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On October 04 2011 15:15 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see /Agree, there's too much talk and not enough replays. So far there is only 1 (the one I posted on the first page). I'm mid-master, and I managed to hold off this exact build on the exact map in question by CatZ.
but they are talking about 6 pool vs FFE, and this thread is about Catz's 7pool which is a functionally different opener.
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I have seen catz (and destiny) do this many many times, it should leave zerg player always with economical advance when played correctly.
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in Shakuras Plateau, 6~8 pool openers always backfire for Zerg, cuz if Protoss has played correctly, he can fend off 6 pool at his natural with no damage on workers whatsoever.
fast pool should work if Protoss player scouts late... but yeah that's only depending on luck.
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On October 04 2011 22:35 redloser wrote:
in Shakuras Plateau, 6~8 pool openers always backfire for Zerg, cuz if Protoss has played correctly, he can fend off 6 pool at his natural with no damage on workers whatsoever.
fast pool should work if Protoss player scouts late... but yeah that's only depending on luck.
6 pool =! 7pool, and you have to
1. Scout the Zerg first, not second.
2. Cut a massive amount of probes as well to get three buildings up for a wall off, plus a cannon. Unless they completely cut probes at 13 or 14, the Zerg will also be able to kill one of said buildings that were walling off.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On October 04 2011 14:45 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? They complete the wall but you can always kill the third warped in building. And I mean pretty much always, unless they do something like 13 forge 13 gate 13 cannon 13 gate, completely cutting probes (or sneaking one in during the building build time). It rarely, rarely happens. The third building usually starts warping in about 5 seconds before you get there, maybe a little bit more, but the thing is the cannon isn't done yet so you can target it down and run past, or force him to make other buildings behind it. If the cannons are late, you can usually just target down the forge which has the least amount of health, in which you're usually ahead, but not always, I've just played enough games using that build to know the ins and outs. I guess 14-14-14 would probably work too, idk, but if they cut probes THAT long you're probably not that far behind anyways. You'll have probably 12 or 13 drones at that point by the time they put up the third gate (this is only off the top of my head, mind you), and a queen for injects. You also don't need to mine gas because they won't be attacking you anytime soon.
Protoss is fine with 13 probes if you 7 pool. Zerg won't have much drones either and protoss has a advantage in tech at that point as well as full energy on nexus.
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Hehe was just surfing TL and wikipal comes up go go irish starcraft.
In a more on-topic note it is a pretty ugly build order if you havent seen it before specialy at lower levels
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On October 04 2011 01:50 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 01:37 Ben... wrote:On October 04 2011 01:19 FairForever wrote:On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first. That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play) Yes, I 6pool. It hits just enough earlier that you can cause damage without cannons being up yet. My goal with this on both Shakuras and Tal'Darim Altar (It works on that map too, especially if they don't scout you first, though its window of effectiveness is smaller.) is never to kill them but to a) throw them off, and b) force them to build cannons in their main or a bunch of extra buildings. If they throw down a pylon and 2-3 cannons in their main, then the damage is done because I only built the 6 zerglings, and went straight into drone production. I've watched worker count on replays of these games and the Zerg usually ends up even with the Protoss, but they don't have 300-450 minerals of useless cannons sitting in their main or a bunch of extra buildings at their natural (If they panic and start building the great wall of Hongun. If that happens then you are in great shape). On Tal'Darim you can wall-off a 6-pool in time if the pylon scout guesses correctly and scouts the zerg first, so that's a risk right there. On shakuras you won't be able to wall off even if they scout it first, so it's much more solid on that map. Also I'm not sure why a Protoss player would build more than 1 cannon. 1 cannon in the mineral line plus probe micro is able to hold until the zealot comes out even if you stream lings and go all-in. Yes I agree. I tried to say that it is indeed a much riskier, more luck-based build on TA but my lack of clarity shines through yet again. That and it works better against nexus first. So yes, I agree that it is not nearly as effective on Tal'Darim. I've only had limited experience with it on Tal'Darim (I've probably done it 5 times. I normally 3 hatch before gas if I scout forge expands on that map for insanely fast drone saturation), where I used to do it all the time on Shakuras, and still do most of the time. It's a free win if they go nexus first most of the time, and otherwise it's an even game with them being thrown completely off and me sitting comfortably because I've practiced it a lot.
