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Without any kind of further introduction, behold the 3 spine push into nydus !![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/djOc3.png) Okay i'm pretty sure everyone remember this awesome GSL game between Nestea and Anypro. The idea of this build was to get a very quick lair after scouting a protoss FFE, then use overlord pooping creep to build 3 proxy spine and thus take out the nexus.
But before getting into details, let's talk about the match up and the spirit of the build a little bit.
I'm currently in a guide-writting-spree, this one will be the 5th i wrote and the 3rd for this month alone. If you didn't read them already, definitely check out:My ZvZ guide My ZvT guideWith this ZvP guide, the aXa's trilogy guide is about to complete. If you are wondering why in the seven hell i'm dedicating so much time to Starcraft 2 right now, let say the waiting for Diablo III is killing me so much i need to recycle some of this energy into something about gaming 
I enjoin everyone not to take this guide as seriously as they did with my other guides. It is mostly a fun build, kind of cheesy, which will help you out to get rid of ladder anxiety.
Because sometimes, laddering is nothing but using build that will increase your win ratio. Sometimes, laddering is about having fun with stupid strategy. This one is definitely one of those.
I consider ZvP as one of the most difficult match up for Zerg, and to be specifics, i consider forge expand as one of the strongest build in the protoss arsenal.
I know that statistics prove me wrong, as Zerg have overall a better win ratio in this match up overall. I know as well that a turtling protoss using a lot of cannons and a quick expansion rate is near to unbeatable.
I don't know if it is bad luck, but i always end up against that kind of protoss, cannoning the whole map for an hour long game of slow agony.. And there is nothing you can do about it.
And the first step of this disgusting style is obviously, a forge expand. There is currently a lot of maps where forge expand is really, really strong.
For the last few weeks, i decided to work on the 3 Spine Push Nestea the great had enlighten us with months ago. I wanted to "cannon rush" and cheese protoss too. I was looking for payback.
First of all, i realized that it was impossible to do exactly what Nestea did: Killing the 2nd nexus with spinecrawler. Dual sight has a weird architecture and is not in the ladder map pool. On every single map of the ladder, you will not be able to reach the nexus because of cannons.
My first reaction was to simply try to overrun the protoss with mass zergling as soon as the wall was down. Of course, any smart protoss will add some cannons and buildings to fill the holes, and quickly i ended up dead.
Improving a build is an easy task as long as you ask yourself the right questions. And so i asked myself: After the 3 spine push, what kind of tech have i enable, and what kind of further tech do i need to get through a protoss wall? The answer was so obvious.
BWAARRRRGH![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jn4Me.jpg) Overlords and scoutingOverlords placement is an integrant part of a Zerg build order. The 3 Spine Push into Nydus rely entirely on overlords, and so they rightfully deserve the first part of this guide. Where you do need themIn order to execute this build, you'll need to set 2 to 3 overlords around your opponent's base. In the front: + Show Spoiler +And in the rear: + Show Spoiler +How to get there in time First of all, here is a quick list of maps where you can expect a FFE: -Tal'Darim Altar -Antiga Shipyard -Shakuras Plateau -Nezarim Crypt (I'm not sure about searing crater and Backwater Gulch or Abyssal Cavern, as they are my veto) Here is a graph sample on Tal'Darim illustrating how you should send your overlord: + Show Spoiler +On each map the process is the same: Send the 2 initial overlord in the center of the map. Drone scout at 10 food on big maps like Tal'Darim, or 12 on smaller maps like Shakuras Plateau. As soon as your drone has spotted the FFE, redirect your overlords in the right locations. If your opponent is not going for a FFE, well, the build is standard enough to switch directly into an usual game. Executing the buildThe build order+ Show Spoiler +9/10: 2nd Overlord 15/18: Extractor 15/18: Spawning pool 16/18: 3rd Overlord 16/18: 3 sets of zergling -Spend your next larvae on drone production -With the first 100 gas, start your Lair. -With the second set of 100 gas, start zergling speed. -When your Lair is half way or 2/3 complete (depending on the map) send 3 drones to build the proxy spine crawler. -When your Lair is done, build a queen. -Start zergling production with queen injects. Build an expand with the extra minerals -Build a nydus worm as soon as you reach 200 gas. -Nydus the protoss main and flood him with zergling 1) Target