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Hello,
Recently I found a way to stop the 1-1-1 which I believe is by far the best response from what I have seen - Phoenixes and DTs
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
Opening Build:
I open with a very standard build, I only branch into the Phoenix DT build after scouting with my first stalker.
-Pylon
-Gate (scout with Probe)
-Gas
-Pylon
-Core
-Gas
(first 4 chronos on Nexus)
-Stalker (I chrono this) + Warpgate tech
(scout with Stalker)
-2 Sentries from your Gateway after the Stalker
When my Stalker scout reaches his base, if I think it is a 1-1-1 this is how I respond:
-Nexus at nat
-Stargate
-Twilight Council
-Gateway
-3rd and 4th Gas to line up with when your Nexus finishes (you need LOTS of gas for this build)
-Start producing Phoenixes when SG finishes
-Dark Shrine as soon as TC finishes (and you have enough gas, may have to halt Phoenix production)
-Keep making Phoenixes
Executing the Strategy:
Once you have the tech you need, you need to scout with your first Phoenix as soon as possible to make sure it is still in fact a 1-1-1 all in. If he is still doing this, these are the things you need to be doing to stop him
-Set up a proxy Pylon somewhere closer to his base, if you can, also add a Pylon on the low ground that can warp into his base (with vision from your Phoenixes).
-Constantly fly around with your Phoenixes and look for opportunities to take shots at his Raven or Banshees. Raven is the priority because you want to eliminate all detection for your DTs.
-Don't be afraid to right click onto their Raven if they are moving out and you really need it dead, the Phoenixes will kill the Raven before the Marines kill your Phoenixes. If he uses a PDD, just back off, it is no problem because PDDs are immoble and if he wants to attack you he will have to leave it eventually.
-Have DTs scattered on the map, whenever his army is on the field without a Raven, send DTs in 1 by 1 to kill units and force scans. Also send DTs to the main whenever you have to opening to do so.
If you follow these ideas the 1-1-1 should be shut down pretty easily, I have not lost to a 1-1-1 besides a couple games where I made such major mistakes that what build I used was mostly irrelevent.
What to do if he does not all in you with his 1-1-1:
There are basically two possibilities here:
1. He never intended to all in from the start, he already had a CC started when you scout him with your Phoenix.
2. He saw what you are doing and as a response decided to expand instead of going all in.
In the case of 1: You can basically just play it out as a standard game from here, it is an advantageous position for P because you have Phoenixes and DTs for harass. I personally have been going teching to Colossus in this circumstance, but whatever mid game style you feel comfortable with should be fine.
In the case of 2: By the time he leaves his main to take his natural, he is behind economically because you took your natural much more quickly. I usually just end it with a Chargelot Archon 2 base push.
Keep in mind that you still need to try to kill Ravens whenever possible to keep him in his base.
Replays:
I only started saving my replays recently so I don't have that many, but here are a few that demonstrate this build:
PvT phantaxx vs Runek - Standard 1-1-1 all in.
PvT phantaxx vs vileHasHe - Expand variation of the 1-1-1.
PvT phantaxx vs VPCry - Technically not a 1-1-1, 2 Starports instead of a Fact with techlab, plays out identically to a regular 1-1-1.
My macro in these games is actually really sloppy, I'm still getting used to the build, but the great thing is that I can crush 1-1-1's even with 1.5k minerals banked.
If you want to see this build in action more I stream sometimes at www.twitch.tv/phantaxx
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On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs.
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Very interesting build idea. I especially like how the DT's put an enormous pressure on the T and time becomes your ally as opposed to an encamped T. I do have a concern with cloaked banshees, however. What do you do if the 1-1-1 uses cloak or if you mis-read the opening and it was just a cloak banshee open?
Keep up the experimentation!
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On September 29 2011 06:50 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs.
If I am remembering the same game, MC used blink stalkers to try to take out the Raven, which are less mobile and it is much more difficult to take out a raven with them. I've tried blink stalkers as well, it doesn't work, but Phoenixes are a different thing. I've practiced this against T's who know what I am doing, and they cannot keep their ravens alive. I've even seen T's make 2 Ravens and I can still snipe them with Phoenixes.
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On September 29 2011 06:56 jrdn wrote:
Very interesting build idea. I especially like how the DT's put an enormous pressure on the T and time becomes your ally as opposed to an encamped T. I do have a concern with cloaked banshees, however. What do you do if the 1-1-1 uses cloak or if you mis-read the opening and it was just a cloak banshee open?
Keep up the experimentation!
So far I haven't run into cloaked banshees because T's always cancel cloak when they see a Phoenix, if necessary I can work a robo into the build if it turns into a problem, if they spend 200/200 on cloak that is also less gas for Ravens. Also, I can usually kill banshees before they can even leave their base if I just fly around with my Phoenixes.
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On September 29 2011 06:59 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:50 QTIP. wrote:On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs. If I am remembering the same game, MC used blink stalkers to try to take out the Raven, which are less mobile and it is much more difficult to take out a raven with them. I've tried blink stalkers as well, it doesn't work, but Phoenixes are a different thing. I've practiced this against T's who know what I am doing, and they cannot keep their ravens alive. I've even seen T's make 2 Ravens and I can still snipe them with Phoenixes.
He snipes the first Raven with a Phoenix as it comes out of the Starport. Puma builds another one. He tries again with Blink stalkers, but fails. I'm impressed that you can snipe 2 Ravens with Marine clouds underneath. Not to mention the emergency PDD that can be deployed to nullify your Phoenix.
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Wouldn't a 3-rax just roll over you during your "expo + 2 tech paths" transition? You can't actually confirm the 1/1/1 until your first phoenix reaches his base.
I'm also of the opinion you can hold a 1/1/1 (just have to get the right mix of zealot/phoenix/VR based on what you scout) with a 1-base stargate opener which doesn't leave you susceptible to early rax pressure, and if you confirm an expo you can still get back in the game with good phoenix/VR harassment.
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You can confirm a 1-1-1 opening by doing this:
13 Gate
Zealot (cb)
Core
Zealot (cb)
Stalker (cb)
It's possible to build the first zealot, and the core right as the gateway finishes. You need to probe scout after 2nd pylon to get the minerals.
