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Catz's 7 pool on Shakuras Plateau (ZvP) - Page 2

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mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
October 03 2011 15:01 GMT
#21
I don't think it's necessary to have a guide, but maybe this could serve as a discussion?

I've been 6/7 pooled on 4-player maps without locked spawn positions like Shakuras, and it seems like Zerg should 6 pooling because after the initial 6 lings, they can just drone and catch up after killing a pylon and forge and forcing lost mining time.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
October 03 2011 16:05 GMT
#22
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
October 03 2011 16:19 GMT
#23
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
October 03 2011 16:37 GMT
#24
On October 04 2011 01:19 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Yes, I 6pool. It hits just enough earlier that you can cause damage without cannons being up yet. My goal with this on both Shakuras and Tal'Darim Altar (It works on that map too, especially if they don't scout you first, though its window of effectiveness is smaller.) is never to kill them but to a) throw them off, and b) force them to build cannons in their main or a bunch of extra buildings. If they throw down a pylon and 2-3 cannons in their main, then the damage is done because I only built the 6 zerglings, and went straight into drone production. I've watched worker count on replays of these games and the Zerg usually ends up even with the Protoss, but they don't have 300-450 minerals of useless cannons sitting in their main or a bunch of extra buildings at their natural (If they panic and start building the great wall of Hongun. If that happens then you are in great shape).
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10321 Posts
October 03 2011 16:41 GMT
#25
this is just a 7 pool no? except with the specific followup of a 16 hatch

anwyays, why does he double extractor trick? If you mine the close minerals you can actually build an overlord and still have 150 minerals when it pops to make lings
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
October 03 2011 16:50 GMT
#26
On October 04 2011 01:37 Ben... wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:19 FairForever wrote:
On October 04 2011 01:05 Alpina wrote:
Just tried this build and at the exact time my 6 lings came his cannon warped in, so it appeared totally useless push. Even if I would made those 6 lings like few seconds sooner still I don't see this working vs. toss who does not go nexus first.


That's why you 6pool, 6pool will get you there in time before cannon warps in (unless it's something like a 10 forge which is bad vs standard play)
Yes, I 6pool. It hits just enough earlier that you can cause damage without cannons being up yet. My goal with this on both Shakuras and Tal'Darim Altar (It works on that map too, especially if they don't scout you first, though its window of effectiveness is smaller.) is never to kill them but to a) throw them off, and b) force them to build cannons in their main or a bunch of extra buildings. If they throw down a pylon and 2-3 cannons in their main, then the damage is done because I only built the 6 zerglings, and went straight into drone production. I've watched worker count on replays of these games and the Zerg usually ends up even with the Protoss, but they don't have 300-450 minerals of useless cannons sitting in their main or a bunch of extra buildings at their natural (If they panic and start building the great wall of Hongun. If that happens then you are in great shape).


On Tal'Darim you can wall-off a 6-pool in time if the pylon scout guesses correctly and scouts the zerg first, so that's a risk right there. On shakuras you won't be able to wall off even if they scout it first, so it's much more solid on that map.

Also I'm not sure why a Protoss player would build more than 1 cannon. 1 cannon in the mineral line plus probe micro is able to hold until the zealot comes out even if you stream lings and go all-in.
raaaiiiii
Profile Joined January 2011
United States89 Posts
October 03 2011 16:55 GMT
#27
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
October 03 2011 16:58 GMT
#28
I can easily see you lose to this if protoss just goes WhiteRa style and then he smashes the lings and counterattacks with mass zealots on 2 gateways.
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
October 03 2011 17:03 GMT
#29
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
October 03 2011 17:19 GMT
#30
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.
Bora Pain minha porra!
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 17:29:39
October 03 2011 17:27 GMT
#31
i'm talking only about shakuras where you only need to scout 2 bases that are fairly close together, and there's an easy walloff. He didnt specify what map, the other ladder maps with same easy walloffs are larger maps that you have to scout 3 spawns.

if someone really is doubtful I wouldn't mind playing a quick game where you 6/7 pool vs me on Shakuras, just PM me
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Chemist391
Profile Joined October 2010
United States366 Posts
October 03 2011 18:25 GMT
#32
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


This. Go to page 1 and watch the replay I posted of myself vs CatZ from MLG Anaheim.

Yes, I lost the game, but I lost for reasons completely ancillary to the 7pool.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
October 03 2011 18:31 GMT
#33
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes
GypsyBeast
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada630 Posts
October 03 2011 18:40 GMT
#34
dose this warrant its own thread? This has been around for ever and is super unreliable.
Ya? Well ill BM you harder! Another win in 10 seconds flat! -Rainbow Dash playing SC2.
raaaiiiii
Profile Joined January 2011
United States89 Posts
October 03 2011 20:42 GMT
#35
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


Taldarim and Antiga are the two maps I can recall watching him play on.
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 20:45:54
October 03 2011 20:45 GMT
#36
On October 04 2011 03:31 roymarthyup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes


What are you talking about? It's not easy to counter it at all if you don't scout it. On TDA LE it's impossible to wall off before lings get there... well, that's not true. You can wall off, but you won't have a cannon up. I think you can do it if you go something like 10pylon 10forge but that's not standard, and that is a hit to your econ if you aren't facing an early pool.

PS: Also on MLG Metal/Shattered/Xel'Naga, you have that depot down so it's even more risky.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-03 21:01:54
October 03 2011 20:57 GMT
#37
On October 04 2011 05:45 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 03:31 roymarthyup wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes


What are you talking about? It's not easy to counter it at all if you don't scout it. On TDA LE it's impossible to wall off before lings get there... well, that's not true. You can wall off, but you won't have a cannon up. I think you can do it if you go something like 10pylon 10forge but that's not standard, and that is a hit to your econ if you aren't facing an early pool.