the probe, 2) deny the stargate 3) kill the nexus Surprise effect is the most important factor with this strategy. This is why you should always follow the following rules: -Never start Lair if the probe is in your base. Use the initial ling to deny it ! -Never build the spinecrawler in range of the protoss building. You need to stay out of sight ! To gain some time, move your overlord when spinecrawlers are halfway complete and start pooping creep at the right location. Then move your spinecrawlers. -Use only the 6 initial ling to defend your spinecrawlers. Rally every other zergling to your nydus worm in your base. -Try to slightly move your overlord if you see a pylon spotting the initial nydus location attempt. ReplaysAs it is not a meta-game build, let's be quick and jump right into replays: [url blocked] If megaupload doesn't work, here is fileserve: http://www.fileserve.com/file/h2URvG2/SCRushRep.zipHave fun ! And do not forget, with this kind of build, you HAVE to be BM ! After successfully nydusing your opponent, a little "noob" or "bwahahahaha" is always welcome
Blog
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283121
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"The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later."
I can't download the replay pack 
Anyways, would you recommend to place your expand earlier in order to seem like your expanding at a normal time? Cause otherwise one base zerg is pretty obvious >.<
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I uploaded it with fileserve. As long as you deny the probe with the initial ling, he won't see it coming. i don't recommand an early expand. You need every single drone !
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looks legit, QQ u got me interested in 1v1s again... no time for that.
seems pretty reliant on the toss not rushing SG too fast/not scouting tho? one phoenix and all your ovies/whole build goes down the toilet?
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Usually you can deny the stargate with the nydus. I have never seen a stargate fast enough to deny the overlords.
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It feels like this build is entirely based on your opponent not hiding a probe/sending a second probe to scout you after the initial one is chased out. Not seeing that natural and the protoss should prepare for both a one base nydus and roach bust. That being said though, it is a great cheese, well played.
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Well it's a cheese and i have to be honest, if the nydus is denied, you are pretty much screwed. I did not lost with it yet though.
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kinda related comment: I think it'd be good if more 'pseudo-cheeses' were used by zerg, cuz as it is now t/p can essentially count on the z going macro/10min no rush. so if zs would use more builds like this t/p would have to play more defensively/ delay their expos.
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zerg plays 10 mins no rush?
that was may be 3-4 months ago
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On September 06 2011 04:25 freetgy wrote:
zerg plays 10 mins no rush?
that was may be 3-4 months ago
What?
Please elaborate.
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omfg i remember that game. my zvp is suffering now I may just try this for lulz :D
btw fileserve is really annoying with all those ads
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sup DUDE!!! long time no see. I would pwn this strategy , too bad i quit sc2 :p
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Im working on my own nydus build with nyduses and hydras, its great you already have one figured out. And dont quit dude ^^ its a great game!
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Never said i was quitting sc2 !Just need D3 as well 
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On September 06 2011 04:07 tsarnicky wrote:
kinda related comment: I think it'd be good if more 'pseudo-cheeses' were used by zerg, cuz as it is now t/p can essentially count on the z going macro/10min no rush. so if zs would use more builds like this t/p would have to play more defensively/ delay their expos.
...? This is specifically a cheese, and realistically, there are many all-ins for the Zerg vs Protoss match-up. I fail to see where this comment is coming from? There are many different cheeses available to a Zerg, mostly varying from early pool, to 2 hatch all-ins, or early roach+ling all-in aggression.
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Not to be troll/QQ, BUT
I would love for this guy aXa, who comes out with very imaginative builds, to put his cheesey/gimmicky creativity into finding some less all-in, niche-y, GOOD stuff that I could actually use in my play! I have no desire to 9pool in all of my matchups, so I usually look to other players.
