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Catz's 7 pool on Shakuras Plateau (ZvP)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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wikipal
Profile Joined July 2011
Ireland18 Posts
October 03 2011 13:20 GMT
#1
I was watching Catz's stream last week, and while he was laddering he came up against the same protoss player twice in a row on Shakuras Plateau.
Catz's lost the first game after some gimmicky Void Ray play, and when he was matched to the same guy on the same map, he said:
Watch me rape this guy. He's never seen this before.

Catz proceeded to build one drone, put down a 7 pool, and attack the protoss player, and then transition into a 16 hatch.
I was amazed by the economic damage done by Catz by using this build, and decided to write a quick thread on it.

+ Show Spoiler +

Send O/L to Closest possible Spawning location.
7 Pool
Drone to 9
Your 9th drone and Pool should pop around the same time.
Double Extractor Trick, Build 6 lings.
12 O/L
@150 Minerals Build Queen
16 Expand.


This will do significant damage to an FFE. You can kill the initial pylon, supply block him, get him to pull his probes off the line, and kill 4-5. That's 300-350 minerals worth of damage and delay mining time significantly. Since this a semi-all-in, you are trying your best to keep the Toss player from mining as long as possible, so you can afford to lose all your initial lings.
With a Gate-way First player, while you are unlikely to encounter a Zealot by the time you attaci t is essential you kill the pylon in this Scenario, you do not want that zealot spawning, or you will be too far behind to win the game.
This will only probably work on Shakuras Plateau due to there being only two spawning locations. (Cross Map, and Double Top/Bottom)
This could also work on Xel'Naga Caverns, but I have not tested it yet.

Replays will be available ASAP.
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 13:59:49
October 03 2011 13:23 GMT
#2
This seems cool for Zerg players to start doing, but scary for Protoss players like me to face on ladder. Thanks for sharing!

+ Show Spoiler +
I was being sarcastic lol, this is so old!
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
TTneko
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia70 Posts
October 03 2011 13:24 GMT
#3
Hasn't this been done for about a year? nothing new here I don't think :S ?
Come watch my Grandmaster Zerg stream! // http://www.twitch.tv/ttneko
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
October 03 2011 13:27 GMT
#4
Nothing new, see Fail Pool in liquipedia,

The links to discussions have a lot of input from CatZ.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
October 03 2011 13:28 GMT
#5
You can just wall with forge and 2gates.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Antieque
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)79 Posts
October 03 2011 13:28 GMT
#6
Very old, nothing new here.
wikipal
Profile Joined July 2011
Ireland18 Posts
October 03 2011 13:33 GMT
#7
The Fail Pool, is actually different. Its 2 Lings, O/L 2 more lings. The difference in the build is the double extractor, which allows you to get the zerglings just that bit quicker. And while I did search for this on liquidipedia, I thought it deserved its own thread due to it being slightly different and more structured than the Fail Pool.
TTneko
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia70 Posts
October 03 2011 13:33 GMT
#8
No it doesn't
Come watch my Grandmaster Zerg stream! // http://www.twitch.tv/ttneko
BearDK
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark101 Posts
October 03 2011 13:35 GMT
#9
if you scout it, it should be quite easy to get that wall up at the natural in time.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 13:37:43
October 03 2011 13:37 GMT
#10
On October 03 2011 22:33 wikipal wrote:
The Fail Pool, is actually different. Its 2 Lings, O/L 2 more lings. The difference in the build is the double extractor, which allows you to get the zerglings just that bit quicker. And while I did search for this on liquidipedia, I thought it deserved its own thread due to it being slightly different and more structured than the Fail Pool.


I put a section in there saying you can vary it up however you want: 9 drones, double extractor trick into 6 lings or 8 drones, ovie, then 8 lings are both very good options. The 9 drone is a bit more economical, the 8 drone has a bit more punch.

On the other side, there is what I call "The Hero Drone." I always send one because he can block buildings to leave a door open for your lings and generally be annoying, but it is very costly to do so ~100 minerals. On 2 player maps, the drone is optional, but on maps like Shakuras or LT, you almost always want to send one because it also scouts for you.