You only need to know where to send rally the zealots, don't need to get into his base with probe.
iSTime wrote a thread about 1gate TC openings, which uses this 3x cb Zeal Zeal Stalker opening to force the terran to show his hand.
I have been using this specific opening in my PvT's, and going DT shrine -> Nexus when I see bio play. Had been going blink + robo vs 1-1-1 openings.
Will try your response to 1-1-1 - really feels like you're hoping the terran screws up with raven/marine positioning though.
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I feel if they skip ravens, and banshee and go with a demuslim esque (only player I see do it) mass marine and tank with no siege, or late siege, with scv pull and a scan or two can almost 1a over your army, due to the spread of dt/phoenix.
However, depending on the timing it hits, if it's a later variation of 1-1-1, especially with cloak or more banshees than 1-2, then you will easily win with simple control.
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On September 29 2011 08:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I feel if they skip ravens, and banshee and go with a demuslim esque (only player I see do it) mass marine and tank with no siege, or late siege, with scv pull and a scan or two can almost 1a over your army, due to the spread of dt/phoenix.
However, depending on the timing it hits, if it's a later variation of 1-1-1, especially with cloak or more banshees than 1-2, then you will easily win with simple control.
DT opening crushes any 1 base push that doesn't have a raven. You need to stagger your DT's so that he can't just spend 3 scans when he's at your base.
Most DT Expo builds warp in 3 dt's upon completion - poke at his ramp with a probe, or one of the dt's to see if he has a turret ready or not.
If he does, you just sit outside his base with 1 DT, while controlling towers, and checking map for hidden SCV scouts.
Obviously this doesn't work on retarded map positions like Metal/Shattered close pos.
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On September 29 2011 08:06 Trusty wrote:
You can confirm a 1-1-1 opening by doing this:
13 Gate
Zealot (cb)
Core
Zealot (cb)
Stalker (cb)
It's possible to build the first zealot, and the core right as the gateway finishes. You need to probe scout after 2nd pylon to get the minerals.
You only need to know where to send rally the zealots, don't need to get into his base with probe.
iSTime wrote a thread about 1gate TC openings, which uses this 3x cb Zeal Zeal Stalker opening to force the terran to show his hand.
I have been using this specific opening in my PvT's, and going DT shrine -> Nexus when I see bio play. Had been going blink + robo vs 1-1-1 openings.
Will try your response to 1-1-1 - really feels like you're hoping the terran screws up with raven/marine positioning though.
How exactly does a 2 zealot + stalker push force his hand? Wouldn't a bunker with SCVs repairing easily thwart it?
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On September 29 2011 08:15 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I feel if they skip ravens, and banshee and go with a demuslim esque (only player I see do it) mass marine and tank with no siege, or late siege, with scv pull and a scan or two can almost 1a over your army, due to the spread of dt/phoenix.
However, depending on the timing it hits, if it's a later variation of 1-1-1, especially with cloak or more banshees than 1-2, then you will easily win with simple control. DT opening crushes any 1 base push that doesn't have a raven. You need to stagger your DT's so that he can't just spend 3 scans when he's at your base. Most DT Expo builds warp in 3 dt's upon completion.
...It depends on the time your 1-1-1 hits, and how many kills the banshee gets/ how many stalkers he is forced to make...
Not blowing smoke out of my ass. I don't know if he counted it, but I'm one of the 2 side in his 13-2.. Although, a minute later of a push and my ass was grass in the game we did play. Not to mention, I'm positive he'd take me easily in a best of any series.
The really awesome part, if it's the same build I faced, is the drop prism usage in my main as you are semi forced to pull every SCV and all in. If he stops it, he wins 100% due to the inability to detect DTs, and if you get a raven, the ability to keep it alive against that many phoenix.
If you place tanks at all badly with no coverage, your tanks are lifted, and your push is over and your game is lost.
Very very strong anti 1-1-1 especially with proper scouting and execution of his build.
But, now I see I didn't even get this build. Just a transition into it, and I STILL barely won after he went robo tech. Should be a testament to the strength of it. To go robo, and still get phoenix and DT out is insane, especially because he FEs.
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On September 29 2011 08:17 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 08:06 Trusty wrote:
You can confirm a 1-1-1 opening by doing this:
13 Gate
Zealot (cb)
Core
Zealot (cb)
Stalker (cb)
It's possible to build the first zealot, and the core right as the gateway finishes. You need to probe scout after 2nd pylon to get the minerals.
You only need to know where to send rally the zealots, don't need to get into his base with probe.
iSTime wrote a thread about 1gate TC openings, which uses this 3x cb Zeal Zeal Stalker opening to force the terran to show his hand.
I have been using this specific opening in my PvT's, and going DT shrine -> Nexus when I see bio play. Had been going blink + robo vs 1-1-1 openings.
Will try your response to 1-1-1 - really feels like you're hoping the terran screws up with raven/marine positioning though. How exactly does a 2 zealot + stalker push force his hand? Wouldn't a bunker with SCVs repairing easily thwart it?
First zealot arrives before a bunker can be completed. You're trading economy (CB's on probes) for really really fast units.
I should have been more specific, you rally the units to his ramp, you don't wait for all 3 units before poking. Just before your first zealot is about to arrive, send your probe scout up the ramp to see whether is worth while waiting for zealot #2 or not, and usually it's not worth waiting.
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Has this build been tested against a turret push? As in, terran scouts what protoss is doing, throws down an ebay, and otherwise executes the 111 normally if a bit delayed. Cover your army with a scan and ravens until you get close enough to start a turret push. And then you've effectively nullified both techs with static defense.
I haven't tested it, so maybe it's not even a "thing" that can reasonably happen, but I am interested in knowing if this was considered.
I like the build btw, I'll be trying it out.
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I do this, but with a different opening: the Naniwa PvT. I do it in high diamond and it works wonders against 1-1-1 styles.
