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On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine.
I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
If you can indeed work in a forge with excess minerals which gets you a canon in each mineral line in time to be safe (I've seen Kiwikaki doing it when going for single forge+fast twilight charge into chargelot-archon of 2base after 1gate fe to be safe vs fast cloak vs feing terran, though he puts them up around 1min later, since cloaked banshees, if they are coming, are going to be late). However, I believe that such an early forge with 2 canons which can only help you with some harass but not with some frontal push are too much at that point, rather adding in the forge a bit later. I'd love to cover this risk though, since ify ou are totally unprepared, it takes so long to get detection out and like 2 cloaked banshees can kill a whole lot. Maybe you can kinda equalize dmg with your own dts, this will require you to not let him get an enginering bay up in time though.
If you run into ghost-stim/+1 timing and manage to hold it with that opening it would be nice if you could post the replay. As of lately this push hasn't been really popular it seems. The only thing I keep to run into regularly is the 10min 2ghost timing push after terran fe which comes so late that you can hold it with good unit spread usually quite fine. I'm pretty sure the other opening is kinda a buildorder loss and unless the terran screws up a whole lot, you will just lose.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2011 11:39 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine.
I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
If you can indeed work in a forge with excess minerals which gets you a canon in each mineral line in time to be safe (I've seen Kiwikaki doing it when going for single forge+fast twilight charge into chargelot-archon of 2base after 1gate fe to be safe vs fast cloak vs feing terran, though he puts them up around 1min later, since cloaked banshees, if they are coming, are going to be late). However, I believe that such an early forge with 2 canons which can only help you with some harass but not with some frontal push are too much at that point, rather adding in the forge a bit later. I'd love to cover this risk though, since ify ou are totally unprepared, it takes so long to get detection out and like 2 cloaked banshees can kill a whole lot. Maybe you can kinda equalize dmg with your own dts, this will require you to not let him get an enginering bay up in time though. If you run into ghost-stim/+1 timing and manage to hold it with that opening it would be nice if you could post the replay. As of lately this push hasn't been really popular it seems. The only thing I keep to run into regularly is the 10min 2ghost timing push after terran fe which comes so late that you can hold it with good unit spread usually quite fine. I'm pretty sure the other opening is kinda a buildorder loss and unless the terran screws up a whole lot, you will just lose.
So you want a forge, stargate, and dark shrine all off 2 bases whilst still having enough stuff to hold off the push at the front? I just don't think its viable to tech so many different ways so early and cover all your bases against the 1-1-1. Say you do get the forge up and a cannon in each mineral line, that still leaves your front as well as all your production facilities for the cloaked banshees to prey on. This all assumes that you scout cloak coming with enough time to get a forge AND the cannons up, as they're just a huge mineral sink otherwise.
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On September 30 2011 16:36 Vyce wrote:
So you want a forge, stargate, and dark shrine all off 2 bases whilst still having enough stuff to hold off the push at the front?
That's exactly the idea of the op. I also believe firmly it's too expensive hence why i asked him about excess minerals he mentioned and how much money goes into this. :-)
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So you want a forge, stargate, and dark shrine all off 2 bases whilst still having enough stuff to hold off the push at the front? I just don't think its viable to tech so many different ways so early and cover all your bases against the 1-1-1. Say you do get the forge up and a cannon in each mineral line, that still leaves your front as well as all your production facilities for the cloaked banshees to prey on. This all assumes that you scout cloak coming with enough time to get a forge AND the cannons up, as they're just a huge mineral sink otherwise.
You don't need enough to hold the push at the front, you just need undetected DTs to eventually clean up the push.
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the point is, you can stop a 1/1/1 if you know its coming, the problem is you can't know it. There are countless things a terran can do with gas.
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On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great
He has Mules so its actually similar economy.
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On October 01 2011 03:16 Nolot wrote:
the point is, you can stop a 1/1/1 if you know its coming, the problem is you can't know it. There are countless things a terran can do with gas.
The OP wrote to scout with first stalker and I don't know any other terran build that got a random reactor if they are gonna FE or tech.
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:37 Irisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great He has Mules so its actually similar economy.
He actually only has 1 Mule, singular, at a time... the income of 1-base maximum mineral saturation for terran is the same as (24 scvs, 1 mule) is the same as a 2-base protoss with the same number of mineral workers (12 probes on 1 min line, 12 on the other). If the protoss player reaches optimal saturation, which is 16 probes on each minline, he'll have 50% more mineral income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. If he reaches full saturation, 24 probes on each minline, he'll have about 70% more income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player.
This means that, unless the protoss player cuts probes so he has 1 base max saturation of probes split across 2 base (rather than 2 base optimal or 2 base max saturation), his income will be way ahead of the terran player.
