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United States8476 Posts
These are the most common questions I find asked about Protoss both in the Protoss question thread and general TL thread. Most of these suggestions are from my old posts, but I’d added a lot to make it more complete. Make sure you look in here before asking any new questions regarding Protoss matchups.
General
Recommend me one basic build versus each race.
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PvT
How do I defend a 1-1-1 with marine tank banshee?
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How do I defend a 2 port banshee attack?
+ Show Spoiler +In order to defend this attack, it is essential that you scout it out. There is no other way. If you don't scout it or kill it very early, there is no hope of beating it. Ways to scout it include gateway pressure, stargate, pressure, but most commonly an observer. Any build that does not incorporate any of these is close to an autoloss versus the 2 port banshee build.
Now, once you scout the 2 port banshee, this is what you do:
Immediately throw up a stargate and a forge. Make only enough stalkers to fend off his initial banshee harass and then cut stalkers entirely. Constantly chornoboost phoenix out of your stargate and throw up ~5 cannons at your front. Make only zealots and sentries from now on, but don't overdo the sentries. ~3 is perfectly fine. Cut probes accordingly around 35 if you don't scout a command center.
In my experienced opinion, this is the only way to fend off the 2 port banshee allin if you're on 2 base.
How do I defend against drops?
+ Show Spoiler +The key is vision. That is, observers, spotting pylons, and watch towers. The obvious benefit of this is that you can spot drops incoming. However, if you have vision of his army, you can correctly position your troops to accordingly defend both his army and any potential drops. For example, if you see his army far away from your base, you don’t need to keep your entire army at your front. Instead, put it in probable drop locations.
Another option is pressure. A believable fake allin will sometimes keep your opponent contained in his base. He will be afraid to send anymore than 1 medivac out to harass, which is a manageable amount.
Notice how I didn’t mention anything about units. Blink stalkers, chargelots, templar(with or without storm), and dts all do fairly well versus drops and almost any unit composition you go will be able to defend against drops.
How do I scout terran with gas before observers can come out?
+ Show Spoiler +Firstly, you want to identify all the builds your opponent can do with a gas. The prominent ones include 1 rax fe, 2 rax with reactor/tech lab, 3 rax, or a factory/tech build. These factory/tech builds could include cloaked banshee, marine tank allin, thor allin, or some type of hellion build. I'd say these are the primary builds you want to look out for. Now with every little piece of information you get, you want to cross off possibilities based on this information. For example, if you see a maruder, you will most likely want to consider tech builds as much less likely.
Now for actual scouting tips. The first thing you want to look for is whether he builds a rax or a depot after his first marine. The standard 2 rax build builds a rax before a 2nd depot, so if you see a depot being built, 2 rax will be less likely. Keep in mind, however, that your opponent can still cancel the depot. Next, the most important part is that you want to keep your initial scouting probe alive as he can get you a lot of information. Poke around his ramp and see what's guarding the bottom of the ramp. If you see a marauder, then you know it's a tech lab build, most likely 1 rax fe, but could be 3 rax or a tech lab 2 rax push. If you see 2 marines early, you know it's a tech build, because every other build adds an addon immediately. This also tells you that you can poke around with your initial stalker and harass him. If you see just one marine, you can choose to run past the marine and either see what addon he has on his barracks or what other units he has on the top of his ramp. If he has no units at the bottom of his ramp, feel free to poke up and have a look and make a judgement call off of that. Even if you see just marines, you can get a lot of information from that, because tech builds go for factory and then reactor later on the rax while a standard 2 rax gets the reactor right after the first marine. Thus, a tech build will have a gradual build up of marines while a 2 rax will just have one early and then 2 at a time.
PvZ
How do I deal with a 6 pool with a gateway first build?
+ Show Spoiler +The best way to defend if you scout it early is to throw up a 2nd gateway and a 2nd pylon to block. Chornoboost zealots out right away and pull probes along with your first 3 zealots to fight his lings. This video shows what I mean. An alternative is to throw up a forge asap and wall with a pylon. Defend with a cannon asap. This option leaves less room for error, but also doesn’t get you as far ahead as the 2nd gateway option. The only situation where you could be in danger is if you scout the zerg last on a 4 player/4 possible spawn map and opened gateway first. You best option there is to double pylon your gateway, don’t let your gateway get unpowered, and try to not engage unless he’s attacking your pylon until your first zealot pops out.
How do I deal with a 6 pool with a forge first build?
+ Show Spoiler +On big 4 player maps with 4 spawn locations, you must both pylon scout and 13 forge scout to be safe versus a 6 pool. Once you scout the 6 pool coming, cut a probe to put a pylon in your main and make a cannon in your base asap. Then, go gateway, gas, core, gas as you would a normal game. Scout your opponent's base. Specifically, look for the existence of a natural, how much gas he's mined, and the existence of a lair/roach warren/baneling nest. If you scout any big tech off 1 base, obviously prepare for that accordingly, usually with 4 gate 2 gas. If there is no gas or a late gas, it is safe to expand off of just a zealot and a stalker and be safe. If you scout fast gas and an expansion, you will have to go for a slower 3 gate sentry expand. In any situation, as long as you react accordingly, you will be ahead. Example vod
What is a standard forge fast expand build order?
+ Show Spoiler +Generally, these are the standards. There are many variations however, depending on the map and what you scout.
If you can confirm 14 pool or later:
15 nexus, 15 forge, resume probe production, ~ 17 pylon, ~18 cannon, gateway
If you cannot or you scout a <14 pool, but >10 pool
13 forge, 17 nexus, 18 cannon, 18 gateway, 18 pylon
Usually, gateway before cannon is safe, however.
What's the difference between 15 nexus and 13 forge 17 nexus?
+ Show Spoiler +Nexus first is more economical. 13 forge 17 nex is always safe while blind 15 nex is not safe. If you scout 14 pool or later on all ffe maps, you can safely go nexus first. Depending on the map and the timing of the pool, 15 nexus may or may not be safe verus pools earlier than 14.
How do I place buildings for a forge fast expand?
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How do I punish a 15 hatch?
+ Show Spoiler +15 hatch is actually somewhat safe versus protoss. The 2 reasons high level zergs don't do it often are as follows:
1. You normally can't get the 15 hatch down before a probe comes to your natural and tries to block it.
2. Cannon rushes can be very deadly versus 15 hatch. You usually need to commit a drone scout or drone block to be somewhat safe versus cannon rushes.
With gateway first versus 15 hatch and a late gas,, you can chornoboost stalkers out, gain map control, and force lings or spines. With forge first, if your opponent isn’t blocking his ramp properly or isn’t watching your probe well, you can attempt a cannon rush. However, both of these options are dependent on your opponent, so in reality, there’s no reliably consistent way to punish a 15 hatch.
How do I scout a zerg in the early-mid game?
+ Show Spoiler +If you want to play a macro game versus a zerg, you must scout him. Scout his tech, his drone count, his base count, his unit composition, his army size and his available tech. There are a few ways to accomplish this.
1. Robo for observers: In my opinion, this is the worst option, as even if you scout certain builds, you're either too late to respond to them or cannot aggressively punish greedy builds.
2. Hallucination: hallucinated phoenix are a great way to constantly scout your opponent.
3. Stargate: This is a form of light pressure. With either voidray or phenoix, you are both pressuring and scouting at the same time.
4. Pressure: This technique scouts your opponent by pressuring his base and seeing what he reacts with. You may not get to see everything, but as you get better at the game and develop better game sense, you will be able to make more and more reads from pressure scouting.
How do I defend roach ling allin with a 1 gate expansion?
+ Show Spoiler +There are 4 ways to defend a roach ling allin with a 1 gate expand:
1. Fast voidrays, put up a stargate right after nexus.
2. Fast dts, put up a twilight council right after your nexus. You will take damage from the roach ling attack. You also probably won't survive the earliest most allin versions. However, as long as you survive long enough, you should be able to do a ton of damage to your opponent, because he won't have an evo or lair.
3. Fast forge into preemptive cannons
4. Preemptive chornoboosted stalker/sentry off of 4+ gateways
How do I defend roach ling allin with a 3 gate expansion?
+ Show Spoiler +3 gate expand is still viable. Here are a few tips to help you survive these roach ling attacks.