The article is not the only way to do things, it's just an example.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
kAra
Profile Joined September 2004
Germany1355 Posts
October 03 2011 13:39 GMT
#11
should be defended easily with a 12 forge + wall of afterwards, no?
mada mada dane
Antieque
Profile Joined January 2011
Korea (South)79 Posts
October 03 2011 13:44 GMT
#12
You guys are missing the point, the build isn't a 7 pool all in, it's just a 7 pool opener. This means that the even if the Protoss scouts it, they will have to react with a wall off, which requires them to cut probe production. This allows the zerg to catch up on economy because they are droning after the 6 initial lings anyway. For the Protoss to know if it's not a 6 pool all in, they just simply count the larva on your hatchery, if it's laying around until the pool pops, it's an all in, if the larva isn't laying around and turning into drones, it's likely not a big commitment. It can also be scouted by checking for the fast 2nd overlord which usually is made right after the zerg player puts down the 7 pool, of course thats if the zerg player is planning to commit to the fast pool.
-Dustin-
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States718 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 13:50:27
October 03 2011 13:49 GMT
#13
Wait I'm confused as hell about all these early pool subjects now. When Toss talk about 6Pool they say its OP on a FFE, but 7Pool is "easily held off" could someone explain the difference? I understand the Lings will be slightly delayed.

Seems solid may try it out on ladder as I like to do an early Pool vs Toss as it can give me an advantage/straight up win the game, but at a risk, if I fail to do any damage its pretty much game. I like the risk vs reward of a early pool. I see everyone saying its old, I understand that but I've never seen the exact BO for it as I don't look at Liquipedia much.

I also second what Jermstuddog is saying I love to send a scouting Drone just to block buildings harass the Toss and eventually do a little tanking for my Lings.
mage36
Profile Joined May 2011
415 Posts
October 03 2011 13:53 GMT
#14
how is this different from other 7 pools? I'm pretty sure 6 pool can be held off by FFE, so why can't a 7 pool be? Granted you have to pull some probes, but you'd be ahead in probe count just so long as you don't lose a whole lot of them.
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
October 03 2011 13:58 GMT
#15
Early pool plays vs Protoss are quite strong and may be played into economic variants. Still, this build is as old as heck, so I'm not sure it warrants a new thread.

Bora Pain minha porra!
Chemist391
Profile Joined October 2010
United States366 Posts
October 03 2011 14:40 GMT
#16
CatZ did this to me on Shakuras at MLG Anaheim. I took no economic damage from the 7pool and then proceeded to lose after making extremely silly decisions. Also, CatZ is far better than I am.

FFE can easily defend this.

Replay
Gotmog
Profile Joined October 2010
Serbia899 Posts
October 03 2011 14:47 GMT
#17
I use 7pool quite often, when i remember on some maps in ZvP. Just making 6 lings, and proceeding to expand/drone up non stop, gass/queen all normal stuff. The point is to stop the horrible lead that protoss gets when he is allowed nexus 1st, or nexus before canon, or forge FE in general....

If he opens normally...well dunno, never happened yet. You are behind, can't really do any dmg.
"When you play the game of drones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground"
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
October 03 2011 14:47 GMT
#18
On October 03 2011 22:44 DemoraliZ wrote:
For the Protoss to know if it's not a 6 pool all in, they just simply count the larva on your hatchery, if it's laying around until the pool pops, it's an all in, if the larva isn't laying around and turning into drones, it's likely not a big commitment.


This is not true and only going to steer people wrong.

The big commitment is in getting the pool so early, not the lings. The difference between making 2 lings and 6 lings after making a pool at 7 isn't really that much. You might as well make the 6 since the 2 will be largely ineffective. Pooling larva is negligible.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
October 03 2011 14:51 GMT
#19
I mean, you'll only do damage if you go nexus first. You can wall off easily with 3 builds b4 lings come
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
BroboCop
Profile Joined December 2010
United States373 Posts
October 03 2011 14:57 GMT
#20
this build was created by catz within the first couple months of the game. on steppes of war, a notoriously broken map which zerg couldn't possibly win on catz created this strategy. It lead to protoss to saying steppes was broken for zerg because since the rush distance was so quick there was absolutely nothing the protoss could do and honestly was a very strong build. Moreover, at MLG dallas 2010, protoss would ban steppes of war vs catz because they knew he would do it. As for vs gateway openings, it is possible to come out even or in a slightly favorable position, however, it is very difficult and requries very high apm (efficient) which will only be able to be executed by grandmaster and very few high masters players. Moreover, if a protoss goes forge,gate,gate b4 cannon, the zerg will be able to kill the forge and get in meanwhile droning back home.
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
October 03 2011 15:01 GMT
#21
I don't think it's necessary to have a guide, but maybe this could serve as a discussion?