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On September 06 2011 08:47 GleaM wrote:
Not to be troll/QQ, BUT
I would love for this guy aXa, who comes out with very imaginative builds, to put his cheesey/gimmicky creativity into finding some less all-in, niche-y, GOOD stuff that I could actually use in my play! I have no desire to 9pool in all of my matchups, so I usually look to other players.
Actually if you had read the OP, this build is actually a 10/12scout15gas15pool that you choose to do ONLY if you scout a FFE, thus allowing you to safely switch back to a normal build if it's not the case, I tried it 5 times today and won all 5 games (the last time I didn't win right away, I managed to kill of the nexus then used a roach/hydra/ling/nydus in the midgame to end it) so it's actually pretty effective and a nice build to throw in a BoX.
An important part seems to be the initial position and the relocation of the 3 spine crawlers at the front, it seems you need a bit of practice to get the correct distance to the wall on each map. Also if the protoss has good control on his scouting probe it can be a pain to tech to lair.
Overall it punishes very well FFE and I'll probably use it from time to time to catch these nasty protoss off-guard  Good guide aXa!
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On September 06 2011 08:47 GleaM wrote:
Not to be troll/QQ, BUT
I would love for this guy aXa, who comes out with very imaginative builds, to put his cheesey/gimmicky creativity into finding some less all-in, niche-y, GOOD stuff that I could actually use in my play! I have no desire to 9pool in all of my matchups, so I usually look to other players.
His recent zvt guide is REALLY good! It even starts with a FE!! And works very, very well.
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I wonder how a 10pool adaptation would do, as I find 10pool to be my go-to build vs protoss thesedays, with 6 lings at 12,13,14 supply, into mass droning behind into a roach switch. Perhaps instead of the roach transition, a nydus transition, with 1st 100 gas to lair? I don't know, just an idea.
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Could you please not center format your guide, out makes it hard to read!
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Haha, I'm loving this build already. Always wanted to find a way to successfully Nydus rush an FE Toss. Will definitely use this to troll my Protoss friends in Customs.
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Can this actually be a standard way to punish FFE, or is there a way for protoss to easily handle it?
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On September 07 2011 08:59 Xanbatou wrote:
Can this actually be a standard way to punish FFE, or is there a way for protoss to easily handle it?
Protoss can actually beat this kinda easily if they see it coming. Its also a little map dependent as you can't do spine crawler on shakuras due to them being on high ground and what not.
As for trying to nydus the main now of days protosses are doing good at seeing this kind of stuff and able to just kill the worm with just probes. This will probably work at lower levels but higher levels you play a toss should see the nydus and easily kill it.
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On September 07 2011 09:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 08:59 Xanbatou wrote:
Can this actually be a standard way to punish FFE, or is there a way for protoss to easily handle it? Protoss can actually beat this kinda easily if they see it coming. Its also a little map dependent as you can't do spine crawler on shakuras due to them being on high ground and what not. As for trying to nydus the main now of days protosses are doing good at seeing this kind of stuff and able to just kill the worm with just probes. This will probably work at lower levels but higher levels you play a toss should see the nydus and easily kill it.
I'd agree with this. Almost every high level toss has good building placement which makes nydusing impossible unless your Toss opponent got lazy and didn't place pylons in proper spots.
The spine crawler part can work (on certain maps), but I'd honestly rather follow it up with Hydras+creep highway like Nestea did than rely on the toss not spotting the nydus. This just seems too gimmicky and dependent on the Toss making some huge mistakes for it to be viable, but perhaps I'm wrong.
Also can you upload a rep of you doing this on Shakuras? I don't feel like downloading the whole rep pack but I'm curious on how you managed to pull it off on that map.
