly.
EDIT: And you are a graceless jerk. The Avilo BM is not something a normal person would post with pride. BMing Catz like that was a dick-move. BMing Hero was a dick-move. Posting the WhiteRa video, catching him with a brainfart moment, no matter how much of a classy guy he is that he said he didn't mind, was a dick-move.
On November 09 2011 01:37 Bad_Habit wrote: before you flame, an admin told me to repost it after i add some information about the strats because the old thread had already to much hate in it. just leave the hate of this and go to my blog. feel free to flame there, i sure do care.
Er, no, I won't leave the hate in your blog since I don't hate you. I don't hate the strats, even. I hate this thread in the Strategy forum.
Not really for any reason other than it totally fails to get its own actual point, though flaming and trolling avilo, then claiming he flamed you and having the gall to post it in your thread was fucking classy too. Look, you write an entire, in-depth thread and yet don't actually mention what it is your style is exploiting. Maybe you don't even know?
Hint: It's the metagame. Period. Not your sick ability to 'win with 6 pools' as you claim.
Look, there's nothing better than the sanity check of a cheese explosion to reset everyone's expectations and prevent extreme greed becoming the norm, killing off the use of vulnerable openings by shattering their illusion of stability. In fact I actively encourage my zerg playing friends to cheese more in masters, because protoss are doing some hella stupid greed openings (like nexus first) that deserve to get punished. And a guide explaining how best to execute such cheese at a high level of play is a good idea for a thread. A guide explaining Catz' 4-drone harass (yes, he invented it, so much for "my 4 drone harass") in the modern map pool would be a great thread.
This isn't that thread.
By leaving the metagame fact out of your post, and in fact by not making it your main point, you indirectly imply that 6-pooling is stable as a style, which it isn't. If terran religiously walls-in or scouts early, you lose. No ifs, no buts, no micro or tricks will get you out of it, despite your 500 word ZvT sub-guide. You are fucking *dead* if he plays standard. Which I do in 90% of my games. If protoss opens anything but FE, you are dead unless he fucks up. Ok in ZvZ you can open cheese stably, but if a zerg knows how to micro, you are behind. The ball is out of your court and in the hands of lady luck once you put the pool down.
But since zergs know this, they don't 6 pool often. Since players at higher levels know that zergs know this, they stop walling off and cut corners on scouting. And you can and should punish the shit out of them by 6-pooling their asses back to solid play.
But don't do that and claim it's your amazing micro skills that let you 'win' with such a style. Especially putting it on the TL strat forum instead of a blog is just going to make 1000 frustrated lower level players cheese twenty times without the ability to execute your micro, get worse, and reduce the overall quality of play in Starcraft across the board.
I'm sorry, this thread is fucking retarded, and so is whichever mod approved you reposting it. Even more retarded is every single mod that saw this thread get necroed and didn't lock it instantly.
EDIT: And you are a graceless jerk. The Avilo BM is not something a normal person would post with pride. BMing Catz like that was a dick-move. BMing Hero was a dick-move. Posting the WhiteRa video, catching him with a brainfart moment, no matter how much of a classy guy he is that he said he didn't mind, was a dick-move.
Good post. I commend the ability to get in GM with a 6 pool, period. However, this isn't a viable option for most people.
I'm a diamond zerg on the cusp of masters. I can tell you this isn't a viable strategy for me at all. As the OP pointed out, its very unforgiving and one wrong move here or there and you're out of the game completely.
I tend to agree with the poster above me that this probably has a lot to do with the meta game, which I think will work against you (personally) eventually.
With all that said, I appreciate the detailed write-up and its going to help me in the case I decide to 6 pool in a few games.
On November 09 2011 01:37 Bad_Habit wrote: before you flame, an admin told me to repost it after i add some information about the strats because the old thread had already to much hate in it. just leave the hate of this and go to my blog. feel free to flame there, i sure do care.
Er, no, I won't leave the hate in your blog since I don't hate you. I don't hate the strats, even. I hate this thread in the Strategy forum.
Not really for any reason other than it totally fails to get its own actual point, though flaming and trolling avilo, then claiming he flamed you and having the gall to post it in your thread was fucking classy too. Look, you write an entire, in-depth thread and yet don't actually mention what it is your style is exploiting. Maybe you don't even know?
Hint: It's the metagame. Period. Not your sick ability to 'win with 6 pools' as you claim.
Look, there's nothing better than the sanity check of a cheese explosion to reset everyone's expectations and prevent extreme greed becoming the norm, killing off the use of vulnerable openings by shattering their illusion of stability. In fact I actively encourage my zerg playing friends to cheese more in masters, because protoss are doing some hella stupid greed openings (like nexus first) that deserve to get punished. And a guide explaining how best to execute such cheese at a high level of play is a good idea for a thread. A guide explaining Catz' 4-drone harass (yes, he invented it, so much for "my 4 drone harass") in the modern map pool would be a great thread.
This isn't that thread.
By leaving the metagame fact out of your post, and in fact by not making it your main point, you indirectly imply that 6-pooling is stable as a style, which it isn't. If terran religiously walls-in or scouts early, you lose. No ifs, no buts, no micro or tricks will get you out of it, despite your 500 word ZvT sub-guide. You are fucking *dead* if he plays standard. Which I do in 90% of my games. If protoss opens anything but FE, you are dead unless he fucks up. Ok in ZvZ you can open cheese stably, but if a zerg knows how to micro, you are behind. The ball is out of your court and in the hands of lady luck once you put the pool down.
But since zergs know this, they don't 6 pool often. Since players at higher levels know that zergs know this, they stop walling off and cut corners on scouting. And you can and should punish the shit out of them by 6-pooling their asses back to solid play.
But don't do that and claim it's your amazing micro skills that let you 'win' with such a style. Especially putting it on the TL strat forum instead of a blog is just going to make 1000 frustrated lower level players cheese twenty times without the ability to execute your micro, get worse, and reduce the overall quality of play in Starcraft across the board.
I'm sorry, this thread is fucking retarded, and so is whichever mod approved you reposting it. Even more retarded is every single mod that saw this thread get necroed and didn't lock it instantly.
EDIT: And you are a graceless jerk. The Avilo BM is not something a normal person would post with pride. BMing Catz like that was a dick-move. BMing Hero was a dick-move. Posting the WhiteRa video, catching him with a brainfart moment, no matter how much of a classy guy he is that he said he didn't mind, was a dick-move.
+1. This probably has more success in gm than like platinum league. I've actually lost to six pools a couple times on ladder because I was too greedy, thinking I can just delay my second depot because what kind of idiot Zerg would 6 pool a Terran. Why? I don't even...
Thanks so much for the guide. I was 7 pooling my way through diamond when I was having sever difficulties going up against terrain. I always just macroed behind and lost. Im glad somebody did the hardwork for me so that I no longer have to figure all the different timings.
1) Pool @ 200 minerals 2) Overlord @ 100 minerals 3) When pool finishes 3 pairs of Zerglings (leave drones mining) 4) Since you have an extra overlord, you can CONSTANTLY produce zerglings!
On April 01 2012 09:10 Cyluss wrote: Best Six-Pool:
1) Pool @ 200 minerals 2) Overlord @ 100 minerals 3) When pool finishes 3 pairs of Zerglings (leave drones mining) 4) Sine you have an extra overlord, you can CONSTANTLY produce zerglings!
It's GG unless your opponent walls off.
Try it and see!
This is gamechanging. Please remove your post before Zerg players start being unbeatable in tournaments.
On April 01 2012 09:10 Cyluss wrote: Best Six-Pool:
1) Pool @ 200 minerals 2) Overlord @ 100 minerals 3) When pool finishes 3 pairs of Zerglings (leave drones mining) 4) Since you have an extra overlord, you can CONSTANTLY produce zerglings!
It's GG unless your opponent walls off.
Try it and see!
thanks to your glory input i just made #1 gm on the korean server. thank you alot pro, im willing to share all the money ill earn in tournaments withy ou know. u had to be a genius to figure that out
Very nice. I don't think someone's a bad player because they don't do macro strategies. It's like those Masters who only got there by 3raxing and 4gating, and it's always why I think lower league players Bronze and Silver stick to those kind of all-ins. It helps your macro, micro, and doesn't force you to play long and wins games.
You, you've become perfectly knowledgeable of how to do early game Zerg rushes. That's very good. It doesn't mean you're an "inferior player." You got good with a style and you stuck by it, and you based how you learned the matchups, through your style.
Just comes to show you that hard work and determination works anywhere, and you can do great things with it.
On April 01 2012 09:10 Cyluss wrote: Best Six-Pool:
1) Pool @ 200 minerals 2) Overlord @ 100 minerals 3) When pool finishes 3 pairs of Zerglings (leave drones mining) 4) Since you have an extra overlord, you can CONSTANTLY produce zerglings!
It's GG unless your opponent walls off.
Try it and see!
I actually prefer ... 1) Overlord to one spawn location, use shift to rally it towards the cross position afterwards if on 4 player maps. 2) Double up mining drones on closest minerals. 3) @200 minerals pool (use one of the drones not doubled up if one exist - map dependent). 4) @50 minerals drone (rally point to mine near an extractor). 5) @50 minerals drone (rally point to mine near the other extractor - mine just once, then check spawn location 2 on 4 player maps). 6) @100 minerals, overlord (rally to your expansion and ramp, to check for counter rushes, proxies, etc). 7) @spawning pool finish, you have 170 minerals, 3 sets of zerglings rally to the 4th spawn location (cross position). 8) Set rally point of hatchery to one of the zerglings. 9) @larvae spawn, extractor trick to make another zergling. 10) @larvae spawn, double extractor trick to make another zergling. 11) Your drone that scouted one expansion point, move back home to continue mining. 12) Make an informed guess about where the opponent is (did he scout you? Then he is not cross position! Your drone saw one location, he is either there or other - not cross, most likely, if he didn't scout very early - your overlord will confirm. In ZvZ, check for overlords with your first overlord). 13) @larvae spawn, overlord (12 of 10 supply now). 14) Add the first 6 zerglings to a control group. Not all zerglings. This way, zergling 7,8 and 9,10 will continue moving (not attack moving) to your first 6 lings, and you can add them to the control group then. That way, they don't stop on the way to attack a forge, pylon, scouting scv probe drone or similar). 15) Micro your heart out killing probes/drones/scv's (if you got into the base vs T) while ... 16) @overlord finish and 150 minerals, make queen. 17) Make drones to 17 / 18 supply. 18) @larvae spawn, overlord at 17/18.
... decide how to continue, depending on opponents race.
Did I mention I hate playing vs random so I often 6 pool them?
But the OP probably have better specific builds vs each race, I just do this vs random as a general 6 pool build.
for terrrans, tvz on 2players map or only two spawn positions, i like to scout with depot scv(scv that built supply depot), so if zerg goes some kind of 6pool you scout him, and walloff in time, if he goes hatch first, you can ussually block with engbay, forcing pool. All in all, you win.
There shouldn´t be aproblem for terrans to hol if off unless they scout really late or not at all. Even if Zerg have 2 Drones trying to block your wall, you can manage it by moving 5-6 SCVs and still build your depot in time. But i can understand why it is a successfull strategy. Most players either scout extremly late or not at all just to get a slight economy boost in the early game. In that case it´s just a punishment for beeing greedy but not unstopable.
I dont know if ur still reading this thread but i think i found a way how to have a safe tie with 14/14 or even a win.
I send all my drones in his base. Than he will sorround the larva where the lings should spawn. I cancel the larva and build 2 spines in his base. The 6 pooling zerg cant sorround the larva and prevent the 2 spines at the same time.
On April 02 2012 01:08 Sc2Invader wrote: I dont know if ur still reading this thread but i think i found a way how to have a safe tie with 14/14 or even a win.
I send all my drones in his base. Than he will sorround the larva where the lings should spawn. I cancel the larva and build 2 spines in his base. The 6 pooling zerg cant sorround the larva and prevent the 2 spines at the same time.
remember u will lose ur base and all u will have left are 2 spines in ur oponnents base. no lings only worker. so u cant kill off ur oponnents base since u need the creep. once u kill the hatch the 7pooling zerg has won. so it might end up in a tie but u will not win
On April 02 2012 04:46 Sc2Invader wrote: Yeah its for a tie. Im interested in what your reaction would be.
Close! Here, I posted a guide on how to beat every type of 6 pool with hatch first on steppes of war. Your hypothesis on base trading with a drone pull is correct, however!
It becomes a sort of numbers game, but in your favor. You need to get at least 2 lings out to force a tie, and 4 lings out to guarantee a win (when going hatch first). It is definitely possible for a 6 pooler to surround your larva, though. You have to send a drone to his base though.
If you are going 14 pool, it's much easier to hold though.
I also have a game where I beat Bad Habit himself when going hatch first, too, and show the numbers on how there was no way for BH to have possibly won (since he made lots of excuses).
all i said is that there was no way for you to win the game, only for me to lose, and since nothing was on the line i went to try to bust ur army+spine when i never would have done it in a game that would not be 100% useless.
once more i stated before the game that all u could possibly get is a tie.
and ur mistaken, its way easier to hold with a hatch first canceld and a pool later on than with a 14/14 opening because with a hatch first u have so much overmins and can produce so much units. a 14/14 means u have 1 less drone than usual (gas) and alot of wasted mining time (time you mine gas) and its harder to get a tie than opening hatch first.
by calling ur guide rubbish i didnt mean to excuse me losing, tahts just my opinion since the only good infos are copied out of my guide on actually how to 6pool :D
^ Wrong! It's the hatch first players game to lose.
Based on the play of the hatch first player, he will either win, or force a tie.
If he gets 2 lings out, he'll force a tie (he will force it, not you). If he gets 4 lings out, he will win. He should be able to get at least 2 out though.
I don't think 14/14 makes it harder.... you didn't throw down a hatch, so thats' a drone that's mining instead of being a building. The 75 minerals you lose from cancel is 1 and a half lings. You can cancel the gas anyways, and since you aren't scouting like you do in hatch first, you have a drone mining for much more.
I put plenty of good info on my guide, much more than yours. I beat you, so it's obvious who has the better guide ^^
ur wrong. i spent 3 seasons to figure out how 6pool works to the limit. and u should trust my judgement. just because u copied 90% out of my post and played like 20 games vs a guy you told to 6pool (and you knew it was coming) doesnt make u an expert. hatch first is way better than 14 gas 14 pool against 6pool
On April 02 2012 04:46 Sc2Invader wrote: Yeah its for a tie. Im interested in what your reaction would be.
Close! Here, I posted a guide on how to beat every type of 6 pool with hatch first on steppes of war. Your hypothesis on base trading with a drone pull is correct, however!
It becomes a sort of numbers game, but in your favor. You need to get at least 2 lings out to force a tie, and 4 lings out to guarantee a win (when going hatch first). It is definitely possible for a 6 pooler to surround your larva, though. You have to send a drone to his base though.
If you are going 14 pool, it's much easier to hold though.
I also have a game where I beat Bad Habit himself when going hatch first, too, and show the numbers on how there was no way for BH to have possibly won (since he made lots of excuses).
Belial, did you happen to write a guide on defeating 6 pool? I think you should probably brag a little more and plug your thread, Just in case people didn't notice the first twelve times.
I did this today. Mid diamond, I went 18-20. When i got placed against master players, that made my record tilt downward.
It was fun I had one game go to 3 probes vs 2 drones. (i oddly enough had 63 minerals in the bank) so the game went on... turn into a 51 min long zvp and I don't play zerg. I am a Terran. So game reset I try a 10 pool he has walled off with 2gate, forge and cannon. Oh boy was i behind. It did turn into a fun game. I won in the end no gg . Why would people wish gl hf in the begging and then bm when the other person trys to have some fun as an off race? I don't get that about people in Sc2.
I also would get the same person in a row. That was very tricky only once did it work
. My zvz I was 50-50. The only way i won 14pool was when they screwed up.
My zvt was horrendous. The 11/11 was a dead counter. I had no idea what to do. Sometimes i could lure many scvs out of the ramp and then follow them back in. That was nice. I found that my 2nd drone coming out is not timed right also getting the pool out earlier than 40s I am not sure how you do that?
The zvp was easy pz. Either 12 worker rush with hold/attack micro or 6 pool. I dont know how to win if they made a cannon in the mineral line. That worked against me.
That was my fun today. I have never played that many games of 1v1 in a night I felt fearless going into them. "i know what i'm doing an you scout and counter?" - i thought.
Gl Hf i may try this more while the ladder is locked. - KnightWulf.
On April 02 2012 04:46 Sc2Invader wrote: Yeah its for a tie. Im interested in what your reaction would be.
Close! Here, I posted a guide on how to beat every type of 6 pool with hatch first on steppes of war. Your hypothesis on base trading with a drone pull is correct, however!
It becomes a sort of numbers game, but in your favor. You need to get at least 2 lings out to force a tie, and 4 lings out to guarantee a win (when going hatch first). It is definitely possible for a 6 pooler to surround your larva, though. You have to send a drone to his base though.
If you are going 14 pool, it's much easier to hold though.