I've been 6/7 pooled on 4-player maps without locked spawn positions like Shakuras, and it seems like Zerg should 6 pooling because after the initial 6 lings, they can just drone and catch up after killing a pylon and forge and forcing lost mining time.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
October 03 2011 16:05 GMT
#22
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
October 03 2011 16:19 GMT
#23
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
October 03 2011 16:37 GMT
#24
On October 04 2011 01:19 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Yes, I 6pool. It hits just enough earlier that you can cause damage without cannons being up yet. My goal with this on both Shakuras and Tal'Darim Altar (It works on that map too, especially if they don't scout you first, though its window of effectiveness is smaller.) is never to kill them but to a) throw them off, and b) force them to build cannons in their main or a bunch of extra buildings. If they throw down a pylon and 2-3 cannons in their main, then the damage is done because I only built the 6 zerglings, and went straight into drone production. I've watched worker count on replays of these games and the Zerg usually ends up even with the Protoss, but they don't have 300-450 minerals of useless cannons sitting in their main or a bunch of extra buildings at their natural (If they panic and start building the great wall of Hongun. If that happens then you are in great shape).
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10321 Posts
October 03 2011 16:41 GMT
#25
this is just a 7 pool no? except with the specific followup of a 16 hatch

anwyays, why does he double extractor trick? If you mine the close minerals you can actually build an overlord and still have 150 minerals when it pops to make lings
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
October 03 2011 16:50 GMT
#26
On October 04 2011 01:37 Ben... wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:19 FairForever wrote:
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Yes, I 6pool. It hits just enough earlier that you can cause damage without cannons being up yet. My goal with this on both Shakuras and Tal'Darim Altar (It works on that map too, especially if they don't scout you first, though its window of effectiveness is smaller.) is never to kill them but to a) throw them off, and b) force them to build cannons in their main or a bunch of extra buildings. If they throw down a pylon and 2-3 cannons in their main, then the damage is done because I only built the 6 zerglings, and went straight into drone production. I've watched worker count on replays of these games and the Zerg usually ends up even with the Protoss, but they don't have 300-450 minerals of useless cannons sitting in their main or a bunch of extra buildings at their natural (If they panic and start building the great wall of Hongun. If that happens then you are in great shape).


On Tal'Darim you can wall-off a 6-pool in time if the pylon scout guesses correctly and scouts the zerg first, so that's a risk right there. On shakuras you won't be able to wall off even if they scout it first, so it's much more solid on that map.

Also I'm not sure why a Protoss player would build more than 1 cannon. 1 cannon in the mineral line plus probe micro is able to hold until the zealot comes out even if you stream lings and go all-in.
raaaiiiii
Profile Joined January 2011
United States89 Posts
October 03 2011 16:55 GMT
#27
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
October 03 2011 16:58 GMT
#28
I can easily see you lose to this if protoss just goes WhiteRa style and then he smashes the lings and counterattacks with mass zealots on 2 gateways.
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
October 03 2011 17:03 GMT
#29
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
October 03 2011 17:19 GMT
#30
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.
Bora Pain minha porra!
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 17:29:39
October 03 2011 17:27 GMT
#31
i'm talking only about shakuras where you only need to scout 2 bases that are fairly close together, and there's an easy walloff. He didnt specify what map, the other ladder maps with same easy walloffs are larger maps that you have to scout 3 spawns.

if someone really is doubtful I wouldn't mind playing a quick game where you 6/7 pool vs me on Shakuras, just PM me
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Chemist391
Profile Joined October 2010
United States366 Posts
October 03 2011 18:25 GMT
#32
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


This. Go to page 1 and watch the replay I posted of myself vs CatZ from MLG Anaheim.

Yes, I lost the game, but I lost for reasons completely ancillary to the 7pool.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
October 03 2011 18:31 GMT
#33
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes
GypsyBeast
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada630 Posts
October 03 2011 18:40 GMT
#34
dose this warrant its own thread? This has been around for ever and is super unreliable.
Ya? Well ill BM you harder! Another win in 10 seconds flat! -Rainbow Dash playing SC2.
raaaiiiii
Profile Joined January 2011
United States89 Posts
October 03 2011 20:42 GMT
#35
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


Taldarim and Antiga are the two maps I can recall watching him play on.
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 20:45:54
October 03 2011 20:45 GMT
#36
On October 04 2011 03:31 roymarthyup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes


What are you talking about? It's not easy to counter it at all if you don't scout it. On TDA LE it's impossible to wall off before lings get there... well, that's not true. You can wall off, but you won't have a cannon up. I think you can do it if you go something like 10pylon 10forge but that's not standard, and that is a hit to your econ if you aren't facing an early pool.

