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On October 02 2011 03:31 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units. im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings. and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon
You're cutting marines?
Don't you know the biggest part of the 1/1/1 is the reactored marines? I don't think you understand what he means by lack of detection. He doesn't NEED to kill your main. He's going to snipe your raven (if you have one) and force you to use scans (which means no mules, which means terran IS ALL IN COMPLETELY). If you delay to build an ebay, that still doesn't matter because you'd have to slow push while building turrets. This build is all about stalling. The more you stall, the more your income pays off, meaning the more units you can get out.
He's not going to send 5 DTs at once into your entire army rofl. He's going to send one at a time and force you to continuously scan, so you have no mule. All the time you waste stopping and scanning means more time for him to get units.
The problem I have with this build is the cloak banshees. I would suggest a gas steal always... but they could still get cloak. Depending on the timing, if your forge or robo isn't up in time you basically auto lose.
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On October 02 2011 03:31 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units. im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings. and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon
What do you think comes after this dt phoenix? Chargelot archon ________ anything. They get chargelots as they EAT through tank pushes, and marines without upgrades. Hence why delaying your 1-1-1 push to get turrets, and less marines means he has MORE time to get charge, and two bases of excess minerals to spend on zealots.
And, I'm sure if you start turreting, he cuts pheonix as they ALREADY did damage without killing anything. DT become archon, and he crushes push and wins, or takes a third, and harasses with DTs and just rolls over you with double chrono forges.
That's how that turreting would go.
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On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 03:42 Fairwell wrote:
Your style really seems very interesting to me, especially since I love using phoenix and dts. However, I'm really concerned about two things:
1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec.
aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time.
2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win).
Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base.
I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1.
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine. I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
That's not when it finished in the replay. The FASTEST you can have dts on one base is 6:30 and you expanded, made a stargate, some phoenix, and a robo. The terran had about 1.5 minutes where he could have attacked freely and you had nothing to stop him. He had another 2 minutes to make an ebay once he saw the first DT before you broke into his base. This is a super effective strategy agaisnt a 1/1/1 that hits after 9 minutes, but not one hat hits at 7:30. Additionally, when I see a protoss expand that fast and I am planning on a standard 1/1/1, I just don't make any banshees and throw down an armory instead and make 1 medivac to quickly shuttle my second thor across the map and heal my marines. If you expand that fast, all you are going to have are sentries when the first Thor with 8 scvs and a dozen marines arrives at your base... how would you deal with that? (I play random, so again, I'm looking for ways to stop my own build, not being critical)
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On October 02 2011 03:44 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 03:31 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units. im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings. and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon You're cutting marines? Don't you know the biggest part of the 1/1/1 is the reactored marines? I don't think you understand what he means by lack of detection. He doesn't NEED to kill your main. He's going to snipe your raven (if you have one) and force you to use scans (which means no mules, which means terran IS ALL IN COMPLETELY). If you delay to build an ebay, that still doesn't matter because you'd have to slow push while building turrets. This build is all about stalling. The more you stall, the more your income pays off, meaning the more units you can get out. He's not going to send 5 DTs at once into your entire army rofl. He's going to send one at a time and force you to continuously scan, so you have no mule. All the time you waste stopping and scanning means more time for him to get units. The problem I have with this build is the cloak banshees. I would suggest a gas steal always... but they could still get cloak. Depending on the timing, if your forge or robo isn't up in time you basically auto lose.
I don't think you understand. Sure, when the 1/1/1 is used against most strats the marines are the most important part. However, this isn't a normal strat: it's dt/phoenix. The strat HINGES upon the fact that the dt's remain invisible, because once they get detected they're as good as dead. That's why in this specific instance you can cut some marines and get a turret in your main, and 1~2 during your push. In this case, there would be no raven to snipe which equals more banshees, more tanks, and even a little bit more marines.
I won't have to slow push while building turrets. I would siege up right in his main since his army can't directly oppose mine, and save two scans and use them in case he tries to kill the turret before it completes. Once the turret completes I can put another turret at the fringes of the detection for the first turret, and voila, I can now attack his main and his dt's cant do anything.
You misinterpreted my part about 5 dt's: once you have a turret up, the other player can't send 1 by 1 dt's anymore; it's all or nothing.
And know what I can get by skipping the raven in favour of turrets? cloak.
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...You act as if he won't build ANYTHING but phoenix and DT. I'm sure he gets some stalkers, and zealots. With a probe pull, phoenix dt stalker zealot with 1-2 sentries can stop that push, with ease, before the turrets are up..
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On October 02 2011 08:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:
...You act as if he won't build ANYTHING but phoenix and DT. I'm sure he gets some stalkers, and zealots. With a probe pull, phoenix dt stalker zealot with 1-2 sentries can stop that push, with ease, before the turrets are up..
well excuse me for basing my argument around your thread topic. -_-
and how many sentries and stalkers do you think you can get when you go phoenix dt?
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On October 02 2011 08:42 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 08:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:
...You act as if he won't build ANYTHING but phoenix and DT. I'm sure he gets some stalkers, and zealots. With a probe pull, phoenix dt stalker zealot with 1-2 sentries can stop that push, with ease, before the turrets are up.. well excuse me for basing my argument around your thread topic. -_- and how many sentries and stalkers do you think you can get when you go phoenix dt?
Well, the game I played against him, when I pushed he had a warp prism, 5-6 stalkers, 4-5 sentries, DT warp in soon, with I believe 3-4 phoenix. I push no raven, 1 banshee, marine tank about 8-9 min, so a delayed 1-1-1? He's going to have a nice army, and possibly charge + chargelots, with DT into archon if he sees a raven, or mass banshees.
Any delay is you losing more, he's on two base, with whole tech tree almost opened.
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On September 29 2011 06:59 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:50 QTIP. wrote:On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs. If I am remembering the same game, MC used blink stalkers to try to take out the Raven, which are less mobile and it is much more difficult to take out a raven with them. I've tried blink stalkers as well, it doesn't work, but Phoenixes are a different thing. I've practiced this against T's who know what I am doing, and they cannot keep their ravens alive. I've even seen T's make 2 Ravens and I can still snipe them with Phoenixes.
Yeah i think this build is viable maybe if you can somehow incorperate charge into it.. Marines are too good and his marine count will get higher/ he can expand and go for a timing push around 11-12 minutes with stim. Dt's are good but if your double teching your main army is never really bulky as it's really fragile to paly this way.
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EPT
