EPT[G] PvT holding the 1-1-1 with Phoenix DT - Page 2
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phaleos
Australia105 Posts
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casualman
United States1198 Posts
On September 29 2011 13:00 phaleos wrote: Lol what if terran doesn't stops the 1-1-1 and just forgo the attack to take natural? YOu do realize pheonix DT is like ALOT of gas investment and your main army will be tiny right? It is, but if the terran chooses to expand both phoenixes and dts are great harassment units and P can make T's life hell. Besides, dt production can be stopped as soon as P scouts the expansion, and protoss can transition into high templar or a phoenix/colossus composition. Also, your post actually makes 0 sense because a terran taking his expansion is unlikely to attack in this situation as if he wanted to attack making more barracks and pumping more marines would be a much smarter choice. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
Thats the only thing that scares me | ||
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n3ac3y
United States108 Posts
Does this build handle the reactor barracks siege tank push yet? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6228 Posts
I am a bit worried though. I feel almost certain there would be a faster all-in that looks like 1-1-1 to your stalker which would snap you in the gaping chasm between your investment and payoff. A nexus, twilight, stargate and shrine all at once is a ridiculous amount of money that's not becoming units, and so early... In fact I'd be pretty sure there'd even be a reactive modification to the 1-1-1 which could hit that timing. What were your losses to, and have you tested this against a solid T practice partner trying to beat it off 1-1-1? | ||
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ins(out)side
220 Posts
I'm currently playing around with 2 gate robo expand and upon confirming 1-1-1 throwing down a stargate to produce some phoenix. Still got lots of work to do but in principal, the experimentation with a new build is whats most important. Your build, along with the PvZ gateway forge build found here are the kinds of build innovating that all Protoss players need to emulate and contribute their 2 cents to, should we ever hope to pull out of the slump we are currently in as a race. | ||
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phantaxx
United States201 Posts
On September 29 2011 14:00 n3ac3y wrote: Phantaxx didn't we play an epic 1v1 base trade game in metal 2 weeks ago tl open? TvP? Does this build handle the reactor barracks siege tank push yet? Yeah I think I remember that game, my build is a bit different since then though I used to try to get a warp prism as well to drop DTs into the main if I couldn't get in any other way, so the other tech was slightly delayed, but now I think it should hold marine tank because I get my DT shrine much earlier, I haven't tested that specifically but based on the timings I'm pretty confident on it. | ||
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phantaxx
United States201 Posts
On September 29 2011 14:15 Belisarius wrote: Nice build, I'd never have thought of going for that much tech at once. I am a bit worried though. I feel almost certain there would be a faster all-in that looks like 1-1-1 to your stalker which would snap you in the gaping chasm between your investment and payoff. A nexus, twilight, stargate and shrine all at once is a ridiculous amount of money that's not becoming units, and so early... In fact I'd be pretty sure there'd even be a reactive modification to the 1-1-1 which could hit that timing. What were your losses to, and have you tested this against a solid T practice partner trying to beat it off 1-1-1? I think if an all in comes fast enough that DTs are not ready yet, then T will have sacrificed enough economy that going up your ramp and just staying safe with FF will put you in a good position, the tech might be a bit slower because I think it would be fine, I will have to test it sometime. My losses so far have been 1 where I forgot to take my 3rd and 4th gasses and massively delayed my tech, and 1 where I completely wasn't paying attention and he got to my base without me realizing he had left. | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Force engagements with pure stalker - aim Raven. If PDD drops, blink out. If he pushes without PDD, suicide blink 6 stalkers to kill raven, send in dt's one by one (1 dt, 1 scan). | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10329 Posts
Reminds me of corsair DT Bisu vs Savior lol About the transition if he scouts you and just expands instead of all-in: Instead of getting colossus, why not just go chargelot Phoenix and maybe/later archons and even later HT? You already got the twilight and dark shrine. Plus Chargelot Phoenix Archon proved to be quite good, used by Liquid Hero vs MKP in WCG | ||
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Vyce
New Zealand147 Posts