PS: Also on MLG Metal/Shattered/Xel'Naga, you have that depot down so it's even more risky.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 21:01:54
October 03 2011 20:57 GMT
#37
On October 04 2011 05:45 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 03:31 roymarthyup wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes


What are you talking about? It's not easy to counter it at all if you don't scout it. On TDA LE it's impossible to wall off before lings get there... well, that's not true. You can wall off, but you won't have a cannon up. I think you can do it if you go something like 10pylon 10forge but that's not standard, and that is a hit to your econ if you aren't facing an early pool.

PS: Also on MLG Metal/Shattered/Xel'Naga, you have that depot down so it's even more risky.



1) on TDA LE, it is possible to wall off before lings get there

2) if point 1 is true, im right

3) if you think point 1 is not true, feel free to pm me your info and we can play a game sometime

4) im talking about with 14forge. again, yes its possible. if you want to see how, feel free to pm me

5) this is extremely easy to stop. if point1 is true, then that means 6pool pretty much should never do any damage to a toss who is doing a safe FFE with a 14forge. and because point1 is true, it means everything i have said in this post is true

6) FFE is bad on xelnaga / metal. but for other maps feel free to pm me if you want to see how 6pool is a instant loss to a toss doing a safe FFE




regardless, 99.999% of tosses on the ladder do not know how to do a safe FFE, which involes scouting at 9 and at 12 with a 14forge. so feel free to keep beating tosses on the ladder with 6pool until they learn how to do the safe FFE
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
October 03 2011 23:14 GMT
#38
On October 04 2011 05:57 roymarthyup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 05:45 FairForever wrote:
On October 04 2011 03:31 roymarthyup wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes


What are you talking about? It's not easy to counter it at all if you don't scout it. On TDA LE it's impossible to wall off before lings get there... well, that's not true. You can wall off, but you won't have a cannon up. I think you can do it if you go something like 10pylon 10forge but that's not standard, and that is a hit to your econ if you aren't facing an early pool.

PS: Also on MLG Metal/Shattered/Xel'Naga, you have that depot down so it's even more risky.



1) on TDA LE, it is possible to wall off before lings get there

2) if point 1 is true, im right

3) if you think point 1 is not true, feel free to pm me your info and we can play a game sometime

4) im talking about with 14forge. again, yes its possible. if you want to see how, feel free to pm me

5) this is extremely easy to stop. if point1 is true, then that means 6pool pretty much should never do any damage to a toss who is doing a safe FFE with a 14forge. and because point1 is true, it means everything i have said in this post is true

6) FFE is bad on xelnaga / metal. but for other maps feel free to pm me if you want to see how 6pool is a instant loss to a toss doing a safe FFE




regardless, 99.999% of tosses on the ladder do not know how to do a safe FFE, which involes scouting at 9 and at 12 with a 14forge. so feel free to keep beating tosses on the ladder with 6pool until they learn how to do the safe FFE


You know what would be helpful is if somebody actually tested what maps you can or cannot wall-off in time and in what situations (i.e. possible if scouted first w/ pylon probe, but not with follow-up pylon + forge probes).
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
October 03 2011 23:27 GMT
#39
On October 03 2011 22:49 -Dustin- wrote:
Wait I'm confused as hell about all these early pool subjects now. When Toss talk about 6Pool they say its OP on a FFE, but 7Pool is "easily held off" could someone explain the difference? I understand the Lings will be slightly delayed.

Seems solid may try it out on ladder as I like to do an early Pool vs Toss as it can give me an advantage/straight up win the game, but at a risk, if I fail to do any damage its pretty much game. I like the risk vs reward of a early pool. I see everyone saying its old, I understand that but I've never seen the exact BO for it as I don't look at Liquipedia much.

I also second what Jermstuddog is saying I love to send a scouting Drone just to block buildings harass the Toss and eventually do a little tanking for my Lings.