1. Sim city. Use your buildings to protect you so that you have as few paths to your army as possible. This is usually with 2 pylons and a forge or 2 pylons and a 4th gateway.
2. Do not overly rely on cannons. Cannons are good, but the problem is timing. Roach ling attacks can hit anywhere between 7:00 and 7:50. Even if hits at 7:50, the latest time possible, your cannon with a standard 3 gate expand will just be finishing.
3. Perfect forcefields. Pretty obvious advice, but I'm just reinforcing it.
4. Constant unit production. Do not skimp on units. Keep pumping stalker/sentry as much as you can. This is probably the biggest problem with the roach ling attack. Before it became popular, you could transition to stargate or get a quick robo safely. While you still somewhat can, it leaves you very open to roach ling allins.
5. Reinforce with stalkers. Once you see the attack coming, making nothing but stalkers. Sentries don't do enough dps and they come with only one forcefield. On the other hand, zealots are great versus lings but you want to rely on sim city and forcefields versus lings instead of zealots. Of course, if you have only few minerals and tons of gas, a sentry or 2 doesn't hurt.
6. Do not cut probes if you don't have to. That is, you want to focus on making units, but with extra minerals keep pumping probes. You can judge how allin the roach ling attack is by the timing. The later attacks are simply pressure while the early attacks are more allin. Even if you defend a 7:50 roach ling attack, you can still fall behind, because you cut so many probes during the attack.
7. Chornoboost gateways. Again, pretty obvious one.
Some example games include MC vs Idra from a few MLGs ago and Huk vs DRG on crossfire from the recent AOL.
What are the advantages of a stargate followup after a forge fast expand?
+ Show Spoiler +- It's rather effective at stopping early roach allins, however rare they are.
- It lets you take map control.
- It limits the zerg's unit composition. They have to have something to attack air, so for example pure roach/baneling drop is no longer an option.
- It kills scouting overlords and leaves zerg in the dark.
- The biggest reason: It's very flexible. There are a lot of followups possible; I can probably name 10 off the top of my head. This, combined with killing scouting overlords, forces zerg to prepare for a number of things so they may not react as optimally to what you're doing.
How do I deal with mutas?
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously, you want cannons, and stalker/templar/archons are good versus muta, but here are some less obvious tips versus mutas. - Pressure. Mutas are not very good fighting units and even if you can't kill your opponent by pressuring, you force spines and delay the mutas from reaching your base.
- Don't go reactive stargates for phoenix. If you already have a stargate and a few phenoix on the field, keep making phoenix. However, if you don't have stargate, go for the blink stalker/templar route instead. If you try to get reactive phoenix, you will get overwhelmed by zerg production and superior economy.
- Do not get caught making collosi while your opponent is transitioning into mutas. The worst feeling in the world is seeing ~8 muta in your mineral line as your first collosi is halfway done. A way to do this is to make sure no spire is building/completed as your put up your robo bay.
- When you move out, keep one templar in each mineral line to deter harass.
Also, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788
How do I deal an opponent once he gets infestor ling/roach broodlord?
+ Show Spoiler +The first way to deal with infestor broodlord with ground support is to abuse the imobility of his unit composition. Go around his army and attack an outlying base. Of course, this is only viable on very very large maps such as talderim altar. If your opponent plays correctly, it shouldn’t even be viable on a big map like Termius SE.
The unit composition you want to be aiming for is this following:
1. Some form of consistent AoE: You need either archons or collosi to kill broodlings or they will rack up too much damage. Templar do not work for this purpose, because you cannot keep perma storming no matter how many templar you have and storm hits your own units if you attemp to storm broodlings. Keep in mind though that archons can get neural'd rather easily.
2. Blink stalkers: This should be the core of your army.
3. Templar: this is optional, but a great help if you can get them. they cost not too much supply for how fast they kill ground units and they can feedback infestor and then turn into archons as well.
4. Upgrades: Unlike versus roach hydra where you can rely on forcefields and blink as your armor, armor/shield upgrades are actually very important versus broodlord/infestor. Lings and broodlings’ damage are greatly reduced by armor and forcefields and defensive blinks are close to useless as well.
Once your opponent gets 10+ broodlords, it can get impossible to engage your opponent directly with a ground based army. Thus, you will need to take to the air. The best transition to go from here is a mothership. Even without an archon toilet, mothership can give you the edge versus this composition. If you want to go even further, carriers can be a good addition to the deathball.
PvP
How do I defend a cannon rush?
+ Show Spoiler +You must scout this in time, preferably as his first proxy pylon is building. Immediately throw up your own forge. His first cannon will finish and there is usually nothing you can do about it as long as the cannon is not in range of your probes/buildings. Throw up a cannon between your buildings and his first cannon but not in range of the cannon. If he tries to throw up more than 1 cannon, keep throwing up cannons, either matching his cannon count or going over by 1. The key is to make sure your cannons win this cannon vs cannon fight. Whoever wins this will usually win this game. If you think it will be close, you can even pull probes to attack the cannons just so you get a small edge on cannon hp, even if you lose probes. If you think you can decisively win this cannon war without additional cannons, cancel your other cannons in production.
How do I defend proxy 2 gate?
+ Show Spoiler +Ideally, if you scout it in time, throw up a 2nd gateway yourself and chornoboost out zealots. Your better economy, combined with the rush distance to your base will allow you to defend..Pull enough probes so that you have a dps advantage over him. For example, if he brings one probe, pull 2 probes to fight him. If you don’t scout it in time, throw up a forge for a defensive cannon which covers your entire base. Then, transition into a 4 gate.
How do I defend a 4 gate?
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How do i beat the Adelscott 2 gate build?
+ Show Spoiler +Chronoboost your first gateway and kite his first few zealots that are walking toward your base. Sim city so that his zealots will have a hard time getting into your mineral line while your stalkers get free shots on them. Then, go for a delayed 4 gate for the win.
Changelog:
+ Show Spoiler +10/1/2011:
Edited section on how to deal with 6 pools with forge fe
Added a section on how to scout zerg
Added a section on how to deal with mutas
10/19/2011
Added a section on how to defend roach ling allin with 1 gate fe
11/04/2011
Added some additional info for the infestor/bl section.
11/10/2011
Added "What's the difference between 15 nexus and 13 forge 17 nexus?
11/22/2011
Linked rsvp's guide on how to deal with mutas.
2/7/2012
Added an example vod for how to defend 6 pool with forge fe build.
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Wow, this is really good. I actually thought about doing something similar but I'm lazy and you beat me to it XD. Thanks, 4kmonk.
EDIT:
I'll continue to update this post with comments, most of it is good but I'd like to add to some topics:
PvP cannon rush - throwing up your own forge and cannons is the best response if you don't happen to scout the cannon rush until the cannon is already going up and there's already pylons walling it in. However, you should be able to spot it coming before that happens - if a scouting probe enters your base and immediately leaves or you lose vision of it, that's a big sign of proxy shenanigans so follow it and check outside your base! This is especially important if you're playing on a map where there's a low ground area near your mineral line, such as metal, xel naga, antiga, and abyssal. On those maps it might even be a good idea to build your first pylon overlooking that low ground area to be able to spot a probe that puts down pylons/cannons there (since a cannon rusher will often send 2 probes, so they can keep the initial probe in your base and still have that 2nd probe build those pylons/cannons without you being aware of it). If you manage to spot it as they are just placing pylons down on low ground, getting a forge in response is not necessary, just immediately send some probes to kill the pylons and eventual cannons from warping in. Chrono out the first zealot, but don't delay your first stalker. Cut probes to be able to afford all of this.
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Canada13386 Posts
Great thread very helpful thanks Monk
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YES! Now I can learn protoss in bronze league ;D! This is actually really helpful, I'm going to bookmark it.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
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Awesome! Thanks, 4kmonk, this is really helpful.
A quick question -- is cannons of your own the best way to stop a cannon rush because you can't really count on getting a surround and killing his probe? I certainly believe you that it's the right response, I was just wondering why cannoning up your own base is better than clicking 4 probes on the pylon and chasing his probe. Sure, he can keep dropping pylons everywhere until you catch the probe, but it's not like defending warp-in pylons where if one finishes you lose immediately...
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Great thread....this will help a lot of people.
