Survey of Forge Expands vs Zerg in GSL

Jaeger

United States1150 Posts

July 03 2011 06:08 GMT

I was curious how the pros were doing their forge expand openings so I decided to survey the recent GSL games to look at simcity and build order up until they take 2 assimilators and start their core. I was surprised how much variety there is still, especially as the koreans are sort of known for exactly copying builds.

Here's the games played roughly ordered oldest to newest starting with the May team league.

Some stats:

56 - PvZs played
22 - forge expands (39.3% of total)

Most popular opening:
5 - 15 nexus 15 forge openings (22.7% of total)

Runner up:
3 - 17 nexus 17 forge openings (13.6% of total)

7 forge -> nexus openings
8 nexus -> forge openings
2 forge -> pylon -> nexus openings
1 forge -> pylon -> cannon -> nexus opening
1 forge -> cannon -> nexus opening

(P)

AcE vs

Zenio @ Xel'Naga Fortress [Set 3]
+ Show Spoiler +

13 forge
18 nexus
18 pylon
18 cannon
18 gateway
19 assimilator
23 cannon
24 core
25 assimilator

GuineaPig vs (Z)

BBoongBBoong @ Tal'Darim Altar [Set 4]
+ Show Spoiler +

17 nexus
17 forge (note cancel's 18th probe after not scouting zerg in first position)
18 pylon
19 gateway
20 assimilator
21 cannon
22 assimilator
25 core

Genius vs

Min @ Terminus RE [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 forge
16 pylon
18 nexus
18 cannon
19 gateway
19 pylon
20 cannon
21 assimilator x2
25 zealot
25 core

anypro vs

JookTo @ Terminus RE [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

13 forge
17 nexus
17 pylon
18 cannon
19 cannon
21 gateway
22 assimilator x2
26 pylon
27 core

AcE vs

FruitDealer @ Bel'Shir Beach [Set 1]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 nexus
15 forge
17 pylon
18 cannon
18 gateway
18 cannon
20 assimilator (1 probe died)
22 pylon
25 core (1 probe died)
25 cannon
25 gas

AcE vs

FruitDealer @ Xel'Naga Caverns [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 nexus
15 forge
17 pylon
18 cannon
18 gateway
18 cannon
20 assimilator (1 probe died)
25 core (1 probe died)
26 pylon
29 assimilator

AcE vs

FruitDealer @ Metalopolis [Set 3]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 forge
17 pylon
18 cannon
18 nexus
18 gateway
19 assimilator
21 cannon
23 pylon
23 core
24 assimilator

Genius vs

Min @ Terminus RE [Set 1]
+ Show Spoiler +

12 forge
14 pylon
19 nexus
19 gateway
21 assimilator x2
24 cannon
24 core

Alicia vs

Leenock @ Bel'Shir Beach [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

16 forge (tried to 16 nexus but drone blocked)
16 nexus (1 probe died, lol)
16 cannon
18 pylon
18 gateway
19 assimilator x2
24 core
24 pylon (1 probe died)
24 cannon (1 probe died)

Alicia vs

viOlet @ Bel'Shir Beach [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

17 nexus
17 forge
17 pylon
17 gateway
17 cannon
18 assimilator x2
20 core (1 probe died)
21 cannon

Tiger vs

Sheth @ Metalopolis [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

17 nexus
17 forge
18 pylon
18 gateway
18 cannon
18 assimilator
20 assimilator
22 cannon
24 core

Oz vs

Curious @ Tal'Darim Altar [Set 4]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 forge
16 pylon
17 pylon block hatch
18 cannon
20 cannon
20 nexus
21 gateway
22 assimilator
23 pylon (1 probe died)
25 gateway
26 core
27 assimilator

Creator vs (Z)

Luvsic @ Tal'Darim Altar [Set 1]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 forge
(scouts 10 pool)
16 gateway
16 cannon
16 pylon
19 nexus
20 assimilator x2 (1 probe died)
22 core