# 9 Pylon
# 13 Gateway, scout with probe
# 14 Assimilator
# 16 Pylon (start saving up Nexus energy after 3rd chrono)
# 18 Cybernetics Core
# 19 Zealot
# 22 Gateway
# @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate, chrono this as much as possible
# @100 minerals: Pylon, then Sentry as soon as you can afford it
# @100 gas: 2x Stalker
# 32 Pylon (proxy somewhere close to the Terran base)
# @100% Stalkers: walk all units toward Terran base
# 34 Nexus, convert Gateways into Warpgates
# Warp in 2 Stalkers at the proxy
# Attack the Terran player's base and build 2nd Assimilator
If they're going with a standard 1-1-1, you're showing up at their base with what looks like a 4gate army (1 zealot, 1 sentry, 4 stalkers), and that usually freaks them out enough for them to pull scvs or throw down bunkers. If they're rushing their 1-1-1 out, this push hits them at a really bad time; they'll usually have a tank and some marines, but often no siege tech. If you won't make it up his ramp (i.e. he went bio/has more than 1 bunker), you're at least sitting at the bottom of their ramp waiting to throw down a forcefield if he moves out.
I think this opening comes in really handy by delaying their push long enough to tech up to dts and phoenixes off 2 bases. I throw down my TC and SG while I'm applying pressure with my 6 units.
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On September 29 2011 10:40 hejakev wrote:I do this, but with a different opening: the Naniwa PvT. I do it in high diamond and it works wonders against 1-1-1 styles. # 9 Pylon # 13 Gateway, scout with probe # 14 Assimilator # 16 Pylon (start saving up Nexus energy after 3rd chrono) # 18 Cybernetics Core # 19 Zealot # 22 Gateway # @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate, chrono this as much as possible # @100 minerals: Pylon, then Sentry as soon as you can afford it # @100 gas: 2x Stalker # 32 Pylon (proxy somewhere close to the Terran base) # @100% Stalkers: walk all units toward Terran base # 34 Nexus, convert Gateways into Warpgates # Warp in 2 Stalkers at the proxy # Attack the Terran player's base and build 2nd Assimilator If they're going with a standard 1-1-1, you're showing up at their base with what looks like a 4gate army (1 zealot, 1 sentry, 4 stalkers), and that usually freaks them out enough for them to pull scvs or throw down bunkers. If they're rushing their 1-1-1 out, this push hits them at a really bad time; they'll usually have a tank and some marines, but often no siege tech. If you won't make it up his ramp (i.e. he went bio/has more than 1 bunker), you're at least sitting at the bottom of their ramp waiting to throw down a forcefield if he moves out. I think this opening comes in really handy by delaying their push long enough to tech up to dts and phoenixes off 2 bases. I throw down my TC and SG while I'm applying pressure with my 6 units.
The 2Gate nexus (popularised by chitaPrime and Naniwa) has gone out of favour - as people realise that you can 1gate FE safely, and that the Naniwa build is too slow to do anything vs gasless FE.
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dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes.
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On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes.
he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great
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I am currently 13-2 against 1-1-1's, all variations and transitions from it as well using this method; my only losses being from poor execution on my part, not a fault of the build.
PvT phantaxx vs Runek - Standard 1-1-1 all in.
So, I'm only a Platinum random player, so I play TvP approximately once every 9 games and I don't have time to play a lot, but I move out at 7:30 with 2 banshees, 2 tanks with seige or 3 without (depending on whether I suspect blink) 1 hellion if I controlled well enough to keep it alive after scouting (usually not because I am terrible) and as many marines as I can make out of 1 reactored barracks. At 7:30 in this "standard" game, the protoss had 1 stalker and 2 sentries and the shrine, the robo, and the stargate were not close to done.
Terran saw the shrine finish AND the stargate with the banshee at about 8:30 before he even left his base and didn't start an engineering bay until about a minute after that. He knew there was a phoenix AND dts and he still led his army with the raven so it could easily be picked off and made another banshee, for some reason. Then, once his marines that were being rallied to Protoss natural started dying to DT, he didn't pull any scvs to repair depots or make a double wall to buy time. He arrived at Protoss natural well after the TEN minute mark, and Protoss still hadn't broken into Terran base with DTs.
Do high level players generally wait that long to move out? Why? And what would you do about it with this build that takes THREE different tech paths (one of them tier 3) and an expansion?
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On September 29 2011 12:00 U_G_L_Y wrote:I am currently 13-2 against 1-1-1's, all variations and transitions from it as well using this method; my only losses being from poor execution on my part, not a fault of the build.PvT phantaxx vs Runek - Standard 1-1-1 all in. So, I'm only a Platinum random player, so I play TvP approximately once every 9 games and I don't have time to play a lot, but I move out at 7:30 with 2 banshees, 2 tanks with seige or 3 without (depending on whether I suspect blink) 1 hellion if I controlled well enough to keep it alive after scouting (usually not because I am terrible) and as many marines as I can make out of 1 reactored barracks. At 7:30 in this "standard" game, the protoss had 1 stalker and 2 sentries and the shrine, the robo, and the stargate were not close to done. Terran saw the shrine finish AND the stargate with the banshee at about 8:30 before he even left his base and didn't start an engineering bay until about a minute after that. He knew there was a phoenix AND dts and he still led his army with the raven so it could easily be picked off and made another banshee, for some reason. Then, once his marines that were being rallied to Protoss natural started dying to DT, he didn't pull any scvs to repair depots or make a double wall to buy time. He arrived at Protoss natural well after the TEN minute mark, and Protoss still hadn't broken into Terran base with DTs. Do high level players generally wait that long to move out? Why? And what would you do about it with this build that takes THREE different tech paths (one of them tier 3) and an expansion?
I know the games aren't the greatest examples, I wasn't saving my replays until recently so hopefully I can get some more good games in, but as for the attack timing, if he leaves earlier I will still have DTs ready. If T all ins even earlier, before I get dark shrine up, then I can retreat up my ramp and use FF to stall and sac the natural. If he is committing to an all in this early then I will still have better economy after saccing the nat.
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Lol what if terran doesn't stops the 1-1-1 and just forgo the attack to take natural? YOu do realize pheonix DT is like ALOT of gas investment and your main army will be tiny right?
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On September 29 2011 13:00 phaleos wrote:
Lol what if terran doesn't stops the 1-1-1 and just forgo the attack to take natural? YOu do realize pheonix DT is like ALOT of gas investment and your main army will be tiny right?
It is, but if the terran chooses to expand both phoenixes and dts are great harassment units and P can make T's life hell. Besides, dt production can be stopped as soon as P scouts the expansion, and protoss can transition into high templar or a phoenix/colossus composition. Also, your post actually makes 0 sense because a terran taking his expansion is unlikely to attack in this situation as if he wanted to attack making more barracks and pumping more marines would be a much smarter choice.