9 seconds is a long time in the first 3 minutes of the game.
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Jemesatui
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia94 Posts
October 03 2011 23:46 GMT
#40
i dont even bother trying to wall. to stressful. scout early pool, pylon behind mineral line, and cannon inside mineral line. chrono probes, go get an icecream, call your friends ask them how their weekend was, carry on with your 10 probe advantage.
yer you might lose the first forge and pylon, but who cares he's 10 drones behind....
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
October 04 2011 00:00 GMT
#41
I actually use this build on Taldarim altar. You have to drone scout too but it catches people off guard sometimes. Its a cheese no doubt, but if you just drone behind it you actually catch up in workers pretty damn quick, and the usual response is for the protoss to turtle into a DT or VR. I just do a gasless expand after, usually at 18 food (16 drones + queen), and go into big muta/ling macro, producing about 1 spine crawler per minute as well.

Works great vs greedy protoss, and honestly on these maps sometimes they nexus first and its auto win. Although it's counter intuitive, this build works great on big maps because it's hard for your opponent to scout it, and because the distance lets you drone up pretty quickly afterwards without fear of pressure.

Shouldn't be your standard build but if you get a bunch of protoss opponents in a row (or the same one over and over) and want to keep it interesting, definitely try this build.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 00:02:34
October 04 2011 00:01 GMT
#42
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.
Flestiraef
Profile Joined September 2010
United States36 Posts
October 04 2011 00:23 GMT
#43
I've had a hard time getting back into the ladder after 6 months of not playing, read this strategy today at work and decided to give it a try. So far, 2 0 against Terran. The 2nd t walled off in time aster scouting, but after watching replays, after a minute, with the early queen, your drone count equals the T, and another minute later your up by 3. This snowballs well against a someone who expands and you just take a quick 3rd. Im only in gold after taking the long break and trying to play random, but it felt smooth, and I felt I could tune it to make it even smoother.
Flestiraef
Profile Joined September 2010
United States36 Posts
October 04 2011 00:25 GMT
#44
Guess I should add I went full droning after the initial 6 lings.
Temporarykid
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada362 Posts
October 04 2011 00:40 GMT
#45
I don't think this is very new, I saw a thread recently that said 6pool is the best economic opener vs P on taldarim. Regardless of whether catz has been doing it for a few months or what-not, I've been doing it ever since I saw that thread.
ㅈㅈ
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 04 2011 00:40 GMT
#46
On October 04 2011 09:25 Flestiraef wrote:
Guess I should add I went full droning after the initial 6 lings.


You're supposed to, otherwise you 6pool.
Qxz
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada189 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 00:43:47
October 04 2011 00:40 GMT
#47
I do this often on Shakuras because FFE is very common and by sending the overlord horizontally across, it'll be there in time for your lings to go directly to the good base.

If the protoss reacts correctly, they are slightly ahead. They are not far ahead because the 7 pool always causes at least indirect damage:
- They are forced to cut probes to complete the wall asap
- They must considerably delay the nexus
- They are not proceeding with their build as planned

A lot of protosses including in Master league, even with proper initial defense, will follow it up with a lot of silly decisions, like trying to cannon you (stupid, you have lings out already), rush dts or something else retarded because they've been thrown off their game. Basically you get a lot of free wins vs bad players. But against a player who stays calm and just resumes his normal build after holding the rush, the 7 pool just sets you behind.

A lot of people don't understand that the Catz 7-pool is not an all-in. It's an extremely agressive opener that aims to cause at least indirect damage and throw the opponent off his game.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 04 2011 00:45 GMT
#48
On October 04 2011 09:40 Qxz wrote:
I do this often on Shakuras because FFE is very common and by sending the overlord horizontally across, it'll be there in time for your lings to go directly to the good base.

If the protoss reacts correctly, they are slightly ahead. They are not far ahead because the 7 pool always causes at least indirect damage:
- They are forced to cut probes to complete the wall asap
- They must considerably delay the nexus
- They are not proceeding with their build as planned

A lot of protosses including in Master league, even with proper initial defense, will follow it up with a lot of silly decisions, like trying to cannon you (stupid, you have lings out already), rush dts or something else retarded because they've been thrown off their game. Basically you get a lot of free wins vs bad players. But against a player who stays calm and just resumes his normal build after holding the rush, the 7 pool just sets you behind.

A lot of people don't understand that the Catz 7-pool is not an all-in. It's an extremely agressive opener that aims to cause at least indirect damage and throw the opponent off his game.


