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Hello,
Recently I found a way to stop the 1-1-1 which I believe is by far the best response from what I have seen - Phoenixes and DTs
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
Opening Build:
I open with a very standard build, I only branch into the Phoenix DT build after scouting with my first stalker.
-Pylon
-Gate (scout with Probe)
-Gas
-Pylon
-Core
-Gas
(first 4 chronos on Nexus)
-Stalker (I chrono this) + Warpgate tech
(scout with Stalker)
-2 Sentries from your Gateway after the Stalker
When my Stalker scout reaches his base, if I think it is a 1-1-1 this is how I respond:
-Nexus at nat
-Stargate
-Twilight Council
-Gateway
-3rd and 4th Gas to line up with when your Nexus finishes (you need LOTS of gas for this build)
-Start producing Phoenixes when SG finishes
-Dark Shrine as soon as TC finishes (and you have enough gas, may have to halt Phoenix production)
-Keep making Phoenixes
Executing the Strategy:
Once you have the tech you need, you need to scout with your first Phoenix as soon as possible to make sure it is still in fact a 1-1-1 all in. If he is still doing this, these are the things you need to be doing to stop him
-Set up a proxy Pylon somewhere closer to his base, if you can, also add a Pylon on the low ground that can warp into his base (with vision from your Phoenixes).
-Constantly fly around with your Phoenixes and look for opportunities to take shots at his Raven or Banshees. Raven is the priority because you want to eliminate all detection for your DTs.
-Don't be afraid to right click onto their Raven if they are moving out and you really need it dead, the Phoenixes will kill the Raven before the Marines kill your Phoenixes. If he uses a PDD, just back off, it is no problem because PDDs are immoble and if he wants to attack you he will have to leave it eventually.
-Have DTs scattered on the map, whenever his army is on the field without a Raven, send DTs in 1 by 1 to kill units and force scans. Also send DTs to the main whenever you have to opening to do so.
If you follow these ideas the 1-1-1 should be shut down pretty easily, I have not lost to a 1-1-1 besides a couple games where I made such major mistakes that what build I used was mostly irrelevent.
What to do if he does not all in you with his 1-1-1:
There are basically two possibilities here:
1. He never intended to all in from the start, he already had a CC started when you scout him with your Phoenix.
2. He saw what you are doing and as a response decided to expand instead of going all in.
In the case of 1: You can basically just play it out as a standard game from here, it is an advantageous position for P because you have Phoenixes and DTs for harass. I personally have been going teching to Colossus in this circumstance, but whatever mid game style you feel comfortable with should be fine.
In the case of 2: By the time he leaves his main to take his natural, he is behind economically because you took your natural much more quickly. I usually just end it with a Chargelot Archon 2 base push.
Keep in mind that you still need to try to kill Ravens whenever possible to keep him in his base.
Replays:
I only started saving my replays recently so I don't have that many, but here are a few that demonstrate this build:
PvT phantaxx vs Runek - Standard 1-1-1 all in.
PvT phantaxx vs vileHasHe - Expand variation of the 1-1-1.
PvT phantaxx vs VPCry - Technically not a 1-1-1, 2 Starports instead of a Fact with techlab, plays out identically to a regular 1-1-1.
My macro in these games is actually really sloppy, I'm still getting used to the build, but the great thing is that I can crush 1-1-1's even with 1.5k minerals banked.
If you want to see this build in action more I stream sometimes at www.twitch.tv/phantaxx
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On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs.
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Very interesting build idea. I especially like how the DT's put an enormous pressure on the T and time becomes your ally as opposed to an encamped T. I do have a concern with cloaked banshees, however. What do you do if the 1-1-1 uses cloak or if you mis-read the opening and it was just a cloak banshee open?
Keep up the experimentation!
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On September 29 2011 06:50 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs.
If I am remembering the same game, MC used blink stalkers to try to take out the Raven, which are less mobile and it is much more difficult to take out a raven with them. I've tried blink stalkers as well, it doesn't work, but Phoenixes are a different thing. I've practiced this against T's who know what I am doing, and they cannot keep their ravens alive. I've even seen T's make 2 Ravens and I can still snipe them with Phoenixes.
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On September 29 2011 06:56 jrdn wrote:
Very interesting build idea. I especially like how the DT's put an enormous pressure on the T and time becomes your ally as opposed to an encamped T. I do have a concern with cloaked banshees, however. What do you do if the 1-1-1 uses cloak or if you mis-read the opening and it was just a cloak banshee open?
Keep up the experimentation!