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what do you do vs. cloak banshees if your phoenix dont get there in time or miss the banshees heading to your base?
Thats the only thing that scares me
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Phantaxx didn't we play an epic 1v1 base trade game in metal 2 weeks ago tl open? TvP?
Does this build handle the reactor barracks siege tank push yet?
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Nice build, I'd never have thought of going for that much tech at once.
I am a bit worried though. I feel almost certain there would be a faster all-in that looks like 1-1-1 to your stalker which would snap you in the gaping chasm between your investment and payoff. A nexus, twilight, stargate and shrine all at once is a ridiculous amount of money that's not becoming units, and so early...
In fact I'd be pretty sure there'd even be a reactive modification to the 1-1-1 which could hit that timing.
What were your losses to, and have you tested this against a solid T practice partner trying to beat it off 1-1-1?
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Cool shit Phantaxx. Disregard the knee-jerk reactions and really take in the good input to help you refine and perfect what you're doing. This kind of innovation is EXACTLY what toss needs right now. Please, keep up the good work.
I'm currently playing around with 2 gate robo expand and upon confirming 1-1-1 throwing down a stargate to produce some phoenix. Still got lots of work to do but in principal, the experimentation with a new build is whats most important.
Your build, along with the PvZ gateway forge build found here are the kinds of build innovating that all Protoss players need to emulate and contribute their 2 cents to, should we ever hope to pull out of the slump we are currently in as a race.
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On September 29 2011 14:00 n3ac3y wrote:
Phantaxx didn't we play an epic 1v1 base trade game in metal 2 weeks ago tl open? TvP?
Does this build handle the reactor barracks siege tank push yet?
Yeah I think I remember that game, my build is a bit different since then though I used to try to get a warp prism as well to drop DTs into the main if I couldn't get in any other way, so the other tech was slightly delayed, but now I think it should hold marine tank because I get my DT shrine much earlier, I haven't tested that specifically but based on the timings I'm pretty confident on it.
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On September 29 2011 14:15 Belisarius wrote:
Nice build, I'd never have thought of going for that much tech at once.
I am a bit worried though. I feel almost certain there would be a faster all-in that looks like 1-1-1 to your stalker which would snap you in the gaping chasm between your investment and payoff. A nexus, twilight, stargate and shrine all at once is a ridiculous amount of money that's not becoming units, and so early...
In fact I'd be pretty sure there'd even be a reactive modification to the 1-1-1 which could hit that timing.
What were your losses to, and have you tested this against a solid T practice partner trying to beat it off 1-1-1?
I think if an all in comes fast enough that DTs are not ready yet, then T will have sacrificed enough economy that going up your ramp and just staying safe with FF will put you in a good position, the tech might be a bit slower because I think it would be fine, I will have to test it sometime.
My losses so far have been 1 where I forgot to take my 3rd and 4th gasses and massively delayed my tech, and 1 where I completely wasn't paying attention and he got to my base without me realizing he had left.
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This build reminds me of BW, only used against terran instead of zerg. I miss DT Corsair so much, and any build similar to it gets my thumb of approval! I will watch the replays soon but at the moment I like the effort and trying something new. Protoss needs to do stuff like this to really discover what they can do to stop the strong terran "1/1/1" timing push/all-in
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Replace stargate/phoenix with blink. Get Robo for Obs.
Force engagements with pure stalker - aim Raven. If PDD drops, blink out.
If he pushes without PDD, suicide blink 6 stalkers to kill raven, send in dt's one by one (1 dt, 1 scan).
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Thank you thank you for sharing, always looking for cool ways to play protoss (aka use fun units like Phoenixes :D)
Reminds me of corsair DT Bisu vs Savior lol
About the transition if he scouts you and just expands instead of all-in:
Instead of getting colossus, why not just go chargelot Phoenix and maybe/later archons and even later HT? You already got the twilight and dark shrine. Plus Chargelot Phoenix Archon proved to be quite good, used by Liquid Hero vs MKP in WCG
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Biggest issue with this I feel is that the DT's and the Phoenix both fill similar roles in stopping the 1-1-1 (picking off units here and there, whilst being of limited use when the push gets outside your base). Due to the gas heavy nature of teching to and pumping phoenix and Dt's it may leave your main army sentry and stalker light, which tends to hurt your ability to split the marines into manageable chunks, whilst also meaning that researching charge for mass zealots eats into your already scarce gas count.
The other issue that springs to mind is if the Terran catches wind of the complete lack of detection, he just researches cloak on his banshees and suddenly you have to invest even more gas into robo/obs.
On a big map, where you have plenty of time to whittle down the Terran's army with single dt's forcing scans or chopping reinforcements down as the trail out towards the main ball of doom this strategy may well be viable, but on a few of the smaller maps i feel that it may not be possible to do enough harass damage before he gets into a position where you have to break the army in order for it to be viable.
That and the lack of ability to tech up to quick Colo for whatever follow up comes after the initial push makes me leery of trying it (see Huk vs Virus g1 group d Gsl sept - whilst not 1-1-1, the mass marine follow-up just killed Huk after a near perfect first hold)
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attempting a bisu vs terran in sc2, (corsair, dt)
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I've been trying this vs terran today. so far 2-0 vs 1-1-1 all in! Although, i don't quite have the transition if it isn't 1-1-1 down yet hehe.
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I knew I recognized your name, we played round 1 in TL Open... It seems that if you see a pure marine army in the beginning you can 1gate --> nexus --> stargate for phoenix, and get robo instead of TC because 1-1-1 can be raven or can be cloak banshee...
I reevaluated what I said, come to think of it I think this is too elegant a solution. If I scouted gas, then was walled in and with poke only saw marine, I would just continue to 4gate and push after 2 warpins. He's gotta be teching
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It seems like you would be in a terrible spot against a Terran who only mines 50 gas for a reactor and then builds a command center (jjakji vs genius for a recent example). It's going to look exactly like a 1-1-1 to your stalker poke.
Your first phoenix arrives, and you see the 2nd orbital and 2 more rax going down. There are lots of marines to deal with phoenix, and with 2 orbitals for scans, you won't be able to make enough DTs to stop him from just walking over and killing your natural, since your main army will be tiny.