The other issue that springs to mind is if the Terran catches wind of the complete lack of detection, he just researches cloak on his banshees and suddenly you have to invest even more gas into robo/obs. On a big map, where you have plenty of time to whittle down the Terran's army with single dt's forcing scans or chopping reinforcements down as the trail out towards the main ball of doom this strategy may well be viable, but on a few of the smaller maps i feel that it may not be possible to do enough harass damage before he gets into a position where you have to break the army in order for it to be viable. That and the lack of ability to tech up to quick Colo for whatever follow up comes after the initial push makes me leery of trying it (see Huk vs Virus g1 group d Gsl sept - whilst not 1-1-1, the mass marine follow-up just killed Huk after a near perfect first hold) | ||
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Gamma4
Australia75 Posts
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brz
United States42 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
I reevaluated what I said, come to think of it I think this is too elegant a solution. If I scouted gas, then was walled in and with poke only saw marine, I would just continue to 4gate and push after 2 warpins. He's gotta be teching | ||
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rale
United States40 Posts
Your first phoenix arrives, and you see the 2nd orbital and 2 more rax going down. There are lots of marines to deal with phoenix, and with 2 orbitals for scans, you won't be able to make enough DTs to stop him from just walking over and killing your natural, since your main army will be tiny. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec. aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time. 2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win). Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base. I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1. | ||
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IrOnKaL
United States340 Posts
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phantaxx
United States201 Posts
On September 30 2011 03:42 Fairwell wrote: Your style really seems very interesting to me, especially since I love using phoenix and dts. However, I'm really concerned about two things: 1. What if your opponent goes for 2 cloaked banshees right away (one to your main and one to your nat) and then pushes out for the allin around 11min? Your phoenix won't be in his base in time to check for cloak research, fast cloak finishes around 7:30min which means a robo needs to be startet around the 6min mark (or slightly before) since robo takes 65sec and obs with one cb takes 30 (instead of 40) sec. aTnSocke used to open with 1gate stargate into 2 fast phoenix for a while vs terran whenever he didn't scout fe from the terran with his initial scouting. His phoenix were there in time to scout for techlab research on starport for cloak (robo + obs is in time then, old phoenix build time required you to send in your 1st phoenix asap while now on blizzard map pool they build so quickly that you can wait for 2 and still have detection in time) but since you fe first your stargate is delayed and you won't be able to scout that in time. 2. What if your opponent goes for some kind of one base stim/+1 marine/ghost push around 8-8:30min? If they make a bunker which they don't need (they will scout four fe and have more than enough units to defend anything you could throw at them with this at that point of time), it looks exactly like a 1-1-1 to you until your 1st phoenix sees his base. He can then proceed to just kill you (like 2 turrets or similar in his base) and just push out. He will have engineering bay early enough, he will have emp to suplement his push apart from scanning vs dts, he will have stimmed marines which will roll over any phoenix and your super small ground army. He can easily finish the game, not only kill your natural (scan highground, emp, stim, push up, win). Even though phoenix will kinda force some turrets from the terran which help him out with the dts (especially if he didn't intend to allin and just wanted to open 1-1-1 harass into cc), I absolutely like getting phoenix in this case since they shut down any banshee harass, give you full map control which he can't contest with his small ground army, gives you harass possibilities and very good scouting information as well. They help you warp in dts on highground and can still do a ton of dmg, since he won't cover every point with turrets in his base. I'd love to hear your opinions on these two issues I'm having with this build since I must admit that I absolutely love your idea of handling 1-1-1. As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine. I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On September 30 2011 09:54 phantaxx wrote: As for the cloaked banshees, 7:30 is also about when my dark shrine finishes, so I think that might be an okay position to be in, banshees run out of cloak eventually but DTs don't. Just my initial thought but if it ends up being an advantage for T after having tested it, there is extra minerals in this build so a forge with a couple of cannons is reasonable, which should deal with cloak just fine. I'll have to test more to figure out how I could deal with a ghost stim timing, I think that may give phoenix DT some trouble. DT's can get walled out of a base, banshee's cant (destroys all your probes). I really think you need to somehow work in a Robo in time for cloak. | ||
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