The issue isn't economy, it's resources mined. The protoss player's income will get ahead, but only a little bit before a timing push-- most of the time, the terran had the mule advantage while the protoss was still on 1 base.
This is why stalling makes the protoss stronger.
The longer you stall, the more time is spent with the protoss having the stronger economy than the terran, and the less time (proportionally) was spent with the terran having a stronger economy with the protoss.
This build is built around stalling and getting that crucial time to get ahead in units. From what I can tell, it's solid, and the OP in these replays knows what he's doing. If I were you guys I'd give it a bit more credit.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2011 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:37 Irisa wrote:On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great He has Mules so its actually similar economy. He actually only has 1 Mule, singular, at a time... the income of 1-base maximum mineral saturation for terran is the same as (24 scvs, 1 mule) is the same as a 2-base protoss with the same number of mineral workers (12 probes on 1 min line, 12 on the other). If the protoss player reaches optimal saturation, which is 16 probes on each minline, he'll have 50% more mineral income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. If he reaches full saturation, 24 probes on each minline, he'll have about 70% more income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. This means that, unless the protoss player cuts probes so he has 1 base max saturation of probes split across 2 base (rather than 2 base optimal or 2 base max saturation), his income will be way ahead of the terran player. The issue isn't economy, it's resources mined. The protoss player's income will get ahead, but only a little bit before a timing push-- most of the time, the terran had the mule advantage while the protoss was still on 1 base. This is why stalling makes the protoss stronger. The longer you stall, the more time is spent with the protoss having the stronger economy than the terran, and the less time (proportionally) was spent with the terran having a stronger economy with the protoss. This build is built around stalling and getting that crucial time to get ahead in units. From what I can tell, it's solid, and the OP in these replays knows what he's doing. If I were you guys I'd give it a bit more credit.
Stalling may make the protoss stronger, but all the investment in tech means the pay off point for said expansion is even further into the future than it would already be. We aren't denying that it COULD work, just seems to be an overly tech heavy, coinflippy (do you or do you not have detection) defense when other less risky builds are emerging (phoenix immo, also has the advantage of observers). The true issue now with 1-1-1 is not the strength of the push in a Vacuum, it's scouting it early enough to get up the standard response in enough strength to hold it. Which the quick phoenix helps with.
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I think the most comical thing about this build (I am by no means knocking it... I honestly love it) is that it's responding to a 1-1-1 by a kind of "Protoss 1-1-1". Yeah you're going down a bunch of different tech paths, but frankly so is the Terran and he has a smaller gas income than the Protoss due to being on only one base.
Obviously the biggest key to making this work is to ensure that a 1-1-1 is coming. I know that in pretty much every game I play against Terran I open up with the "Huk 20 food 1gate FE" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223726) and I've been having much success with it against bio, but I hadn't really figured out how to deal with the 1-1-1.
This seems like a promising way of going about it. Ironically, I'm in the middle of working on a DT/Phoenix build for PvZ... But it still seems fairly effective against Terran as well which I find kind of surprising.
I think the Stargate is the absolute key in dealing with the 1-1-1, as it shuts down the Banshees and the Ravens at the same time. I almost wonder if instead of going twilight tech if going something crazy like double robo for obs + immortals would be effective... As you could basically spend all your gas producing Phoenix and Immortals, and excess minerals on Zealots.
Great idea man, and even if I don't use your exact build, it's shown me that Stargate is incredibly incredibly good vs the 1-1-1, as in the games you posted the DTs did do a good amount of work, but it was the Phoenixes that really kept a keen eye on the unit composition of the Terrans in each instance.
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On October 01 2011 05:42 Vyce wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2011 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:37 Irisa wrote:On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great He has Mules so its actually similar economy. He actually only has 1 Mule, singular, at a time... the income of 1-base maximum mineral saturation for terran is the same as (24 scvs, 1 mule) is the same as a 2-base protoss with the same number of mineral workers (12 probes on 1 min line, 12 on the other). If the protoss player reaches optimal saturation, which is 16 probes on each minline, he'll have 50% more mineral income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. If he reaches full saturation, 24 probes on each minline, he'll have about 70% more income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. This means that, unless the protoss player cuts probes so he has 1 base max saturation of probes split across 2 base (rather than 2 base optimal or 2 base max saturation), his income will be way ahead of the terran player. The issue isn't economy, it's resources mined. The protoss player's income will get ahead, but only a little bit before a timing push-- most of the time, the terran had the mule advantage while the protoss was still on 1 base. This is why stalling makes the protoss stronger. The longer you stall, the more time is spent with the protoss having the stronger economy than the terran, and the less time (proportionally) was spent with the terran having a stronger economy with the protoss. This build is built around stalling and getting that crucial time to get ahead in units. From what I can tell, it's solid, and the OP in these replays knows what he's doing. If I were you guys I'd give it a bit more credit. Stalling may make the protoss stronger, but all the investment in tech means the pay off point for said expansion is even further into the future than it would already be. We aren't denying that it COULD work, just seems to be an overly tech heavy, coinflippy (do you or do you not have detection) defense when other less risky builds are emerging (phoenix immo, also has the advantage of observers). The true issue now with 1-1-1 is not the strength of the push in a Vacuum, it's scouting it early enough to get up the standard response in enough strength to hold it. Which the quick phoenix helps with.