I would say it's an all-in because you must cause some damage, if they don't lose any probes, lose minimal mining time, etc. I'd say you're considerably far behind. Only thing is, it's really easy to cause "damage," as you've said.
Qxz
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada189 Posts
October 04 2011 00:51 GMT
#49
On October 04 2011 09:45 FabledIntegral wrote:
I would say it's an all-in because you must cause some damage, if they don't lose any probes, lose minimal mining time, etc. I'd say you're considerably far behind. Only thing is, it's really easy to cause "damage," as you've said.
Any investment that doesn't pay off sets you behind, that doesn't make everything an all-in. An all-in is a move that must end the game immediately, i.e. if it succeeds you win, if it fails you lose, right there. Like drone rushing.

Achilles306
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada84 Posts
October 04 2011 00:55 GMT
#50
The problem with this build is that if protoss reacts properly zerg is behind. The hatch is up later than if you went for a normal opener. Protoss can either wall is front, if he has enough time, or put 1 cannon down in his mineral line while he makes a gateway and does a normal build from there.

This also assumes the protoss doesn't chrono out a few zealots to pressure you. Your economy will be a lot smaller if you need to make a round of lings instead of drones. Assuming protoss went forge first, he won't have gas making this zealot pressure more viable.

Don't base your strategy on your opponent making a mistake IMO.
KhAmun
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1005 Posts
October 04 2011 01:13 GMT
#51
This is certainly one of the builds that a large part of it's effectiveness is due to throwing your opponent off their build, but effective none the less.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 01:20:05
October 04 2011 01:18 GMT
#52
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
zeOllie
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Australia486 Posts
October 04 2011 01:47 GMT
#53
This is very old. Lots of people have been using this =P
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 03:00:33
October 04 2011 02:59 GMT
#54
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?



hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool


i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each


ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
October 04 2011 03:04 GMT
#55
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?


The only thing you don't understand is that there are some really bad/dumb players even high up on the ladder ^^
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 03:27:21
October 04 2011 03:26 GMT
#56
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?

You can't wall off in time if you do a greedy FFE. I don't see how you could. July usually does this against Toss he knows are going to do a greedy FFE because you can't wall in. The proper response is to just let your forge die, build a cannon in your mineral line, and continue from there.

I thought this was known already?

But against the safe FFE this doesn't work.
I love crazymoving
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
October 04 2011 04:37 GMT
#57
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?


I'd be happy to play with it if you want, but in my experience, a 6-pool will generally make it there in time to deal enough damage, but a 7 pool won't.

Those 3-5 seconds extra really makes the difference on that specific map.

That being said, I rarely do a 6 OR 7 pool on Shakuras just because while it CAN work, it doesn't feel very powerful. I much prefer going for a 3-hatch or muta build on that map.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
October 04 2011 04:51 GMT
#58
This is a cheese I've been using for ages...
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 05:49:18
October 04 2011 05:45 GMT
#59
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?


They complete the wall but you can always kill the third warped in building. And I mean pretty much always, unless they do something like 13 forge 13 gate 13 cannon 13 gate, completely cutting probes (or sneaking one in during the building build time). It rarely, rarely happens. The third building usually starts warping in about 5 seconds before you get there, maybe a little bit more, but the thing is the cannon isn't done yet so you can target it down and run past, or force him to make other buildings behind it.

If the cannons are late, you can usually just target down the forge which has the least amount of health, in which you're usually ahead, but not always, I've just played enough games using that build to know the ins and outs.

I guess 14-14-14 would probably work too, idk, but if they cut probes THAT long you're probably not that far behind anyways. You'll have probably 12 or 13 drones at that point by the time they put up the third gate (this is only off the top of my head, mind you), and a queen for injects. You also don't need to mine gas because they won't be attacking you anytime soon.
Chemist391
Profile Joined October 2010
United States366 Posts
October 04 2011 06:15 GMT
#60
On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?



hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool


i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each


ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see


/Agree, there's too much talk and not enough replays. So far there is only 1 (the one I posted on the first page).

I'm mid-master, and I managed to hold off this exact build on the exact map in question by CatZ.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
October 04 2011 13:20 GMT
#61
On October 04 2011 15:15 Chemist391 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?



hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool


i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each


ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see


/Agree, there's too much talk and not enough replays. So far there is only 1 (the one I posted on the first page).