I also have a game where I beat Bad Habit himself when going hatch first, too, and show the numbers on how there was no way for BH to have possibly won (since he made lots of excuses).
Belial, did you happen to write a guide on defeating 6 pool? I think you should probably brag a little more and plug your thread, Just in case people didn't notice the first twelve times.
Every time Bad Habit necros this guide to get more attention (check post dates, he always bumps this guide every month...), I'll be there to plug my guide just as shamelessly, and remind people that his build is not favored against a hatch first player who responds correctly. At worst, the hatch firster forces a tie (which is different from the 6 pooler forcing the tie). Which is made obvious in the game we played.
Of course, I have no problem also stating that Bad Habit is definitely GM level material. He's not some random person who just 6 pools his way to GM (as he seems to imply, like with the title) - he's a GM level player, who's really fucking good, who executed a particular build with GM level macro, micro, and decision making (if you think these factors aren't relevant in 6 pool, or 6 pool defense, you are very wrong - there's a reason why MC can 4 gate like no one else can). But I still beat him with the defense outlined in my guide.
Gl Hf i may try this more while the ladder is locked. - KnightWulf.
You do know that your MMR still rises and falls just the same? For all intents and purposes, the ladder lock really doesn't do anything (unless you are vying for GM, or are in GM). It just means when new season comes on, you'll be immediately put into a different league if you fell or rose just the same if the ladder wasn't locked. You probably know this, but just making sure you realize that ladder lock doesn't mean your games don't matter. MMR is what really matters, the shiny button you have really means nothing.
I am aware of it. I was tired of 1v1 and wanted to get my mmr down to bronze so i could have fun again. my comp cant handle late game. It lags too much but 18-20 I still moved up 20 ranks in ladder and got pitted against higher level people. high diamond and low masters. I just wanted to share my fun I had thanks to your build.
I think doing the same thing over and over again get really boring... I don't know how someone is capable of only doing this cheese. Even if I agree that its fun every once in a while.
It's all really the same thing in this game when you get down to it. Just like with a game where you always go 3 base, going 6/7/8 pool can go in many different ways. the game is just as diverse when 6 pooling as anywhere else... and i'm sure he's capable of doing more than just early pool. only a gm can get go gm with 6 pool, there's a reason he's ranked that high. no one else could reach gm with 6 pool, unless they were actually good.
On May 19 2012 19:41 Belial88 wrote: It's all really the same thing in this game when you get down to it. Just like with a game where you always go 3 base, going 6/7/8 pool can go in many different ways. the game is just as diverse when 6 pooling as anywhere else... and i'm sure he's capable of doing more than just early pool. only a gm can get go gm with 6 pool, there's a reason he's ranked that high. no one else could reach gm with 6 pool, unless they were actually good.
^ im sure he's horrible at macro game, but he's no diamond and when it comes to 6 pooling he's very good. hes probably as practiced at it as any gm is at whatever they practice.
On May 19 2012 19:41 Belial88 wrote: It's all really the same thing in this game when you get down to it. Just like with a game where you always go 3 base, going 6/7/8 pool can go in many different ways. the game is just as diverse when 6 pooling as anywhere else... and i'm sure he's capable of doing more than just early pool. only a gm can get go gm with 6 pool, there's a reason he's ranked that high. no one else could reach gm with 6 pool, unless they were actually good.
On May 19 2012 21:23 Bad_Habit wrote: there are rumours this awesome bad_habit guy just recently made gm with the last race, now he made it with all 3 races O_O
wow really? =O
(did you get there with mainly cheese, or "normal" aka a variety of builds and/or just 1 "standard" build? talking about openings only here)
a ton of 2 base allins as protoss, since its impossible to lose if u dont make mistakes, rest was pretty normal, some 2 probe harasses, some 2-4 scv harasses some bunkerrushes, everything
On May 21 2012 00:38 Bad_Habit wrote: a ton of 2 base allins as protoss, since its impossible to lose if u dont make mistakes, rest was pretty normal, some 2 probe harasses, some 2-4 scv harasses some bunkerrushes, everything
which 2 base all in did you use in pvt? 2 colossus push? and in pvp just 4 gate?
On November 09 2011 01:37 Bad_Habit wrote: before you flame, an admin told me to repost it after i add some information about the strats because the old thread had already to much hate in it. just leave the hate of this and go to my blog. feel free to flame there, i sure do care.
You shouldn't care about others flaming you. They are haters and haters gonna hate when they're pwned by 6 pools and get angry. This is a perfectly legit strat and worthy of GM.
On May 21 2012 00:38 Bad_Habit wrote: a ton of 2 base allins as protoss, since its impossible to lose if u dont make mistakes, rest was pretty normal, some 2 probe harasses, some 2-4 scv harasses some bunkerrushes, everything
which 2 base all in did you use in pvt? 2 colossus push? and in pvp just 4 gate?
common builds, 6 gate allins, immortal allin, colossu allin, storm semi-allin, zealot archon allin. all off that stuff that cant be stopped :D
On May 19 2012 21:23 Bad_Habit wrote: there are rumours this awesome bad_habit guy just recently made gm with the last race, now he made it with all 3 races O_O
I'm not buying those rumors... I challenge this guy to a PvP Bo5.
All strats are viable in sc2. It's up to the player to choose which ones you want to perfect and use. This strat I don't really like at all. If you 6 pool, or for that matter cannon rush your way to GM it doesn't really mean much IMO... I'm sure you can get to GM with viable cheeses, espeically if you practice them. Just like if I practice 1 rax FE a lot, I can get into Masters or GM. It will require more skill and time, but you will learn other skills (macro, decision making, army control of higher tier units etc). That to me sounds like more fun, rather than controlling tier one units all day. I'm sure it's funny the first 100 times...but then?
The difference is the pros have many viable builds, true and tested. If you cheese every game, you can be hard countered quite easily in tournament settings. This six pooling strat for me is more entertainment, than anything else....
I don't get the hate for this strat. I feel like it is not as powerful as cannon rush but is a good tool to have in your arsenal. On the other hand...6 POOLING IS SO GODDAMN BORING even when you get the winning streaks...
On May 21 2012 00:38 Bad_Habit wrote: a ton of 2 base allins as protoss, since its impossible to lose if u dont make mistakes, rest was pretty normal, some 2 probe harasses, some 2-4 scv harasses some bunkerrushes, everything
which 2 base all in did you use in pvt? 2 colossus push? and in pvp just 4 gate?
common builds, 6 gate allins, immortal allin, colossu allin, storm semi-allin, zealot archon allin. all off that stuff that cant be stopped :D
Ye that stuff is tough to hold. Most times you can't hold it even with bunkers and SCVs repairing! It's kinda silly actually Here's to hoping there is a good way to dealing with it
On May 19 2012 21:23 Bad_Habit wrote: there are rumours this awesome bad_habit guy just recently made gm with the last race, now he made it with all 3 races O_O
I'm not buying those rumors... I challenge this guy to a PvP Bo5.
his drone micro is to awesome to get 3 raxed with supply call down! sorry bro :D
On May 19 2012 21:23 Bad_Habit wrote: there are rumours this awesome bad_habit guy just recently made gm with the last race, now he made it with all 3 races O_O
I'm not buying those rumors... I challenge this guy to a PvP Bo5.
his drone micro is to awesome to get 3 raxed with supply call down! sorry bro :D
Tell him not to worry, there aren't any drones or raxes in a PvP ^^
how do we deal with any of the races on 4p maps if you dont scout them in the first 2 instances? ie: 3 locations, you can send one worker to first one and one worker to 2nd one but it delays the speed of the rush, if they are in the 3rd position terran will have already finished the walloff and zerg will be too powerful to kill
I love the rage threads you threw in there... Absolutely hilarious!! xD DO MORE
- BTW you have encouraged this zerg to start my playing with 5 games of 6pool then 5 games 10pool exception is vs T -- And then Macro games the rest - Very encouraging ty ty ty
I'm playing top master and 10 pool speedling into baneling bust is working fine. You definitively cannot hold with hatch 1st, never seen any1 going hatch 1st to ever hold the never ending pressure and when I'm bored i'm doing the 14/14 baneling bust on top master terran and I win everytime, seems the metagame shifted. They don't really expect anything off 1 base . If they scout I put one drone on patrol on my nat like if I was waiting for ressources to expend so they think I'm doing the speedling expend, quite often they will try to delay my fake expansion until 1st two lings comes out and then I just bust them right at 5:30 , if they go reactor helion they are dead, 2rax dead, 1 rax expend dead, cc 1st dead.
On May 29 2012 22:33 Bellazuk wrote: I'm playing top master and 10 pool speedling into baneling bust is working fine. You definitively cannot hold with hatch 1st, never seen any1 going hatch 1st to ever hold the never ending pressure.
If you're going to 10 pool speedling into baneling blindly hoping for hatch first, just 10 pool and make 6 lings and win 5 minutes earlier.
Send a scouting worker after you 10pool and check natural for expansion. If he has expo, send all but 1-2 drones and 6 lings to his base and a-move his workers. then you win the game. It's about the only hard build-order counter in zvz imo.
10 pool drone semi-all-in is 100% win against 15hatch.
better to win in 3 minutes than 8 minutes if you're doing a blind build.
It's the fact that even if he went 14/14 you can kill him , I usually remove drones off gas @ 100 and depending on how he reacts, I decide if I go for a bust or just pure lings, usually with my 1st 6 lings I can kill off 1-2 drones, 1-2 lings, put pressure, make him lose mining time, while I drone and prepare for the bigger attack. My build is basically 10 extractor, 11 pool , 10 extractor, 10 drone, 10 extractor , 10 drone, cancel 1 extractor, 11 overlord, zerglings, drone drone, overlord, queen , meta boost, zergling ++++++
On May 29 2012 17:30 spiritbombgo wrote: how do we deal with any of the races on 4p maps if you dont scout them in the first 2 instances? ie: 3 locations, you can send one worker to first one and one worker to 2nd one but it delays the speed of the rush, if they are in the 3rd position terran will have already finished the walloff and zerg will be too powerful to kill
just scout 1 spot, the other spot will be scouted by the overlord, vs protoss u will meet either the probe or scout crossed instant since hell scout you or the overlord will meet the worker. the only 4p map i had on was antiga.
to the other 2 rush zergs. why waste time to go for a pool on 10, when u can beat both bos with a 7pool allin aswell? :D
I like how a guy gets to GM by 6pooiling in Teh USA, and can't get higher than diamond with that strat in Europe.
Comes to show how many build-order parrots there are in the US who's game sense hardly matches that of a 7 year old, and still get to high leagues there, while in the EU people get high because they actually understand the game and know how to play.
On May 29 2012 23:46 MaxSteel wrote: I like how a guy gets to GM by 6pooiling in Teh USA, and can't get higher than diamond with that strat in Europe.
Comes to show how many build-order parrots there are in the US who's game sense hardly matches that of a 7 year old, and still get to high leagues there, while in the EU people get high because they actually understand the game and know how to play.
On May 29 2012 23:46 MaxSteel wrote: I like how a guy gets to GM by 6pooiling in Teh USA, and can't get higher than diamond with that strat in Europe.
Comes to show how many build-order parrots there are in the US who's game sense hardly matches that of a 7 year old, and still get to high leagues there, while in the EU people get high because they actually understand the game and know how to play.
Was looking at the accoutn in the Youtube vids. Ok, so his other account is mid-high masters (though it was diamond when he just switched, that being S6). I stand my point though, a GM in NA can't get to GM (or even top8 Masters) in EU.
On May 29 2012 23:46 MaxSteel wrote: I like how a guy gets to GM by 6pooiling in Teh USA, and can't get higher than diamond with that strat in Europe.
Comes to show how many build-order parrots there are in the US who's game sense hardly matches that of a 7 year old, and still get to high leagues there, while in the EU people get high because they actually understand the game and know how to play.
On May 29 2012 23:46 MaxSteel wrote: I like how a guy gets to GM by 6pooiling in Teh USA, and can't get higher than diamond with that strat in Europe.
Comes to show how many build-order parrots there are in the US who's game sense hardly matches that of a 7 year old, and still get to high leagues there, while in the EU people get high because they actually understand the game and know how to play.
Was looking at the accoutn in the Youtube vids. Ok, so his other account is mid-high masters (though it was diamond when he just switched, that being S6). I stand my point though, a GM in NA can't get to GM (or even top8 Masters) in EU.
Wow i was thinking of beasty high before reading this topic.. so sad that some succesfull gamers have absolutely no manners.. Shame on 'em.. We cannot expect every pro gamer to be nice as White ra but come on..
Interesting worker vs worker micro tips, I'm definitely going to practice that in my room.
My $0.02 about Beasty and Avilo, they flamed you for sure but you were right with them being crazy BM, IMO receiving BM isn't license to give it back. I feel like I'm missing something reading everyone's replies. I'm with Artosis on this one - can't we all just be nice to each other?
Whenever someones starts BMing you, just type "rus?" in chat and he will go quiet or rage on russia, unless ur russian its hilarious. Very interesting worker control T.T Im happy to only once experienced a worker rush on ladder and only lost once
Yeah. Um. Sorry but i really really can't respect anyone grandmasters or not that gets anywhere but doing mostly 6 pools. I can not genuinely believe that you can go toe to toe with GM players in macro/standard games when you advocate 6 pools and drone rushes every game. To me, your sucess can simply be attributed to metagame, a ladder hero who wins from assuming that his opponents wont wallin and will go for FEs. I would be interested in seeing you do a best of 7 against a masters player and see who wins, especially if he knows your general style.
One way or another, telling or explaining how to get to GM / masters by cheesing and allins is ridiculous, it lessens the meaning and makes ladder a lot less fun and engaging, it turns it LITERALLY into a coin toss of "did he play greedy (tech or economy wise?) and if not you likely lose to a wall in etc.
On July 21 2012 06:22 PersonDudeGuy wrote: Yeah. Um. Sorry but i really really can't respect anyone grandmasters or not that gets anywhere but doing mostly 6 pools. I can not genuinely believe that you can go toe to toe with GM players in macro/standard games when you advocate 6 pools and drone rushes every game. To me, your sucess can simply be attributed to metagame, a ladder hero who wins from assuming that his opponents wont wallin and will go for FEs. I would be interested in seeing you do a best of 7 against a masters player and see who wins, especially if he knows your general style.
One way or another, telling or explaining how to get to GM / masters by cheesing and allins is ridiculous, it lessens the meaning and makes ladder a lot less fun and engaging, it turns it LITERALLY into a coin toss of "did he play greedy (tech or economy wise?) and if not you likely lose to a wall in etc.
^ Why does everyone feel the need to tell the OP (is he even active anymore?) how bad of a person he is?
Seriously, what does your post contribute? The OP has given a well thought out strategy and guide, a lot more than you have contributed. Maybe you should watch the replays, you'd be surprised how good the OP actually is, and I would bet ladder points that you would get stomped by the OP's 6 pools even if you knew he was going to do them.
You may be surprised to learn, but he's not GM by 6 pooling. He's GM by doing a particular strategy better than anyone else, at a GM level. There's a reason no one else hit GM with just 6 pool, even after this guide came out.
He's obviously weak in a long macro game. So are many other players. Does that make DRG a better person than MC? What about Heart?
It doesn't make ladder less fun. Learn to hold the 6/7/8 pool, it's very easy, you should never lose to it, unless the opponent is way, way better than you, in which case he would have beat you with any well executed strategy. There is no coin toss, as long as you play honestly (pool first or drone scout, forge first, etc), you should have no problem beating 6 pools.
On July 21 2012 06:22 PersonDudeGuy wrote: Yeah. Um. Sorry but i really really can't respect anyone grandmasters or not that gets anywhere but doing mostly 6 pools. I can not genuinely believe that you can go toe to toe with GM players in macro/standard games when you advocate 6 pools and drone rushes every game. To me, your sucess can simply be attributed to metagame, a ladder hero who wins from assuming that his opponents wont wallin and will go for FEs. I would be interested in seeing you do a best of 7 against a masters player and see who wins, especially if he knows your general style.
One way or another, telling or explaining how to get to GM / masters by cheesing and allins is ridiculous, it lessens the meaning and makes ladder a lot less fun and engaging, it turns it LITERALLY into a coin toss of "did he play greedy (tech or economy wise?) and if not you likely lose to a wall in etc.
When did this become a thread about respecting the OP?
It's a guide, just like every other guide. It's a valid strategy and there's nothing wrong with it.
In my opinion it's not a valid strategy, my lack of respect for the OP is due to this chosen strategy that I think holds no credibility. Although many (maybe even the majority) see allins and cheeses as completely legitimate I dont; that's not to say that I think they have no value, just that they're much riskier, less indicative of overall skill and a crutch for less skilled players. There is a good reason that nearly (from what I have seen/heard) that most pros denounce cheesing the majority of your games, the term that succinctly describes it is the "skill plateau" where it may get you far past lower leagues but when you hit the plateau your skill set is so ill equiped and your experience so little that you will plummet back down.
I think day9 has stated this before and It's more or less my reasoning for trying to persuade people not to follow this guide no matter how well written.