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On September 07 2011 09:22 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 09:03 blade55555 wrote:On September 07 2011 08:59 Xanbatou wrote:
Can this actually be a standard way to punish FFE, or is there a way for protoss to easily handle it? Protoss can actually beat this kinda easily if they see it coming. Its also a little map dependent as you can't do spine crawler on shakuras due to them being on high ground and what not. As for trying to nydus the main now of days protosses are doing good at seeing this kind of stuff and able to just kill the worm with just probes. This will probably work at lower levels but higher levels you play a toss should see the nydus and easily kill it. I'd agree with this. Almost every high level toss has good building placement which makes nydusing impossible unless your Toss opponent got lazy and didn't place pylons in proper spots. The spine crawler part can work (on certain maps), but I'd honestly rather follow it up with Hydras+creep highway like Nestea did than rely on the toss not spotting the nydus. This just seems too gimmicky and dependent on the Toss making some huge mistakes for it to be viable, but perhaps I'm wrong. Also can you upload a rep of you doing this on Shakuras? I don't feel like downloading the whole rep pack but I'm curious on how you managed to pull it off on that map.
I watched it. He used an overlord for vision.
Also, you guys make good points. Even though its really, really sneaky, it still relies on the protoss player not seeing the nydus. If he does he could just pull probes to kill it =/. Sad, but I feel like it wont work to counter FFE...
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It works perfectly fine on shakuras. There is a replay of it in the replay pack, i won't upload it again just because you are getting lazy.
It depends not on the protoss making a "huge mistake", it depends if he knows this is coming or not. (Game sense, scouting)
The nydus comes too early for protoss to have a building in every possible location, so the only way for him to prevent the nydus is to know it is coming.
It's not gimmicky, it works exactly the same way as a medivac drop: Attracts your opponent attention somewhere to hit him somewhere else. 3 spinecrawlers knocking at his front door are a good enough distraction. This rush force a lot of reaction: Extra building, cannon, etc. The protoss doesn't have the money to place a pylon at every single angle.
Also, i don't know what you are implying with "high level" protoss, but high master protoss seems high enough to me.
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On September 07 2011 16:56 aXa wrote:
It works perfectly fine on shakuras. I think there is a replay of it in the replay pack.
It depends not on the protoss making a "huge mistake", it depends if he knows this is coming or not.
The nydus come too early for protoss to have a building in every possible location, so the only way for him to prevent the nydus is to know it is coming. Plus the fact that he is busy dealing with the spine crawler to distract him.
It's not gimmicky, it works exactly the same way as a medivac drop: Attracts your opponent attention somewhere to hit him somewhere else.
Also, i don't know what you are implying with "high level" protoss, but high master protoss seems high enough to me.
but it does depend on the protoss to make a big mistake. Its not in anyway like a medivac drop at all. You are staying 2 base, you are making a ton of units and spending 200/200 + 100/100 for a nydus worm where as a medivac drop is 100/100 for medivac + 8 marines and isn't instant lose if seen coming.
A good protoss has pylons everywhere so they can see possible nydus worms although its not commonly used now of days but it still requires a big mistake to not see the nydus worm (it doesn't take many pylons to have your whole base with vision to see nydus worm btw).
You also pretty much said it yourself you are hoping the spine crawlers are keeping him busy so he doesn't notice the nydus worm. That is a big mistake by protoss to focus on one thing. Thats actually a mistake for any player to make to focus solely on an attack when there could be drops or other things that could happen.
Not saying this build can't work but this can easily be shut down as well.
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The example of the medivac drop was for the attention thing: It is not gimmicky because you don't rely on the fact he won't notice it, but because you do everything you can for him to NOT notice it (aka distracting him)
A protoss cannot have pylon everywhere in his base at 7 min30 when you forced so many building in the front at 7 min.
If you guys had watched the replay, you'd know that in fact protoss couldn't "see" the nydus on the minimap every single time because he didn't have the money for pylon everywhere. So this is not minimap awareness involved, but "game sense"--> -What if zerg is about to nydus me- ?
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Sweet man! I remember the pure awesomeness of when Nestea did it in the GSL, but I've never really come around to doing it myself. I'm sure it can be executed with a fairly good winrate in EU plat league :D Really want to get off work so I can ladder now!
Oh, and btw, thanks for your other awesome guides. Have read and tried them all out!
Glhf!