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This is such an amazing threads, gathering the random statements said all over teamliquid. Though i've read pretty much these things myself it's definetly nice to have them confirmed, and i'll recommend it to any Protoss newcomer. Very good job!
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Extremely helpful, well written thread here. I learned quite a bit here, and I highly appreciate you taking your time to write this stuff.
EDIT: It would be very helpful if you also linked to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=239954
about FFE building placements in GSL protosses. Even though it's an old thread, the wall-off should be consistent in most maps.
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This should remove like 90% of the questions in the Protoss D/H thread haha. Good job 
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thank you so much! as a plat protoss player i have had trouble with a lot of these issues.
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I would like to add that an alternative method for dealing with cannon rushes if you scout it as he throws down the first pylon or the first cannon out of range is throwing up a second gateway and pulling 4-5 probes to attack the first cannon while chronoing zealots. It allows you to pressure him in return after the cannon rush (not every player will leave immediately after you defend the cannons) much more easily.
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I wish this was reddit so I could upvote this awesome thread!
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Another awesome thread by 4kmonk
If I can add something about cannon rushes in PvZ, on tal darim and shakuras it is impossible for Z to hold off a cannon rush while going hatch first. Protoss always forge first and a pylon on the low ground will be impossible to kill.
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Thank you, sir! This is an excellent resource and should help reduce the repetition in the Protoss question thread.
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Good thread. This will definitely help many people =)
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Great thread!
On September 26 2011 10:21 Anihc wrote:
PvP cannon rush - throwing up your own forge and cannons is the best response if you don't happen to scout the cannon rush until the cannon is already going up and there's already pylons walling it in. However, you should be able to spot it coming before that happens - if a scouting probe enters your base and immediately leaves or you lose vision of it, that's a big sign of proxy shenanigans so follow it and check outside your base! This is especially important if you're playing on a map where there's a low ground area near your mineral line, such as metal, xel naga, antiga, and abyssal. On those maps it might even be a good idea to build your first pylon overlooking that low ground area to be able to spot a probe that puts down pylons/cannons there (since a cannon rusher will often send 2 probes, so they can keep the initial probe in your base and still have that 2nd probe build those pylons/cannons without you being aware of it). If you manage to spot it as they are just placing pylons down on low ground, getting a forge in response is not necessary, just immediately send some probes to kill the pylons and eventual cannons from warping in. Chrono out the first zealot, but don't delay your first stalker. Cut probes to be able to afford all of this.
How many probes do you send per pylon/cannon being built? 3 or 4?
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Awesome thread! I have a question though. What can I counter colossi with if its mid-late game besides colossi? I hate colossi war...
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On September 26 2011 10:09 4kmonk wrote:
Cut scvs accordingly around 35 if you don't scout a command center.
I hope you mean probes. 
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Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me.
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Just a thought on defending cannon rushes...
Depending on the cannon rush, I feel like sometimes expanding and abandoning your base is the only way to deal with it. If you can stop the initial probe/pylon with your own probes, that's ideal of course, but sometimes I get cannon rushed with the intial pylon/cannon(s) going unscouted in some corner or low ground of my base (a scouting error, but it happens).
This used to happen a lot on XNC, where the cannon rush is started on the natural low ground. In this case, if he's invested in a few cannons that aren't killing my probes yet, I like to send my zealot(s) to his base to do damage/force cannons, and save for another nexus.
Very situational, but there's times when throwing down my own forge in response just doesn't work, because I can't get a cannon in range to save my nexus. I feel like if my opponent made too many cannons/didn't tech, I can end up even or ahead (depending on my gateway timing and whether or not the Zealot(s) can deal any damage).
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This is an awesome thread *-*
Thank you for this
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Italy12246 Posts
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
Edit: also against hatch first it's quite viable to get a second gate at 16, cut probes, get a cyber and 2 fast stalkers asap and then resume as normal (yay for cecil's tutorial videos).
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Yay - Thx for the link monk!
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On September 27 2011 03:20 Teoita wrote:
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive to the lower leagues. This happened to me yesterday, I was playing a master's guy and he completely tricked me with it. The worst part is that I scouted a TL Rax and a Reactor rax, and just BARELY missed the fact right behind it he put the TL on after I left. T_T
It's a very good point, good advice.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 04:35 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:20 Teoita wrote:
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive to the lower leagues. This happened to me yesterday, I was playing a master's guy and he completely tricked me with it. The worst part is that I scouted a TL Rax and a Reactor rax, and just BARELY missed the fact right behind it he put the TL on after I left. T_T It's a very good point, good advice.
Yea, this is true. I copied that part of the guide from an old post. It should say, if you see a marauder, it's less likely to be a tech build. I'll fix it later.
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On September 27 2011 04:35 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 03:20 Teoita wrote:
One small note, mainly about lower league play: during my climb through the leagues (currently in diamond), i found many terran players thought it would be smart to try and "trick" me by doing pressure with, say, a marauder and a couple marines, and then follow that up with some kind of tech, often cloak banshees.
With that said, i would change the terran scouting thing from "if you see a marauder" to "if you see more than one marauder you can cross tech builds".
I wouldn't say that it's exclusive to the lower leagues. This happened to me yesterday, I was playing a master's guy and he completely tricked me with it. The worst part is that I scouted a TL Rax and a Reactor rax, and just BARELY missed the fact right behind it he put the TL on after I left. T_T It's a very good point, good advice.
I agree. Trickery such as cancelled Gas, add-ons, proxied buildings etc. can be found at all levels of play! Good point. ^^
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me.
Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out.
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Sorry to hijack your threat for my question but you seem to know a lot about p-strats 
Sooooo: Why are p-players not getting more robos when maxed and having k/k mins/gas?
Just watched a couple of games and no one gets >2 robos. I mean I’m just gold but being able to rewarp-in a lot of units fast is only useful when losing a fight significantly. In all other situations it´s favorable to get the tech units out in mass numbers imho. Is there any other reason i´m missing here?
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On September 27 2011 06:43 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me. Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out.
I like the rest of the solution, don't get me wrong. Phoenixes are a good idea. But what are you defending from with 5 cannons? I just don't feel like 2 port will have enough of a ground army that you can't deal with with the gateway units you have available. I'd just rather go for 5 gates or something to bust and kill him rather than play defensively when I don't think there's a threat.
I mean it's not like I think you'll lose doing the cannons, it just seems unnecessary.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2011 08:42 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:43 4kmonk wrote:On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me. Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out. I like the rest of the solution, don't get me wrong. Phoenixes are a good idea. But what are you defending from with 5 cannons? I just don't feel like 2 port will have enough of a ground army that you can't deal with with the gateway units you have available. I'd just rather go for 5 gates or something to bust and kill him rather than play defensively when I don't think there's a threat. I mean it's not like I think you'll lose doing the cannons, it just seems unnecessary.
You can't deal with the marine support without the cannons. Gateway units just don't cut it. Have you ever played against a 2 port attack with 1 reactor rax and 2 regular rax and tried to defend with just pheonix gateway?
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Great stuff as usual, 4kmonk should be nominated as a blue poster imo ^^
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On September 27 2011 08:48 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 08:42 Indrium wrote:On September 27 2011 06:43 4kmonk wrote:On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me. Do you have a better solution? As I've said, in my experience, this is the only way to defend a 2 port banshee allin on 2 bases. Also, if you scout 2 tech lab ports and no cc, you're going to be far ahead no matter what even if you throw up 5 cannons and are on 2 base. I will admit, however, that 5 is a bit much. 3-4 is generally enough, but 5 is just to be safe for newer players who try this out. I like the rest of the solution, don't get me wrong. Phoenixes are a good idea. But what are you defending from with 5 cannons? I just don't feel like 2 port will have enough of a ground army that you can't deal with with the gateway units you have available. I'd just rather go for 5 gates or something to bust and kill him rather than play defensively when I don't think there's a threat. I mean it's not like I think you'll lose doing the cannons, it just seems unnecessary. You can't deal with the marine support without the cannons. Gateway units just don't cut it. Have you ever played against a 2 port attack with 1 reactor rax and 2 regular rax and tried to defend with just pheonix gateway?
Not entirely sure. I dealt with marine support, not sure of the quantity, but it's entirely possible he
was just bad. I take your point. Thanks for clarifying.