The hallmark of a good strategy is how strong it can be when your opponent knows your doing it from the beginning. Thus standard, safe, macro games are the strongest in an ideal - high tier scenario. I'm not personally at this level yet but i strive for it, and i dont think that taking a short-cut through easily executed cheeses / allins is the way. I genuinely find it morally reprehensible. Moreover, I can not find any enjoyment out of a cheese, it's a cointoss and like day9 says (once again) cheese and allins are EVEN more scary to use because they're either hit or miss with little actual control - all the pressure is on your opponent and mostly his scouting.
This guide may be comprehensive, well written and well cited; i acknowledge and appreciate that, but the content is -to me (and hopefully you at this point)- you wont develop any mid or lategame practice doing this, you wont develop macro skills from this, you wont develop APM from this, you wont develop game knowledge from this, you wont develop timings from this, and you wont even develop full micro skills from this. That's basically the bottom line. All of these skills must be highly refined once your cheeses stop working, they may get you all the way to GM but I think that you shouldn't be satisfied just with your badge, you should realize the reasons you got there and to me you're: not outhinking your opponent, not outmacroing your opponent, not out multitasking your opponent, not defeating him with a clever and strong timing. The sole effect of what this build seems to achieve is just to exploit unaware and undefended opponents, there is a possibility that your ever-so-slightly superior micro will win you the game but does that mean that you really even deserved it? When you play out a whole game you have more of a chance to win a game by microing actual attacking units in a 1-1 fight as well as testing your macro, APM, timings etc etc and see who has the better skill set overall. You may disregard this as "playing to your strengths" but you wouldnt call taking a making two CCs before a rax "playing to your macro strength" you would call it super greedy borderline "macro-allin/cheese" assuming it wasn't a map like metropolis.
In my opinion it's not a valid strategy, my lack of respect for the OP is due to this chosen strategy that I think holds no credibility. Although many (maybe even the majority) see allins and cheeses as completely legitimate I dont; that's not to say that I think they have no value, just that they're much riskier, less indicative of overall skill and a crutch for less skilled players. There is a good reason that nearly (from what I have seen/heard) that most pros denounce cheesing the majority of your games, the term that succinctly describes it is the "skill plateau" where it may get you far past lower leagues but when you hit the plateau your skill set is so ill equiped and your experience so little that you will plummet back down.
I think day9 has stated this before and It's more or less my reasoning for trying to persuade people not to follow this guide no matter how well written.
The hallmark of a good strategy is how strong it can be when your opponent knows your doing it from the beginning. Thus standard, safe, macro games are the strongest in an ideal - high tier scenario. I'm not personally at this level yet but i strive for it, and i dont think that taking a short-cut through easily executed cheeses / allins is the way. I genuinely find it morally reprehensible. Moreover, I can not find any enjoyment out of a cheese, it's a cointoss and like day9 says (once again) cheese and allins are EVEN more scary to use because they're either hit or miss with little actual control - all the pressure is on your opponent and mostly his scouting.
This guide may be comprehensive, well written and well cited; i acknowledge and appreciate that, but the content is -to me (and hopefully you at this point)- you wont develop any mid or lategame practice doing this, you wont develop macro skills from this, you wont develop APM from this, you wont develop game knowledge from this, you wont develop timings from this, and you wont even develop full micro skills from this. That's basically the bottom line. All of these skills must be highly refined once your cheeses stop working, they may get you all the way to GM but I think that you shouldn't be satisfied just with your badge, you should realize the reasons you got there and to me you're: not outhinking your opponent, not outmacroing your opponent, not out multitasking your opponent, not defeating him with a clever and strong timing. The sole effect of what this build seems to achieve is just to exploit unaware and undefended opponents, there is a possibility that your ever-so-slightly superior micro will win you the game but does that mean that you really even deserved it? When you play out a whole game you have more of a chance to win a game by microing actual attacking units in a 1-1 fight as well as testing your macro, APM, timings etc etc and see who has the better skill set overall. You may disregard this as "playing to your strengths" but you wouldnt call taking a making two CCs before a rax "playing to your macro strength" you would call it super greedy borderline "macro-allin/cheese" assuming it wasn't a map like metropolis.
So noone should ever cheese ever because they're not valid builds and don't make you a better player?
In my opinion it's not a valid strategy, my lack of respect for the OP is due to this chosen strategy that I think holds no credibility. Although many (maybe even the majority) see allins and cheeses as completely legitimate I dont; that's not to say that I think they have no value, just that they're much riskier, less indicative of overall skill and a crutch for less skilled players. There is a good reason that nearly (from what I have seen/heard) that most pros denounce cheesing the majority of your games, the term that succinctly describes it is the "skill plateau" where it may get you far past lower leagues but when you hit the plateau your skill set is so ill equiped and your experience so little that you will plummet back down.
I think day9 has stated this before and It's more or less my reasoning for trying to persuade people not to follow this guide no matter how well written.
The hallmark of a good strategy is how strong it can be when your opponent knows your doing it from the beginning. Thus standard, safe, macro games are the strongest in an ideal - high tier scenario. I'm not personally at this level yet but i strive for it, and i dont think that taking a short-cut through easily executed cheeses / allins is the way. I genuinely find it morally reprehensible. Moreover, I can not find any enjoyment out of a cheese, it's a cointoss and like day9 says (once again) cheese and allins are EVEN more scary to use because they're either hit or miss with little actual control - all the pressure is on your opponent and mostly his scouting.
This guide may be comprehensive, well written and well cited; i acknowledge and appreciate that, but the content is -to me (and hopefully you at this point)- you wont develop any mid or lategame practice doing this, you wont develop macro skills from this, you wont develop APM from this, you wont develop game knowledge from this, you wont develop timings from this, and you wont even develop full micro skills from this. That's basically the bottom line. All of these skills must be highly refined once your cheeses stop working, they may get you all the way to GM but I think that you shouldn't be satisfied just with your badge, you should realize the reasons you got there and to me you're: not outhinking your opponent, not outmacroing your opponent, not out multitasking your opponent, not defeating him with a clever and strong timing. The sole effect of what this build seems to achieve is just to exploit unaware and undefended opponents, there is a possibility that your ever-so-slightly superior micro will win you the game but does that mean that you really even deserved it? When you play out a whole game you have more of a chance to win a game by microing actual attacking units in a 1-1 fight as well as testing your macro, APM, timings etc etc and see who has the better skill set overall. You may disregard this as "playing to your strengths" but you wouldnt call taking a making two CCs before a rax "playing to your macro strength" you would call it super greedy borderline "macro-allin/cheese" assuming it wasn't a map like metropolis.
I agree, i totally rage out on ladder about it too and it's sad when pros lose to it, but it forces the game to be honest (ie make a baneling nest at 26 in zvz or possibly die stupidly, which happens a lot in pro play because everyone tries to get an unfair advantage). I kind of agree with 6/7/8 pool is not a valid strategy either in ZvZ, as my guide proves, it's a build order loss to everything, but the only people who lose to 6 pool, are people who just are too low level to know how to beat it (you and I, perhaps), or some super amazing metagame build that has not yet been seen.
You don't get to GM just by doing any old 4 gate or cheese. I don't think you appreciate the skill gap between GM and, say, diamond or masters. The skill gap between GM and Masters, in MMR, is literally the same as Diamond and Silver (1200 MMR), and the skill gap between Masters and Diamond is Gold to Diamond.
You clearly do not recognize the extent of the OP's skill here - he's literally as skilled at doing this build as, i dont know, someone like Machine (higher than painuser, lower than catz though), and is just as practiced in it, and that far above everyone else. You clearly think he's just doing some build order - he's not, he's giving out his build order, but this guy actually has a lot of skill. All the intricacies you think you understand about the game, timings, macro, APM, this guy has when it comes to his build.
Seriously, no one else can even get high masters using this build. The OP is actually a very skilled player when it comes to 6 pooling. This guy actually uses skill to beat his opponents, he outmicro's them, he outthinks them. Even 6 pools on ladder, I have never seen anyone below HIGH masters or GM execute it half decently, and Diamonds cannot do the build at all. They execute a build order, but they do not have the micro or on-the-fly decision making to really shine, but they beat people who don't know how to play just as much.
In my opinion it's not a valid strategy, my lack of respect for the OP is due to this chosen strategy that I think holds no credibility. Although many (maybe even the majority) see allins and cheeses as completely legitimate I dont; that's not to say that I think they have no value, just that they're much riskier, less indicative of overall skill and a crutch for less skilled players. There is a good reason that nearly (from what I have seen/heard) that most pros denounce cheesing the majority of your games, the term that succinctly describes it is the "skill plateau" where it may get you far past lower leagues but when you hit the plateau your skill set is so ill equiped and your experience so little that you will plummet back down.
I think day9 has stated this before and It's more or less my reasoning for trying to persuade people not to follow this guide no matter how well written.
The hallmark of a good strategy is how strong it can be when your opponent knows your doing it from the beginning. Thus standard, safe, macro games are the strongest in an ideal - high tier scenario. I'm not personally at this level yet but i strive for it, and i dont think that taking a short-cut through easily executed cheeses / allins is the way. I genuinely find it morally reprehensible. Moreover, I can not find any enjoyment out of a cheese, it's a cointoss and like day9 says (once again) cheese and allins are EVEN more scary to use because they're either hit or miss with little actual control - all the pressure is on your opponent and mostly his scouting.
This guide may be comprehensive, well written and well cited; i acknowledge and appreciate that, but the content is -to me (and hopefully you at this point)- you wont develop any mid or lategame practice doing this, you wont develop macro skills from this, you wont develop APM from this, you wont develop game knowledge from this, you wont develop timings from this, and you wont even develop full micro skills from this. That's basically the bottom line. All of these skills must be highly refined once your cheeses stop working, they may get you all the way to GM but I think that you shouldn't be satisfied just with your badge, you should realize the reasons you got there and to me you're: not outhinking your opponent, not outmacroing your opponent, not out multitasking your opponent, not defeating him with a clever and strong timing. The sole effect of what this build seems to achieve is just to exploit unaware and undefended opponents, there is a possibility that your ever-so-slightly superior micro will win you the game but does that mean that you really even deserved it? When you play out a whole game you have more of a chance to win a game by microing actual attacking units in a 1-1 fight as well as testing your macro, APM, timings etc etc and see who has the better skill set overall. You may disregard this as "playing to your strengths" but you wouldnt call taking a making two CCs before a rax "playing to your macro strength" you would call it super greedy borderline "macro-allin/cheese" assuming it wasn't a map like metropolis.
you are not giving credit to this guy, he is the only 6 pooler in the WORLD thats gotten grandmaster with it, that means hes doing something thousands of others cant do to even get silver / gold. I have a friend that cant get silver with 6 pooling only and i can get like gold with it (im master zerg), this guy got EFFIN grandmaster with it, if that doesnt take SKILL i dont know what does, getting grandmaster with this build makes him insanely SKILLED for being the only one who managed to do it.
In my opinion it's not a valid strategy, my lack of respect for the OP is due to this chosen strategy that I think holds no credibility. Although many (maybe even the majority) see allins and cheeses as completely legitimate I dont; that's not to say that I think they have no value, just that they're much riskier, less indicative of overall skill and a crutch for less skilled players. There is a good reason that nearly (from what I have seen/heard) that most pros denounce cheesing the majority of your games, the term that succinctly describes it is the "skill plateau" where it may get you far past lower leagues but when you hit the plateau your skill set is so ill equiped and your experience so little that you will plummet back down.
I think day9 has stated this before and It's more or less my reasoning for trying to persuade people not to follow this guide no matter how well written.
The hallmark of a good strategy is how strong it can be when your opponent knows your doing it from the beginning. Thus standard, safe, macro games are the strongest in an ideal - high tier scenario. I'm not personally at this level yet but i strive for it, and i dont think that taking a short-cut through easily executed cheeses / allins is the way. I genuinely find it morally reprehensible. Moreover, I can not find any enjoyment out of a cheese, it's a cointoss and like day9 says (once again) cheese and allins are EVEN more scary to use because they're either hit or miss with little actual control - all the pressure is on your opponent and mostly his scouting.
This guide may be comprehensive, well written and well cited; i acknowledge and appreciate that, but the content is -to me (and hopefully you at this point)- you wont develop any mid or lategame practice doing this, you wont develop macro skills from this, you wont develop APM from this, you wont develop game knowledge from this, you wont develop timings from this, and you wont even develop full micro skills from this. That's basically the bottom line. All of these skills must be highly refined once your cheeses stop working, they may get you all the way to GM but I think that you shouldn't be satisfied just with your badge, you should realize the reasons you got there and to me you're: not outhinking your opponent, not outmacroing your opponent, not out multitasking your opponent, not defeating him with a clever and strong timing. The sole effect of what this build seems to achieve is just to exploit unaware and undefended opponents, there is a possibility that your ever-so-slightly superior micro will win you the game but does that mean that you really even deserved it? When you play out a whole game you have more of a chance to win a game by microing actual attacking units in a 1-1 fight as well as testing your macro, APM, timings etc etc and see who has the better skill set overall. You may disregard this as "playing to your strengths" but you wouldnt call taking a making two CCs before a rax "playing to your macro strength" you would call it super greedy borderline "macro-allin/cheese" assuming it wasn't a map like metropolis.
Did you even read the OP? He comes across the same players on ladder over and over, which tends to happen on GM ladder. They know who he is and that he is going to 6/7pool or drone rush and he wins anyway-enough to stay in GM It's morally reprehensible to allin and cheese? No, there isn't a build order in a video game that is morally reprehensible.
And look how old the OP actually is- the metagame is not the exact same it was before. The only reprehensible thing here is you dismissing someone for doing a build order because you can't see past your own "NR 15 PLZ" mindset.
Really weird discuassion. Let me get this straight - a lot of people are bitching that the guy doing 6 pool and getting in GM is an asshole and a horrible sc2 player? I don't share that opinion. I don't even know the person to say if he is an asshole. I agree that 6 pool is probably somehing that needs less time to perfect than hour macro games but cheesus christ - this guy is genius for becoming GM with 6 pool. Everyone saying different don't really get startcraft in my opinion. I think that cheese and all-ins are the best refinment for this game. Also, since all-ins are soo fucking strong, every progamer should do them good percentage of their games. Cheese is more risky, if its scouted you are probably fucked thats why i stoped bitching long time ago when someone all ins or cheeses me - i really started to see and admire beauty in its strength as an element of sc2 play. Its like a fucking slap on the face! Haha, you gotta love that. Everyone is like crying, macro game this, macro game that, you're right! - nobody can say that cheeser is better than a legit macro player but get your facts straight - a good cheese or all in is good for the game. In my opinion MC is maybe the best player in the world because of his ability to macro and to all in or cheese. He understands the power of both, like every decent sc2 pro should. Since i am not a pro and i have no ambition is sc2 competition, i play it just for fun, i can see the good things about cheese and all-ins, maybe all of you more serious about sc2 don't like it since "lesser" player can beat better one, i can understand that. My point in general is that cheese and all-ins are legit and probably most exciting spectator element of sc2. Bitching about it soooooooooooooooooooo fucking lame, no matter how good and godlike sc2 player you are. I am master player myself, i experienced enough cheese and macro play to build up opinion i just presented. IMO the build and tips in the guide are fairly simple but this guy's skill is admirable and much more than this guide he wrote. He become a GM by 6 fucking pool, hahaha, i don't see how is that wrong.
On July 21 2012 19:16 Mesha wrote: Really weird discuassion. Let me get this straight - a lot of people are bitching that the guy doing 6 pool and getting in GM is an asshole and a horrible sc2 player? I don't share that opinion. I don't even know the person to say if he is an asshole. I agree that 6 pool is probably somehing that needs less time to perfect than hour macro games but cheesus christ - this guy is genius for becoming GM with 6 pool. Everyone saying different don't really get startcraft in my opinion. I think that cheese and all-ins are the best refinment for this game. Also, since all-ins are soo fucking strong, every progamer should do them good percentage of their games. Cheese is more risky, if its scouted you are probably fucked thats why i stoped bitching long time ago when someone all ins or cheeses me - i really started to see and admire beauty in its strength as an element of sc2 play. Its like a fucking slap on the face! Haha, you gotta love that. Everyone is like crying, macro game this, macro game that, you're right! - nobody can say that cheeser is better than a legit macro player but get your facts straight - a good cheese or all in is good for the game. In my opinion MC is maybe the best player in the world because of his ability to macro and to all in or cheese. He understands the power of both, like every decent sc2 pro should. Since i am not a pro and i have no ambition is sc2 competition, i play it just for fun, i can see the good things about cheese and all-ins, maybe all of you more serious about sc2 don't like it since "lesser" player can beat better one, i can understand that. My point in general is that cheese and all-ins are legit and probably most exciting spectator element of sc2. Bitching about it soooooooooooooooooooo fucking lame, no matter how good and godlike sc2 player you are. I am master player myself, i experienced enough cheese and macro play to build up opinion i just presented. IMO the build and tips in the guide are fairly simple but this guy's skill is admirable and much more than this guide he wrote. He become a GM by 6 fucking pool, hahaha, i don't see how is that wrong.
For all the bitching ones, more gg more skill.