Choya vs

Check @ Xel'Naga Fortress [Set 1]
+ Show Spoiler +

(does not pylon scout)
15 nexus
15 forge -> scout
18 pylon
19 cannon
20 cannon
21 gateway
23 assimilator
26 assimilator
28 core (1 probe died)

TAiLS vs

TheWinD @ Terminus RE [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

(does not pylon scout)
11 forge
16 cannon
18 nexus
18 pylon
18 gateway
18 assimilator x2
20 pylon
22 core
25 cannon x2
(still has not scouted, and doesn't until phoenix after voidray)

San vs

Sheth @ Metalopolis [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 forge
16 nexus
16 cannon
17 pylon
18 gateway
20 assimilator
22 assimilator
26 core

Trickster vs (Z)

July @ Bel'Shir Beach [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

17 forge
18 nexus
18 pylon
18 cannon
18 gateway
20 assimilator
20 cannon
21 assimilator
22 core

Trickster vs (Z)

July @ Metalopolis [Set 5]
+ Show Spoiler +

16 forge
18 nexus
18 pylon
18 cannon
18 gateway
19 assimilator
21 assimilator
23 cannon
23 core

Alicia vs

CoCa @ Tal'Darim Altar [Set 1]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 forge
17 nexus
17 cannon
17 gateway
17 pylon
18 assimilator x2
24 core

Killer vs

BBoongBBoong @ Metalopolis [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 nexus
15 forge
16 pylon
18 gateway
18 cannon
20 cannon
22 assimilator x2
26 core

Sage vs

Sirius @ Tal'Darim Altar [Set 2]
+ Show Spoiler +

15 nexus
15 forge
17 pylon
17 cannon
19 gateway
20 assimilator x2
26 core

redloser

Korea (South)1751 Posts

July 03 2011 06:14 GMT

wow.

JerKy

Korea (South)3013 Posts

July 03 2011 06:18 GMT

Wow lotta compilation you put into this..
(Psst perhaps put spoiler tags?)

As a toss player myself, I love seeing how pros Forge FE, but I'm always hesitant to do it myself
I've been allined/busted way too many times

Ghoststrikes

Canada1356 Posts

July 03 2011 06:21 GMT

thats awesome work there!! I would just like the win % of each individual opening and such, would provide us some more information!

drolkrad

98 Posts

July 03 2011 06:22 GMT

i'm amazed at the amount of work and effort you put into this post.. good job

But i'm a little confused at these stats

5 - 15 nexus 15 forge openings (23.8% of total)

Runner up:
3 - 17 nexus 17 forge openings (14.3% of total)

7 forge -> nexus openings

does that mean 7 builds went forge into nexus opening? if that is the case, how come it wasn't the most popular build since there were 7 builds like that compared to only 5 builds that went 15 nexus 15 forge??

pirates

United States701 Posts

July 03 2011 06:22 GMT

this is an awesome compilation of information! very interested into reading all of this over and putting some thought into it. thanks again.

benthekid

United States132 Posts

July 03 2011 06:23 GMT

Damn...what have the Moderators done O.O

great post though jeez that's some sick stuff. I'm a terran and I wish someone would would do this for Terran FE builds.

Spiders

United States86 Posts

July 03 2011 06:24 GMT

I'm curious if any other zerg has attempted to do the lair spinecrawler rush that nestea did vs anypro when the toss does a forge expand and has the nexus as a part of their wall. It seems like a free win to me if you opened speedling expand but no one does it so i must be missing something

Jaeger

United States1150 Posts

July 03 2011 06:26 GMT

On July 03 2011 15:22 drolkrad wrote:
i'm amazed at the amount of work and effort you put into this post.. good job

Yes it means 7 builds built a forge and then a nexus as the very next building.
The difference is that 15 nexus 15 forge is an exact opening where as forge -> nexus just means any forge followed by a nexus including 13 forge 17 nexus, 16 forge 16 nexus, etc.

eery1

52 Posts

July 03 2011 06:34 GMT

#10

love what you're trying to do here. some of the pictures are mixed up though so you should probably double check that :D

spoiler tags might be helpful.

also if you are feeling industrious one of these days you can say what builds the enemies were doing so that this thread is about how to react with a FFE along with teaching building placement.

good luck!