And nice job on the thread, forgot to say that earlier. Was just that one thing I was confused about, rest looks very solid. (And so was that now that I'm clearer on it.)
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can i ask question??
this is me. http://sc2ranks.com/us/386631/sKoAcid
just to let you know this is a seirous question
How do you deal with mass speedling as protoss? To put "mass" into perspective over 100? I have some replays if you want to look at them as well.
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On September 27 2011 08:56 acidstormy wrote:can i ask question?? this is me. http://sc2ranks.com/us/386631/sKoAcid just to let you know this is a seirous question How do you deal with mass speedling as protoss? To put "mass" into perspective over 100? I have some replays if you want to look at them as well.
Well, first of all, this probably belongs in the protoss question thread. Also, I'd probably need a replay to answer. I mean, there's the obvious answer, zealots, collosi, templar, archons. And there's less obvious answers like good sim city, lots of cannons, and templar at your bases. But I don't know what you're looking for until I see a replay.
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Okay i sent you a PM! thanks for taking your time, i am constantly looking for input and advice against this zerg style
Actually i got one to work
http://drop.sc/38115
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On September 27 2011 09:08 acidstormy wrote:Okay i sent you a PM! thanks for taking your time, i am constantly looking for input and advice against this zerg style Actually i got one to work http://drop.sc/38115
The reason that mass ling style is very uncommon in PvZ is that it consistently loses to any mass gateway attack. That being said, you couldn't have known he was going mass lings and blind countered him, so I'll comment on that game specifically.
Your opening, first 5 minutes wasn't optimal. You make 2 cannon, make buildings in the wrong order, have off building positioning, and don't properly account that ling runby, which put you quite behind.
Your biggest problem by far is the lack of sentries. I don't think you make even 1 sentry the entire game, which help greatly versus mass lings.
I don't understand your build from 5 minutes to 10 minutes. You have 4 gates, a robo, and a twilight, but don't make sentries. You seem to want to mass blink stalkers, but don't have enough to push or pressure. Also, in my opinion, a defensive robo on a huge map is probably the worst thing you can do versus mass ling.
I wouldn't recommend collosi if you scout mass lings, as both infestors and muta are the most common followups, both of which templar do better against.
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ok, thanks for evaluating, i was a little nervous for some reason. That ling run by did mess me up becuase i like to get stargate before i get any other tech.
i think ill try the HT out, i haven't really done that yet
EDIT: Also i have a follow up question. Is there something about forge expand that tempts zergs to get mass ling? Many zergs i play on Korean and American server get many many lings against me no matter what. I don't know zerg very well, but they must see an obvious weakness for them to respond with this mass ling style
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Maybe you could add the huging nexus pylon/1st gateway build as a preemptive 6pool "counter". Afaik WhiteRa likes to do this.
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What's your follow up after holding 6 pool on shakuras - given that you hold by pylon/cannon in main. I can't seem to win even though I'm defending without taking any econ damage...
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Should add a PvZ section that covers dealing with Muta's
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On September 30 2011 06:05 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Should add a PvZ section that covers dealing with Muta's
That seems more complicated than a simple FAQ can cover. "How do i deal with mutas?" seems a bit too general a question.
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On September 30 2011 09:10 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 06:05 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Should add a PvZ section that covers dealing with Muta's That seems more complicated than a simple FAQ can cover. "How do i deal with mutas?" seems a bit too general a question.
Something covering how to deal with a 2base muta+ling opening then. Is something quite common in the lower leagues and something a lot of protoss players seem to have trouble with until they learn how to deal with it.
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awesome info. def learned some stuff. thank you
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Good compilation. Thanks!
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On September 30 2011 09:10 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 06:05 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Should add a PvZ section that covers dealing with Muta's That seems more complicated than a simple FAQ can cover. "How do i deal with mutas?" seems a bit too general a question.
That is no less general than 'how to defend against drops.' The essence of the response is simply blink stalkers ---> get archons and/or storm, don't make collosi. If someone thinks that that is complicated they shouldn't be playing Starcraft.
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On September 30 2011 13:59 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 09:10 4kmonk wrote:On September 30 2011 06:05 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Should add a PvZ section that covers dealing with Muta's That seems more complicated than a simple FAQ can cover. "How do i deal with mutas?" seems a bit too general a question. That is no less general than 'how to defend against drops.' The essence of the response is simply blink stalkers ---> get archons and/or storm, don't make collosi. If someone thinks that that is complicated they shouldn't be playing Starcraft.
It's definitely more general than that. The obvious answer is to get blink stalkers into archons, but there's a lot more subtleties involved. Notice how in the "how to defend against drops" section, I didn't mention any units you should get.
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Edits on 10/1/2011:
Edited section on how to deal with 6 pools with forge fe
Added a section on how to scout zerg
Added a section on how to deal with mutas
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nice collection, looks legit!
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thanks 4kmonk, good collection will have this and the Protoss helpmehread checked constantly!!!!
Thanks very much going to read it all now!!!
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Edits on 10/19/2011
Added a section on how to defend roach ling allin with 1 gate fe.
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On October 20 2011 05:54 NrGmonk wrote:
Edits on 10/19/2011
Added a section on how to defend roach ling allin with 1 gate fe.
Just curious, is that saying those are the only ways, or only ways you know of?
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On October 20 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:54 NrGmonk wrote:
Edits on 10/19/2011
Added a section on how to defend roach ling allin with 1 gate fe. Just curious, is that saying those are the only ways, or only ways you know of?
Only ways that are known by the general community. I'd like to hear some more of your ideas if you have some =P. I certainly can't think of blink/charge/ht/archons/pheonix/carrier/mothership working.
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What about VR/HT vs BL/Infestor? Most BL/Infestor combos don't go hydra due to the already high gas cost of both BL and Infestors, so with HT to nullify the threat of Infestors which will be their only AA it gives your VRs free rein.
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Wow , this is so handy. Bookmarked
Need to teach my friend, but now it is much much easier thanks
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Incredibly good post. Would be nice to see some of the timings for scouting put in (like, what to are key times to scout Z/P, what you're looking for). A lot of new players really struggle with knowing what they are looking for at that crucial 4-7 minute range where your opponent is choosing his tech and style of build.
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Can you add something on how to spot/defend against Thor early all in or early ghost push?
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For dealing with roach/ling after one gate FE, it says to get twilight council after nexus. My understanding was that you should get a TC before nexus. Dark shrine takes a LONG time to build (as long as a nexus, in fact). If you start teching to DTs after nexus, there is a timing window where he can kill your nexus before you have DTs.
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Thanks for this post. Slight correction: in the part about defending 2port banshee, I believe you meant to type "cut probes", but you instead put "cut scvs".
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Can you add a section on dealing with Terran MMM? That would be insanely helpful since it's the bread and butter for Terran against Toss.
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On October 22 2011 03:28 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Can you add a section on dealing with Terran MMM? That would be insanely helpful since it's the bread and butter for Terran against Toss.
Problem with that is that it's way too general. It's basically answering how do I play PvT?
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Maybe a quick general synopsis, a few lines? My approach to MMM is basically chargelots for marauders, stalkers, sentries, and collusus/archon. A lot of times my army will get rolled if a ghost gets and EMP off :/
Question: Are late game zealots really a big issue for Terran? Blizzard seems to think so and are addressing it in the HoTS game. Why?
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On October 22 2011 16:21 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Maybe a quick general synopsis, a few lines? My approach to MMM is basically chargelots for marauders, stalkers, sentries, and collusus/archon. A lot of times my army will get rolled if a ghost gets and EMP off :/
Question: Are late game zealots really a big issue for Terran? Blizzard seems to think so and are addressing it in the HoTS game. Why?
Zealots with charge, 3 armor and guardian shield dont die (terran prefers heavy maruder armies and zealots own them)
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What is the best way to deal with Terran Tech builds? eg. early Thor/ghost builds?
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Why do you recommend a defensive forge against cannon rushes? Can't you just pull workers to kill the cannons while you get your own gateway/core up?
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Thanks so much! i've been looking for something like this
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I'd love some Terran FAQ! Let's hope some T pro copy you on this!
Really good work, even if I'm not longer interested in playing P, it's a useful and interesting read.