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Thanks for the replays, they were extremely helpful. Do you have any replays of this working on the Shipyard? I tried this a few times and it was amazing on Tal'Darim but with the "tiered" naturals on Shipyard I find that the Protoss put cannons pretty close to the ramp, and there was no way for me to get sunkens within range without getting hit by the cannons. Furthermore, because of the design of that map, once the ramp had cannons there was no way to sneak them "around the side" to annoy the natural. Fortunately, the build gave me a fast enough Nydus that it didn't really matter; I feigned some pressure at his front with a handful of roaches, and then sent 7-8 roaches and ~16 lings in through the Nydus and swept his main easily! Thanks for the guide.
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No sorry i don't have a replay on shipyard for now.
You should not go for roaches, because your nydus timing will be delayed. Pure zergling allow you to nydus asap.
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Only reason I grabbed a few roaches is because without the creep/sunkens at the natural's wall-in (because Shipyard's weird natural expansion ramp), there was no other distraction to keep him preoccupied away from the nydus canal. On other maps, I tried it with straight lings to quite a bit of success.
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Just have to say, this build is awesome and it worked. My opponent was going robo so I got roaches (this is after killing his main and lots of tech/probes) instead of hydras... but I don't think it would have made a difference though because I crushed him. :D
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so aXa, I had the chance to use this strategy recently. It was on nerazim crypt, and I pulled it off nicely. The interesting thing about this all-in is that it doesn't necessarily end the game. A good protoss will just run his probes to his natural and wall/cannon off his ramp. You can continue into a 20-minute long game after this, although the protoss player is still pretty behind.
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I'm just wondering aXa, what league are you on what server... would help with my commentary/criticism
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I watched the replays and noticed one thing. The timing for the spines comes a little bit before warpgate finishes so i think if u made an effort to focus down the cybercore, most of the time you would kill that research. Have you considered this additional element?
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On September 07 2011 17:10 aXa wrote:
The example of the medivac drop was for the attention thing: It is not gimmicky because you don't rely on the fact he won't notice it, but because you do everything you can for him to NOT notice it (aka distracting him)
A protoss cannot have pylon everywhere in his base at 7 min30 when you forced so many building in the front at 7 min.
If you guys had watched the replay, you'd know that in fact protoss couldn't "see" the nydus on the minimap every single time because he didn't have the money for pylon everywhere. So this is not minimap awareness involved, but "game sense"--> -What if zerg is about to nydus me- ?
Even if the protoss can't see everywhere in his base, he should still hear it right?
I disagree about it not being gimmicky, unless it does a large amount of damage it doesn't transition easily into anything else. It's a cool cheese to know though nonetheless, though I prefer a hydra follow up.
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On September 13 2011 08:11 BadBadMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 17:10 aXa wrote:
The example of the medivac drop was for the attention thing: It is not gimmicky because you don't rely on the fact he won't notice it, but because you do everything you can for him to NOT notice it (aka distracting him)
A protoss cannot have pylon everywhere in his base at 7 min30 when you forced so many building in the front at 7 min.
If you guys had watched the replay, you'd know that in fact protoss couldn't "see" the nydus on the minimap every single time because he didn't have the money for pylon everywhere. So this is not minimap awareness involved, but "game sense"--> -What if zerg is about to nydus me- ? Even if the protoss can't see everywhere in his base, he should still hear it right? I disagree about it not being gimmicky, unless it does a large amount of damage it doesn't transition easily into anything else. It's a cool cheese to know though nonetheless, though I prefer a hydra follow up.
Lol, by the time you hear it, it's too late.
That being said, it is sort of gimmicky, and it pretty much relies on your opponent not having enough attention to spare, so I don't know if it will work on high masters players or something. Seems to work for me, but I'm only diamond.
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On September 13 2011 08:14 Xanbatou wrote:
Lol, by the time you hear it, it's too late.
Not really. His point was that you can't see all of your base to kill the nydus, but with good pylon placement there really aren't many/any places you don't have vision of, by simple deduction you can find it and kill it with your probes once you hear it.