PS: Also on MLG Metal/Shattered/Xel'Naga, you have that depot down so it's even more risky.



1) on TDA LE, it is possible to wall off before lings get there

2) if point 1 is true, im right

3) if you think point 1 is not true, feel free to pm me your info and we can play a game sometime

4) im talking about with 14forge. again, yes its possible. if you want to see how, feel free to pm me

5) this is extremely easy to stop. if point1 is true, then that means 6pool pretty much should never do any damage to a toss who is doing a safe FFE with a 14forge. and because point1 is true, it means everything i have said in this post is true

6) FFE is bad on xelnaga / metal. but for other maps feel free to pm me if you want to see how 6pool is a instant loss to a toss doing a safe FFE




regardless, 99.999% of tosses on the ladder do not know how to do a safe FFE, which involes scouting at 9 and at 12 with a 14forge. so feel free to keep beating tosses on the ladder with 6pool until they learn how to do the safe FFE
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
October 03 2011 23:14 GMT
#38
On October 04 2011 05:57 roymarthyup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2011 05:45 FairForever wrote:
On October 04 2011 03:31 roymarthyup wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:19 Sbrubbles wrote:
On October 04 2011 02:03 Zelniq wrote:
On Shakuras Plateau, if the protoss player scouts on 9 after pylon, and places his buildings correctly, he should take zero damage from a 6 or 7 pool. What I mean by 0 damage is he should have to pull no extra probes, lose no buildings, lose no units. Just 9 pylon, 13 forge, 14 gate, 14 cannon, 14 gate. the Forge + 2 gates completely walls off the natural's ramp in time before any lings can reach it, and the cannon will finish at around the same time the lings arrive. The protoss can even cancel the 2nd gateway before it finishes and rebuild with a cybernetics core if he wants.

Protoss is then ahead in every way, only having to cut probes for a short time, and this is at 14 rather than 6 or 7 which obviously hurts the zerg's econ more than it hurt the protoss's.

The only reason it has a chance to be somewhat effective on shakuras is if they 1: Don't know how to properly place their first pylon to make a proper wall (probably most common among many ladder protosses), or don't scout after 9 pylon.


On October 04 2011 01:55 raaaiiiii wrote:
I was watching SlayerS_YugiOh stream last night and he was 7 pooling every Protoss he came across... He managed to get in the base every time, forcing a cannon in the main mineral line instead of at the ramp. He got his expo at 18, always before the Protoss.


I love how these threads that discuss early pools always have credible sources saying opposite things.


nah, every time someone wins with a 6-7pool against FFE, the toss is just bad

many zergs here are saying they are winning with this build. that just means there are MANY bad tosses out there who dont know how to defend this.

even top korean grandmaster tosses are dying to this. it just means they dont know how to counter it

but this is very easy to counter. you can fully wall off before the lings arrive, and take no damage

but 99.99% of tosses on the ladder dont know how to counter this so freely use it until that fact changes


What are you talking about? It's not easy to counter it at all if you don't scout it. On TDA LE it's impossible to wall off before lings get there... well, that's not true. You can wall off, but you won't have a cannon up. I think you can do it if you go something like 10pylon 10forge but that's not standard, and that is a hit to your econ if you aren't facing an early pool.

PS: Also on MLG Metal/Shattered/Xel'Naga, you have that depot down so it's even more risky.



1) on TDA LE, it is possible to wall off before lings get there

2) if point 1 is true, im right

3) if you think point 1 is not true, feel free to pm me your info and we can play a game sometime

4) im talking about with 14forge. again, yes its possible. if you want to see how, feel free to pm me

5) this is extremely easy to stop. if point1 is true, then that means 6pool pretty much should never do any damage to a toss who is doing a safe FFE with a 14forge. and because point1 is true, it means everything i have said in this post is true

6) FFE is bad on xelnaga / metal. but for other maps feel free to pm me if you want to see how 6pool is a instant loss to a toss doing a safe FFE




regardless, 99.999% of tosses on the ladder do not know how to do a safe FFE, which involes scouting at 9 and at 12 with a 14forge. so feel free to keep beating tosses on the ladder with 6pool until they learn how to do the safe FFE


You know what would be helpful is if somebody actually tested what maps you can or cannot wall-off in time and in what situations (i.e. possible if scouted first w/ pylon probe, but not with follow-up pylon + forge probes).
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
October 03 2011 23:27 GMT
#39
On October 03 2011 22:49 -Dustin- wrote:
Wait I'm confused as hell about all these early pool subjects now. When Toss talk about 6Pool they say its OP on a FFE, but 7Pool is "easily held off" could someone explain the difference? I understand the Lings will be slightly delayed.

Seems solid may try it out on ladder as I like to do an early Pool vs Toss as it can give me an advantage/straight up win the game, but at a risk, if I fail to do any damage its pretty much game. I like the risk vs reward of a early pool. I see everyone saying its old, I understand that but I've never seen the exact BO for it as I don't look at Liquipedia much.

I also second what Jermstuddog is saying I love to send a scouting Drone just to block buildings harass the Toss and eventually do a little tanking for my Lings.



9 seconds is a long time in the first 3 minutes of the game.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
Jemesatui
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia94 Posts
October 03 2011 23:46 GMT
#40
i dont even bother trying to wall. to stressful. scout early pool, pylon behind mineral line, and cannon inside mineral line. chrono probes, go get an icecream, call your friends ask them how their weekend was, carry on with your 10 probe advantage.
yer you might lose the first forge and pylon, but who cares he's 10 drones behind....
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