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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Works great vs greedy protoss, and honestly on these maps sometimes they nexus first and its auto win. Although it's counter intuitive, this build works great on big maps because it's hard for your opponent to scout it, and because the distance lets you drone up pretty quickly afterwards without fear of pressure. Shouldn't be your standard build but if you get a bunch of protoss opponents in a row (or the same one over and over) and want to keep it interesting, definitely try this build. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. | ||
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Flestiraef
United States36 Posts
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Flestiraef
United States36 Posts
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Temporarykid
Canada362 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 04 2011 09:25 Flestiraef wrote: Guess I should add I went full droning after the initial 6 lings. You're supposed to, otherwise you 6pool. | ||
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Qxz
Canada189 Posts
If the protoss reacts correctly, they are slightly ahead. They are not far ahead because the 7 pool always causes at least indirect damage: - They are forced to cut probes to complete the wall asap - They must considerably delay the nexus - They are not proceeding with their build as planned A lot of protosses including in Master league, even with proper initial defense, will follow it up with a lot of silly decisions, like trying to cannon you (stupid, you have lings out already), rush dts or something else retarded because they've been thrown off their game. Basically you get a lot of free wins vs bad players. But against a player who stays calm and just resumes his normal build after holding the rush, the 7 pool just sets you behind. A lot of people don't understand that the Catz 7-pool is not an all-in. It's an extremely agressive opener that aims to cause at least indirect damage and throw the opponent off his game. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 04 2011 09:40 Qxz wrote: I do this often on Shakuras because FFE is very common and by sending the overlord horizontally across, it'll be there in time for your lings to go directly to the good base. If the protoss reacts correctly, they are slightly ahead. They are not far ahead because the 7 pool always causes at least indirect damage: - They are forced to cut probes to complete the wall asap - They must considerably delay the nexus - They are not proceeding with their build as planned A lot of protosses including in Master league, even with proper initial defense, will follow it up with a lot of silly decisions, like trying to cannon you (stupid, you have lings out already), rush dts or something else retarded because they've been thrown off their game. Basically you get a lot of free wins vs bad players. But against a player who stays calm and just resumes his normal build after holding the rush, the 7 pool just sets you behind. A lot of people don't understand that the Catz 7-pool is not an all-in. It's an extremely agressive opener that aims to cause at least indirect damage and throw the opponent off his game. I would say it's an all-in because you must cause some damage, if they don't lose any probes, lose minimal mining time, etc. I'd say you're considerably far behind. Only thing is, it's really easy to cause "damage," as you've said. | ||
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Qxz
Canada189 Posts
On October 04 2011 09:45 FabledIntegral wrote: Any investment that doesn't pay off sets you behind, that doesn't make everything an all-in. An all-in is a move that must end the game immediately, i.e. if it succeeds you win, if it fails you lose, right there. Like drone rushing.I would say it's an all-in because you must cause some damage, if they don't lose any probes, lose minimal mining time, etc. I'd say you're considerably far behind. Only thing is, it's really easy to cause "damage," as you've said. | ||
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Achilles306
Canada84 Posts
This also assumes the protoss doesn't chrono out a few zealots to pressure you. Your economy will be a lot smaller if you need to make a round of lings instead of drones. Assuming protoss went forge first, he won't have gas making this zealot pressure more viable. Don't base your strategy on your opponent making a mistake IMO. | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote: I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout. It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? | ||
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zeOllie
Australia486 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote: i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote: i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? The only thing you don't understand is that there are some really bad/dumb players even high up on the ladder ^^ | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote: i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? You can't wall off in time if you do a greedy FFE. I don't see how you could. July usually does this against Toss he knows are going to do a greedy FFE because you can't wall in. The proper response is to just let your forge die, build a cannon in your mineral line, and continue from there. I thought this was known already? But against the safe FFE this doesn't work. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote: i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? I'd be happy to play with it if you want, but in my experience, a 6-pool will generally make it there in time to deal enough damage, but a 7 pool won't. Those 3-5 seconds extra really makes the difference on that specific map. That being said, I rarely do a 6 OR 7 pool on Shakuras just because while it CAN work, it doesn't feel very powerful. I much prefer going for a 3-hatch or muta build on that map. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote: i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? They complete the wall but you can always kill the third warped in building. And I mean pretty much always, unless they do something like 13 forge 13 gate 13 cannon 13 gate, completely cutting probes (or sneaking one in during the building build time). It rarely, rarely happens. The third building usually starts warping in about 5 seconds before you get there, maybe a little bit more, but the thing is the cannon isn't done yet so you can target it down and run past, or force him to make other buildings behind it. If the cannons are late, you can usually just target down the forge which has the least amount of health, in which you're usually ahead, but not always, I've just played enough games using that build to know the ins and outs. I guess 14-14-14 would probably work too, idk, but if they cut probes THAT long you're probably not that far behind anyways. You'll have probably 12 or 13 drones at that point by the time they put up the third gate (this is only off the top of my head, mind you), and a queen for injects. You also don't need to mine gas because they won't be attacking you anytime soon. | ||
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Chemist391
United States364 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote: hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see /Agree, there's too much talk and not enough replays. So far there is only 1 (the one I posted on the first page). I'm mid-master, and I managed to hold off this exact build on the exact map in question by CatZ. | ||
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