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O.O Monk is the SHIT.
EDIT: You should probably mention the number of chrono boosts needed/unneeded in a forge expo... people will end up cutting things and being crazy if they chrono the nexus on 10 and attempt to 13 forge xD
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On November 05 2011 17:16 mizU wrote:
Why do you recommend a defensive forge against cannon rushes? Can't you just pull workers to kill the cannons while you get your own gateway/core up?
You probably cant because it is in a thigh spot blocked by pylon(s). But if he just puts it in the open you can.
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On September 27 2011 02:17 Indrium wrote:
Why do you throw up 5 cannons at your front against a 2 port? Seems like a massive overreaction to me.
Well.... what else would you be using the minerals for? More zealots? It's a Terran All in, and it's assuming you're on 2 bases with 2 gas and they're on a single base.
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What's the best opening / response can Protoss do against a T doing marauder 1st FE pressuring with his 1st marine + marauder with rallying marauders reinforcing? Assuming you've played standard up to that point ( 1 gas , 1 gate, core )
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On November 06 2011 05:37 S_SienZ wrote:
What's the best opening / response can Protoss do against a T doing marauder 1st FE pressuring with his 1st marine + marauder with rallying marauders reinforcing? Assuming you've played standard up to that point ( 1 gas , 1 gate, core )
This isn't really a question thread and the question you ask doesn't have a definitive answer. Depends on your style and what you want to accomplish.
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I'll definitely link my Protoss friends to this, thanks for the great compilation.
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Very helpful thread, thanks for compiling.
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thanks for this!
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Wow thanks a lot, good read, and really well organized. Very much appreciated, now I can start pretending I know what I'm doing.
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Great thread.
Should add how to deal with proxy hatch in base. And also sneaking probes is a great way to scout in pvz, but i guess that is a given.
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Very nice thread, do you have how to deal with early roach / ling bust for forge fast expand? It seems to hit when I have 2 cannons, and even if I manage to place more they will unpower or kill them and run-by lings. My only fall back is the starport and that feels too risky :s
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Amazing thread. Thanks a lot for all the work you have done -- this, and all of the other strategy guides you've posted. +1 !!
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how do you beat sky terran, PvT...basically what happens is the T opens up 2starport banshee, then expands with his minerals, and starts mass expanding with PF and turrets while amassing a battlecruiser viking banshee force, with a few ravens. there isnt a way to break it early due to the strength of PF and the turrets protecting from void rays then it just rolls later on due to the composition being able to take mass feedback without dying (usually in yellow/red hp) but still win the fight because stalkers melt instantly, as do phoenix and void rays get yamato'd
i dont see a composition to beat this
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On November 22 2011 10:48 unit wrote:
how do you beat sky terran, PvT...basically what happens is the T opens up 2starport banshee, then expands with his minerals, and starts mass expanding with PF and turrets while amassing a battlecruiser viking banshee force, with a few ravens. there isnt a way to break it early due to the strength of PF and the turrets protecting from void rays then it just rolls later on due to the composition being able to take mass feedback without dying (usually in yellow/red hp) but still win the fight because stalkers melt instantly, as do phoenix and void rays get yamato'd
i dont see a composition to beat this
I'm pretty sure this isn't a frequently asked question :D
Post your question in the protoss help me thread with a replay and we can tell you what you did wrong.
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On November 22 2011 11:06 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 10:48 unit wrote:
how do you beat sky terran, PvT...basically what happens is the T opens up 2starport banshee, then expands with his minerals, and starts mass expanding with PF and turrets while amassing a battlecruiser viking banshee force, with a few ravens. there isnt a way to break it early due to the strength of PF and the turrets protecting from void rays then it just rolls later on due to the composition being able to take mass feedback without dying (usually in yellow/red hp) but still win the fight because stalkers melt instantly, as do phoenix and void rays get yamato'd
i dont see a composition to beat this I'm pretty sure this isn't a frequently asked question :D Post your question in the protoss help me thread with a replay and we can tell you what you did wrong.
ok, thanks...i managed to figure it out though, i just need to allin before his planetary is done
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this thread is sick, definitely worth the read
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" How do I deal an opponent once he gets infestor ling/roach broodlord?
[..]
If you want to go even further, carriers can be a good addition to the deathball."
carriers suck, any competent zerg will have curropters out which hard counter carrier.
Better get out void rays.
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On November 25 2011 18:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
" How do I deal an opponent once he gets infestor ling/roach broodlord?
[..]
If you want to go even further, carriers can be a good addition to the deathball."
carriers suck, any competent zerg will have curropters out which hard counter carrier.
Better get out void rays.
Nothing counters carrier templar archon mothership though.
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On November 25 2011 18:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 18:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
" How do I deal an opponent once he gets infestor ling/roach broodlord?
[..]
If you want to go even further, carriers can be a good addition to the deathball."
carriers suck, any competent zerg will have curropters out which hard counter carrier.
Better get out void rays.
Nothing counters carrier templar archon mothership though.
100 burrowed banelings and 30 corruptors. You have no obs. Bam no ground army and here comes 30 corruptors vs carrier/mothership.
On a serious note, you should include a little blurb on how to approach thinking about how many buildings you can have at a given time. You told me your method before and it is rather elegant and would help a lot of players out.
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On November 26 2011 21:28 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 18:25 NrGmonk wrote:On November 25 2011 18:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
" How do I deal an opponent once he gets infestor ling/roach broodlord?
[..]
If you want to go even further, carriers can be a good addition to the deathball."
carriers suck, any competent zerg will have curropters out which hard counter carrier.
Better get out void rays.
Nothing counters carrier templar archon mothership though. 100 burrowed banelings and 30 corruptors. You have no obs. Bam no ground army and here comes 30 corruptors vs carrier/mothership. On a serious note, you should include a little blurb on how to approach thinking about how many buildings you can have at a given time. You told me your method before and it is rather elegant and would help a lot of players out.
archons tank alot of baneling damage, alot
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On November 29 2011 08:33 DropTester wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 21:28 vaderseven wrote:On November 25 2011 18:25 NrGmonk wrote:On November 25 2011 18:13 OrbitalPlane wrote:
" How do I deal an opponent once he gets infestor ling/roach broodlord?
[..]
If you want to go even further, carriers can be a good addition to the deathball."
carriers suck, any competent zerg will have curropters out which hard counter carrier.
Better get out void rays.
Nothing counters carrier templar archon mothership though. 100 burrowed banelings and 30 corruptors. You have no obs. Bam no ground army and here comes 30 corruptors vs carrier/mothership. On a serious note, you should include a little blurb on how to approach thinking about how many buildings you can have at a given time. You told me your method before and it is rather elegant and would help a lot of players out. archons tank alot of baneling damage, alot
It was a joke
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PvP
How do I defend a cannon rush?
- Hide Spoiler -
You must scout this in time, preferably as his first proxy pylon is building. Immediately throw up your own forge. His first cannon will finish and there is usually nothing you can do about it as long as the cannon is not in range of your probes/buildings. Throw up a cannon between your buildings and his first cannon but not in range of the cannon. If he tries to throw up more than 1 cannon, keep throwing up cannons, either matching his cannon count or going over by 1. The key is to make sure your cannons win this cannon vs cannon fight. Whoever wins this will usually win this game. If you think it will be close, you can even pull probes to attack the cannons just so you get a small edge on cannon hp, even if you lose probes. If you think you can decisively win this cannon war without additional cannons, cancel your other cannons in production.
How about building a couple of zealots, ignoring the cannons and using the zealots to take out his probes while getting away as many probes as possible as soon as you have 400 minerals, to take a new nexus?
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On January 01 2012 00:48 Tobias wrote:
How about building a couple of zealots, ignoring the cannons and using the zealots to take out his probes while getting away as many probes as possible as soon as you have 400 minerals, to take a new nexus?
More experienced players will preemptively put a cannon in their base if they know/suspect this is coming.
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Do experienced players really cannon rush? o.O
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On January 01 2012 06:40 Tobias wrote:
Do experienced players really cannon rush? o.O
Cannon rushes work at every level.
especially on cannonrush map ( aka metalopolis )
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+1 to you sir. This is helpful, especially the PvZ Muta part because 80% of zergs will go for mutas.