Sadly that's just not true in sc2 right now. Cheese will NOT get stopped if scouted most of the times, because most people on the ladder just don't know the right answer and so they will lose although they know what's coming.
Using a build that you do not know how to hold cheeses with is as bad as cheesing IMO. I really don't like the trend that has been around forever in the highest level, and all the other levels too lol, of ZvZ to hatch first. Doing an opening build that has very clear and common counters every game seems stupid to me. All these <10 pool builds. Cheese is IMO very important to keep the metagame from going absolutely crazy. Everything you do should be able to hold cheeses if you do it as your standard build.
On July 23 2012 20:34 MaxViktory wrote: Using a build that you do not know how to hold cheeses with is as bad as cheesing IMO. I really don't like the trend that has been around forever in the highest level, and all the other levels too lol, of ZvZ to hatch first. Doing an opening build that has very clear and common counters every game seems stupid to me. All these <10 pool builds. Cheese is IMO very important to keep the metagame from going absolutely crazy. Everything you do should be able to hold cheeses if you do it as your standard build.
This , and might i add, When u play starcraft, be it casual or pro. The thing u need to keep in mind , you PLAY TO WIN. people who bash on cheese builds have their priorities messed up. Exactly like MaxViktory pointed out , if i play against an opponent that i KNOW isnt cheesing , i can go like CC first into gas like every game - There needs to be builds that set the upper and lower bondaries for what is possible/viable. even though executing a cheese is easy , and holding said cheese might probe difficult , thats only a testimant to what skill really is .
On July 23 2012 20:34 MaxViktory wrote: Using a build that you do not know how to hold cheeses with is as bad as cheesing IMO. I really don't like the trend that has been around forever in the highest level, and all the other levels too lol, of ZvZ to hatch first. Doing an opening build that has very clear and common counters every game seems stupid to me. All these <10 pool builds. Cheese is IMO very important to keep the metagame from going absolutely crazy. Everything you do should be able to hold cheeses if you do it as your standard build.
No. No no no no. No no. No. You can hold early pools with 15hatch if you play well. For more info look for Belial88's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586. I also like that you put "<10 pool" when the nearest thing to a blind 15 hatch hard counter is Nestea's 10 pool with 8 drones pulled. And even that might be holdable with a blind 15hatch (see the Stoic guide to ZvX thread and videos).
There are builds that have a good chance of killing a blind hatch first player if they mess up, but I would say there is probably ZvZ build that currently autowins against hatch first and definitely no build that autowins against hatch first with drone scout.
yeah, thats why it is so impressive. its up to the defender to react well and if he doesnt mess up the defender will win. still getting into grandmaster with this strats is suprising
In my opinion it's not a valid strategy, my lack of respect for the OP is due to this chosen strategy that I think holds no credibility. Although many (maybe even the majority) see allins and cheeses as completely legitimate I dont; that's not to say that I think they have no value, just that they're much riskier, less indicative of overall skill and a crutch for less skilled players. There is a good reason that nearly (from what I have seen/heard) that most pros denounce cheesing the majority of your games, the term that succinctly describes it is the "skill plateau" where it may get you far past lower leagues but when you hit the plateau your skill set is so ill equiped and your experience so little that you will plummet back down.
I think day9 has stated this before and It's more or less my reasoning for trying to persuade people not to follow this guide no matter how well written.
The hallmark of a good strategy is how strong it can be when your opponent knows your doing it from the beginning. Thus standard, safe, macro games are the strongest in an ideal - high tier scenario. I'm not personally at this level yet but i strive for it, and i dont think that taking a short-cut through easily executed cheeses / allins is the way. I genuinely find it morally reprehensible. Moreover, I can not find any enjoyment out of a cheese, it's a cointoss and like day9 says (once again) cheese and allins are EVEN more scary to use because they're either hit or miss with little actual control - all the pressure is on your opponent and mostly his scouting.
This guide may be comprehensive, well written and well cited; i acknowledge and appreciate that, but the content is -to me (and hopefully you at this point)- you wont develop any mid or lategame practice doing this, you wont develop macro skills from this, you wont develop APM from this, you wont develop game knowledge from this, you wont develop timings from this, and you wont even develop full micro skills from this. That's basically the bottom line. All of these skills must be highly refined once your cheeses stop working, they may get you all the way to GM but I think that you shouldn't be satisfied just with your badge, you should realize the reasons you got there and to me you're: not outhinking your opponent, not outmacroing your opponent, not out multitasking your opponent, not defeating him with a clever and strong timing. The sole effect of what this build seems to achieve is just to exploit unaware and undefended opponents, there is a possibility that your ever-so-slightly superior micro will win you the game but does that mean that you really even deserved it? When you play out a whole game you have more of a chance to win a game by microing actual attacking units in a 1-1 fight as well as testing your macro, APM, timings etc etc and see who has the better skill set overall. You may disregard this as "playing to your strengths" but you wouldnt call taking a making two CCs before a rax "playing to your macro strength" you would call it super greedy borderline "macro-allin/cheese" assuming it wasn't a map like metropolis.
Did you even read the OP? He comes across the same players on ladder over and over, which tends to happen on GM ladder. They know who he is and that he is going to 6/7pool or drone rush and he wins anyway-enough to stay in GM It's morally reprehensible to allin and cheese? No, there isn't a build order in a video game that is morally reprehensible.
And look how old the OP actually is- the metagame is not the exact same it was before. The only reprehensible thing here is you dismissing someone for doing a build order because you can't see past your own "NR 15 PLZ" mindset.
Persondudeguy views certain plays in Sc2 as being immoral or bad or whatever, but honestly even though cheese is annoying, it's part of the game, and early allins are the reason you don't go like 14 CC 17 CC 19 rax. They're part of the rich and varied metagame of Sc2, and to get into GM by 6 pooling has only been done by one guy-- it's enormously difficult.
The fact of the matter is, Sc2 is not a game where you drink tea with your opponent and only play in a certain way and observe special rules of etiquette and certain plays are frowned upon and oh my! I'm so flustered, a 6 pool! How inappropriate! How crass!
Sc2 is a game of war. You play to win. That's what this guy did, and he wrote a damned good guide. PDG can say what he wants, but it won't make him any less wrong.
seems like my half years ban is over i stopped playing like 2 months ago when i was like the highest master in eu only facing gms and beeing favorite. waiting for hots beta just to harass ppl so they cant ever get new units since they will have to face my 6pool!
i have to mention this strats are possible to execute and yet the best early game allins, at least in my eyes. same as my eco 7pool still is the best of his kind. when im watching some top zergs go for their "bad" ecopools it just hurts and i feel they are beeing ignorant^^
Once upon a time someone designed a war game. The objective was to win. And then one guy went out of his way to apply his particular talent to perfecting the simplest of strategies and carrying them to levels of adoration and respect. And the people hated him so. Because his act of rape, was illegitimate.
On August 28 2012 21:13 Bad_Habit wrote: seems like my half years ban is over i stopped playing like 2 months ago when i was like the highest master in eu only facing gms and beeing favorite. waiting for hots beta just to harass ppl so they cant ever get new units since they will have to face my 6pool!
i have to mention this strats are possible to execute and yet the best early game allins, at least in my eyes. same as my eco 7pool still is the best of his kind. when im watching some top zergs go for their "bad" ecopools it just hurts and i feel they are beeing ignorant^^
Everyone has their speciality, you're a god at early pooling, but if these top zergs would see your standard play, it would probably hurt them too ;D
On July 23 2012 20:34 MaxViktory wrote: Using a build that you do not know how to hold cheeses with is as bad as cheesing IMO. I really don't like the trend that has been around forever in the highest level, and all the other levels too lol, of ZvZ to hatch first. Doing an opening build that has very clear and common counters every game seems stupid to me. All these <10 pool builds. Cheese is IMO very important to keep the metagame from going absolutely crazy. Everything you do should be able to hold cheeses if you do it as your standard build.
No. No no no no. No no. No. You can hold early pools with 15hatch if you play well. For more info look for Belial88's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586. I also like that you put "<10 pool" when the nearest thing to a blind 15 hatch hard counter is Nestea's 10 pool with 8 drones pulled. And even that might be holdable with a blind 15hatch (see the Stoic guide to ZvX thread and videos).
There are builds that have a good chance of killing a blind hatch first player if they mess up, but I would say there is probably ZvZ build that currently autowins against hatch first and definitely no build that autowins against hatch first with drone scout.
the problem is that most ppl who copy / execute these builds have no idea how to hold most allins. therefore, they are being greedy, although its possible to hold everything with the build they use. its not as bad as 6pooling every game though, cause u learn more from being greedy than from cheesing^^
It's so retarded that people complain about "cheese". I don't even know why the concept is there, but in strategy game you do whatever it takes to win. If there is an issue with balance with said cheese, it gets fixed. Four Pool/Six Pool have existed since the dawn of Starcraft, and the only "nerf" to it as far as I remember was the adjustment of Spawning Pool from 150 to 200 minerals.
Doing something like "15 CC/Hatchery/Nexus" is just "as cheesy" as the "cheese" people talk about because you are taking advantage of the maps getting bigger, well fortified natural expansions, etc. So people cut a bunch of corners all the time when they shouldn't be able to (when we see nothing but workers from both parties for the first 7 minutes? yeah). I agree that games are more interesting when you can actually access your tier 2 and 3 units in a macro game, and I almost never "cheese" in solo leagues, but these kind of very early all-in aggressions (Proxy Gate/Cannon, Early Pool, SCV/Marine all in) are just as legitimate as the long macro games.
I love how some people go as far as marking such plays as "immoral".
On August 28 2012 23:09 david0925 wrote: It's so retarded that people complain about "cheese". I don't even know why the concept is there, but in strategy game you do whatever it takes to win. If there is an issue with balance with said cheese, it gets fixed. Four Pool/Six Pool have existed since the dawn of Starcraft, and the only "nerf" to it as far as I remember was the adjustment of Spawning Pool from 150 to 200 minerals.
Take a look at the map changes.
Aside from that, I agree, mostly because I like situations where I can just micro Probes around to kill lings.
On August 28 2012 23:09 david0925 wrote: It's so retarded that people complain about "cheese". I don't even know why the concept is there, but in strategy game you do whatever it takes to win. If there is an issue with balance with said cheese, it gets fixed. Four Pool/Six Pool have existed since the dawn of Starcraft, and the only "nerf" to it as far as I remember was the adjustment of Spawning Pool from 150 to 200 minerals.
Doing something like "15 CC/Hatchery/Nexus" is just "as cheesy" as the "cheese" people talk about because you are taking advantage of the maps getting bigger, well fortified natural expansions, etc. So people cut a bunch of corners all the time when they shouldn't be able to (when we see nothing but workers from both parties for the first 7 minutes? yeah). I agree that games are more interesting when you can actually access your tier 2 and 3 units in a macro game, and I almost never "cheese" in solo leagues, but these kind of very early all-in aggressions (Proxy Gate/Cannon, Early Pool, SCV/Marine all in) are just as legitimate as the long macro games.
I love how some people go as far as marking such plays as "immoral".
who? and this opinion has been posted a million times already in this thread. I think people know the different sides of the issue now.
I will admit months ago when i played heavily i looked down on this OP, but now that i look at it from another perspective i have to say it is quite a valid strategy. Cheese is inevitable in SC this just shows how vulnerable people are to cheese, if your build can not defend against cheese its either to risky or just poor in general.
Most people seem to just continue berating op telling him he has no skill/macro well obviously, his games last what 5-9 mins?
On August 28 2012 21:13 Bad_Habit wrote: seems like my half years ban is over i stopped playing like 2 months ago when i was like the highest master in eu only facing gms and beeing favorite. waiting for hots beta just to harass ppl so they cant ever get new units since they will have to face my 6pool!
i have to mention this strats are possible to execute and yet the best early game allins, at least in my eyes. same as my eco 7pool still is the best of his kind. when im watching some top zergs go for their "bad" ecopools it just hurts and i feel they are beeing ignorant^^
Wait, why did you get banned for half a year? Was it a TL ban or Bnet ban?
there are no two sides of the issue. that would imply both sides have legitimacy. ppl who whine about cheese are scrubs.
Isn't that view just as 'illegitimate' as you just called out?
Cheese can be frustrating to deal with. Doesn't make you a scrub when it's obnoxious to play against. I'm pretty sure everyone feels that way. I don't think anyone is saying it shouldn't be a part of the game, but there is a certain point where it's bad (1 base play only in pvp for example, the coinflip of zvz openers).
Wait, why did you get banned for half a year? Was it a TL ban or Bnet ban?
TL ban, you can look at his post history (profile->posts) and browse through his recent posts to see if it got him banned. You can also search the automated ban thread.
On August 28 2012 21:13 Bad_Habit wrote: seems like my half years ban is over i stopped playing like 2 months ago when i was like the highest master in eu only facing gms and beeing favorite. waiting for hots beta just to harass ppl so they cant ever get new units since they will have to face my 6pool!
i have to mention this strats are possible to execute and yet the best early game allins, at least in my eyes. same as my eco 7pool still is the best of his kind. when im watching some top zergs go for their "bad" ecopools it just hurts and i feel they are beeing ignorant^^
Wait, why did you get banned for half a year? Was it a TL ban or Bnet ban?
didnt get banned for 6pooling yet. only forgot the "s" of "she" and sadly i was talking about a transvistite QQ
No, it doesn't work on any map pool in ZvZ. This build doesn't work on even Steppes of War.
But it works really well against opponents who don't know how to respond.
Check out my anti-6 pool guide here on how to beat this build on any map, including on Steppes of War and Daybreak, to all other types of 6/7/8 Pool, and laugh and take free wins against anyone dumb enough to 6/7/8 pool.
This is a new guide on how to beat all types of 6/7/8 Pools with Hatch First, as well as a few types of 10 Pools. The other guide was way too long, and too wordy. This is an update
7 Pool, Drone 6xLings Send All but 2 Drones when Lings nearly finish @140 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick 4xLings, send last 2 drones
Continue to Drone up, and make an overlord. Cancel Nat. Send out a drone to put a spine in his base, then base trade when he arrives.
This is because you want to plant a spine in his base as your last building, as spines can walk off creep without losing health, and if you screw up, you can force a stalemate by not killing his hatch. An extractor works, but a spine makes things much easier.
When he arrives at your base, run to his base via mineral walking (If you defensively drone stack, then right click another mineral patch, then right click a mineral patch in his base or at another base before they arrive to the currently destined patch, they will stay stuck as 'one drone'.
Rally lings, careful not to lose them.
If you get out with 4+ Lings, you will win a straight up fight easily. If you get out with 2+ Lings, you will need to micro If you get out with less than 2 lings, you will lose without superior micro. Force a stalemate, or bumrush his last building, his spine, if he lets your drones get between him and his spine (15 drones will kill a walking spine quicker than 10 lings+6 Drones can kill the 15 drones)
Getting enough Lings out:
Focusing his spine down because you didn't get any lings out:
A 6/7/8 Pool with Lings rallied and may or may not have a Spine.
If he doesn't make a spine, make 2 spines in your mineral line, and defensively mineral walk to protect it, as you will win any battle inside the mineral line with a full surround. But most people make spines, so:
Continue droning up, make an overlord, Cancel Nat. Pull 4 Drones to focus 1 spine at a time, and be extremely aggressive in the open, you will easily win.
If someone does a 6 Pool with Spine, attack. Do not be afraid to be extremely aggressive - the opponent will not have enough lings or units to beat your army. Aggressively attack toward him, and then pull 4+ drones to attack the spine. If he makes 2 spines, be even more aggressive, as no ling reinforcements will be on the way, and you can definitely win the battle. The key here is really, really, really being super aggressive with your drones in this fight.
Micro is also important. Use hold position on hurt drones, and if you just have a few drones attacking and able to be attacked (like going through a choke), box over them and mineral walk them to retreat them to the back of the line. Never engage in a choke.
As you can see in this replay, I'm extremely aggressive against the 6 Pool Double Spine, and just absolutely crush his army, taking any chance he backs off, to kill his spines. Don't pull 4+4 drones per spine, only pull 4 drones at a time to focus a single spine at a time, and then with the rest of the drones, attack (if you pull 8 of your drones away, you won't win a fight). Simply work one spine down, then the other, and if he runs away, pull the fighting fleet of drones to attack the other spine.
The reason you can't, say, just put X+1 spines in your mineral line and defensively drone stack and pool lings and wait until the spines pop, so you can re-root and engage, is because a 6 pool + Spines can actually focus your hatch down before your spines finish, and that just sucks.
PS: If anyone is dumb enough to just attack your drones, defensively drone stack (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) and kill all his units. Sometimes you'll run into stupid people who will just a-move into your drones, and you defensively drone stack and they'll lose everything to it, even when they have a spine on the way (at which point you can just overwhelm that spine quite easily).
CheckPrime first showcased this as an anti-hatch first build, and after Nestea's 10 pool, this has since fallen out of favor. Still deadly, but beatable.