So far I haven't run into cloaked banshees because T's always cancel cloak when they see a Phoenix, if necessary I can work a robo into the build if it turns into a problem, if they spend 200/200 on cloak that is also less gas for Ravens. Also, I can usually kill banshees before they can even leave their base if I just fly around with my Phoenixes.
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On September 29 2011 06:59 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:50 QTIP. wrote:On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs. If I am remembering the same game, MC used blink stalkers to try to take out the Raven, which are less mobile and it is much more difficult to take out a raven with them. I've tried blink stalkers as well, it doesn't work, but Phoenixes are a different thing. I've practiced this against T's who know what I am doing, and they cannot keep their ravens alive. I've even seen T's make 2 Ravens and I can still snipe them with Phoenixes.
He snipes the first Raven with a Phoenix as it comes out of the Starport. Puma builds another one. He tries again with Blink stalkers, but fails. I'm impressed that you can snipe 2 Ravens with Marine clouds underneath. Not to mention the emergency PDD that can be deployed to nullify your Phoenix.
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Wouldn't a 3-rax just roll over you during your "expo + 2 tech paths" transition? You can't actually confirm the 1/1/1 until your first phoenix reaches his base.
I'm also of the opinion you can hold a 1/1/1 (just have to get the right mix of zealot/phoenix/VR based on what you scout) with a 1-base stargate opener which doesn't leave you susceptible to early rax pressure, and if you confirm an expo you can still get back in the game with good phoenix/VR harassment.
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You can confirm a 1-1-1 opening by doing this:
13 Gate
Zealot (cb)
Core
Zealot (cb)
Stalker (cb)
It's possible to build the first zealot, and the core right as the gateway finishes. You need to probe scout after 2nd pylon to get the minerals.
You only need to know where to send rally the zealots, don't need to get into his base with probe.
iSTime wrote a thread about 1gate TC openings, which uses this 3x cb Zeal Zeal Stalker opening to force the terran to show his hand.
I have been using this specific opening in my PvT's, and going DT shrine -> Nexus when I see bio play. Had been going blink + robo vs 1-1-1 openings.
Will try your response to 1-1-1 - really feels like you're hoping the terran screws up with raven/marine positioning though.
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I feel if they skip ravens, and banshee and go with a demuslim esque (only player I see do it) mass marine and tank with no siege, or late siege, with scv pull and a scan or two can almost 1a over your army, due to the spread of dt/phoenix.
However, depending on the timing it hits, if it's a later variation of 1-1-1, especially with cloak or more banshees than 1-2, then you will easily win with simple control.
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On September 29 2011 08:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I feel if they skip ravens, and banshee and go with a demuslim esque (only player I see do it) mass marine and tank with no siege, or late siege, with scv pull and a scan or two can almost 1a over your army, due to the spread of dt/phoenix.
However, depending on the timing it hits, if it's a later variation of 1-1-1, especially with cloak or more banshees than 1-2, then you will easily win with simple control.
DT opening crushes any 1 base push that doesn't have a raven. You need to stagger your DT's so that he can't just spend 3 scans when he's at your base.
Most DT Expo builds warp in 3 dt's upon completion - poke at his ramp with a probe, or one of the dt's to see if he has a turret ready or not.
If he does, you just sit outside his base with 1 DT, while controlling towers, and checking map for hidden SCV scouts.
Obviously this doesn't work on retarded map positions like Metal/Shattered close pos.
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On September 29 2011 08:06 Trusty wrote:
You can confirm a 1-1-1 opening by doing this:
13 Gate
Zealot (cb)
Core
Zealot (cb)
Stalker (cb)
It's possible to build the first zealot, and the core right as the gateway finishes. You need to probe scout after 2nd pylon to get the minerals.
You only need to know where to send rally the zealots, don't need to get into his base with probe.
iSTime wrote a thread about 1gate TC openings, which uses this 3x cb Zeal Zeal Stalker opening to force the terran to show his hand.
I have been using this specific opening in my PvT's, and going DT shrine -> Nexus when I see bio play. Had been going blink + robo vs 1-1-1 openings.
Will try your response to 1-1-1 - really feels like you're hoping the terran screws up with raven/marine positioning though.
How exactly does a 2 zealot + stalker push force his hand? Wouldn't a bunker with SCVs repairing easily thwart it?
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On September 29 2011 08:15 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I feel if they skip ravens, and banshee and go with a demuslim esque (only player I see do it) mass marine and tank with no siege, or late siege, with scv pull and a scan or two can almost 1a over your army, due to the spread of dt/phoenix.