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On January 01 2012 07:00 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 06:40 Tobias wrote:
Do experienced players really cannon rush? o.O Cannon rushes work at every level. especially on cannonrush map ( aka metalopolis )
Since I started working on that 11gate 3-gate in pvp I haven't been anything but happy when people try it
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what if high templar got a "faster energy regen" upgrade. since KA left.
that'd be cool? :D
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On January 01 2012 00:48 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +PvP
How do I defend a cannon rush?
- Hide Spoiler -
You must scout this in time, preferably as his first proxy pylon is building. Immediately throw up your own forge. His first cannon will finish and there is usually nothing you can do about it as long as the cannon is not in range of your probes/buildings. Throw up a cannon between your buildings and his first cannon but not in range of the cannon. If he tries to throw up more than 1 cannon, keep throwing up cannons, either matching his cannon count or going over by 1. The key is to make sure your cannons win this cannon vs cannon fight. Whoever wins this will usually win this game. If you think it will be close, you can even pull probes to attack the cannons just so you get a small edge on cannon hp, even if you lose probes. If you think you can decisively win this cannon war without additional cannons, cancel your other cannons in production. How about building a couple of zealots, ignoring the cannons and using the zealots to take out his probes while getting away as many probes as possible as soon as you have 400 minerals, to take a new nexus?
You shouldn't lose any probes to a single zealot with minimal probe micro.
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On January 01 2012 10:04 ogawdlulz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 00:48 Tobias wrote:PvP
How do I defend a cannon rush?
- Hide Spoiler -
You must scout this in time, preferably as his first proxy pylon is building. Immediately throw up your own forge. His first cannon will finish and there is usually nothing you can do about it as long as the cannon is not in range of your probes/buildings. Throw up a cannon between your buildings and his first cannon but not in range of the cannon. If he tries to throw up more than 1 cannon, keep throwing up cannons, either matching his cannon count or going over by 1. The key is to make sure your cannons win this cannon vs cannon fight. Whoever wins this will usually win this game. If you think it will be close, you can even pull probes to attack the cannons just so you get a small edge on cannon hp, even if you lose probes. If you think you can decisively win this cannon war without additional cannons, cancel your other cannons in production. How about building a couple of zealots, ignoring the cannons and using the zealots to take out his probes while getting away as many probes as possible as soon as you have 400 minerals, to take a new nexus? You shouldn't lose any probes to a single zealot with minimal probe micro.
You should lose a bunch to two zealots with minimal zealot micro
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What do i do when my opponment builds collosus?
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On January 07 2012 00:18 SoapSC wrote:
What do i do when my opponment builds collosus?
Build the anti-colossus.
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On January 07 2012 09:24 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:18 SoapSC wrote:
What do i do when my opponment builds collosus?
Build the anti-colossus.
Bwaha!
(so phoenix, void-ray or a shit-ton of blink stalkers?)
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On January 07 2012 09:24 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 00:18 SoapSC wrote:
What do i do when my opponment builds collosus?
Build the anti-colossus.
So i just build Collosus myself or phoenix i understand.
Thanks for the help ^^
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On January 08 2012 01:16 SoapSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 09:24 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 00:18 SoapSC wrote:
What do i do when my opponment builds collosus?
Build the anti-colossus. So i just build Collosus myself or phoenix i understand. Thanks for the help ^^
Keep in mind that if you're responding by building colossi you need to either A: outproduce him and get more of them or B: be super careful with positioning. If the army compositions are the same just that you has fewer colossi and you're on an even battlefield he will absolutely smash you, while fighting in an open space where you can flank them can mean a decisive win for you.
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A blue trollin? I thought blues were supposed to be helpful and stuff yo. Other people would get banned for this.
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On January 08 2012 18:09 xtruder wrote:
A blue trollin? I thought blues were supposed to be helpful and stuff yo. Other people would get banned for this.
probably
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im not even a toss and i thought this was a good read, now im off to find similar posts for the other 2 races
thanks monk
NrG fighting
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good informations thx mate....
two quick questions:
I am not playing that often so plz excuse me if the questions suck
1. Are the strategies still up to date ? Can i still count on the opponent to do strategy A B and C when i scout something or are the Strategies D E and F more common now
2. You got any experiance about the skill lvl regarding the strategies ? I play EU dia-league and my micro sucks . I am sure there are certain positions were u win 90% with gandmaster micro against other gandmasterplayers. Where a wood-league player are only winning 30% in the exactly same position. So one strategie is great in dia und plat but bad in master und grandmaster ?
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On January 24 2012 03:40 martstar wrote:good informations thx mate.... two quick questions: I am not playing that often so plz excuse me if the questions suck 1. Are the strategies still up to date ? Can i still count on the opponent to do strategy A B and C when i scout something or are the Strategies D E and F more common now 2. You got any experiance about the skill lvl regarding the strategies ? I play EU dia-league and my micro sucks . I am sure there are certain positions were u win 90% with gandmaster micro against other gandmasterplayers. Where a wood-league player are only winning 30% in the exactly same position. So one strategie is great in dia und plat but bad in master und grandmaster ?
1. They should be pretty up-to-date still. Especially in lower leagues.
2. Doesn't matter about skill level. If opponents to other things they are likely playing in an inferior manner, giving you an advantage. Don't think in terms of strategies that require skill, just strive to do the correct thing at all times and push yourself to improve.
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Have you considered adding in something regarding dealing with certain mech styles into this? Maybe not crazy fleshed out but some kind of simple flowchart for what to keep in mind when playing mech or bio mech builds.
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On January 24 2012 04:04 CaptainHaz wrote:
Have you considered adding in something regarding dealing with certain mech styles into this? Maybe not crazy fleshed out but some kind of simple flowchart for what to keep in mind when playing mech or bio mech builds.
I could give my own personal recommendations, but truthfully, everyone does something slightly different versus mech as there's no standard. I also don't want any advice I give in this thread to be controversial, as it's mainly geared towards newer players.
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Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong.
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great faq keep up the good work ^^::
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In PvP been facing proxy gates more all of a sudden so have a question.
1) What is the best way to scout for these? I 12 Gate scout from a 1 Gate Tech build opening, and was wondering should I:
a) Send my probe to scout his base immediately
b) Send my probe around the outskirts and nearby areas of my base for proxies. I feel like this isnt a full-proof method of scouting a proxy gate is happening because u may simply miss where they planted their gates. Whereas if you go to their base, and immediately see no buildings, then its more 'conclusive' that cheese is on the way (either proxy gates or cannon rush) and I should cancel my Cybercore immediately.
c) Do (b) first then (a) after. My concern with doing this is that I will get to their base too late to know what is going on and react (similar reasoning to (b)).
2) What ladder maps is it safe to scout on pylon/core and what maps pose potential cheese builds like cannon and proxy gate rushes?
Advice from those experienced??
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On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong.
Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it
On January 27 2012 11:32 bankai wrote:
In PvP been facing proxy gates more all of a sudden so have a question.
1) What is the best way to scout for these? I 12 Gate scout from a 1 Gate Tech build opening, and was wondering should I:
a) Send my probe to scout his base immediately
b) Send my probe around the outskirts and nearby areas of my base for proxies. I feel like this isnt a full-proof method of scouting a proxy gate is happening because u may simply miss where they planted their gates. Whereas if you go to their base, and immediately see no buildings, then its more 'conclusive' that cheese is on the way (either proxy gates or cannon rush) and I should cancel my Cybercore immediately.
c) Do (b) first then (a) after. My concern with doing this is that I will get to their base too late to know what is going on and react (similar reasoning to (b)).
2) What ladder maps is it safe to scout on pylon/core and what maps pose potential cheese builds like cannon and proxy gate rushes?
Advice from those experienced??
1. Always scout the common proxy locations if you 12 scout. If you go straight to his bases, you need to 9 scout or you won't get there in time to react. There are common proxy locations for every map and if you learn them, you will do fine. If you doesn't proxy at the common locations, it will usually be very far from your base and you'll be able to fend it off with a core and good micro.
2. It's safe to scout on core only on maps with 4 possible spawn positions. Not metal/shattered/shakrus, because they have 3 possible spawn positions. Not xelnaga because it's 2 spawn positions. Yes to antiga/emtombed. Can't remember any other 4 player ladder maps off the top of my head.