- 10 Pool - 10 Gas - Overlord, Extractor trick - Constant Lings, Morph Banelings at opponent's base
To beat this: - Morph 3 Spines in Mineral Line, a little bit spread out so baneling splash doesn't wipe all of them out easily (he shouldn't go for them, but if he does) - 2xQueens - Spread your drones very well
You actually need to micro pretty well to beat this, as in spread your drones like a boss (you should see him morphing banes and start working on splitting right away). It's okay if you lose half your drones, with 2 queens, 2+ spines, and a hatch, you should be immune to further aggression.
10 Gas, Drone 10 Pool, Overlord Speed, Pull from Gas Queen, Lings
Make a spine in Nat and Main. 2 Queens Mass Lings when you see he's clearly 10 Pooling (Pull drones if necessary) Block the ramp
So how can you tell it's a 10 Pool that's pooling speedlings, and not, say a 14/14 all-in? Send that overlord you sent to his nat, to check into his main real quick. If a Queen is there, it's a 10 Pool. Or, if you see Lings flowing across the map ~3:00 (a 10 pool finishes around 2:50) without drones backing them up, and he isn't morphing banelings in your base.
It's pretty easy to beat this. Now that you know it's a 10 pool speedling, you'll want to make a spine in both your main and nat (if he sends his initial lings immediately over, this is important, as well as when the speedling mass comes). Pool lings at your ramp, where him having speed won't mean anything, and hold position with your queens there, and eventually bring the spine from your nat, to your natural, when you see you can clearly hold the ramp.
Just defensively drone stack while getting Queens, Lings
If he only sends lings, do not run around in circles around your hatchery like Lalush did vs Curious. Instead, defensively drone stack in a recessed mineral patch (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) until your Lings, Queens pop. Pretty straightforward. Don't cancel your natural, just pull your drones and queens to save it if he goes for it. This type of 10 pool is pretty silly.
10 Pool with 8 of 12 Drones Pulled and 1-2 Spines + Show Spoiler +
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main. However, never fear, there's a way to beat it.
- 10 Pool @125 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick, Drone scout for Hatch First - 8+ Lings - Send 8 of 12 drones when Lings are about to pop - Make 1 Spine at each base of opponent or 2 Spines
This is a new guide on how to beat all types of 6/7/8 Pools with Hatch First, as well as a few types of 10 Pools. The other guide was way too long, and too wordy. This is an update
7 Pool, Drone 6xLings Send All but 2 Drones when Lings nearly finish @140 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick 4xLings, send last 2 drones
Continue to Drone up, and make an overlord. Cancel Nat. Send out a drone to put a spine in his base, then base trade when he arrives.
This is because you want to plant a spine in his base as your last building, as spines can walk off creep without losing health, and if you screw up, you can force a stalemate by not killing his hatch. An extractor works, but a spine makes things much easier.
When he arrives at your base, run to his base via mineral walking (If you defensively drone stack, then right click another mineral patch, then right click a mineral patch in his base or at another base before they arrive to the currently destined patch, they will stay stuck as 'one drone'.
Rally lings, careful not to lose them.
If you get out with 4+ Lings, you will win a straight up fight easily. If you get out with 2+ Lings, you will need to micro If you get out with less than 2 lings, you will lose without superior micro. Force a stalemate, or bumrush his last building, his spine, if he lets your drones get between him and his spine (15 drones will kill a walking spine quicker than 10 lings+6 Drones can kill the 15 drones)
Getting enough Lings out:
Focusing his spine down because you didn't get any lings out:
A 6/7/8 Pool with Lings rallied and may or may not have a Spine.
If he doesn't make a spine, make 2 spines in your mineral line, and defensively mineral walk to protect it, as you will win any battle inside the mineral line with a full surround. But most people make spines, so:
Continue droning up, make an overlord, Cancel Nat. Pull 4 Drones to focus 1 spine at a time, and be extremely aggressive in the open, you will easily win.
If someone does a 6 Pool with Spine, attack. Do not be afraid to be extremely aggressive - the opponent will not have enough lings or units to beat your army. Aggressively attack toward him, and then pull 4+ drones to attack the spine. If he makes 2 spines, be even more aggressive, as no ling reinforcements will be on the way, and you can definitely win the battle. The key here is really, really, really being super aggressive with your drones in this fight.
Micro is also important. Use hold position on hurt drones, and if you just have a few drones attacking and able to be attacked (like going through a choke), box over them and mineral walk them to retreat them to the back of the line. Never engage in a choke.
As you can see in this replay, I'm extremely aggressive against the 6 Pool Double Spine, and just absolutely crush his army, taking any chance he backs off, to kill his spines. Don't pull 4+4 drones per spine, only pull 4 drones at a time to focus a single spine at a time, and then with the rest of the drones, attack (if you pull 8 of your drones away, you won't win a fight). Simply work one spine down, then the other, and if he runs away, pull the fighting fleet of drones to attack the other spine.
The reason you can't, say, just put X+1 spines in your mineral line and defensively drone stack and pool lings and wait until the spines pop, so you can re-root and engage, is because a 6 pool + Spines can actually focus your hatch down before your spines finish, and that just sucks.
PS: If anyone is dumb enough to just attack your drones, defensively drone stack (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) and kill all his units. Sometimes you'll run into stupid people who will just a-move into your drones, and you defensively drone stack and they'll lose everything to it, even when they have a spine on the way (at which point you can just overwhelm that spine quite easily).
CheckPrime first showcased this as an anti-hatch first build, and after Nestea's 10 pool, this has since fallen out of favor. Still deadly, but beatable.
- 10 Pool - 10 Gas - Overlord, Extractor trick - Constant Lings, Morph Banelings at opponent's base
To beat this: - Morph 3 Spines in Mineral Line, a little bit spread out so baneling splash doesn't wipe all of them out easily (he shouldn't go for them, but if he does) - 2xQueens - Spread your drones very well
You actually need to micro pretty well to beat this, as in spread your drones like a boss (you should see him morphing banes and start working on splitting right away). It's okay if you lose half your drones, with 2 queens, 2+ spines, and a hatch, you should be immune to further aggression.
10 Gas, Drone 10 Pool, Overlord Speed, Pull from Gas Queen, Lings
Make a spine in Nat and Main. 2 Queens Mass Lings when you see he's clearly 10 Pooling (Pull drones if necessary) Block the ramp
So how can you tell it's a 10 Pool that's pooling speedlings, and not, say a 14/14 all-in? Send that overlord you sent to his nat, to check into his main real quick. If a Queen is there, it's a 10 Pool. Or, if you see Lings flowing across the map ~3:00 (a 10 pool finishes around 2:50) without drones backing them up, and he isn't morphing banelings in your base.
It's pretty easy to beat this. Now that you know it's a 10 pool speedling, you'll want to make a spine in both your main and nat (if he sends his initial lings immediately over, this is important, as well as when the speedling mass comes). Pool lings at your ramp, where him having speed won't mean anything, and hold position with your queens there, and eventually bring the spine from your nat, to your natural, when you see you can clearly hold the ramp.
Just defensively drone stack while getting Queens, Lings
If he only sends lings, do not run around in circles around your hatchery like Lalush did vs Curious. Instead, defensively drone stack in a recessed mineral patch (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) until your Lings, Queens pop. Pretty straightforward. Don't cancel your natural, just pull your drones and queens to save it if he goes for it. This type of 10 pool is pretty silly.
10 Pool with 8 of 12 Drones Pulled and 1-2 Spines + Show Spoiler +
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main. However, never fear, there's a way to beat it.
- 10 Pool @125 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick, Drone scout for Hatch First - 8+ Lings - Send 8 of 12 drones when Lings are about to pop - Make 1 Spine at each base of opponent or 2 Spines
The only part that's unfair about early pools is the fact that Terran and Toss both had their early game cheeses nerfed out but zerg hasn't (because no one uses it). This was done by a zealot build time nerf and making it so you can't build a barracks without a depot, also the build time increase. Also the queen ranged buff.
On August 30 2012 00:33 AnomalySC2 wrote: The only part that's unfair about early pools is the fact that Terran and Toss both had their early game cheeses nerfed out but zerg hasn't (because no one uses it). This was done by a zealot build time nerf and making it so you can't build a barracks without a depot, also the build time increase. Also the queen ranged buff.
Those cheeses were a lot harder to handle than 6pooling, which anyone can handle really.
This is a new guide on how to beat all types of 6/7/8 Pools with Hatch First, as well as a few types of 10 Pools. The other guide was way too long, and too wordy. This is an update
7 Pool, Drone 6xLings Send All but 2 Drones when Lings nearly finish @140 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick 4xLings, send last 2 drones
Continue to Drone up, and make an overlord. Cancel Nat. Send out a drone to put a spine in his base, then base trade when he arrives.
This is because you want to plant a spine in his base as your last building, as spines can walk off creep without losing health, and if you screw up, you can force a stalemate by not killing his hatch. An extractor works, but a spine makes things much easier.
When he arrives at your base, run to his base via mineral walking (If you defensively drone stack, then right click another mineral patch, then right click a mineral patch in his base or at another base before they arrive to the currently destined patch, they will stay stuck as 'one drone'.
Rally lings, careful not to lose them.
If you get out with 4+ Lings, you will win a straight up fight easily. If you get out with 2+ Lings, you will need to micro If you get out with less than 2 lings, you will lose without superior micro. Force a stalemate, or bumrush his last building, his spine, if he lets your drones get between him and his spine (15 drones will kill a walking spine quicker than 10 lings+6 Drones can kill the 15 drones)
Getting enough Lings out:
Focusing his spine down because you didn't get any lings out:
A 6/7/8 Pool with Lings rallied and may or may not have a Spine.
If he doesn't make a spine, make 2 spines in your mineral line, and defensively mineral walk to protect it, as you will win any battle inside the mineral line with a full surround. But most people make spines, so:
Continue droning up, make an overlord, Cancel Nat. Pull 4 Drones to focus 1 spine at a time, and be extremely aggressive in the open, you will easily win.
If someone does a 6 Pool with Spine, attack. Do not be afraid to be extremely aggressive - the opponent will not have enough lings or units to beat your army. Aggressively attack toward him, and then pull 4+ drones to attack the spine. If he makes 2 spines, be even more aggressive, as no ling reinforcements will be on the way, and you can definitely win the battle. The key here is really, really, really being super aggressive with your drones in this fight.
Micro is also important. Use hold position on hurt drones, and if you just have a few drones attacking and able to be attacked (like going through a choke), box over them and mineral walk them to retreat them to the back of the line. Never engage in a choke.
As you can see in this replay, I'm extremely aggressive against the 6 Pool Double Spine, and just absolutely crush his army, taking any chance he backs off, to kill his spines. Don't pull 4+4 drones per spine, only pull 4 drones at a time to focus a single spine at a time, and then with the rest of the drones, attack (if you pull 8 of your drones away, you won't win a fight). Simply work one spine down, then the other, and if he runs away, pull the fighting fleet of drones to attack the other spine.
The reason you can't, say, just put X+1 spines in your mineral line and defensively drone stack and pool lings and wait until the spines pop, so you can re-root and engage, is because a 6 pool + Spines can actually focus your hatch down before your spines finish, and that just sucks.
PS: If anyone is dumb enough to just attack your drones, defensively drone stack (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) and kill all his units. Sometimes you'll run into stupid people who will just a-move into your drones, and you defensively drone stack and they'll lose everything to it, even when they have a spine on the way (at which point you can just overwhelm that spine quite easily).
CheckPrime first showcased this as an anti-hatch first build, and after Nestea's 10 pool, this has since fallen out of favor. Still deadly, but beatable.
- 10 Pool - 10 Gas - Overlord, Extractor trick - Constant Lings, Morph Banelings at opponent's base
To beat this: - Morph 3 Spines in Mineral Line, a little bit spread out so baneling splash doesn't wipe all of them out easily (he shouldn't go for them, but if he does) - 2xQueens - Spread your drones very well
You actually need to micro pretty well to beat this, as in spread your drones like a boss (you should see him morphing banes and start working on splitting right away). It's okay if you lose half your drones, with 2 queens, 2+ spines, and a hatch, you should be immune to further aggression.
10 Gas, Drone 10 Pool, Overlord Speed, Pull from Gas Queen, Lings
Make a spine in Nat and Main. 2 Queens Mass Lings when you see he's clearly 10 Pooling (Pull drones if necessary) Block the ramp
So how can you tell it's a 10 Pool that's pooling speedlings, and not, say a 14/14 all-in? Send that overlord you sent to his nat, to check into his main real quick. If a Queen is there, it's a 10 Pool. Or, if you see Lings flowing across the map ~3:00 (a 10 pool finishes around 2:50) without drones backing them up, and he isn't morphing banelings in your base.
It's pretty easy to beat this. Now that you know it's a 10 pool speedling, you'll want to make a spine in both your main and nat (if he sends his initial lings immediately over, this is important, as well as when the speedling mass comes). Pool lings at your ramp, where him having speed won't mean anything, and hold position with your queens there, and eventually bring the spine from your nat, to your natural, when you see you can clearly hold the ramp.
Just defensively drone stack while getting Queens, Lings
If he only sends lings, do not run around in circles around your hatchery like Lalush did vs Curious. Instead, defensively drone stack in a recessed mineral patch (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) until your Lings, Queens pop. Pretty straightforward. Don't cancel your natural, just pull your drones and queens to save it if he goes for it. This type of 10 pool is pretty silly.
10 Pool with 8 of 12 Drones Pulled and 1-2 Spines + Show Spoiler +
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main. However, never fear, there's a way to beat it.
- 10 Pool @125 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick, Drone scout for Hatch First - 8+ Lings - Send 8 of 12 drones when Lings are about to pop - Make 1 Spine at each base of opponent or 2 Spines
You lose
Lol I remember when you first wrote that guide, I ran into you in teamliquid chat, and because I didn't believe you, I went ahead and offraced zerg and beat you like 10 times in a row with some variant of early pool, but a different one each game xD
I assume you fixed things after that ^^. Just made me remember funny stuff haha.
edit - I remember especially the part where you complained that I was microing my lings/drones too much and they weren't dying xD. Ahhh good times.
On August 30 2012 00:33 AnomalySC2 wrote: The only part that's unfair about early pools is the fact that Terran and Toss both had their early game cheeses nerfed out but zerg hasn't (because no one uses it). This was done by a zealot build time nerf and making it so you can't build a barracks without a depot, also the build time increase. Also the queen ranged buff.
Those cheeses were a lot harder to handle than 6pooling, which anyone can handle really.
Harder to handle or the terran and toss players used them better/more often? The only top zergs I've seen that use early pools both won GSL, fruitdealer and nestea.
The only part that's unfair about early pools is the fact that Terran and Toss both had their early game cheeses nerfed out but zerg hasn't (because no one uses it). This was done by a zealot build time nerf and making it so you can't build a barracks without a depot, also the build time increase. Also the queen ranged buff.
I would have no problem if they made pool require 2 overlords, but you should never lose to a 6/7/8 pool as T or P. P can go pylon scout so they can reactively go nexus first safely every time, and T can beat early pool with cc first and 1 rax FE, just like zerg can. And the old zealot build times and rax build times made it so zerg had no way to possibly hold 2 rax or 2 gate with a standard pool first. At least with early pools you can survive if you go forge first or 1 rax expand, ie 'standard' openers.
Maybe you just remember things wrong. People like to make out like Zerg is a bunch of whiners or something, you never played 5 rax reaper. You basically had to do a 7RR just to not autolose.
Lol I remember when you first wrote that guide, I ran into you in teamliquid chat, and because I didn't believe you, I went ahead and offraced zerg and beat you like 10 times in a row with some variant of early pool, but a different one each game xD
I assume you fixed things after that ^^. Just made me remember funny stuff haha.
edit - I remember especially the part where you complained that I was microing my lings/drones too much and they weren't dying xD. Ahhh good times.
I don't really recall. When were the games? They could have been before I had found a solution.
What you say doesn't sound correct, that I would complain about you micro'ing your units. If anything, I'd specifically ask for you to micro them.
Most likely though, you were probably one of a couple trolls who would ask me to help them or see if the solution they came up with would work, and then troll when it didn't work, as if they had beat me, when I specifically did not do what I state you should do in the guide. i just recall a lot of rude people like you.
i just would like to tell belial that his buildorders require knowing what is coming. scouting what is very uncommon in zvz and puts u economical "pretty far" behind. common zerg vs zerg scout is with the overlord and later on when 2-4 lings are out. without knowing and saving up larva you do not stand a chance. so it requires knowing. and still after cutting all that safety corners the 7pooling zerg still can get a draw on "bad maps" (where a spinecrawler can camp the choke) and on normal maps u still should be able to win.
i dont even know why u mention "daybreak" as a special map since it has the biggest walking distance of the current ladderpool (at least 2 months ago)
On August 30 2012 14:45 Bad_Habit wrote: i just would like to tell belial that his buildorders require knowing what is coming. scouting what is very uncommon in zvz and puts u economical "pretty far" behind. common zerg vs zerg scout is with the overlord and later on when 2-4 lings are out. without knowing and saving up larva you do not stand a chance. so it requires knowing. and still after cutting all that safety corners the 7pooling zerg still can get a draw on "bad maps" (where a spinecrawler can camp the choke) and on normal maps u still should be able to win.
i dont even know why u mention "daybreak" as a special map since it has the biggest walking distance of the current ladderpool (at least 2 months ago)
With an overlord, it should be pretty clear if the opponent is pulling all his drones or not. You can also tell what the opponent is doing based on if you have a ton of drones arriving inside your base or not.