However, depending on the timing it hits, if it's a later variation of 1-1-1, especially with cloak or more banshees than 1-2, then you will easily win with simple control. DT opening crushes any 1 base push that doesn't have a raven. You need to stagger your DT's so that he can't just spend 3 scans when he's at your base. Most DT Expo builds warp in 3 dt's upon completion.
...It depends on the time your 1-1-1 hits, and how many kills the banshee gets/ how many stalkers he is forced to make...
Not blowing smoke out of my ass. I don't know if he counted it, but I'm one of the 2 side in his 13-2.. Although, a minute later of a push and my ass was grass in the game we did play. Not to mention, I'm positive he'd take me easily in a best of any series.
The really awesome part, if it's the same build I faced, is the drop prism usage in my main as you are semi forced to pull every SCV and all in. If he stops it, he wins 100% due to the inability to detect DTs, and if you get a raven, the ability to keep it alive against that many phoenix.
If you place tanks at all badly with no coverage, your tanks are lifted, and your push is over and your game is lost.
Very very strong anti 1-1-1 especially with proper scouting and execution of his build.
But, now I see I didn't even get this build. Just a transition into it, and I STILL barely won after he went robo tech. Should be a testament to the strength of it. To go robo, and still get phoenix and DT out is insane, especially because he FEs.
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On September 29 2011 08:17 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:06 Trusty wrote:
You can confirm a 1-1-1 opening by doing this:
13 Gate
Zealot (cb)
Core
Zealot (cb)
Stalker (cb)
It's possible to build the first zealot, and the core right as the gateway finishes. You need to probe scout after 2nd pylon to get the minerals.
You only need to know where to send rally the zealots, don't need to get into his base with probe.
iSTime wrote a thread about 1gate TC openings, which uses this 3x cb Zeal Zeal Stalker opening to force the terran to show his hand.
I have been using this specific opening in my PvT's, and going DT shrine -> Nexus when I see bio play. Had been going blink + robo vs 1-1-1 openings.
Will try your response to 1-1-1 - really feels like you're hoping the terran screws up with raven/marine positioning though. How exactly does a 2 zealot + stalker push force his hand? Wouldn't a bunker with SCVs repairing easily thwart it?
First zealot arrives before a bunker can be completed. You're trading economy (CB's on probes) for really really fast units.
I should have been more specific, you rally the units to his ramp, you don't wait for all 3 units before poking. Just before your first zealot is about to arrive, send your probe scout up the ramp to see whether is worth while waiting for zealot #2 or not, and usually it's not worth waiting.
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Has this build been tested against a turret push? As in, terran scouts what protoss is doing, throws down an ebay, and otherwise executes the 111 normally if a bit delayed. Cover your army with a scan and ravens until you get close enough to start a turret push. And then you've effectively nullified both techs with static defense.
I haven't tested it, so maybe it's not even a "thing" that can reasonably happen, but I am interested in knowing if this was considered.
I like the build btw, I'll be trying it out.
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I do this, but with a different opening: the Naniwa PvT. I do it in high diamond and it works wonders against 1-1-1 styles.
# 9 Pylon
# 13 Gateway, scout with probe
# 14 Assimilator
# 16 Pylon (start saving up Nexus energy after 3rd chrono)
# 18 Cybernetics Core
# 19 Zealot
# 22 Gateway
# @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate, chrono this as much as possible
# @100 minerals: Pylon, then Sentry as soon as you can afford it
# @100 gas: 2x Stalker
# 32 Pylon (proxy somewhere close to the Terran base)
# @100% Stalkers: walk all units toward Terran base
# 34 Nexus, convert Gateways into Warpgates
# Warp in 2 Stalkers at the proxy
# Attack the Terran player's base and build 2nd Assimilator
If they're going with a standard 1-1-1, you're showing up at their base with what looks like a 4gate army (1 zealot, 1 sentry, 4 stalkers), and that usually freaks them out enough for them to pull scvs or throw down bunkers. If they're rushing their 1-1-1 out, this push hits them at a really bad time; they'll usually have a tank and some marines, but often no siege tech. If you won't make it up his ramp (i.e. he went bio/has more than 1 bunker), you're at least sitting at the bottom of their ramp waiting to throw down a forcefield if he moves out.
I think this opening comes in really handy by delaying their push long enough to tech up to dts and phoenixes off 2 bases. I throw down my TC and SG while I'm applying pressure with my 6 units.