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On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game?
The only problem i can see having on shakuras with 6/7 pools would be scouting him in the last (2nd) position and waiting to throw your forge down until actually seeing it then. As long as you ~13 forge after not scouting him first position (you won't have time to get to the 2nd spot to check before you need to throw down forge!) you should be able to throw gate,cannon,gate and be safe.
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I have never really noticed this build but it's fascinating. I think I'm gonna give it a try one of these days just to see what happens. I have a feeling nobody in my grouping will expect something like that. Gold, here I come. Forever Silver no more.
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On October 05 2011 03:47 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 14:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? They complete the wall but you can always kill the third warped in building. And I mean pretty much always, unless they do something like 13 forge 13 gate 13 cannon 13 gate, completely cutting probes (or sneaking one in during the building build time). It rarely, rarely happens. The third building usually starts warping in about 5 seconds before you get there, maybe a little bit more, but the thing is the cannon isn't done yet so you can target it down and run past, or force him to make other buildings behind it. If the cannons are late, you can usually just target down the forge which has the least amount of health, in which you're usually ahead, but not always, I've just played enough games using that build to know the ins and outs. I guess 14-14-14 would probably work too, idk, but if they cut probes THAT long you're probably not that far behind anyways. You'll have probably 12 or 13 drones at that point by the time they put up the third gate (this is only off the top of my head, mind you), and a queen for injects. You also don't need to mine gas because they won't be attacking you anytime soon. Protoss is fine with 13 probes if you 7 pool. Zerg won't have much drones either and protoss has a advantage in tech at that point as well as full energy on nexus.
Only thing is, you have 9 drones to his 13 probes and you have a queen incoming. With injects, you'll catch up easily, albeit being slightly behind. However, there's also a very high probability you can do something like take down a forge and runby with only 2/6 lings dying, which catapults you far into the lead.
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On October 04 2011 15:15 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see /Agree, there's too much talk and not enough replays. So far there is only 1 (the one I posted on the first page). I'm mid-master, and I managed to hold off this exact build on the exact map in question by CatZ.
I added several 6pool v FFE replays and images in another thread, so we should probably take the discussion there because this thread discusses a different opener.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269992¤tpage=12#232
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Tested this out on Shakuras today and had a pretty good results (mid master). I analyzed the replay and found that delaying the toss's expansion plans was what really put me ahead. He had the lead in harvesters up until my attack, but had to cut probes to block in, which delayed his expo.
My early queen and hatchery enabled me to far outpace his worker production because he was only going off of one nexus for longer than he planned to be. Given that he spent minerals walling and cannoning while I expanded I ended up with 1.5x his harvester count quite quickly and then transitioned into a standard game.
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On October 05 2011 10:30 Shadrak wrote:
Tested this out on Shakuras today and had a pretty good results (mid master). I analyzed the replay and found that delaying the toss's expansion plans was what really put me ahead. He had the lead in harvesters up until my attack, but had to cut probes to block in, which delayed his expo.
My early queen and hatchery enabled me to far outpace his worker production because he was only going off of one nexus for longer than he planned to be. Given that he spent minerals walling and cannoning while I expanded I ended up with 1.5x his harvester count quite quickly and then transitioned into a standard game.
I've been opening with a variant of 10 pool lately in zvp and have had a similar experience lately. Simply denying the nexus first, or forcing one or two buildings before the nexus is enough of a win for me.
I haven't run the numbers except on comparing the 10 pool I do to 14/14 and 15h15p, but it feels like I'm in a good position without having to actually exert any pressure. It's also nice to not have to worry about an expansion block (as you do in 11/18) but that of course is the same with the 7 pool 16h.
I wonder which is comparatively more economical, but of course we'd need to know the protoss numbers for how much it costs for each opener (nexus first vs. forge/gate/cannon/nexus and then everything in between). I'd laugh if it was something very close like 50 minerals and protoss are taking this huge risk about it.
I've been asking around and no one seems to know actual numbers, just that it's (obviously) better.
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EPT