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wow really helpful, thanks a ton!
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On January 27 2012 14:01 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong. Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it
Here is the replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)BronzeKnee_vs_(T)BetaX/17597
Thanks man, I played this guys several times and he did the same build order over and over. It pretty much went this way the entire time. I could have gotten an earlier Robo and did one game, but it only allowed me to have 1 more Phoenix out than the game linked above (opened Robo-Gate-Gate and it gave me 30 additional seconds). Also that game I should have picked off the PDD immediately with my Sentries, but I misclicked. My overall play was sloppy, and when looking at I could probably squeeze out a few more units and such, but I lost by such a huge margin I doubt it would matter much. I think I'm being build order countered and need to change my build, rather than refine what I've got (certainly could be wrong here, maybe Mass Stalkers would be better?).
He hits me with a big push of Marines/SCVs/Hellions/Banshees without Cloak and a Raven that hits ~9:30-10:00. He attempts a Hellion drop first too.
Obviously I could blind counter it, but I'm trying to figure out how to counter it based upon what I see. Also I never tried pulling Probes, because he had so many Hellions. I did find some games of Attero vs Pride in a TL Open where he holds a similar build, but he pulls Probes and Pride doesn't have Hellions. Those games were ridiculously close too.
Finally, I did try abandoning the expand in another game, but he just did a Medivac elevator into my base when that happened. I was unable to kill the Medivac because he just kept repairing it when I tried it again.
I was intrigued by your idea of getting Cannons, and that might be the solution, but I'm not sure they would be out in time. Also how many Gates do you hold it with?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 28 2012 03:58 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 14:01 NrGmonk wrote:On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong. Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it Here is the replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)BronzeKnee_vs_(T)BetaX/17597Thanks man, I played this guys several times and he did the same build order over and over. It pretty much went this way the entire time. I could have gotten an earlier Robo and did one game, but it only allowed me to have 1 more Phoenix out than the game linked above (opened Robo-Gate-Gate and it gave me 30 additional seconds). Also that game I should have picked off the PDD immediately with my Sentries, but I misclicked. My overall play was sloppy, and when looking at I could probably squeeze out a few more units and such, but I lost by such a huge margin I doubt it would matter much. I think I'm being build order countered and need to change my build, rather than refine what I've got (certainly could be wrong here, maybe Mass Stalkers would be better?). He hits me with a big push of Marines/SCVs/Hellions/Banshees without Cloak and a Raven that hits ~9:30-10:00. He attempts a Hellion drop first too. Obviously I could blind counter it, but I'm trying to figure out how to counter it based upon what I see. Also I never tried pulling Probes, because he had so many Hellions. I did find some games of Attero vs Pride in a TL Open where he holds a similar build, but he pulls Probes and Pride doesn't have Hellions. Those games were ridiculously close too. Finally, I did try abandoning the expand in another game, but he just did a Medivac elevator into my base when that happened. I was unable to kill the Medivac because he just kept repairing it when I tried it again. I was intrigued by your idea of getting Cannons, and that might be the solution, but I'm not sure they would be out in time. Also how many Gates do you hold it with?
In your game, you didn't get cannons, so I would obviously suggest cannons ^^. I've actually never seen anyone defend this off of 1 gate fe without cannons. You're right that one big mistake you made was getting too late a robo. Ideally, you want your 2nd observer popping out at the 7:30 mark, so you can send your first obs to your opponent's base while you defend against possible cloaked banshees with your 2nd obs. Thus, your first obs will get to your opponent's base at the very latest 8:00. This allows you enough time to throw up a stargate and forge and cannons to defend that push. Remember that you're not relying solely on phoenix to defend the push. They're mainly to deter banshee harrass and eat up pdd energy. Your cannons will be doing the brunt of the work.
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Do armor upgrades count for your sheilds? or does it only count for once you lose your shields?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 28 2012 19:54 tpmraven wrote:
Do armor upgrades count for your sheilds? or does it only count for once you lose your shields?
Wrong place to ask this. Use simple questions simple answers or Protoss help thread next time. Answer is No, then Yes.
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On January 28 2012 14:37 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 03:58 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2012 14:01 NrGmonk wrote:On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong. Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it Here is the replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)BronzeKnee_vs_(T)BetaX/17597Thanks man, I played this guys several times and he did the same build order over and over. It pretty much went this way the entire time. I could have gotten an earlier Robo and did one game, but it only allowed me to have 1 more Phoenix out than the game linked above (opened Robo-Gate-Gate and it gave me 30 additional seconds). Also that game I should have picked off the PDD immediately with my Sentries, but I misclicked. My overall play was sloppy, and when looking at I could probably squeeze out a few more units and such, but I lost by such a huge margin I doubt it would matter much. I think I'm being build order countered and need to change my build, rather than refine what I've got (certainly could be wrong here, maybe Mass Stalkers would be better?). He hits me with a big push of Marines/SCVs/Hellions/Banshees without Cloak and a Raven that hits ~9:30-10:00. He attempts a Hellion drop first too. Obviously I could blind counter it, but I'm trying to figure out how to counter it based upon what I see. Also I never tried pulling Probes, because he had so many Hellions. I did find some games of Attero vs Pride in a TL Open where he holds a similar build, but he pulls Probes and Pride doesn't have Hellions. Those games were ridiculously close too. Finally, I did try abandoning the expand in another game, but he just did a Medivac elevator into my base when that happened. I was unable to kill the Medivac because he just kept repairing it when I tried it again. I was intrigued by your idea of getting Cannons, and that might be the solution, but I'm not sure they would be out in time. Also how many Gates do you hold it with? In your game, you didn't get cannons, so I would obviously suggest cannons ^^. I've actually never seen anyone defend this off of 1 gate fe without cannons. You're right that one big mistake you made was getting too late a robo. Ideally, you want your 2nd observer popping out at the 7:30 mark, so you can send your first obs to your opponent's base while you defend against possible cloaked banshees with your 2nd obs. Thus, your first obs will get to your opponent's base at the very latest 8:00. This allows you enough time to throw up a stargate and forge and cannons to defend that push. Remember that you're not relying solely on phoenix to defend the push. They're mainly to deter banshee harrass and eat up pdd energy. Your cannons will be doing the brunt of the work.
I see, thanks.
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On January 27 2012 14:01 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong. Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 11:32 bankai wrote:
In PvP been facing proxy gates more all of a sudden so have a question.
1) What is the best way to scout for these? I 12 Gate scout from a 1 Gate Tech build opening, and was wondering should I:
a) Send my probe to scout his base immediately
b) Send my probe around the outskirts and nearby areas of my base for proxies. I feel like this isnt a full-proof method of scouting a proxy gate is happening because u may simply miss where they planted their gates. Whereas if you go to their base, and immediately see no buildings, then its more 'conclusive' that cheese is on the way (either proxy gates or cannon rush) and I should cancel my Cybercore immediately.
c) Do (b) first then (a) after. My concern with doing this is that I will get to their base too late to know what is going on and react (similar reasoning to (b)).
2) What ladder maps is it safe to scout on pylon/core and what maps pose potential cheese builds like cannon and proxy gate rushes?
Advice from those experienced?? 1. Always scout the common proxy locations if you 12 scout. If you go straight to his bases, you need to 9 scout or you won't get there in time to react. There are common proxy locations for every map and if you learn them, you will do fine. If you doesn't proxy at the common locations, it will usually be very far from your base and you'll be able to fend it off with a core and good micro. 2. It's safe to scout on core only on maps with 4 possible spawn positions. Not metal/shattered/shakrus, because they have 3 possible spawn positions. Not xelnaga because it's 2 spawn positions. Yes to antiga/emtombed. Can't remember any other 4 player ladder maps off the top of my head.
Hi Monk, thanks for your help.
I tried applying what you mention in a PvP on Antiga. I scouted on core (doing Alej's 1Gate Tech build) and lost to a weird AdelScott kinda build. Basically the guy did a 13 Gate 15 Gate (no gas) and chrono'ed lots of zealots.
At this point I had my first zealot out, and 1st stalker halfway, he had 3zealots streaming into my base, another 2 shortly after. He just sends 2 zealots chasing my stalker, while another 3 go and kill my probe line.