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On September 13 2011 08:24 BadBadMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 08:14 Xanbatou wrote:
Lol, by the time you hear it, it's too late.
Not really. His point was that you can't see all of your base to kill the nydus, but with good pylon placement there really aren't many/any places you don't have vision of, by simple deduction you can find it and kill it with your probes once you hear it.
You are aware that the nydus only screams when it pops out of the ground right? As in, when it screams, that's when units start unloading?
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Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide.
Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^
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On September 13 2011 09:42 Yamulo wrote:
Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide.
Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^
I'm guessing what he's saying is from his personal play. I have trouble with a lot of similar things (at least styles) although I'm only in gold. If I'm playing a toss on a map where they can't FFE (very few of them as they can do the funky wall thing from the ramp to the nexus if they want) then I usually win. It's FFE builds I feel lost (mostly scouting problems). Since usually a toss can FFE, I often have a lot of trouble. Season 3 I've actually had about a 45ish% win rate vs. toss...
This build works great for me because it's a solid plan on what to do vs. a FFE toss that allows me to get way ahead in the midgame. When I do it right, I usually wipe their main and then I have 2 saturated bases while they are stuck on one. I usually just all-in them with roach/hydra/sling (often I'll try to squeeze out a +1 ranged, although it doesn't always happen - depends if I remember to start it early enough). They really have no defense if they're running off of 1 base. Usually they end up trying a 15 minutes 4gate (xD) and then I just crush them.
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On September 13 2011 10:14 RumbleBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 09:42 Yamulo wrote:
Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide.
Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^ I'm guessing what he's saying is from his personal play. I have trouble with a lot of similar things (at least styles) although I'm only in gold. If I'm playing a toss on a map where they can't FFE (very few of them as they can do the funky wall thing from the ramp to the nexus if they want) then I usually win. It's FFE builds I feel lost (mostly scouting problems). Since usually a toss can FFE, I often have a lot of trouble. Season 3 I've actually had about a 45ish% win rate vs. toss... This build works great for me because it's a solid plan on what to do vs. a FFE toss that allows me to get way ahead in the midgame. When I do it right, I usually wipe their main and then I have 2 saturated bases while they are stuck on one. I usually just all-in them with roach/hydra/sling (often I'll try to squeeze out a +1 ranged, although it doesn't always happen - depends if I remember to start it early enough). They really have no defense if they're running off of 1 base. Usually they end up trying a 15 minutes 4gate (xD) and then I just crush them.
I think you can take like a really really early third on a map like shakuras, but on the lame ass ladder vs of tal darime there are rocks at your third. That is the only map though were I think protoss really gets a default eco advantage since zerg can't take as quick of a safe third.
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On September 13 2011 09:42 Yamulo wrote:
Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide.
Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^
I guess he's talking more of his personal experience, but I share his opinion. I know Protoss players have been losing a little more lately but from what I can tell it's mostly with 2 base "all-ins" (don't really like that term, but you get my point). A real turtle that takes a relatively early 3rd is hard to punish even with Nestea's style, and it still feels like an automatic loss if he does get it.
I don't agree that it's near unbeatable but it's still incredibly hard, and I think with a little metagame change Protoss will be considered highly favoured again.
On September 13 2011 10:17 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:14 RumbleBadger wrote:On September 13 2011 09:42 Yamulo wrote:
Wait.... "I know a turtling protoss with cannons is near unbeatable"? Wtf? Maybe like 3 months ago... But now that is hardly the case. Also how is zvp their hardest mu when zerg last month had a higher win % against p than against t? Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you talking about the pro scene? Either way nice guide.