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Your style really seems very interesting to me, especially since I love using phoenix and dts. However, I'm really concerned about two things:
1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec.
aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time.
2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win).
Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base.
I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1.
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Lol this reminds me of Bisu's DT / corsair build that he used against sAviOr. It was a really neat idea considering overlords were detectors.
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On September 30 2011 03:42 Fairwell wrote:
Your style really seems very interesting to me, especially since I love using phoenix and dts. However, I'm really concerned about two things:
1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec.
aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time.
2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win).
Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base.
I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1.
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine.
I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
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On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 03:42 Fairwell wrote:
Your style really seems very interesting to me, especially since I love using phoenix and dts. However, I'm really concerned about two things:
1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec.
aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time.
2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win).
Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base.
I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1.
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine. I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
DT's can get walled out of a base, banshee's cant (destroys all your probes).
I really think you need to somehow work in a Robo in time for cloak.
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On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine.
I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
If you can indeed work in a forge with excess minerals which gets you a canon in each mineral line in time to be safe (I've seen Kiwikaki doing it when going for single forge+fast twilight charge into chargelot-archon of 2base after 1gate fe to be safe vs fast cloak vs feing terran, though he puts them up around 1min later, since cloaked banshees, if they are coming, are going to be late). However, I believe that such an early forge with 2 canons which can only help you with some harass but not with some frontal push are too much at that point, rather adding in the forge a bit later. I'd love to cover this risk though, since ify ou are totally unprepared, it takes so long to get detection out and like 2 cloaked banshees can kill a whole lot. Maybe you can kinda equalize dmg with your own dts, this will require you to not let him get an enginering bay up in time though.
If you run into ghost-stim/+1 timing and manage to hold it with that opening it would be nice if you could post the replay. As of lately this push hasn't been really popular it seems. The only thing I keep to run into regularly is the 10min 2ghost timing push after terran fe which comes so late that you can hold it with good unit spread usually quite fine. I'm pretty sure the other opening is kinda a buildorder loss and unless the terran screws up a whole lot, you will just lose.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2011 11:39 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine.
I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
If you can indeed work in a forge with excess minerals which gets you a canon in each mineral line in time to be safe (I've seen Kiwikaki doing it when going for single forge+fast twilight charge into chargelot-archon of 2base after 1gate fe to be safe vs fast cloak vs feing terran, though he puts them up around 1min later, since cloaked banshees, if they are coming, are going to be late). However, I believe that such an early forge with 2 canons which can only help you with some harass but not with some frontal push are too much at that point, rather adding in the forge a bit later. I'd love to cover this risk though, since ify ou are totally unprepared, it takes so long to get detection out and like 2 cloaked banshees can kill a whole lot. Maybe you can kinda equalize dmg with your own dts, this will require you to not let him get an enginering bay up in time though. If you run into ghost-stim/+1 timing and manage to hold it with that opening it would be nice if you could post the replay. As of lately this push hasn't been really popular it seems. The only thing I keep to run into regularly is the 10min 2ghost timing push after terran fe which comes so late that you can hold it with good unit spread usually quite fine. I'm pretty sure the other opening is kinda a buildorder loss and unless the terran screws up a whole lot, you will just lose.
So you want a forge, stargate, and dark shrine all off 2 bases whilst still having enough stuff to hold off the push at the front? I just don't think its viable to tech so many different ways so early and cover all your bases against the 1-1-1. Say you do get the forge up and a cannon in each mineral line, that still leaves your front as well as all your production facilities for the cloaked banshees to prey on. This all assumes that you scout cloak coming with enough time to get a forge AND the cannons up, as they're just a huge mineral sink otherwise.
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On September 30 2011 16:36 Vyce wrote:
So you want a forge, stargate, and dark shrine all off 2 bases whilst still having enough stuff to hold off the push at the front?
That's exactly the idea of the op. I also believe firmly it's too expensive hence why i asked him about excess minerals he mentioned and how much money goes into this. :-)
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So you want a forge, stargate, and dark shrine all off 2 bases whilst still having enough stuff to hold off the push at the front? I just don't think its viable to tech so many different ways so early and cover all your bases against the 1-1-1. Say you do get the forge up and a cannon in each mineral line, that still leaves your front as well as all your production facilities for the cloaked banshees to prey on. This all assumes that you scout cloak coming with enough time to get a forge AND the cannons up, as they're just a huge mineral sink otherwise.
You don't need enough to hold the push at the front, you just need undetected DTs to eventually clean up the push.
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the point is, you can stop a 1/1/1 if you know its coming, the problem is you can't know it. There are countless things a terran can do with gas.
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On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great
He has Mules so its actually similar economy.
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On October 01 2011 03:16 Nolot wrote:
the point is, you can stop a 1/1/1 if you know its coming, the problem is you can't know it. There are countless things a terran can do with gas.
The OP wrote to scout with first stalker and I don't know any other terran build that got a random reactor if they are gonna FE or tech.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 01 2011 03:37 Irisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great He has Mules so its actually similar economy.
He actually only has 1 Mule, singular, at a time... the income of 1-base maximum mineral saturation for terran is the same as (24 scvs, 1 mule) is the same as a 2-base protoss with the same number of mineral workers (12 probes on 1 min line, 12 on the other). If the protoss player reaches optimal saturation, which is 16 probes on each minline, he'll have 50% more mineral income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. If he reaches full saturation, 24 probes on each minline, he'll have about 70% more income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player.
This means that, unless the protoss player cuts probes so he has 1 base max saturation of probes split across 2 base (rather than 2 base optimal or 2 base max saturation), his income will be way ahead of the terran player.
The issue isn't economy, it's resources mined. The protoss player's income will get ahead, but only a little bit before a timing push-- most of the time, the terran had the mule advantage while the protoss was still on 1 base.
This is why stalling makes the protoss stronger.
The longer you stall, the more time is spent with the protoss having the stronger economy than the terran, and the less time (proportionally) was spent with the terran having a stronger economy with the protoss.