I'm mid-master, and I managed to hold off this exact build on the exact map in question by CatZ.


but they are talking about 6 pool vs FFE, and this thread is about Catz's 7pool which is a functionally different opener.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
FinBenton
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland870 Posts
October 04 2011 13:30 GMT
#62
I have seen catz (and destiny) do this many many times, it should leave zerg player always with economical advance when played correctly.
redloser
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1721 Posts
October 04 2011 13:35 GMT
#63
in Shakuras Plateau, 6~8 pool openers always backfire for Zerg, cuz if Protoss has played correctly, he can fend off 6 pool at his natural with no damage on workers whatsoever.

fast pool should work if Protoss player scouts late... but yeah that's only depending on luck.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 04 2011 18:30 GMT
#64
On October 04 2011 22:35 redloser wrote:
in Shakuras Plateau, 6~8 pool openers always backfire for Zerg, cuz if Protoss has played correctly, he can fend off 6 pool at his natural with no damage on workers whatsoever.

fast pool should work if Protoss player scouts late... but yeah that's only depending on luck.


6 pool =! 7pool, and you have to

1. Scout the Zerg first, not second.
2. Cut a massive amount of probes as well to get three buildings up for a wall off, plus a cannon. Unless they completely cut probes at 13 or 14, the Zerg will also be able to kill one of said buildings that were walling off.
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 18:47:48
October 04 2011 18:47 GMT
#65
On October 04 2011 14:45 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?


They complete the wall but you can always kill the third warped in building. And I mean pretty much always, unless they do something like 13 forge 13 gate 13 cannon 13 gate, completely cutting probes (or sneaking one in during the building build time). It rarely, rarely happens. The third building usually starts warping in about 5 seconds before you get there, maybe a little bit more, but the thing is the cannon isn't done yet so you can target it down and run past, or force him to make other buildings behind it.

If the cannons are late, you can usually just target down the forge which has the least amount of health, in which you're usually ahead, but not always, I've just played enough games using that build to know the ins and outs.

I guess 14-14-14 would probably work too, idk, but if they cut probes THAT long you're probably not that far behind anyways. You'll have probably 12 or 13 drones at that point by the time they put up the third gate (this is only off the top of my head, mind you), and a queen for injects. You also don't need to mine gas because they won't be attacking you anytime soon.

Protoss is fine with 13 probes if you 7 pool. Zerg won't have much drones either and protoss has a advantage in tech at that point as well as full energy on nexus.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
LightTemplar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland481 Posts
October 04 2011 19:20 GMT
#66
Hehe was just surfing TL and wikipal comes up go go irish starcraft.

In a more on-topic note it is a pretty ugly build order if you havent seen it before specialy at lower levels
"Thoughts are always there, the mind can't stop" - Grubby
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-04 19:43:58
October 04 2011 19:43 GMT
#67
On October 04 2011 01:50 Skyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:37 Ben... wrote:
On October 04 2011 01:19 FairForever wrote:
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Yes, I 6pool. It hits just enough earlier that you can cause damage without cannons being up yet. My goal with this on both Shakuras and Tal'Darim Altar (It works on that map too, especially if they don't scout you first, though its window of effectiveness is smaller.) is never to kill them but to a) throw them off, and b) force them to build cannons in their main or a bunch of extra buildings. If they throw down a pylon and 2-3 cannons in their main, then the damage is done because I only built the 6 zerglings, and went straight into drone production. I've watched worker count on replays of these games and the Zerg usually ends up even with the Protoss, but they don't have 300-450 minerals of useless cannons sitting in their main or a bunch of extra buildings at their natural (If they panic and start building the great wall of Hongun. If that happens then you are in great shape).


On Tal'Darim you can wall-off a 6-pool in time if the pylon scout guesses correctly and scouts the zerg first, so that's a risk right there. On shakuras you won't be able to wall off even if they scout it first, so it's much more solid on that map.

Also I'm not sure why a Protoss player would build more than 1 cannon. 1 cannon in the mineral line plus probe micro is able to hold until the zealot comes out even if you stream lings and go all-in.
Yes I agree. I tried to say that it is indeed a much riskier, more luck-based build on TA but my lack of clarity shines through yet again. That and it works better against nexus first. So yes, I agree that it is not nearly as effective on Tal'Darim. I've only had limited experience with it on Tal'Darim (I've probably done it 5 times. I normally 3 hatch before gas if I scout forge expands on that map for insanely fast drone saturation), where I used to do it all the time on Shakuras, and still do most of the time. It's a free win if they go nexus first most of the time, and otherwise it's an even game with them being thrown completely off and me sitting comfortably because I've practiced it a lot.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Complete
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1864 Posts
October 04 2011 19:54 GMT
#68
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?