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On September 29 2011 10:40 hejakev wrote:I do this, but with a different opening: the Naniwa PvT. I do it in high diamond and it works wonders against 1-1-1 styles. # 9 Pylon # 13 Gateway, scout with probe # 14 Assimilator # 16 Pylon (start saving up Nexus energy after 3rd chrono) # 18 Cybernetics Core # 19 Zealot # 22 Gateway # @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate, chrono this as much as possible # @100 minerals: Pylon, then Sentry as soon as you can afford it # @100 gas: 2x Stalker # 32 Pylon (proxy somewhere close to the Terran base) # @100% Stalkers: walk all units toward Terran base # 34 Nexus, convert Gateways into Warpgates # Warp in 2 Stalkers at the proxy # Attack the Terran player's base and build 2nd Assimilator If they're going with a standard 1-1-1, you're showing up at their base with what looks like a 4gate army (1 zealot, 1 sentry, 4 stalkers), and that usually freaks them out enough for them to pull scvs or throw down bunkers. If they're rushing their 1-1-1 out, this push hits them at a really bad time; they'll usually have a tank and some marines, but often no siege tech. If you won't make it up his ramp (i.e. he went bio/has more than 1 bunker), you're at least sitting at the bottom of their ramp waiting to throw down a forcefield if he moves out. I think this opening comes in really handy by delaying their push long enough to tech up to dts and phoenixes off 2 bases. I throw down my TC and SG while I'm applying pressure with my 6 units.
The 2Gate nexus (popularised by chitaPrime and Naniwa) has gone out of favour - as people realise that you can 1gate FE safely, and that the Naniwa build is too slow to do anything vs gasless FE.
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dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes.
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On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes.
he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great
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I am currently 13-2 against 1-1-1's, all variations and transitions from it as well using this method; my only losses being from poor execution on my part, not a fault of the build.
PvT phantaxx vs Runek - Standard 1-1-1 all in.
So, I'm only a Platinum random player, so I play TvP approximately once every 9 games and I don't have time to play a lot, but I move out at 7:30 with 2 banshees, 2 tanks with seige or 3 without (depending on whether I suspect blink) 1 hellion if I controlled well enough to keep it alive after scouting (usually not because I am terrible) and as many marines as I can make out of 1 reactored barracks. At 7:30 in this "standard" game, the protoss had 1 stalker and 2 sentries and the shrine, the robo, and the stargate were not close to done.
Terran saw the shrine finish AND the stargate with the banshee at about 8:30 before he even left his base and didn't start an engineering bay until about a minute after that. He knew there was a phoenix AND dts and he still led his army with the raven so it could easily be picked off and made another banshee, for some reason. Then, once his marines that were being rallied to Protoss natural started dying to DT, he didn't pull any scvs to repair depots or make a double wall to buy time. He arrived at Protoss natural well after the TEN minute mark, and Protoss still hadn't broken into Terran base with DTs.
Do high level players generally wait that long to move out? Why? And what would you do about it with this build that takes THREE different tech paths (one of them tier 3) and an expansion?
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On September 29 2011 12:00 U_G_L_Y wrote:I am currently 13-2 against 1-1-1's, all variations and transitions from it as well using this method; my only losses being from poor execution on my part, not a fault of the build.PvT phantaxx vs Runek - Standard 1-1-1 all in. So, I'm only a Platinum random player, so I play TvP approximately once every 9 games and I don't have time to play a lot, but I move out at 7:30 with 2 banshees, 2 tanks with seige or 3 without (depending on whether I suspect blink) 1 hellion if I controlled well enough to keep it alive after scouting (usually not because I am terrible) and as many marines as I can make out of 1 reactored barracks. At 7:30 in this "standard" game, the protoss had 1 stalker and 2 sentries and the shrine, the robo, and the stargate were not close to done. Terran saw the shrine finish AND the stargate with the banshee at about 8:30 before he even left his base and didn't start an engineering bay until about a minute after that. He knew there was a phoenix AND dts and he still led his army with the raven so it could easily be picked off and made another banshee, for some reason. Then, once his marines that were being rallied to Protoss natural started dying to DT, he didn't pull any scvs to repair depots or make a double wall to buy time. He arrived at Protoss natural well after the TEN minute mark, and Protoss still hadn't broken into Terran base with DTs. Do high level players generally wait that long to move out? Why? And what would you do about it with this build that takes THREE different tech paths (one of them tier 3) and an expansion?
I know the games aren't the greatest examples, I wasn't saving my replays until recently so hopefully I can get some more good games in, but as for the attack timing, if he leaves earlier I will still have DTs ready. If T all ins even earlier, before I get dark shrine up, then I can retreat up my ramp and use FF to stall and sac the natural. If he is committing to an all in this early then I will still have better economy after saccing the nat.
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EPT