You do not need to save up larva. That's the worst thing you can do, you want to be pumping drones.
As the games between us proved, you cannot beat hatch first with your 7 pool build, as long as the hatch first player responds correctly. If the 7 pooler doesn't focus down the hatch, then the Hatch first player should be able to win the engagement with a rooting spine, ~17 drones, 4 lings vs rooted spine, 10 lings, 6 drones
no u r completely wrong wit wat u wrot. u want to hav most dronez possibel, ie most units possible.
hatch isn't going to die anytime soon. if you are doing a drone all-in, you want to pump drones, since the drone+ling force will force you to run away and can still surround the eggs, and with not-all-drones pulled, you want as many drones as possible to fight straight up, since your pool isn't finishing anytime soon.
all our match proved, is that there is no way possible for you to win, because 18 drones will just bumrush your spine and kill it way before you can kill the drones before they kill the spine, or you can kill my spine.
You can't force the stalemate, the hatch first player can force a stalemate by not killing the hatch.
i long ago said i would not discuss about this topic with you anymore since ur lacking basicknowledge.
why didnt u rush my spinecrawler then? ur force wouldnt have a chance killing my force nor would you get in any good position to kill off my spinecrawler. i even felt that confident that i tried to crush your posi on the highground with ur rooted spine but made 2 missclicks.
i completely agree that the hatch player will win if he reacts proberly, but the way u tried it was not the right way.
last thing i will post to this topic ever.
now would u mind stop posting ur crappy guide in every single page of the comments? i kinda got tired of it over the time, knowing its not even the right responds and all good stuff is just writen off my tips on how to react^^
also i would like some random ppl (hopefully with basic knowledge) can comment something about the replay belial just posted to see his sight of things. if you actually think that beliial couldve got mroe than stalement with me beeing passiv (not even me rooting my spine at his hatch and not killing it off.
You could have had whitera that game he commentated, I think there was an opening. For one, your money was way too high! That would have been amazing if you transitioned out of a 7pool into a win against his special tactics.
Habit, may I ask whether you're still in GM and whether it still works with the current metagame?
This thread makes me sad for many reasons. After all the nerfs to gateways, barracks, bunkers, and cannons, you'd think they would realize that leaving one race with better cheeses and better macro is just horrible. The fact that this works so well at pro level against pro's that have already faced you and probably assume you are cheesing, just proves how poorly the game is balanced.
This thread makes me sad for many reasons. After all the nerfs to gateways, barracks, bunkers, and cannons, you'd think they would realize that leaving one race with better cheeses and better macro is just horrible. The fact that this works so well at pro level against pro's that have already faced you and probably assume you are cheesing, just proves how poorly the game is balanced.
You have no idea what you are talking about, just like the OP. Zerg has the worst cheese (but better macro). 6/7/8 Pool is just not viable outside of ZvP. Even in ZvP i don't think people really do it anymore because it just puts you so far behind o_o
i long ago said i would not discuss about this topic with you anymore since ur lacking basicknowledge.
why didnt u rush my spinecrawler then? ur force wouldnt have a chance killing my force nor would you get in any good position to kill off my spinecrawler. i even felt that confident that i tried to crush your posi on the highground with ur rooted spine but made 2 missclicks.
i completely agree that the hatch player will win if he reacts proberly, but the way u tried it was not the right way.
last thing i will post to this topic ever.
now would u mind stop posting ur crappy guide in every single page of the comments? i kinda got tired of it over the time, knowing its not even the right responds and all good stuff is just writen off my tips on how to react^^
also i would like some random ppl (hopefully with basic knowledge) can comment something about the replay belial just posted to see his sight of things. if you actually think that beliial couldve got mroe than stalement with me beeing passiv (not even me rooting my spine at his hatch and not killing it off.
I did rush your spinecrawler...
Please, enlighten us with a different way to hold a drone all-in with hatch first. I didn't bother finding a 2nd way to hold it because the way I created just makes it so damn easy to hold.
My guide is a million times better than your guide, and if I post that 'guide' i posted in the last page as a new update, it will be a billiont imes better than your guide.
Please. The longest I've ever been banned was a month. And, i've only been banned 5 times. That alone is why I am clearly more correct than you. That and I don't type like I'm 12, god that's obnoxious. I mean grammar nazis are losers but how u typ lik tat.
On August 31 2012 05:45 Reborn8u wrote: This thread makes me sad for many reasons. After all the nerfs to gateways, barracks, bunkers, and cannons, you'd think they would realize that leaving one race with better cheeses and better macro is just horrible. The fact that this works so well at pro level against pro's that have already faced you and probably assume you are cheesing, just proves how poorly the game is balanced.
Have you ever heard of a player by the tag of Gaulzi?
You have no idea what you are talking about, just like the OP. Zerg has the worst cheese (but better macro). 6/7/8 Pool is just not viable outside of ZvP. Even in ZvP i don't think people really do it anymore because it just puts you so far behind o_o
Proxy hatch, fast lair into spine rush, nydus, baneling bust (you might might consider that as an all in instead of cheese but I think it is cheese), etc. Zerg has many strong cheeses, just like Protoss and Terran.
About topic - 6pool is good, but not on ladder, since it teaches you nothing and will get boring pretty fast (I think), it is better as a BoX build, to throw your opponent off and maybe score a fast win against Protoss. It is good against Opponents who play greedy, so it is sort of a metagame build against known opponents.
On August 31 2012 05:45 Reborn8u wrote: This thread makes me sad for many reasons. After all the nerfs to gateways, barracks, bunkers, and cannons, you'd think they would realize that leaving one race with better cheeses and better macro is just horrible. The fact that this works so well at pro level against pro's that have already faced you and probably assume you are cheesing, just proves how poorly the game is balanced.
Despite all the nerfs, to barracks and bunkers we still see Terrans hold 6 pool with command center first.
Even if they have nerfed all the things mentioned they have also changed the maps to much larger maps thus all kind of early pools have become less effective.
On August 31 2012 16:09 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Man, what happened to Madfrog? Did he go over to LoL? Because I liked him :/
hes back to his prison job. after "missing success" (seems he had very high standarts) he decided to quit esports once again. :/ was the same with his comeback in wc3. he played decently but then he set all on a match vs mouz roman(or romeo, cant recall its been a long time sine then^^) where he lost a very close game 1-2 and roman was really a really good orc (orc vs undead has been (and still is i guess) broken since at least 8 years)
met him from time pokering 11-55$ tournaments but only on partypoker i think and we had a little smalltalk
just want to let you guys know its still possible to place an account into grandmaster even thothe win percentage (guess due to more maphacker and bigger maps) is lower.
On September 21 2012 17:58 Bad_Habit wrote: just want to let you guys know its still possible to place an account into grandmaster even thothe win percentage (guess due to more maphacker and bigger maps) is lower.
Are you GM this season? I just dont see it working anymore with the new maps, would be nice if you could link like your sc2ranks profile =)
On September 23 2012 12:03 FeeLdAfuRy wrote: Just adding to the FameToFlame = maphacker confirmation.
Sent 3 probes straight across the map on Entombed to harass my CC first, and was indeed BM.
Ahhh I knew he did. I played him twice, he even 6 pooled me and failed when i went gas first.
Drew him again and he goes mass ling bling no scout pounces on my hellions when he didn't even see where they were.
just want to let you guys know its still possible to place an account into grandmaster even thothe win percentage (guess due to more maphacker and bigger maps) is lower.
Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
On September 23 2012 15:00 Vermiiifuuge wrote: Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
lol watch the game he played against me. So fucking badly controlled drones, he lets me get the damn depot up
Anyway, on topic. Yeah, you can get to GM by 6-pooling, sure. But its not really worth doing. Just getting to GM doesn't actually get you anything. Winning tournements gets you something. But the more the win is worth, the better the opponents will be, and the harder it will be to successfully 6-pool.
I mean, how do you think NesTea would do in GSL Code S if he 6-pooled every game?
On September 23 2012 15:00 Vermiiifuuge wrote: Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
Anyway, on topic. Yeah, you can get to GM by 6-pooling, sure. But its not really worth doing. Just getting to GM doesn't actually get you anything. Winning tournements gets you something. But the more the win is worth, the better the opponents will be, and the harder it will be to successfully 6-pool.
I mean, how do you think NesTea would do in GSL Code S if he 6-pooled every game?
yea that FametoFlame guy being the creator of this thread.
seriously this thread should just be called "How to get to GM by maphacking"
Anyway, on topic. Yeah, you can get to GM by 6-pooling, sure. But its not really worth doing. Just getting to GM doesn't actually get you anything. Winning tournements gets you something. But the more the win is worth, the better the opponents will be, and the harder it will be to successfully 6-pool.
I mean, how do you think NesTea would do in GSL Code S if he 6-pooled every game?
yea that FametoFlame guy being the creator of this thread.
seriously this thread should just be called "How to get to GM by maphacking"
Ya I got two recent reps just from last night where he looks through fog and clicks on my ramp, one time cross map scouting and 6 pooling....and failing. Sad.
Hey i guess you know who i am. FameToFlame is my friends acc i used in some seasons. yet i havent played since more than a year on this account. i will ask him today who is playing on the account right now to get things straight. it cant be the owner since hes like silver or something.
Habit is my only account i only use myself.
also im not playing anymore only for customers who pay for grandmaster. if thats a reason to keep me banned feel free to. i do not care about this game anymore, but my repuation is kinda important to me and im no hacker
On September 23 2012 15:00 Vermiiifuuge wrote: Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
whoever u played probably wasnt me.
to all, u think a guy who barly can keep in master with negative win/loss and MAPHACK is me? i doubt theres a way to lose a single game when u maphack even tho u would be only mid master since sc2 is all about blind counters. it seems to me whoever plays on the account right now has problems even to win some games on my former mmr. even with maphack.
Edit: i now have read through the chats, that guy even pretends to be me from what i could read. :/
On September 24 2012 18:02 Sakkreth wrote: I am sorry to hear that you care about your reputation, because your reputation couldn't get much lower.
i dont mind my reputaiton as an asshole whatsoever. but i dont like the hacker reputation^^ inbefore judging about me to easy plz compare apm groups etc.
On September 23 2012 15:00 Vermiiifuuge wrote: Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
whoever u played probably wasnt me.
to all, u think a guy who barly can keep in master with negative win/loss and MAPHACK is me? i doubt theres a way to lose a single game when u maphack even tho u would be only mid master since sc2 is all about blind counters. it seems to me whoever plays on the account right now has problems even to win some games on my former mmr. even with maphack.
Edit: i now have read through the chats, that guy even pretends to be me from what i could read. :/
Whoever I played, was playing on your account and was actively telling me he was you. At the time we played (one custom game), you were gm. It's your mechanics/multitask/game knowledge etc that was mid-master.
On September 23 2012 15:00 Vermiiifuuge wrote: Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
whoever u played probably wasnt me.
to all, u think a guy who barly can keep in master with negative win/loss and MAPHACK is me? i doubt theres a way to lose a single game when u maphack even tho u would be only mid master since sc2 is all about blind counters. it seems to me whoever plays on the account right now has problems even to win some games on my former mmr. even with maphack.
Edit: i now have read through the chats, that guy even pretends to be me from what i could read. :/
Whoever I played, was playing on your account and was actively telling me he was you. At the time we played (one custom game), you were gm. It's your mechanics/multitask/game knowledge etc that was mid-master.
i dont mind if ppl say im bad, but i dont want ppl to think i hack. yet i never played cgs with ppl i dont know, u probably played the owner back then since he enjoyed "beeing gm" (even tho low-mid master is kinda to good for him)
nor have i played any games on this account for 5-6 seasons now, expect some 3n3 4n4 with friends (not sc2 friends) as soon im home from work and can contact the owner i will clear things.
On September 24 2012 17:54 Bad_HabitALT wrote: Hey i guess you know who i am. FameToFlame is my friends acc i used in some seasons. yet i havent played since more than a year on this account. i will ask him today who is playing on the account right now to get things straight. it cant be the owner since hes like silver or something.
Habit is my only account i only use myself.
also im not playing anymore only for customers who pay for grandmaster. if thats a reason to keep me banned feel free to. i do not care about this game anymore, but my repuation is kinda important to me and im no hacker
You know, TL doesn't adopt strict judicial system. Benefit of the doubt doesn't favor you. Dark gray = black in mod's eyes. There is a chance you didn't hack ever, but we have no evidence except for your own words. Sure, it sucks that your friend or your friend's friend used the account for hack, but it is also your fault for using someone else's account in the first place. Just suck it up, learn the lesson, and don't make similar mistakes for the rest of your life. It's fortunate that you didn't make this kind of mistake in your serious business occasion. Think positively that way.
On September 24 2012 17:54 Bad_HabitALT wrote: Hey i guess you know who i am. FameToFlame is my friends acc i used in some seasons. yet i havent played since more than a year on this account. i will ask him today who is playing on the account right now to get things straight. it cant be the owner since hes like silver or something.
Habit is my only account i only use myself.
also im not playing anymore only for customers who pay for grandmaster. if thats a reason to keep me banned feel free to. i do not care about this game anymore, but my repuation is kinda important to me and im no hacker
You know, TL doesn't adopt strict judicial system. Benefit of the doubt doesn't favor you. Dark gray = black in mod's eyes. There is a chance you didn't hack ever, but we have no evidence except for your own words. Sure, it sucks that your friend or your friend's friend used the account for hack, but it is also your fault for using someone else's account in the first place. Just suck it up, learn the lesson, and don't make similar mistakes for the rest of your life. It's fortunate that you didn't make this kind of mistake in your serious business occasion. Think positively that way.
I think if this goes on then we shall have another drama/witch hunt thread
On September 24 2012 17:54 Bad_HabitALT wrote: Hey i guess you know who i am. FameToFlame is my friends acc i used in some seasons. yet i havent played since more than a year on this account. i will ask him today who is playing on the account right now to get things straight. it cant be the owner since hes like silver or something.
Habit is my only account i only use myself.
also im not playing anymore only for customers who pay for grandmaster. if thats a reason to keep me banned feel free to. i do not care about this game anymore, but my repuation is kinda important to me and im no hacker
You know, TL doesn't adopt strict judicial system. Benefit of the doubt doesn't favor you. Dark gray = black in mod's eyes. There is a chance you didn't hack ever, but we have no evidence except for your own words. Sure, it sucks that your friend or your friend's friend used the account for hack, but it is also your fault for using someone else's account in the first place. Just suck it up, learn the lesson, and don't make similar mistakes for the rest of your life. It's fortunate that you didn't make this kind of mistake in your serious business occasion. Think positively that way.
i was thinking about taking the game more seriously when hots gets released and this just destroyes my reputation because every team who would be interested in me would just get spammed by the community that im a hacker. i only used the account because i have no own NA account.
Edit: Whatever, feel free to check all my replays for hack or anything illegal. i have nothing to hide. But im getting tired that i have to defend myself all the time for doing nothing but playing the game with my own style. Im out of this discussion
On September 23 2012 15:00 Vermiiifuuge wrote: Bad_Habit maphacking comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's ever played him. He's not very good at this game. Like you dont have to be particularly good to get gm, but when I met him, he was like mid-master skill at best.
whoever u played probably wasnt me.
to all, u think a guy who barly can keep in master with negative win/loss and MAPHACK is me? i doubt theres a way to lose a single game when u maphack even tho u would be only mid master since sc2 is all about blind counters. it seems to me whoever plays on the account right now has problems even to win some games on my former mmr. even with maphack.
Edit: i now have read through the chats, that guy even pretends to be me from what i could read. :/
Whoever I played, was playing on your account and was actively telling me he was you. At the time we played (one custom game), you were gm. It's your mechanics/multitask/game knowledge etc that was mid-master.
i dont mind if ppl say im bad, but i dont want ppl to think i hack. yet i never played cgs with ppl i dont know, u probably played the owner back then since he enjoyed "beeing gm" (even tho low-mid master is kinda to good for him)
nor have i played any games on this account for 5-6 seasons now, expect some 3n3 4n4 with friends (not sc2 friends) as soon im home from work and can contact the owner i will clear things.
This is possible, I have no way to confirm whether I was playing your friend or you.
hey ive just talked to the accoutowner and he told me hasnt given away the password but recently received this email from blizzard.
Due to suspicious activity, the Battle.net account xxx@xxx.net has been locked. To restore access to this account, please follow these steps:
Step 1: Secure Your Computer
In the event that your computer has been infected with malicious software such as a keylogger or trojan, simply changing your password may not deter future attacks without first ensuring that your computer is free from these programs. Please visit our Account Security website to learn how to secure your computer from unauthorized access.
Step 2: Secure Your E-mail Account
After you have secured your computer, please create a new password for your e-mail account since it may also be compromised. Be sure to check your e-mail filters and rules and look for any e-mail forwarding rules that you did not create. For more information on securing your e-mail account, visit this Support page.