I... I might disagree with "coinflippy" assertion with regards to detection. This build has excellent scouting, first off, and secondly, getting cloak for banshees when 1-1-1ing eats quite a bit into your gas-- gas that could have been a raven. Also, there's room in this build for forge and a cannon. I'm not sure without seeing it in action though.
Again, I'd like to see replays against that specific stuff, but it doesn't seem to me like it's a coin-flip or the protoss is at a particular disadvantage. This build is basically
1) DTs
2) Kill Ravens if they exist.
Normally DTs aren't solid against a fast starport, but in this case they may be.
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On October 01 2011 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:
I... I might disagree with "coinflippy" assertion with regards to detection. This build has excellent scouting, first off, and secondly, getting cloak for banshees when 1-1-1ing eats quite a bit into your gas-- gas that could have been a raven. Also, there's room in this build for forge and a cannon. I'm not sure without seeing it in action though.
I disagree with the "coinflippy" situation here. The build has indeed excellent scouting options but like I had mentioned in my first post already, the scouting simply comes to late for fast cloaked on banshees.
While many 1-1-1 variations are not going for cloak since they know that most protoss go for a quick robo in this circumstance anyways and need to make at least 2 obs to be safe vs cloak, if they indeed do go for cloak it's instant loss. Did you ever have to play against 2 fast cloaked banshees and your robo is just starting? They get sooooo many kills, you can gg out. I remember some master league terran posting on TL about what he thinks is the most efficient 1-1-1 allin version (he even made a youtube video about it) which includes fast cloak with 2 banshees (one coming to the main mineral line and one coming to the natural in which case you need 2 obs or one canon each at least if you don't want to lose like 10probes each and thereby having no eco to defend his afterpush.
Cloak does cost 200gas but if they go for cloak they usually skip the raven (also 200gas). So maybe you can somehow equal out the losses by killing a whole ton with your own dts like I had mentioned in my last post.
The problem about fitting in that early forge is simply a push that comes earlier. Be it a 8-8:30min ghost/stim/+1 attack timing push of one base (which you can make look like a 1-1-1, be honest apart from seeing the 2nd marine and the bunker with marines in it and maybe couting the dmg your poking stalker takes from the bunker ... you don't really get any information until you either have an obs in his base or a phoenix or hallu or he is already pushing at you).
While this doesn't seem to be common atm (it's way more common for terran in this circumstance atm to just to go gasless 1rax fe into 10min 2 ghost push of 2base) I personally ran into several marine-tank pushes that push out with 2-3 tanks around 8min. If you have just invested in a nexus, more probes, a stargate (with like 1-2 phoenix out max at that time), a twilight + dark shrine, a forge and 2 canons (which only help you with detection and harass but not vs a frontal push) ... you are so screwed. I tried to go for 1gate fe into quick robo + forge and get my +1 armor asap as a counter to 1-1-1 lately, then adding more gates etc and if you don't play someone on a super big map and delay there push (forcing them to siege a few times) you simply don't have the units when you put down a forge and started +1 armor. It's possible to hold with the things I just described (big map + delaying enough and afterwards you are in perfect shape to win the game as long as you don't screw it up) but most ladder maps are not too big and they have close spawning positions, so I don't recommend it doing on these maps. However in this case, you invested into 2 more canons, twilight and dark shrine already (stargate instead of robo is about same cost) but you can even cb out immos out of robo and use vs this push while your phoenix are in too low count to snipe out tanks, they will die to the marines before they can kill a single one. But maybe the same principle can apply here and you simply lose your natural etc but kill his forces with dts (I'm pretty sure he won't have a lot of scans saved). They bring scvs with this push and could make turrets, but they won't have an engineering bay up mostly, so you could hold it. Against the marine/stim/+1/ghost timing of one base however you are just screwed. He has oc, engineering bay and emp from ghsots to detect. Apart from that he has the absolut perfect unit composition vs your units and didn't invest in as much tech as you and not in an expansion, he will just outright kill you.
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Jus gas steal and no more worries on cloaked banshee
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whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified
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Scouting with the Stalker is super riscy. If he went for 2 Racks FE he's just going to kill it and attack you afterwards ;|
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On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified
I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS!
Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in.
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On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in.
turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold.
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On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold.
...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1...
Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units.
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On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units.
im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings.
and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon
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EPT