CaptTerrible

United States72 Posts

July 03 2011 06:35 GMT

#11

this is pretty awesome, thanks for compiling it for us! This should make it easier for a lot of use to look at what works best as far as executing a forge first or reacting to a forge first

Jaeger

United States1150 Posts

July 03 2011 06:37 GMT

#12

On July 03 2011 15:24 Spiders wrote:
I'm curious if any other zerg has attempted to do the lair spinecrawler rush that nestea did vs anypro when the toss does a forge expand and has the nexus as a part of their wall. It seems like a free win to me if you opened speedling expand but no one does it so i must be missing something

I think that was a one time build that won't be seen again in pro level play.

The spinecrawler rush starts lair before ling speed is done with proper scouting you can see the lair morphing and no drones mining gas which makes the build pretty obvious if you know what to look for. From my experience it's a simple response to add a second gateway and make a few stalkers to snipe the morphing spines/overlords while using my cannons as cover from lings.

Anypro did a very slowly teching build that game and failed at scouting by not mineral walking his probes.

From an old thread on the subject: [link]

On May 09 2011 07:28 Jaeger wrote:
Anypro's build techs too slowly vs what he scouted. He saw a 14gas/13pool which finishes speed around 5:05 and gets its first larva inject around 4:40.

He went for nexus forge pylon cannon cannon and then a gateway and his 2nd cannon finished at 4:26. There was no reason for him to get that second cannon before his gateway.

covetousrat

2109 Posts

July 03 2011 06:44 GMT

#13

Very very nice post. I always wonder whats the FFE builds and Fast Nexus from the pros? Is there any comparisons to which build is probably the best? It seems that 15 15 is very common by the pros and other Forge Nexus is mainly based on maps and spawn locations.

Cheers.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10380 Posts

July 03 2011 06:44 GMT

#14

Holy shit, thanks for this...

information overload!

Too many variations, too many details!

Haha

Good Job, thanks for all the pictures it must have taken a long time!

redloser

Korea (South)1751 Posts

July 03 2011 06:52 GMT

#15

well, that spine crawler rush is only viable in maps that require nexus as a part of wall off...

Jaeger

United States1150 Posts

July 03 2011 06:53 GMT

#16

On July 03 2011 15:34 eery1 wrote:
love what you're trying to do here. some of the pictures are mixed up though so you should probably double check that :D

spoiler tags might be helpful.

also if you are feeling industrious one of these days you can say what builds the enemies were doing so that this thread is about how to react with a FFE along with teaching building placement.

good luck!

Oh wow, apparently copying links out of the image upload page is finicky. If you right-click a link and click copy and your mouse ends up over another link afterwards it copies the other link instead of the one you right clicked on. Thanks for noticing fixed them all I think.

Spoiler tags where?

Ya there are obviously other things that affect the openings, like what midgame protoss is going into and what/when he scouts. The vast majority of the games were just 14gas/14pool or similar to it speedling expands.

gosuRob

United States319 Posts

July 03 2011 06:54 GMT

#17

Hmm so which one is the most effective do you guys think?

apocryph

United States3 Posts

July 03 2011 06:57 GMT

#18

you're amazingly helpful in every game you play, thanks!

.kv

United States2332 Posts

July 03 2011 07:05 GMT

#19

can you pull up the win percentage as well

nice post Jaeger

theBOOCH

United States832 Posts

July 03 2011 07:05 GMT

#20

You should include whether the opening was successful, whether the toss won the game or not (I guess you would have to spoiler it for some people). I know that the opening isn't necessarily the most important factor in winning a game, but it can make a huge difference so knowing which styles are associated with the most success would be cool. I guess I could look it up anyway, but I don't play toss so I'm not really that concerned, lol.

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