Edit: Might want to fix the title too ^^ I'm guessing what he's saying is from his personal play. I have trouble with a lot of similar things (at least styles) although I'm only in gold. If I'm playing a toss on a map where they can't FFE (very few of them as they can do the funky wall thing from the ramp to the nexus if they want) then I usually win. It's FFE builds I feel lost (mostly scouting problems). Since usually a toss can FFE, I often have a lot of trouble. Season 3 I've actually had about a 45ish% win rate vs. toss... This build works great for me because it's a solid plan on what to do vs. a FFE toss that allows me to get way ahead in the midgame. When I do it right, I usually wipe their main and then I have 2 saturated bases while they are stuck on one. I usually just all-in them with roach/hydra/sling (often I'll try to squeeze out a +1 ranged, although it doesn't always happen - depends if I remember to start it early enough). They really have no defense if they're running off of 1 base. Usually they end up trying a 15 minutes 4gate (xD) and then I just crush them. I think you can take like a really really early third on a map like shakuras, but on the lame ass ladder vs of tal darime there are rocks at your third. That is the only map though were I think protoss really gets a default eco advantage since zerg can't take as quick of a safe third.
You can do it, just not at an ideal place. People just take the "fourth" instead.
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On September 13 2011 06:59 Glon wrote:
I'm just wondering aXa, what league are you on what server... would help with my commentary/criticism
I'm high master player on Europe server (15th-20th)
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Axa, i'm having a bit trouble following up with this if the player doesn't quit. I am playing protosses that will just open star gate and then expand to a close third. What do you do in that case?
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Can't wait to try this out.
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So far I have used this strat roughly 10 times in low masters, and it hasn't failed yet.
Protoss just wall-up at their natural and generally don't leave their base, so there isn't much of a threat to scout out the spines. and even so, all attention gets diverted to the front, so they don't notice the nydus.
Very risky though. It IS an all-in, and I sometimes worry about wether or not they will just come and kill me.
Hasn't happened yet though.
Awesome write-up
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Against a stargate i follow with hydra as you zlready got lair
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Great build axa, i've tried every style of play you posted on TL and i have to say that i love this one!
It works very well for me on Tal'Darim but i had some troubles on the other maps, where there is a ramp (Antigua Shipyard, Shakuras, ...)
Is it worth doing it when the ramp doesnt allow you to reach gates/cyber/pylons whithout getting hit by the Canons? Does it matter if we do some damage on the front or it is just made to trick the opponent while we are "nydusing" his main?
I have another little question: how many drones do you make before the nydus hits? Do you keep it all after making the zerglings or you make 4-5 more drones during the lair building?
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How many zerglings do you need before you unborrow the nydus in the protoss base? If I do it as soon as I am able, I only have 8-10 speedlings ready once it completes, which seem too easy for the toss to kill with zealots and then destroy the nydus.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Just as a quick note: while good Protoss 'should' see the Nydus and kill it, I've seen MC lose to nydus on Tal Darim, and Hero very recently lost to a nydus on the same map.
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Guys, sometimes the answer is in the replay.
@Firewalk: I build drones until my first larvae injects kick in
@Guilo: You're doing something wrong, you should have around 20 lings at least. Maybe you delay the queen/injects. You got to be on top of that.
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aXa, have you tried something similar but with drop play instead of nydus?
ie. upgrade drop and ol speed and just drop the zerglings into the main instead?
Thanks!
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How about doing this build with overlord drops instead of nydus? Seems a little more reliable to me.
edit: whoah brain share
this could be the "zerg 1/1/1" if tweaked right, its 1base, ambiguous, but deadly
really if you just use the guide up to the point where you plop down nydus, that 200gas could be basically anything and it seems like its got rock solid safe timings if you scout forge FFE
might instantly die to real 1base allins
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Great build, I am a diamond terran player recently switched to zerg, and protoss 2 basing with a wall of got me pretty much every time.
Tried this once now and it worked perfectly.
Maybe it's worth to notice in your post aswell, that the protoss most probably attacks after you destroy his main nexus, so it's a good idea to throw down a few spines at your natural and get some roaches to prepare for this.
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Did anybody try to use the cancel hatch trick to build the spines ?
Then as soon lair finishes, you can create creep using an ovie. this way it would not be necessary to get that very early gas rendering this build all-inish.
when a spine is built using cancel hatch trick, it costs additional 75 mins for hatch cancel and it only has 2/3 of original hp when it comes up. on the other hand you might get an earlier timing without cutting too much economy.