Step 3: Choose a New Password
You must change your password in order to resume using this Battle.net account. Please click this link to choose a new password:
*Note that your former password no longer grants access to Battle.net account management, World of Warcraft, or any other login-protected Battle.net account service.
On September 25 2012 00:37 Bad_HabitALT wrote: hey ive just talked to the accoutowner and he told me hasnt given away the password but recently received this email from blizzard.
Due to suspicious activity, the Battle.net account xxx@xxx.net has been locked. To restore access to this account, please follow these steps:
Step 1: Secure Your Computer
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it seems the accout got hacked or something i dont know
thanks to ghanburighan for the efford
this shit really makes me sad
The account didn't get hacked or anything. That message is usually received when someone alternates between accounts too often on one computer... lol... oddly fitting considering the discussion.
Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
On September 25 2012 14:10 FameToFlame wrote: Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
once again Sorry
xoxoxoxox
HAHAHAHAHH so how come when we played last week you called out that I was 6 pooling in the first 20 seconds of the game?
Hey, monk/someone who can: would it be possible to run an IP on both Habit and FameToFlame's accounts? Because this is getting fishier that I thought possible.
On September 25 2012 14:10 FameToFlame wrote: Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
once again Sorry
xoxoxoxox
wow, I'm totally convinced now.
In other news, FlametoFlame and Bad_Habit don't share the same IP, which doesn't prove anything. But I found one of Bad_Habit's other accounts, JustinBieberFanboy, which he used to respond to himself in this thread.
On September 25 2012 14:29 AgentW wrote: Hey, monk/someone who can: would it be possible to run an IP on both Habit and FameToFlame's accounts? Because this is getting fishier that I thought possible.
It's possible to obtain his MAC adress too I think. What about a MAC adress ban + an IP ban ? (IF he's guilty of course...) :D
On September 25 2012 14:10 FameToFlame wrote: Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
once again Sorry
xoxoxoxox
wow, I'm totally convinced now.
In other news, FlametoFlame and Bad_Habit don't share the same IP, which doesn't prove anything. But I found one of Bad_Habit's other accounts, JustinBieberFanboy, which he used to respond to himself in this thread.
On September 25 2012 14:10 FameToFlame wrote: Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
once again Sorry
xoxoxoxox
wow, I'm totally convinced now.
In other news, FlametoFlame and Bad_Habit don't share the same IP, which doesn't prove anything. But I found one of Bad_Habit's other accounts, JustinBieberFanboy, which he used to respond to himself in this thread.
i even uploaded this replay myself and i was just trolling about the maphack. i send my overlord to airclose and when theres noone i send my drones + lings crossed (since close by ground posi isnt possible) he placed his raxes in my natural way and there was no maphack at all included in that game.
I cannot comfirm that i am justinbieberfanboy, nor do i like justin bieber O_O
On September 25 2012 14:10 FameToFlame wrote: Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
once again Sorry
xoxoxoxox
wow, I'm totally convinced now.
In other news, FlametoFlame and Bad_Habit don't share the same IP, which doesn't prove anything. But I found one of Bad_Habit's other accounts, JustinBieberFanboy, which he used to respond to himself in this thread.
i even uploaded this replay myself and i was just trolling about the maphack. i send my overlord to airclose and when theres noone i send my drones + lings crossed (since close by ground posi isnt possible) he placed his raxes in my natural way and there was no maphack at all included in that game.
I cannot comfirm that i am justinbieberfanboy, nor do i like justin bieber O_O
User was banned for this post.
Bad_HabitALT was just banned by monk..
That account was created on 2012-09-24 17:50:51 and had 7 posts.
Reason: Previously banned hacker.
The case is closed, Bad_HabitALT didn't manage to find the evidence to overcome a number of damning points against him and in a PM decided to leave it be: "I'll distance from sc2."
b) hotkeys in the replay (257216) matching previous uploaded games of Bad_Habit: http://drop.sc/56357 http://drop.sc/54901 The other replays differ only marginally.
c) A number of cases of BM and claiming to hack (although those games were not deemed to be hacking games) For example: Avilo http://li358-26.members.linode.com/54898
The evidence was not conclusive, it could be that:
a) the account FlametoFame was stolen b) the hotkeys are being matched intentionally, as the only replay with a perfect match was 2 days ago. c) The claims of hacking were stupid trolling.
There were also posts by someone Bad_Habit claims to not know who said that a hacker called Dark_Mage recently obtained the account FlametoFame from him and is using it to hack. Monk confirmed that the IP addresses differed.
Yet, there is no evidence from hotkeys or through independent sources that can demonstrate that Bad_Habit was not using his old account. This led to him deciding to move on. Contributing to Bad_Habit's decision to not fight the charges was a certain incompatibility with TeamLiquid. In the end, he had intentionally trolled and BM'd, something that is frowned upon in TL independent from hacking. So, with the evidence tipped against Bad_Habit, the case is closed, and Bad_Habit is banned.
Due to your recent actions of banning Habit without sufficient evidence and merely on hearsay alone i am going to make it my mission to bring you down... good luck in future endeavours i will be watching and preparing.
On September 25 2012 14:10 FameToFlame wrote: Hello all i am writing this reply to clear Habit from the recent allegations of maphacking. i am the registered owner of the account and can confirm the account password has recently been obtained by a hacker with the alias Dark_Mage. he obtained the password from me while i was trying to purchase a Taiwan account online. he has been logging into my NA account on several occasions over the past 24 hours which has caused blizzard to put a hold on my account until i answered security questions etc... as shown in the email Habit attached previously.
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
I would like to take this opportunity to apologies to all the community members for any hardship or confusion my negligence over account security has caused.
i hope we can move on from this and resolve Habit from the recent inflammatory reputation of "map hacker"
once again Sorry
xoxoxoxox
wow, I'm totally convinced now.
In other news, FlametoFlame and Bad_Habit don't share the same IP, which doesn't prove anything. But I found one of Bad_Habit's other accounts, JustinBieberFanboy, which he used to respond to himself in this thread.
LOL!
Due to your recent actions of banning Habit without sufficient evidence and merely on hearsay alone i am going to make it my mission to bring you down... good luck in future endeavours i will be watching and preparing.
DDOS
Even funnier lol
The account was only compromised for 24 hours. i believe only 9 games where played. 5 losses
9 games, and you played me twice, and about 2-3 other people posted replays... I think there were more than 9 games, buddy lol
Also, that letter is from EU bnet... not NA bnet... and the account FametoFlame is NA account, not EU. So please, explain that?
This is pretty must the most majestic thing I have seen all day. It almost like justice was waiting to brighten my day and said "Click that link, I just did some great work in there. Trust me"
On September 26 2012 07:43 shadowboxin wrote: I played against FametoFlame on the ladder and he insulted me for 10mins and kept pming me after the game. im happy this kid got banned.
Has no one else taken note that that 'letter' from blizzard is an EU blizzard letter...and not from NA, where fametoflame supposedly logged on and off multiple times to get it reset?
On September 26 2012 04:42 Ghanburighan wrote: b) hotkeys in the replay (257216) matching previous uploaded games of Bad_Habit: http://drop.sc/56357 http://drop.sc/54901
Did you confuse your replays? I just watched all 3. In 257216 you have FameToFlame playing with 150 APM, putting his Hatch on 1 and his army on 2. In 56357 and 54901 you have Habit playing at around 80 APM with army on 1 and Hatchery on 4. As near as I can tell the APM differs by a factor of 2 and the hotkeys are totally different. I would hardly use this as evidence that the two accounts are played by the same player.
I'm NeverDie, a protoss GM on EU server. I met Bad_Habit on the ladder, and he won with an early pool. At this time i were looking for an NA account.
Firstly, i BM'd him (understand me, 6 pool is not really skill'd...), but he stayed mannered and we get friends, finally.
15 minutes after i had BM'd him, he even shared his NA account (FameToFlame) with me, regardless to my old rage, when I were not even knowing him. (no, I'm not the hacker.)
Today, it's one of my best friends, and i cant even imagine that's this guy is the hacker you're talking about.
Anyway, I hope that this message will make you understand that you are wrong accusing him.
On September 26 2012 04:42 Ghanburighan wrote: b) hotkeys in the replay (257216) matching previous uploaded games of Bad_Habit: http://drop.sc/56357 http://drop.sc/54901
Did you confuse your replays? I just watched all 3. In 257216 you have FameToFlame playing with 150 APM, putting his Hatch on 1 and his army on 2. In 56357 and 54901 you have Habit playing at around 80 APM with army on 1 and Hatchery on 4. As near as I can tell the APM differs by a factor of 2 and the hotkeys are totally different. I would hardly use this as evidence that the two accounts are played by the same player.
This!
If Bad Habit is a hacker, he is the most pro hacker there ever was. You don't just change hotkeys/apm just like that. The evidence against him is quite weak and everyone should be considered innocent untill proven guilty.
I'm sonder, grandmaster on EU. I've been playing against habbit several times when he was active. And i have no intentions of taking any part in this discussion, but after getting owned to his 6 pool, i looked the replays and saw no evidence of any maphack, just very good micro.
I dont really find the evidence against him being valid, since as mentioned before, there is also evidence that he is not a haphacker.
I dont think someone should be banned just because someone thinks he is a maphacker.
i still dont understand why he got banned, what page does it start at? after reading his original post in this thread eveyone of his games he scouted. And I don't understand what hacking comes of changing your hotkeys..wtf
On September 28 2012 03:22 nSgNeverDie wrote: Dudes... let's me say something.
I'm NeverDie, a protoss GM on EU server. I met Bad_Habit on the ladder, and he won with an early pool. At this time i were looking for an NA account.
Firstly, i BM'd him (understand me, 6 pool is not really skill'd...), but he stayed mannered and we get friends, finally.
15 minutes after i had BM'd him, he even shared his NA account (FameToFlame) with me, regardless to my old rage, when I were not even knowing him. (no, I'm not the hacker.)
Today, it's one of my best friends, and i cant even imagine that's this guy is the hacker you're talking about.
Anyway, I hope that this message will make you understand that you are wrong accusing him.
NeverDie
Wait, how many people have access to this account? Apparently FlametoFlame is a person(with one post) who claims his account was hacked by some Darkmage character. But the account is also owned by Bad_Habit and loaned out to this guy, who also has very few posts? Which is real? Or are they all just different personalities of Bad_Habit himself, fighting for control? Maybe only one of the personalities is a hacker and the rest have no idea. Though, why would they all know the login for the same battle.net account?
What is real? What is REAL?
On September 28 2012 21:33 Sonder wrote: I'm sonder, grandmaster on EU. I've been playing against habbit several times when he was active. And i have no intentions of taking any part in this discussion, but after getting owned to his 6 pool, i looked the replays and saw no evidence of any maphack, just very good micro.
I dont really find the evidence against him being valid, since as mentioned before, there is also evidence that he is not a haphacker.
I dont think someone should be banned just because someone thinks he is a maphacker.
And then there is this post by our boy Sonder. His only other post...defending Bad_Habit from claims of stream cheating months ago. He is a very focused member of team Liquid and is only intrested in posting in this thread, specificly about Bad_Habit. All other threads are not worth his time. This personality might be representive of Bad_Habit's ego and guilt, trying to justify and defendant the core personality from attack. It is unclear though, as there are only two posts.
I don't understand why you posted the troll fight with beasty... He's obviously (with reason) kind of pissed that you 6pooled him, but you just failed to answer the question : What is your pro wc3 name lol?
Anyways I'm confused about this post, not about the 6pool part, I get it, 6pool is good, I get 6pooled all the time in GM, big deal, but your post is kind of twisted with like fame hunger or something.
The case is closed, Bad_HabitALT didn't manage to find the evidence to overcome a number of damning points against him and in a PM decided to leave it be: "I'll distance from sc2."
b) hotkeys in the replay (257216) matching previous uploaded games of Bad_Habit: http://drop.sc/56357 http://drop.sc/54901 The other replays differ only marginally.
c) A number of cases of BM and claiming to hack (although those games were not deemed to be hacking games) For example: Avilo http://li358-26.members.linode.com/54898
I see no evidence that would suggest Habit is a hacker.
54898 - Habit playing FlametoFame's account. THERE IS NO HACKING IN THIS GAME. 70 APM. Hatch on 4.. 256811 - Hacker playing Protoss at 150 APM. Nexus hotkeyed to 5. 256902 - Hacker playing Zerg at 150 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 5. 257216 - Hacker playing Zerg at 150 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 1.
56357 - Habit playing Zeg. 80 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 4. 54901 - Habit playing Zerg. 80 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 4.
These replays provide no evidence of Habit hacking. We know that Habit once played on an account that is now used for hacking, but it is clear that these are different players. In no two games do Habit and the hacker use the same hotkey for their Nexus/Hatch and their APMs differ by a factor of 2.
Do we have any recent replays of Habit? Is there any evidence that he is even capable of playing at 150 APM?
On September 28 2012 03:22 nSgNeverDie wrote: Dudes... let's me say something.
I'm NeverDie, a protoss GM on EU server. I met Bad_Habit on the ladder, and he won with an early pool. At this time i were looking for an NA account.
Firstly, i BM'd him (understand me, 6 pool is not really skill'd...), but he stayed mannered and we get friends, finally.
15 minutes after i had BM'd him, he even shared his NA account (FameToFlame) with me, regardless to my old rage, when I were not even knowing him. (no, I'm not the hacker.)
Today, it's one of my best friends, and i cant even imagine that's this guy is the hacker you're talking about.
Anyway, I hope that this message will make you understand that you are wrong accusing him.
NeverDie
lol the guy who proxy gates or 4 gates every pvp says 6p is not very skilled. get real son
On September 28 2012 03:22 nSgNeverDie wrote: Dudes... let's me say something.
I'm NeverDie, a protoss GM on EU server. I met Bad_Habit on the ladder, and he won with an early pool. At this time i were looking for an NA account.
Firstly, i BM'd him (understand me, 6 pool is not really skill'd...), but he stayed mannered and we get friends, finally.
15 minutes after i had BM'd him, he even shared his NA account (FameToFlame) with me, regardless to my old rage, when I were not even knowing him. (no, I'm not the hacker.)
Today, it's one of my best friends, and i cant even imagine that's this guy is the hacker you're talking about.
Anyway, I hope that this message will make you understand that you are wrong accusing him.
NeverDie
lol the guy who proxy gates or 4 gates every pvp says 6p is not very skilled. get real son
That's wrong, i can also photon rush =)
In fact, i hate PvP, but PvZ & PvT are nice !
Oh, and i think that my gameplay dont have anything to do on this thread, please post only to make feedbacks on Bad_Habit's ban.
The case is closed, Bad_HabitALT didn't manage to find the evidence to overcome a number of damning points against him and in a PM decided to leave it be: "I'll distance from sc2."
b) hotkeys in the replay (257216) matching previous uploaded games of Bad_Habit: http://drop.sc/56357 http://drop.sc/54901 The other replays differ only marginally.
c) A number of cases of BM and claiming to hack (although those games were not deemed to be hacking games) For example: Avilo http://li358-26.members.linode.com/54898
I see no evidence that would suggest Habit is a hacker.
54898 - Habit playing FlametoFame's account. THERE IS NO HACKING IN THIS GAME. 70 APM. Hatch on 4.. 256811 - Hacker playing Protoss at 150 APM. Nexus hotkeyed to 5. 256902 - Hacker playing Zerg at 150 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 5. 257216 - Hacker playing Zerg at 150 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 1.
56357 - Habit playing Zeg. 80 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 4. 54901 - Habit playing Zerg. 80 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 4.
These replays provide no evidence of Habit hacking. We know that Habit once played on an account that is now used for hacking, but it is clear that these are different players. In no two games do Habit and the hacker use the same hotkey for their Nexus/Hatch and their APMs differ by a factor of 2.
Do we have any recent replays of Habit? Is there any evidence that he is even capable of playing at 150 APM?
I see this as well. Unless there is some new evidence showing habit is a hacker, I'm going to unban him.
On September 28 2012 03:22 nSgNeverDie wrote: Dudes... let's me say something.
I'm NeverDie, a protoss GM on EU server. I met Bad_Habit on the ladder, and he won with an early pool. At this time i were looking for an NA account.
Firstly, i BM'd him (understand me, 6 pool is not really skill'd...), but he stayed mannered and we get friends, finally.
15 minutes after i had BM'd him, he even shared his NA account (FameToFlame) with me, regardless to my old rage, when I were not even knowing him. (no, I'm not the hacker.)
Today, it's one of my best friends, and i cant even imagine that's this guy is the hacker you're talking about.
Anyway, I hope that this message will make you understand that you are wrong accusing him.
NeverDie
lol the guy who proxy gates or 4 gates every pvp says 6p is not very skilled. get real son
That's wrong, i can also photon rush =)
In fact, i hate PvP, but PvZ & PvT are nice !