The only problem i can see having on shakuras with 6/7 pools would be scouting him in the last (2nd) position and waiting to throw your forge down until actually seeing it then. As long as you ~13 forge after not scouting him first position (you won't have time to get to the 2nd spot to check before you need to throw down forge!) you should be able to throw gate,cannon,gate and be safe.
Creegz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada354 Posts
October 04 2011 19:55 GMT
#69
I have never really noticed this build but it's fascinating. I think I'm gonna give it a try one of these days just to see what happens. I have a feeling nobody in my grouping will expect something like that. Gold, here I come. Forever Silver no more.
Who is this guy? ^
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 00:36:01
October 04 2011 20:16 GMT
#70
On October 05 2011 03:47 T.O.P. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 14:45 FabledIntegral wrote:
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?


They complete the wall but you can always kill the third warped in building. And I mean pretty much always, unless they do something like 13 forge 13 gate 13 cannon 13 gate, completely cutting probes (or sneaking one in during the building build time). It rarely, rarely happens. The third building usually starts warping in about 5 seconds before you get there, maybe a little bit more, but the thing is the cannon isn't done yet so you can target it down and run past, or force him to make other buildings behind it.

If the cannons are late, you can usually just target down the forge which has the least amount of health, in which you're usually ahead, but not always, I've just played enough games using that build to know the ins and outs.

I guess 14-14-14 would probably work too, idk, but if they cut probes THAT long you're probably not that far behind anyways. You'll have probably 12 or 13 drones at that point by the time they put up the third gate (this is only off the top of my head, mind you), and a queen for injects. You also don't need to mine gas because they won't be attacking you anytime soon.

Protoss is fine with 13 probes if you 7 pool. Zerg won't have much drones either and protoss has a advantage in tech at that point as well as full energy on nexus.


Only thing is, you have 9 drones to his 13 probes and you have a queen incoming. With injects, you'll catch up easily, albeit being slightly behind. However, there's also a very high probability you can do something like take down a forge and runby with only 2/6 lings dying, which catapults you far into the lead.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
October 05 2011 00:28 GMT
#71
On October 04 2011 15:15 Chemist391 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.

It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead.

i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate

mb you can try it on me in a custom game?



hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool


i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each


ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see


/Agree, there's too much talk and not enough replays. So far there is only 1 (the one I posted on the first page).

I'm mid-master, and I managed to hold off this exact build on the exact map in question by CatZ.


I added several 6pool v FFE replays and images in another thread, so we should probably take the discussion there because this thread discusses a different opener.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269992&currentpage=12#232
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-05 01:31:17
October 05 2011 01:30 GMT
#72
Tested this out on Shakuras today and had a pretty good results (mid master). I analyzed the replay and found that delaying the toss's expansion plans was what really put me ahead. He had the lead in harvesters up until my attack, but had to cut probes to block in, which delayed his expo.

My early queen and hatchery enabled me to far outpace his worker production because he was only going off of one nexus for longer than he planned to be. Given that he spent minerals walling and cannoning while I expanded I ended up with 1.5x his harvester count quite quickly and then transitioned into a standard game.
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
October 05 2011 23:41 GMT
#73
On October 05 2011 10:30 Shadrak wrote:
Tested this out on Shakuras today and had a pretty good results (mid master). I analyzed the replay and found that delaying the toss's expansion plans was what really put me ahead. He had the lead in harvesters up until my attack, but had to cut probes to block in, which delayed his expo.

My early queen and hatchery enabled me to far outpace his worker production because he was only going off of one nexus for longer than he planned to be. Given that he spent minerals walling and cannoning while I expanded I ended up with 1.5x his harvester count quite quickly and then transitioned into a standard game.


I've been opening with a variant of 10 pool lately in zvp and have had a similar experience lately. Simply denying the nexus first, or forcing one or two buildings before the nexus is enough of a win for me.

I haven't run the numbers except on comparing the 10 pool I do to 14/14 and 15h15p, but it feels like I'm in a good position without having to actually exert any pressure. It's also nice to not have to worry about an expansion block (as you do in 11/18) but that of course is the same with the 7 pool 16h.

I wonder which is comparatively more economical, but of course we'd need to know the protoss numbers for how much it costs for each opener (nexus first vs. forge/gate/cannon/nexus and then everything in between). I'd laugh if it was something very close like 50 minerals and protoss are taking this huge risk about it.

I've been asking around and no one seems to know actual numbers, just that it's (obviously) better.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
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