This build is built around stalling and getting that crucial time to get ahead in units. From what I can tell, it's solid, and the OP in these replays knows what he's doing. If I were you guys I'd give it a bit more credit.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2011 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:37 Irisa wrote:On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great He has Mules so its actually similar economy. He actually only has 1 Mule, singular, at a time... the income of 1-base maximum mineral saturation for terran is the same as (24 scvs, 1 mule) is the same as a 2-base protoss with the same number of mineral workers (12 probes on 1 min line, 12 on the other). If the protoss player reaches optimal saturation, which is 16 probes on each minline, he'll have 50% more mineral income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. If he reaches full saturation, 24 probes on each minline, he'll have about 70% more income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. This means that, unless the protoss player cuts probes so he has 1 base max saturation of probes split across 2 base (rather than 2 base optimal or 2 base max saturation), his income will be way ahead of the terran player. The issue isn't economy, it's resources mined. The protoss player's income will get ahead, but only a little bit before a timing push-- most of the time, the terran had the mule advantage while the protoss was still on 1 base. This is why stalling makes the protoss stronger. The longer you stall, the more time is spent with the protoss having the stronger economy than the terran, and the less time (proportionally) was spent with the terran having a stronger economy with the protoss. This build is built around stalling and getting that crucial time to get ahead in units. From what I can tell, it's solid, and the OP in these replays knows what he's doing. If I were you guys I'd give it a bit more credit.
Stalling may make the protoss stronger, but all the investment in tech means the pay off point for said expansion is even further into the future than it would already be. We aren't denying that it COULD work, just seems to be an overly tech heavy, coinflippy (do you or do you not have detection) defense when other less risky builds are emerging (phoenix immo, also has the advantage of observers). The true issue now with 1-1-1 is not the strength of the push in a Vacuum, it's scouting it early enough to get up the standard response in enough strength to hold it. Which the quick phoenix helps with.
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I think the most comical thing about this build (I am by no means knocking it... I honestly love it) is that it's responding to a 1-1-1 by a kind of "Protoss 1-1-1". Yeah you're going down a bunch of different tech paths, but frankly so is the Terran and he has a smaller gas income than the Protoss due to being on only one base.
Obviously the biggest key to making this work is to ensure that a 1-1-1 is coming. I know that in pretty much every game I play against Terran I open up with the "Huk 20 food 1gate FE" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223726) and I've been having much success with it against bio, but I hadn't really figured out how to deal with the 1-1-1.
This seems like a promising way of going about it. Ironically, I'm in the middle of working on a DT/Phoenix build for PvZ... But it still seems fairly effective against Terran as well which I find kind of surprising.
I think the Stargate is the absolute key in dealing with the 1-1-1, as it shuts down the Banshees and the Ravens at the same time. I almost wonder if instead of going twilight tech if going something crazy like double robo for obs + immortals would be effective... As you could basically spend all your gas producing Phoenix and Immortals, and excess minerals on Zealots.
Great idea man, and even if I don't use your exact build, it's shown me that Stargate is incredibly incredibly good vs the 1-1-1, as in the games you posted the DTs did do a good amount of work, but it was the Phoenixes that really kept a keen eye on the unit composition of the Terrans in each instance.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On October 01 2011 05:42 Vyce wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 01 2011 04:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:37 Irisa wrote:On September 29 2011 11:51 Trusty wrote:On September 29 2011 11:42 j0ker wrote:
dont see this being solid. smart terrans usually will get an engie bay + a turret against phoenix play, as well as adding a viking from their starport to prevent phoenix poking. viking plus marine makes the hopes of your phoenix killing his raven pretty lofty. suiciding them in doesnt really work as he has pdd and the dps from marines is insane. he will have scvs to repair as well. your stalker count is going to be tiny because of dt and stargate tech, so they hope of sniping it with those is gone. because of your dual tech, his push is going to crush you and even if you manage to get him in a situation with no detection he will be able to raise his depots, throw a turret at his ramp, and either suicide his army against every one of your probes or walk home and take a few losses. the next push will come with another raven(assuming u picked it off...if not, you died) and a ghost or 2, and the terran will have had a better economy in the time between the 2 pushes. he has a worse economy, we're on 2 bases. Stalling a 1-1-1 when you've FE'd is always great He has Mules so its actually similar economy. He actually only has 1 Mule, singular, at a time... the income of 1-base maximum mineral saturation for terran is the same as (24 scvs, 1 mule) is the same as a 2-base protoss with the same number of mineral workers (12 probes on 1 min line, 12 on the other). If the protoss player reaches optimal saturation, which is 16 probes on each minline, he'll have 50% more mineral income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. If he reaches full saturation, 24 probes on each minline, he'll have about 70% more income than a 1-base fully-saturated terran player. This means that, unless the protoss player cuts probes so he has 1 base max saturation of probes split across 2 base (rather than 2 base optimal or 2 base max saturation), his income will be way ahead of the terran player. The issue isn't economy, it's resources mined. The protoss player's income will get ahead, but only a little bit before a timing push-- most of the time, the terran had the mule advantage while the protoss was still on 1 base. This is why stalling makes the protoss stronger. The longer you stall, the more time is spent with the protoss having the stronger economy than the terran, and the less time (proportionally) was spent with the terran having a stronger economy with the protoss. This build is built around stalling and getting that crucial time to get ahead in units. From what I can tell, it's solid, and the OP in these replays knows what he's doing. If I were you guys I'd give it a bit more credit. Stalling may make the protoss stronger, but all the investment in tech means the pay off point for said expansion is even further into the future than it would already be. We aren't denying that it COULD work, just seems to be an overly tech heavy, coinflippy (do you or do you not have detection) defense when other less risky builds are emerging (phoenix immo, also has the advantage of observers). The true issue now with 1-1-1 is not the strength of the push in a Vacuum, it's scouting it early enough to get up the standard response in enough strength to hold it. Which the quick phoenix helps with.
I... I might disagree with "coinflippy" assertion with regards to detection. This build has excellent scouting, first off, and secondly, getting cloak for banshees when 1-1-1ing eats quite a bit into your gas-- gas that could have been a raven. Also, there's room in this build for forge and a cannon. I'm not sure without seeing it in action though.
Again, I'd like to see replays against that specific stuff, but it doesn't seem to me like it's a coin-flip or the protoss is at a particular disadvantage. This build is basically
1) DTs
2) Kill Ravens if they exist.
Normally DTs aren't solid against a fast starport, but in this case they may be.