Oh, and i think that my gameplay dont have anything to do on this thread, please post only to make feedbacks on Bad_Habit's ban.
you play all-in two base in pvz and 4 gates in pvt lol
The case is closed, Bad_HabitALT didn't manage to find the evidence to overcome a number of damning points against him and in a PM decided to leave it be: "I'll distance from sc2."
b) hotkeys in the replay (257216) matching previous uploaded games of Bad_Habit: http://drop.sc/56357 http://drop.sc/54901 The other replays differ only marginally.
c) A number of cases of BM and claiming to hack (although those games were not deemed to be hacking games) For example: Avilo http://li358-26.members.linode.com/54898
I see no evidence that would suggest Habit is a hacker.
54898 - Habit playing FlametoFame's account. THERE IS NO HACKING IN THIS GAME. 70 APM. Hatch on 4.. 256811 - Hacker playing Protoss at 150 APM. Nexus hotkeyed to 5. 256902 - Hacker playing Zerg at 150 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 5. 257216 - Hacker playing Zerg at 150 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 1.
56357 - Habit playing Zeg. 80 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 4. 54901 - Habit playing Zerg. 80 APM. Hatch hotkeyed to 4.
These replays provide no evidence of Habit hacking. We know that Habit once played on an account that is now used for hacking, but it is clear that these are different players. In no two games do Habit and the hacker use the same hotkey for their Nexus/Hatch and their APMs differ by a factor of 2.
Do we have any recent replays of Habit? Is there any evidence that he is even capable of playing at 150 APM?
I see this as well. Unless there is some new evidence showing habit is a hacker, I'm going to unban him.
also don't forget to remove the very end post of OP where it says something like "user was banned for maphacking"
the OP's icon says unbanned, but the end post still says banned.
Its very nice to see alot of ppl, believing in me, taking their time to check the replays for any proof against my case. Its only because of you people that i got unbanned and i am very thankful for that.
Yet i have bad news.
I still feel like this story hurt my reputation and my name alot. all my skype+icq is full of flames against me from people i used to like in the past. :/ Even tho it sadens me alot I will have take some time off from this community and from this game i used to love. i just dont think anything good can come out in the near future.
But if HotS just got released and you want to try out the new units but never reach them because of some fag 6pooling you every single game. Be certain the "King of Cheese" is back
Farewell, until those days.
For now i am off to a new project, you are more than welcome to follow on:
On September 30 2012 23:09 Bad_Habit wrote: Hello fellar Teamliquidans,
Its very nice to see alot of ppl, believing in me, taking their time to check the replays for any proof against my case. Its only because of you people that i got unbanned and i am very thankful for that.
Yet i have bad news.
I still feel like this story hurt my reputation and my name alot. all my skype+icq is full of flames against me from people i used to like in the past. :/ Even tho it sadens me alot I will have take some time off from this community and from this game i used to love. i just dont think anything good can come out in the near future.
But if HotS just got released and you want to try out the new units but never reach them because of some fag 6pooling you every single game. Be certain the "King of Cheese" is back
Farewell, until those days.
For now i am off to a new project, you are more than welcome to follow on:
keep it real and dont believe in the things the "terrorists" say.
Over and out. H to the abit.
Because anybody actually followed you in sc2? your replays all full of terrible harassment, whether you hack or not. I doubt you'll be missed, and i doubt any good was ever going to come from your play in the future anyway, you weren't exactly a good player.
On October 01 2012 00:01 MateShade wrote: Because anybody actually followed you in sc2? your replays all full of terrible harassment,
To be fair I made one. Presumably you make a second if you watched all these replays with terrible harassment. 47 pages of this thread suggest there may be a few more.
On October 01 2012 00:01 MateShade wrote: Because anybody actually followed you in sc2? your replays all full of terrible harassment,
To be fair I made one. Presumably you make a second if you watched all these replays with terrible harassment. 47 pages of this thread suggest there may be a few more.
Watching replays once doesn't make you a fan or a follower of a player.
It's funny how Starcraft players are by default attached to making sure the main base doesn't get somehow intruded on. In other RTS games it's easy peasy lemon squeezy to react to strategies like this.
Regardless of hacking or not, the playstyle demonstarated by you is just pure abuse. You exploit game mechanics, which you even admit in detail in your guide. I'm refering to the hold position and stacking "tricks". Workers have special pathing to avoid problems in saturated mineral patches, NOT to exploit them to win drone battles. Any player like this should be banned instantly based on replays.
On October 04 2012 19:01 Xanathar wrote: Regardless of hacking or not, the playstyle demonstarated by you is just pure abuse. You exploit game mechanics, which you even admit in detail in your guide. I'm refering to the hold position and stacking "tricks". Workers have special pathing to avoid problems in saturated mineral patches, NOT to exploit them to win drone battles. Any player like this should be banned instantly based on replays.
Players are allowed to use the game mechanics unless it gives them an unfair advantage, I don't see the problem with using the game engine to innovate strategies. I mean the worker mineral walk has been used since BW.
On October 04 2012 19:01 Xanathar wrote: Regardless of hacking or not, the playstyle demonstarated by you is just pure abuse. You exploit game mechanics, which you even admit in detail in your guide. I'm refering to the hold position and stacking "tricks". Workers have special pathing to avoid problems in saturated mineral patches, NOT to exploit them to win drone battles. Any player like this should be banned instantly based on replays.
nice troll there, if its not a troll, u are quite dumb, everyone uses this in the proscene to defend against 6 pool, its a viable mechanic, its like saying hold position lurkers should be banned
On October 04 2012 19:01 Xanathar wrote: Regardless of hacking or not, the playstyle demonstarated by you is just pure abuse. You exploit game mechanics, which you even admit in detail in your guide. I'm refering to the hold position and stacking "tricks". Workers have special pathing to avoid problems in saturated mineral patches, NOT to exploit them to win drone battles. Any player like this should be banned instantly based on replays.
You...are either trolling by making an accout just to say this, or you have no idea what you are talking about. He deserves ban ONLY IF he hacked. Playing to win means exploiting every single tricks available in game. Self-imposed restriction means absolutely nothing in competitive game like SC2.
I just noticed this thread for the first time. It's pretty funny that you're accused of maphacking and you're trying your best to deflect the accusations but whenever I've met you on ladder (3 different times across a few months,) you never hesitated to call me a maphacker simply because you build order lost into a 10 gate.
It's not a troll attempt, it's my personal, moral opinion. I didnt't say you cannot use theese mechanics in competitive play; I also very well know that they've always been used, be it BW, TfT or SCII. I just say it shouldn't be encouraged by this guide. Hold lurker was prohibited in several tournaments btw, as it was gamebreaking. BW had a dozen of theese exploits anyways.
I'd also like to point out, that theese are LIMITATIONS, not FEATURES. Workers behave like this because the developers couldn't fix some problems otherwise (pathing etc.). The goal wasn't to produce "exploit vs exploit" micro battles.
On October 04 2012 21:39 Xanathar wrote: It's not a troll attempt, it's my personal, moral opinion. I didnt't say you cannot use theese mechanics in competitive play; I also very well know that they've always been used, be it BW, TfT or SCII. I just say it shouldn't be encouraged by this guide. Hold lurker was prohibited in several tournaments btw, as it was gamebreaking. BW had a dozen of theese exploits anyways.
I'd also like to point out, that theese are LIMITATIONS, not FEATURES. Workers behave like this because the developers couldn't fix some problems otherwise (pathing etc.). The goal wasn't to produce "exploit vs exploit" micro battles.
American Philosophical Quarterly Vol. 49, Article 23: Thar, Xana; The Morality of Six Pooling in a Fast-Expanding Society About sums up what I got from your post.
On October 04 2012 18:24 Bad_Habit wrote: would any moderator mind to get rid of the "user was banned for maphacking" in my opener?
that is stupid. you ID was banned for maphacking and the warning is appropriately placed on the footer.
regardless if you think it was a friend, or a friend-of-a-friend, that was using your log in to act as you and openly maphack other players, the ID was under the one you claimed is yours on the main page. if you were able to come up with any sort of alibis or the actual people that played under your account, you would probably have a stronger case to defend yourself. but you dont, and everything youve said so far all just seems like excuses one would make after being caught maphacking. its not fair but this is how things work. maybe you really werent maphacking. doesn matter; you havent been able to prove anything otherwise and the bottom line is your BATTLE.NET ID was caught hacking multiple times.
and im still skeptical about "Sonder" vouching for you.
On September 28 2012 21:33 Sonder wrote: I'm sonder, grandmaster on EU. I've been playing against habbit several times when he was active. And i have no intentions of taking any part in this discussion, but after getting owned to his 6 pool, i looked the replays and saw no evidence of any maphack, just very good micro.
I dont really find the evidence against him being valid, since as mentioned before, there is also evidence that he is not a haphacker.
I dont think someone should be banned just because someone thinks he is a maphacker.
And then there is this post by our boy Sonder. His only other post...defending Bad_Habit from claims of stream cheating months ago. He is a very focused member of team Liquid and is only intrested in posting in this thread, specificly about Bad_Habit. All other threads are not worth his time. This personality might be representive of Bad_Habit's ego and guilt, trying to justify and defendant the core personality from attack. It is unclear though, as there are only two posts.
im glad the id fametoflame will stay banned even tho you got your tl acc unbanned
regardless if you think it was a friend, or a friend-of-a-friend, that was using your log in to act as you and openly maphack other players, the ID was under the one you claimed is yours on the main page. if you were able to come up with any sort of alibis or the actual people that played under your account, you would probably have a stronger case to defend yourself. but you dont, and everything youve said so far all just seems like excuses one would make after being caught maphacking. its not fair but this is how things work. maybe you really werent maphacking. doesn matter; you havent been able to prove anything otherwise and the bottom line is your BATTLE.NET ID was caught hacking multiple times.
i eather should be banned for maphacking, or i should not be banned and treated like everyone else. theres nothing in between.
also in case u didnt notice, admins talked me free. and they only forgot to get rid of the "user was banned for maphacking" and i wanned to remind them if they check this thread again (hopefully they do since i dont like the hackerimage)
to be clear, i dont mind retards like you to think hack, but i do mind normal ppl to think i hack.
i dont even mind beeing banned. as u might have noticed when i was calling u faggot a "retard". but i do mind the reason i get banned for.
regardless if you think it was a friend, or a friend-of-a-friend, that was using your log in to act as you and openly maphack other players, the ID was under the one you claimed is yours on the main page. if you were able to come up with any sort of alibis or the actual people that played under your account, you would probably have a stronger case to defend yourself. but you dont, and everything youve said so far all just seems like excuses one would make after being caught maphacking. its not fair but this is how things work. maybe you really werent maphacking. doesn matter; you havent been able to prove anything otherwise and the bottom line is your BATTLE.NET ID was caught hacking multiple times.
i eather should be banned for maphacking, or i should not be banned and treated like everyone else. theres nothing in between.
also in case u didnt notice, admins talked me free. and they only forgot to get rid of the "user was banned for maphacking" and i wanned to remind them if they check this thread again (hopefully they do since i dont like the hackerimage)
to be clear, i dont mind retards like you to think hack, but i do mind normal ppl to think i hack.
i dont even mind beeing banned. as u might have noticed when i was calling u faggot a "retard". but i do mind the reason i get banned for.
have a nice day
so you are fine with FametoFlam still going around openly maphacking everybody as long as its not you. gratz on getting ur tl account unbanned but i still see FametoFlame listed in the maphacking thread. i dont mind getting called a "retard" from someone that claimed to have been leaving a community after feeling like hes lost his "reputation" from being a cheesy all inner to a guy that lends out his account to dozens of people and loses track of who it mightve been maphacking on it. you are too easy to insult back. as long as FametoFlame is listed as a cheater im fine with that (as you can clearly see in the evidfence i posted). tbh this shitstorm couldnt have happened to a better personn than you, guy who enjoys seeing people rage by all inning every game.
I like how this began with a thread dedicated to 6 pooling, and now it became an accusation thread Good info on the 6 pool anyway, I wonder if people can still get to GM with 6 pool only.
On October 16 2012 02:24 SCInfestor wrote: I like how this began with a thread dedicated to 6 pooling, and now it became an accusation thread Good info on the 6 pool anyway, I wonder if people can still get to GM with 6 pool only.
On October 16 2012 02:24 SCInfestor wrote: I like how this began with a thread dedicated to 6 pooling, and now it became an accusation thread Good info on the 6 pool anyway, I wonder if people can still get to GM with 6 pool only.
Most likely not.
While it is still possible to win a large percentage of games, I would say that early-game BOs and worker control have evolved to the point that 6-pool isn't necessarily a winning build anymore.
I say this not as a cheese hater, I love doing early attacks and taking advantage of peoples unsafe builds. But, in my experience, 6 pool has really lost a lot of it's effectiveness with modern worker control tricks.
This is really interesting. I got to masters legit and I'm toss. I think I'm going to try to work my way up the ladder this week with these 6 pool tips.
On October 23 2012 01:44 ThatSweatyNerd wrote: This is really interesting. I got to masters legit and I'm toss. I think I'm going to try to work my way up the ladder this week with these 6 pool tips.
Every way to get to masters is legit. Just cause a tactic is cheesy or all-ini doet not mean it is wrong to do.
On October 23 2012 13:04 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I remember this thread; I'm not sure you could get to GM now adays by 6 pooling--much tougher than it was back then tbh.
did it 2 seasons ago and i guess we are going to find out next season (11/1/2012) again since i have a new cusomter. it wont be 100% sixpools but most games (specialy vs toss and zergs) will be early pools. In times that hacks reigns the world i dont feel confident enough to 6pool terrans (unless i know them but to get to that point i already should be gm)
^Ive seen terran hold 6pool with lowground CC first at least 3 or 4 times by this point - why would you ever do it against terran?
On other topic i love this thread, saw it a year ago but it represents what i love most about starcraft, depth in simplicity. There really is a whole lot more to even the simplest of strategies than most people realize.
That zvt against LiquidTLO...how would you respond if he floats away and send one worker to mine while the rest of his units attack your base? It seems like you can't beat a terran with drone rush that easily.
On March 31 2013 00:02 nomyx wrote: does this still work in hots? I'd image because of some of the maps
-Newkirk Distrct has pretty decent rush distances) -so does Korhal City and Star Station close positions -Neo Planet S -akilon flats
11rax 11gas reaper shits all over 6pool though! met a couple of 6poolers on the ladder and ive laughed as my reapers kite the lings and drones to eternity.
6pool should work exactly the same vs z and p though?
I like how the OP childishly censored "bad words", yet was fine throwing out "raped". Meh, for what it's worth glad this got bumped, makes me want to make some kids rage Pretty good tips too.
On March 31 2013 09:19 Areon wrote: I like how the OP childishly censored "bad words", yet was fine throwing out "raped". Meh, for what it's worth glad this got bumped, makes me want to make some kids rage Pretty good tips too.
On April 12 2013 15:43 Expir3d wrote: What are the viable maps for 6pooling in HotS?
I don't do this crap but I would say veto: -Whirlwind -Star Station -Korhal City
You can stick with Whirlwind and hope they all go CC/nexus/hatch first, but even then the rush distance is just huge. The other maps are all 2 player which is obviously more reliable, and they all have shorter distances, except for Korhal City and Star Station close positions but that's a 1/3 chance and is just unreliable. With 2 player maps you have a higher chance of being scouted, but I personally (Terran) don't SCV scout against zerg and lots more Protoss I think are opening gate first, which often doesn't probe scout.
Sorry for bumping this classic thread, but I wonder if there are hilarious variations of drone all ins now that we start with even more drones. Also a lot of people seem to nex/cc/hatch first which seems pretty weak against these all ins.
On November 16 2015 22:42 heishe wrote: Sorry for bumping this classic thread, but I wonder if there are hilarious variations of drone all ins now that we start with even more drones. Also a lot of people seem to nex/cc/hatch first which seems pretty weak against these all ins.
i just watched DRG beat ByuL on stream with a 12/13/14 (? didn't see the start of the game) pool + drone pull, leaving 4 drones at home + double spine, one in main and one at nat + rallied zerglings off 4 drone mining
On November 16 2015 22:42 heishe wrote: Sorry for bumping this classic thread, but I wonder if there are hilarious variations of drone all ins now that we start with even more drones. Also a lot of people seem to nex/cc/hatch first which seems pretty weak against these all ins.
i just watched DRG beat ByuL on stream with a 12/13/14 (? didn't see the start of the game) pool + drone pull, leaving 4 drones at home + double spine, one in main and one at nat + rallied zerglings off 4 drone mining
On November 16 2015 22:42 heishe wrote: Sorry for bumping this classic thread, but I wonder if there are hilarious variations of drone all ins now that we start with even more drones. Also a lot of people seem to nex/cc/hatch first which seems pretty weak against these all ins.
i just watched DRG beat ByuL on stream with a 12/13/14 (? didn't see the start of the game) pool + drone pull, leaving 4 drones at home + double spine, one in main and one at nat + rallied zerglings off 4 drone mining
12 pool 13 gas 14 overlord?
what i meant is that because i didn't see the start of the game i don't know if the pool was built on 12, 13 or 14, sorry if that was confusing. there was no gas involved
EPT
)
check out tournaments towards the en dof last year start of this year ... he 6 pooled really deep into a tourney.
Just hope the community won't be too inspired by this lolol :D
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