EPTEdit: Might want to fix the title too ^^
[G] aXa's ZvP: Revisiting a Nestea's build - Page 3
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^ | ||
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RumbleBadger
322 Posts
On September 13 2011 09:42 Yamulo wrote: Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide. Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^ I'm guessing what he's saying is from his personal play. I have trouble with a lot of similar things (at least styles) although I'm only in gold. If I'm playing a toss on a map where they can't FFE (very few of them as they can do the funky wall thing from the ramp to the nexus if they want) then I usually win. It's FFE builds I feel lost (mostly scouting problems). Since usually a toss can FFE, I often have a lot of trouble. Season 3 I've actually had about a 45ish% win rate vs. toss... This build works great for me because it's a solid plan on what to do vs. a FFE toss that allows me to get way ahead in the midgame. When I do it right, I usually wipe their main and then I have 2 saturated bases while they are stuck on one. I usually just all-in them with roach/hydra/sling (often I'll try to squeeze out a +1 ranged, although it doesn't always happen - depends if I remember to start it early enough). They really have no defense if they're running off of 1 base. Usually they end up trying a 15 minutes 4gate (xD) and then I just crush them. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 13 2011 10:14 RumbleBadger wrote: I'm guessing what he's saying is from his personal play. I have trouble with a lot of similar things (at least styles) although I'm only in gold. If I'm playing a toss on a map where they can't FFE (very few of them as they can do the funky wall thing from the ramp to the nexus if they want) then I usually win. It's FFE builds I feel lost (mostly scouting problems). Since usually a toss can FFE, I often have a lot of trouble. Season 3 I've actually had about a 45ish% win rate vs. toss... This build works great for me because it's a solid plan on what to do vs. a FFE toss that allows me to get way ahead in the midgame. When I do it right, I usually wipe their main and then I have 2 saturated bases while they are stuck on one. I usually just all-in them with roach/hydra/sling (often I'll try to squeeze out a +1 ranged, although it doesn't always happen - depends if I remember to start it early enough). They really have no defense if they're running off of 1 base. Usually they end up trying a 15 minutes 4gate (xD) and then I just crush them. I think you can take like a really really early third on a map like shakuras, but on the lame ass ladder vs of tal darime there are rocks at your third. That is the only map though were I think protoss really gets a default eco advantage since zerg can't take as quick of a safe third. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On September 13 2011 09:42 Yamulo wrote: Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide. Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^ I guess he's talking more of his personal experience, but I share his opinion. I know Protoss players have been losing a little more lately but from what I can tell it's mostly with 2 base "all-ins" (don't really like that term, but you get my point). A real turtle that takes a relatively early 3rd is hard to punish even with Nestea's style, and it still feels like an automatic loss if he does get it. I don't agree that it's near unbeatable but it's still incredibly hard, and I think with a little metagame change Protoss will be considered highly favoured again. On September 13 2011 10:17 Yamulo wrote: I think you can take like a really really early third on a map like shakuras, but on the lame ass ladder vs of tal darime there are rocks at your third. That is the only map though were I think protoss really gets a default eco advantage since zerg can't take as quick of a safe third. You can do it, just not at an ideal place. People just take the "fourth" instead. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
On September 13 2011 06:59 Glon wrote: I'm just wondering aXa, what league are you on what server... would help with my commentary/criticism I'm high master player on Europe server (15th-20th) | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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BearPack
Australia35 Posts
Protoss just wall-up at their natural and generally don't leave their base, so there isn't much of a threat to scout out the spines. and even so, all attention gets diverted to the front, so they don't notice the nydus. Very risky though. It IS an all-in, and I sometimes worry about wether or not they will just come and kill me. Hasn't happened yet though. Awesome write-up | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Firewalk
France4 Posts
It works very well for me on Tal'Darim but i had some troubles on the other maps, where there is a ramp (Antigua Shipyard, Shakuras, ...) Is it worth doing it when the ramp doesnt allow you to reach gates/cyber/pylons whithout getting hit by the Canons? Does it matter if we do some damage on the front or it is just made to trick the opponent while we are "nydusing" his main? I have another little question: how many drones do you make before the nydus hits? Do you keep it all after making the zerglings or you make 4-5 more drones during the lair building? | ||
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Guilo
United States3 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
@Firewalk: I build drones until my first larvae injects kick in @Guilo: You're doing something wrong, you should have around 20 lings at least. Maybe you delay the queen/injects. You got to be on top of that. | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
ie. upgrade drop and ol speed and just drop the zerglings into the main instead? Thanks! | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
edit: whoah brain share this could be the "zerg 1/1/1" if tweaked right, its 1base, ambiguous, but deadly really if you just use the guide up to the point where you plop down nydus, that 200gas could be basically anything and it seems like its got rock solid safe timings if you scout forge FFE might instantly die to real 1base allins | ||
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Artosis Haircut
Netherlands7 Posts
Tried this once now and it worked perfectly. Maybe it's worth to notice in your post aswell, that the protoss most probably attacks after you destroy his main nexus, so it's a good idea to throw down a few spines at your natural and get some roaches to prepare for this. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
Then as soon lair finishes, you can create creep using an ovie. this way it would not be necessary to get that very early gas rendering this build all-inish. when a spine is built using cancel hatch trick, it costs additional 75 mins for hatch cancel and it only has 2/3 of original hp when it comes up. on the other hand you might get an earlier timing without cutting too much economy. | ||
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Macrobe
United Kingdom87 Posts
On October 03 2011 06:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Did anybody try to use the cancel hatch trick to build the spines ? Then as soon lair finishes, you can create creep using an ovie. this way it would not be necessary to get that very early gas rendering this build all-inish. when a spine is built using cancel hatch trick, it costs additional 75 mins for hatch cancel and it only has 2/3 of original hp when it comes up. on the other hand you might get an earlier timing without cutting too much economy. This way your spines are a little too immobile and vulnerable. In close pos where there's been an FFE you might use the queen+ hatch cancel trick to do this more reliably though. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
Overall I think this strategy seems pretty valid, you usually as protoss doesnt place pylons everywhere in your base at the 7min mark, if you are not like making units out of all your gateways or chronoing out something that requires huge of supply. | ||
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Joey Wheeler
Korea (North)276 Posts
The reason it is weak on one base is that the Protoss can just sac the buildings at the front and spam cannons behind it. Considering you are one base he will not fall behind, then open stargate and just take complete map control while you're scrambling to get hydralisks out of your scarce larvae. Nydus in the back of course will be countered just by scouting. The only people who say this is hard also complain about dealing with hydra/ling nydus. | ||
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