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On October 01 2011 06:03 Blazinghand wrote:
I... I might disagree with "coinflippy" assertion with regards to detection. This build has excellent scouting, first off, and secondly, getting cloak for banshees when 1-1-1ing eats quite a bit into your gas-- gas that could have been a raven. Also, there's room in this build for forge and a cannon. I'm not sure without seeing it in action though.
I disagree with the "coinflippy" situation here. The build has indeed excellent scouting options but like I had mentioned in my first post already, the scouting simply comes to late for fast cloaked on banshees.
While many 1-1-1 variations are not going for cloak since they know that most protoss go for a quick robo in this circumstance anyways and need to make at least 2 obs to be safe vs cloak, if they indeed do go for cloak it's instant loss. Did you ever have to play against 2 fast cloaked banshees and your robo is just starting? They get sooooo many kills, you can gg out. I remember some master league terran posting on TL about what he thinks is the most efficient 1-1-1 allin version (he even made a youtube video about it) which includes fast cloak with 2 banshees (one coming to the main mineral line and one coming to the natural in which case you need 2 obs or one canon each at least if you don't want to lose like 10probes each and thereby having no eco to defend his afterpush.
Cloak does cost 200gas but if they go for cloak they usually skip the raven (also 200gas). So maybe you can somehow equal out the losses by killing a whole ton with your own dts like I had mentioned in my last post.
The problem about fitting in that early forge is simply a push that comes earlier. Be it a 8-8:30min ghost/stim/+1 attack timing push of one base (which you can make look like a 1-1-1, be honest apart from seeing the 2nd marine and the bunker with marines in it and maybe couting the dmg your poking stalker takes from the bunker ... you don't really get any information until you either have an obs in his base or a phoenix or hallu or he is already pushing at you).
While this doesn't seem to be common atm (it's way more common for terran in this circumstance atm to just to go gasless 1rax fe into 10min 2 ghost push of 2base) I personally ran into several marine-tank pushes that push out with 2-3 tanks around 8min. If you have just invested in a nexus, more probes, a stargate (with like 1-2 phoenix out max at that time), a twilight + dark shrine, a forge and 2 canons (which only help you with detection and harass but not vs a frontal push) ... you are so screwed. I tried to go for 1gate fe into quick robo + forge and get my +1 armor asap as a counter to 1-1-1 lately, then adding more gates etc and if you don't play someone on a super big map and delay there push (forcing them to siege a few times) you simply don't have the units when you put down a forge and started +1 armor. It's possible to hold with the things I just described (big map + delaying enough and afterwards you are in perfect shape to win the game as long as you don't screw it up) but most ladder maps are not too big and they have close spawning positions, so I don't recommend it doing on these maps. However in this case, you invested into 2 more canons, twilight and dark shrine already (stargate instead of robo is about same cost) but you can even cb out immos out of robo and use vs this push while your phoenix are in too low count to snipe out tanks, they will die to the marines before they can kill a single one. But maybe the same principle can apply here and you simply lose your natural etc but kill his forces with dts (I'm pretty sure he won't have a lot of scans saved). They bring scvs with this push and could make turrets, but they won't have an engineering bay up mostly, so you could hold it. Against the marine/stim/+1/ghost timing of one base however you are just screwed. He has oc, engineering bay and emp from ghsots to detect. Apart from that he has the absolut perfect unit composition vs your units and didn't invest in as much tech as you and not in an expansion, he will just outright kill you.
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Jus gas steal and no more worries on cloaked banshee
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whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified
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Scouting with the Stalker is super riscy. If he went for 2 Racks FE he's just going to kill it and attack you afterwards ;|
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On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified
I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS!
Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in.
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On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in.
turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold.
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On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold.
...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1...
Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units.
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On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units.
im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings.
and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon
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On October 02 2011 03:31 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units. im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings. and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon
You're cutting marines?
Don't you know the biggest part of the 1/1/1 is the reactored marines? I don't think you understand what he means by lack of detection. He doesn't NEED to kill your main. He's going to snipe your raven (if you have one) and force you to use scans (which means no mules, which means terran IS ALL IN COMPLETELY). If you delay to build an ebay, that still doesn't matter because you'd have to slow push while building turrets. This build is all about stalling. The more you stall, the more your income pays off, meaning the more units you can get out.
He's not going to send 5 DTs at once into your entire army rofl. He's going to send one at a time and force you to continuously scan, so you have no mule. All the time you waste stopping and scanning means more time for him to get units.
The problem I have with this build is the cloak banshees. I would suggest a gas steal always... but they could still get cloak. Depending on the timing, if your forge or robo isn't up in time you basically auto lose.
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On October 02 2011 03:31 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units. im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings. and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon
What do you think comes after this dt phoenix? Chargelot archon ________ anything. They get chargelots as they EAT through tank pushes, and marines without upgrades. Hence why delaying your 1-1-1 push to get turrets, and less marines means he has MORE time to get charge, and two bases of excess minerals to spend on zealots.
And, I'm sure if you start turreting, he cuts pheonix as they ALREADY did damage without killing anything. DT become archon, and he crushes push and wins, or takes a third, and harasses with DTs and just rolls over you with double chrono forges.
That's how that turreting would go.
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On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 03:42 Fairwell wrote:
Your style really seems very interesting to me, especially since I love using phoenix and dts. However, I'm really concerned about two things:
1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec.
aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time.
2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win).
Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base.
I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1.
As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine. I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble.