This was really hard to defend by microing a stalker and probes at the same time.
I feel that if I simply scouted this build earlier, then I could have easily reacted with simcity/cannon.
Sooo....my question is, how do you stop Adelscott build on big maps? Esp if ur unlucky and scout him last. In your OP you mention to use simcity and chrono stalkers to kite his zealots back, but I dont even know zealots are on the way, nor do I have a stalker out by hte time his zealots hit my doorstep 
Ohh sorry, I would attach a replay but I dont have it on this comp.....so I realise any advice u can give here will be limited!
But basically I just wanna know how to stop Adelscott builds on big maps if you scout on Core? Maybe send 2 probes to scout a bit faster?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 30 2012 07:53 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 14:01 NrGmonk wrote:On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong. Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it On January 27 2012 11:32 bankai wrote:
In PvP been facing proxy gates more all of a sudden so have a question.
1) What is the best way to scout for these? I 12 Gate scout from a 1 Gate Tech build opening, and was wondering should I:
a) Send my probe to scout his base immediately
b) Send my probe around the outskirts and nearby areas of my base for proxies. I feel like this isnt a full-proof method of scouting a proxy gate is happening because u may simply miss where they planted their gates. Whereas if you go to their base, and immediately see no buildings, then its more 'conclusive' that cheese is on the way (either proxy gates or cannon rush) and I should cancel my Cybercore immediately.
c) Do (b) first then (a) after. My concern with doing this is that I will get to their base too late to know what is going on and react (similar reasoning to (b)).
2) What ladder maps is it safe to scout on pylon/core and what maps pose potential cheese builds like cannon and proxy gate rushes?
Advice from those experienced?? 1. Always scout the common proxy locations if you 12 scout. If you go straight to his bases, you need to 9 scout or you won't get there in time to react. There are common proxy locations for every map and if you learn them, you will do fine. If you doesn't proxy at the common locations, it will usually be very far from your base and you'll be able to fend it off with a core and good micro. 2. It's safe to scout on core only on maps with 4 possible spawn positions. Not metal/shattered/shakrus, because they have 3 possible spawn positions. Not xelnaga because it's 2 spawn positions. Yes to antiga/emtombed. Can't remember any other 4 player ladder maps off the top of my head. Hi Monk, thanks for your help. I tried applying what you mention in a PvP on Antiga. I scouted on core (doing Alej's 1Gate Tech build) and lost to a weird AdelScott kinda build. Basically the guy did a 13 Gate 15 Gate (no gas) and chrono'ed lots of zealots. At this point I had my first zealot out, and 1st stalker halfway, he had 3zealots streaming into my base, another 2 shortly after. He just sends 2 zealots chasing my stalker, while another 3 go and kill my probe line. This was really hard to defend by microing a stalker and probes at the same time. I feel that if I simply scouted this build earlier, then I could have easily reacted with simcity/cannon. Sooo....my question is, how do you stop Adelscott build on big maps? Esp if ur unlucky and scout him last. In your OP you mention to use simcity and chrono stalkers to kite his zealots back, but I dont even know zealots are on the way, nor do I have a stalker out by hte time his zealots hit my doorstep Ohh sorry, I would attach a replay but I dont have it on this comp.....so I realise any advice u can give here will be limited! But basically I just wanna know how to stop Adelscott builds on big maps if you scout on Core? Maybe send 2 probes to scout a bit faster?
Don't know. Personally, I only core scout on talderim, so this situation hasn't come up for me. You should post in the protoss help thread for a better response. Btw your original question only asked how to be safe versus proxy gates and cannons.
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On January 30 2012 08:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 07:53 bankai wrote:On January 27 2012 14:01 NrGmonk wrote:On January 27 2012 10:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
Hey Monk, do you have any replays of you holding the 1-1-2 with your recommended response (Stargate plus Forge)? In my experience, the Observer scouts it too late to react in time to getting the defense you recommend. I must be doing something wrong. Nope, don't have one. You can post a replay and I'll look at it On January 27 2012 11:32 bankai wrote:
In PvP been facing proxy gates more all of a sudden so have a question.
1) What is the best way to scout for these? I 12 Gate scout from a 1 Gate Tech build opening, and was wondering should I:
a) Send my probe to scout his base immediately
b) Send my probe around the outskirts and nearby areas of my base for proxies. I feel like this isnt a full-proof method of scouting a proxy gate is happening because u may simply miss where they planted their gates. Whereas if you go to their base, and immediately see no buildings, then its more 'conclusive' that cheese is on the way (either proxy gates or cannon rush) and I should cancel my Cybercore immediately.
c) Do (b) first then (a) after. My concern with doing this is that I will get to their base too late to know what is going on and react (similar reasoning to (b)).
2) What ladder maps is it safe to scout on pylon/core and what maps pose potential cheese builds like cannon and proxy gate rushes?
Advice from those experienced?? 1. Always scout the common proxy locations if you 12 scout. If you go straight to his bases, you need to 9 scout or you won't get there in time to react. There are common proxy locations for every map and if you learn them, you will do fine. If you doesn't proxy at the common locations, it will usually be very far from your base and you'll be able to fend it off with a core and good micro. 2. It's safe to scout on core only on maps with 4 possible spawn positions. Not metal/shattered/shakrus, because they have 3 possible spawn positions. Not xelnaga because it's 2 spawn positions. Yes to antiga/emtombed. Can't remember any other 4 player ladder maps off the top of my head. Hi Monk, thanks for your help. I tried applying what you mention in a PvP on Antiga. I scouted on core (doing Alej's 1Gate Tech build) and lost to a weird AdelScott kinda build. Basically the guy did a 13 Gate 15 Gate (no gas) and chrono'ed lots of zealots. At this point I had my first zealot out, and 1st stalker halfway, he had 3zealots streaming into my base, another 2 shortly after. He just sends 2 zealots chasing my stalker, while another 3 go and kill my probe line. This was really hard to defend by microing a stalker and probes at the same time. I feel that if I simply scouted this build earlier, then I could have easily reacted with simcity/cannon. Sooo....my question is, how do you stop Adelscott build on big maps? Esp if ur unlucky and scout him last. In your OP you mention to use simcity and chrono stalkers to kite his zealots back, but I dont even know zealots are on the way, nor do I have a stalker out by hte time his zealots hit my doorstep Ohh sorry, I would attach a replay but I dont have it on this comp.....so I realise any advice u can give here will be limited! But basically I just wanna know how to stop Adelscott builds on big maps if you scout on Core? Maybe send 2 probes to scout a bit faster? Don't know. Personally, I only core scout on talderim, so this situation hasn't come up for me. You should post in the protoss help thread for a better response. Btw your original question only asked how to be safe versus proxy gates and cannons.
Ok not to worry, will post in the other thread as you suggest.
Yeah my original concern was proxy gates, but I faced the Adelscott kinda build the other day so thought I should sneak the question in
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United States8476 Posts
Added an example vod for how to defend 6 pool with forge fe build.
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I'm in a strange situation. I checked my career records on B.Net last night, and to my dismay I discovered I have consistanly been getting worse. Season 1:rank 2 in gold. Season 2: top 50 in gold. Season 3: top 5 in silver. Season 4 top 25 in Silver. Season 5 top 50 in Silver. At this rate next season I'm going to be back in bronze league. It's a shame. I was placed in Bronze League in season 1 and was able to improve to the point where I was being matched against Platinum players regularly.
I know for a fact my play has improved. My fundamental understanding of the game has improved. My control and build orders have improved. I'm pushing the front prior to warp gate, ling speed, or concussive shells for additional information. Even my sim cities have been improved, as I'm actually placing buildings in spots I feel is best for certain reasons. I'm scouting for 3rd bases and hidden expansions, all of this is stuff I never did season 1, but my record continues to decline. PvT is my best match up, and I have beat Master league Terrans in best of 3 matches, but still my league rating declines.
TL;DR Why has my record been in constant decline, even though I am improving as a player?
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Sabin, you may be improving overall but guess what, other people are experiencing the same improvements as well. The thing that makes the difference is how much you improved compared to the mass general in the same league. Keep on trying. Cheers.
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Monk, I love your guides, you should totally update this man!
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EPT