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On October 03 2011 06:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Did anybody try to use the cancel hatch trick to build the spines ?
Then as soon lair finishes, you can create creep using an ovie. this way it would not be necessary to get that very early gas rendering this build all-inish.
when a spine is built using cancel hatch trick, it costs additional 75 mins for hatch cancel and it only has 2/3 of original hp when it comes up. on the other hand you might get an earlier timing without cutting too much economy.
This way your spines are a little too immobile and vulnerable. In close pos where there's been an FFE you might use the queen+ hatch cancel trick to do this more reliably though.
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Now I know next time on ladder I face a spinecrawler rush I might get a nydus worm also, good to know. ^^
Overall I think this strategy seems pretty valid, you usually as protoss doesnt place pylons everywhere in your base at the 7min mark, if you are not like making units out of all your gateways or chronoing out something that requires huge of supply.
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This would be be better if it was a 2 base build, but then it would be too late.
The reason it is weak on one base is that the Protoss can just sac the buildings at the front and spam cannons behind it. Considering you are one base he will not fall behind, then open stargate and just take complete map control while you're scrambling to get hydralisks out of your scarce larvae.
Nydus in the back of course will be countered just by scouting. The only people who say this is hard also complain about dealing with hydra/ling nydus.
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On October 03 2011 06:56 Macrobe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 06:41 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Did anybody try to use the cancel hatch trick to build the spines ?
Then as soon lair finishes, you can create creep using an ovie. this way it would not be necessary to get that very early gas rendering this build all-inish.
when a spine is built using cancel hatch trick, it costs additional 75 mins for hatch cancel and it only has 2/3 of original hp when it comes up. on the other hand you might get an earlier timing without cutting too much economy. This way your spines are a little too immobile and vulnerable. In close pos where there's been an FFE you might use the queen+ hatch cancel trick to do this more reliably though.
i meant you build them using hatch cancel at a somewhat hidden place near his nat, then uproot them (they don't lose health uprooted). as soon lair finishes, you move them straight to the creep, this should improve the timing by 30~40 seconds, so you can delay gas a bit and get an expo up maybe. the nydus can be somewhat delayed, as from the replay it looks like Protoss is panicing for some time as soon spines begin to poke ^^
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You, sir, are making my transition to Zerg easier.
Thank you.
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I've been mixing this build into my repertoire. It works great against FFEs, and I've only lost a few times with it (vs high diamonds and up). When I lose, it is because they either spotted my nydus and killed it, or I didn't macro properly after they turtled with cannons in their nat (since I destroyed the main).
I'm wondering if there is a way to do the 3 spinecrawler attack and follow it up with something other than a nydus. I can hide lair and the lack of expo with lings, protect building spines, but I can't control whether he finds my nydus or not. What viable options are there? Expand and macro (will you be too far behind to do this?)? Hydras w/ creep highway? Drops (too slow?)? Delay crawlers a little bit for something else, like an expo?
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On October 19 2011 13:30 mirumirai wrote:
I've been mixing this build into my repertoire. It works great against FFEs, and I've only lost a few times with it (vs high diamonds and up). When I lose, it is because they either spotted my nydus and killed it, or I didn't macro properly after they turtled with cannons in their nat (since I destroyed the main).
I'm wondering if there is a way to do the 3 spinecrawler attack and follow it up with something other than a nydus. I can hide lair and the lack of expo with lings, protect building spines, but I can't control whether he finds my nydus or not. What viable options are there? Expand and macro (will you be too far behind to do this?)? Hydras w/ creep highway? Drops (too slow?)? Delay crawlers a little bit for something else, like an expo?
I think the key here is starving the protoss. They will mostly be focusing on holding the front by spamming cannons and etc., so the idea is that they won't start covering their base with pylons because of that. That should allow you to land a nydus without it being spotted, but there have been a couple times where I haven't been able to and I sorta had to just hope he wouldn't notice it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6dnNS.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VVG3w.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pTaB0.png)