That's not when it finished in the replay. The FASTEST you can have dts on one base is 6:30 and you expanded, made a stargate, some phoenix, and a robo. The terran had about 1.5 minutes where he could have attacked freely and you had nothing to stop him. He had another 2 minutes to make an ebay once he saw the first DT before you broke into his base. This is a super effective strategy agaisnt a 1/1/1 that hits after 9 minutes, but not one hat hits at 7:30. Additionally, when I see a protoss expand that fast and I am planning on a standard 1/1/1, I just don't make any banshees and throw down an armory instead and make 1 medivac to quickly shuttle my second thor across the map and heal my marines. If you expand that fast, all you are going to have are sentries when the first Thor with 8 scvs and a dozen marines arrives at your base... how would you deal with that? (I play random, so again, I'm looking for ways to stop my own build, not being critical)
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On October 02 2011 03:44 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 03:31 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 03:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 02:56 Soulish wrote:On October 02 2011 01:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 02 2011 01:05 Soulish wrote:
whats keeping him from spending 225 and getting a turret by his bunker line? sure he will have less marines but then ur dts are nullified I didn't know turrets shot dark templars... THANKS! Oh wait, wrong. We pull every single marine, and every single tank, and usually 2/3 the SCVs when we all in 1-1-1. Protecting the mineral line is almost a waste. He dropped zeals in my base the game we played, so I just pulled every scv and went completely all in. turrets detect dark templars so you don't need ravens, therefore all that money you spent on phoenix is wasted and so is the money you spent on dt's since dt's are trash if they're detected. The thing is, if he puts dt's in your main, he has less at his main, therefore you can spare units in your main to protect mineral line. 1 turret in mineral line and turrets where your push is will stop this build cold. ...how can you put turrets as you push? The key to 1-1-1 is a crisp timing. By delaying for an ebay, you're cutting scvs. You're delaying the push. Toss is on two bases. You are not. Turreting as you push is not feasible. Fuck, sometimes you can barely handle the toss with all scvs, and a complete all in 1-1-1... Turrets as you push.. What a joke. I'd really like to see that in practice. And 1 turret doesn't shut down any phoenix harass in your main. Also, phoenix can lift your tanks. Lifted tanks cannot shoot. You will not have the units to deal with his attack. DTs aren't exactly weak... They aren't the only units. im not cutting scvs, I'm cutting marines to make turrets.and since you're going phoenix dt's the turret acts as a hardcounter to both. the push comes at the same time a normal push would except with less marines. Your phoenix can't do anything, pray tell me how 5 dt's can survive marine tank banshee, even if all the tanks were lifted and the banshees were getting shut down. and I'm not talking about phoenix harass in main (although it would be good if you were in my main because that means no phoenix to shoot down my raven and your dts become easy pickings. and dt's are really, really, weak when detectd. you're better off making them into archon You're cutting marines? Don't you know the biggest part of the 1/1/1 is the reactored marines? I don't think you understand what he means by lack of detection. He doesn't NEED to kill your main. He's going to snipe your raven (if you have one) and force you to use scans (which means no mules, which means terran IS ALL IN COMPLETELY). If you delay to build an ebay, that still doesn't matter because you'd have to slow push while building turrets. This build is all about stalling. The more you stall, the more your income pays off, meaning the more units you can get out. He's not going to send 5 DTs at once into your entire army rofl. He's going to send one at a time and force you to continuously scan, so you have no mule. All the time you waste stopping and scanning means more time for him to get units. The problem I have with this build is the cloak banshees. I would suggest a gas steal always... but they could still get cloak. Depending on the timing, if your forge or robo isn't up in time you basically auto lose.
I don't think you understand. Sure, when the 1/1/1 is used against most strats the marines are the most important part. However, this isn't a normal strat: it's dt/phoenix. The strat HINGES upon the fact that the dt's remain invisible, because once they get detected they're as good as dead. That's why in this specific instance you can cut some marines and get a turret in your main, and 1~2 during your push. In this case, there would be no raven to snipe which equals more banshees, more tanks, and even a little bit more marines.
I won't have to slow push while building turrets. I would siege up right in his main since his army can't directly oppose mine, and save two scans and use them in case he tries to kill the turret before it completes. Once the turret completes I can put another turret at the fringes of the detection for the first turret, and voila, I can now attack his main and his dt's cant do anything.
You misinterpreted my part about 5 dt's: once you have a turret up, the other player can't send 1 by 1 dt's anymore; it's all or nothing.
And know what I can get by skipping the raven in favour of turrets? cloak.
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...You act as if he won't build ANYTHING but phoenix and DT. I'm sure he gets some stalkers, and zealots. With a probe pull, phoenix dt stalker zealot with 1-2 sentries can stop that push, with ease, before the turrets are up..
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On October 02 2011 08:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:
...You act as if he won't build ANYTHING but phoenix and DT. I'm sure he gets some stalkers, and zealots. With a probe pull, phoenix dt stalker zealot with 1-2 sentries can stop that push, with ease, before the turrets are up..
well excuse me for basing my argument around your thread topic. -_-
and how many sentries and stalkers do you think you can get when you go phoenix dt?
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On October 02 2011 08:42 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 08:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:
...You act as if he won't build ANYTHING but phoenix and DT. I'm sure he gets some stalkers, and zealots. With a probe pull, phoenix dt stalker zealot with 1-2 sentries can stop that push, with ease, before the turrets are up.. well excuse me for basing my argument around your thread topic. -_- and how many sentries and stalkers do you think you can get when you go phoenix dt?
Well, the game I played against him, when I pushed he had a warp prism, 5-6 stalkers, 4-5 sentries, DT warp in soon, with I believe 3-4 phoenix. I push no raven, 1 banshee, marine tank about 8-9 min, so a delayed 1-1-1? He's going to have a nice army, and possibly charge + chargelots, with DT into archon if he sees a raven, or mass banshees.
Any delay is you losing more, he's on two base, with whole tech tree almost opened.
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On September 29 2011 06:59 phantaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 06:50 QTIP. wrote:On September 29 2011 06:44 phantaxx wrote:
Idea of the Build
This build exploits the fact that the only way for a T to detect when 1 basing you is to have a Raven, or scans from 1 Orbital Command. The Phoenixes have no problem taking out the Raven leaving T with only scans as a detection method, allowing you to rip their army apart with DTs and also harass their base.
MC tried this very idea vs Puma at IEM and failed. Though he sniped the Raven, Puma simply built another one, and kept a nice thick cloud of marines under it the entire game. MC's DT tech never paid off. I question the viability of this strategy against smart Terran players who are well aware of that they can lose to unexpected DTs. If I am remembering the same game, MC used blink stalkers to try to take out the Raven, which are less mobile and it is much more difficult to take out a raven with them. I've tried blink stalkers as well, it doesn't work, but Phoenixes are a different thing. I've practiced this against T's who know what I am doing, and they cannot keep their ravens alive. I've even seen T's make 2 Ravens and I can still snipe them with Phoenixes.
Yeah i think this build is viable maybe if you can somehow incorperate charge into it.. Marines are too good and his marine count will get higher/ he can expand and go for a timing push around 11-12 minutes with stim. Dt's are good but if your double teching your main army is never really bulky as it's really fragile to paly this way.
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EPT
