EPT[G] aXa's ZvP: Revisiting a Nestea's build - Page 2
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KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 07 2011 08:59 Xanbatou wrote: Can this actually be a standard way to punish FFE, or is there a way for protoss to easily handle it? Protoss can actually beat this kinda easily if they see it coming. Its also a little map dependent as you can't do spine crawler on shakuras due to them being on high ground and what not. As for trying to nydus the main now of days protosses are doing good at seeing this kind of stuff and able to just kill the worm with just probes. This will probably work at lower levels but higher levels you play a toss should see the nydus and easily kill it. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On September 07 2011 09:03 blade55555 wrote: Protoss can actually beat this kinda easily if they see it coming. Its also a little map dependent as you can't do spine crawler on shakuras due to them being on high ground and what not. As for trying to nydus the main now of days protosses are doing good at seeing this kind of stuff and able to just kill the worm with just probes. This will probably work at lower levels but higher levels you play a toss should see the nydus and easily kill it. I'd agree with this. Almost every high level toss has good building placement which makes nydusing impossible unless your Toss opponent got lazy and didn't place pylons in proper spots. The spine crawler part can work (on certain maps), but I'd honestly rather follow it up with Hydras+creep highway like Nestea did than rely on the toss not spotting the nydus. This just seems too gimmicky and dependent on the Toss making some huge mistakes for it to be viable, but perhaps I'm wrong. Also can you upload a rep of you doing this on Shakuras? I don't feel like downloading the whole rep pack but I'm curious on how you managed to pull it off on that map. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On September 07 2011 09:22 Skwid1g wrote: I'd agree with this. Almost every high level toss has good building placement which makes nydusing impossible unless your Toss opponent got lazy and didn't place pylons in proper spots. The spine crawler part can work (on certain maps), but I'd honestly rather follow it up with Hydras+creep highway like Nestea did than rely on the toss not spotting the nydus. This just seems too gimmicky and dependent on the Toss making some huge mistakes for it to be viable, but perhaps I'm wrong. Also can you upload a rep of you doing this on Shakuras? I don't feel like downloading the whole rep pack but I'm curious on how you managed to pull it off on that map. I watched it. He used an overlord for vision. Also, you guys make good points. Even though its really, really sneaky, it still relies on the protoss player not seeing the nydus. If he does he could just pull probes to kill it =/. Sad, but I feel like it wont work to counter FFE... | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
It depends not on the protoss making a "huge mistake", it depends if he knows this is coming or not. (Game sense, scouting) The nydus comes too early for protoss to have a building in every possible location, so the only way for him to prevent the nydus is to know it is coming. It's not gimmicky, it works exactly the same way as a medivac drop: Attracts your opponent attention somewhere to hit him somewhere else. 3 spinecrawlers knocking at his front door are a good enough distraction. This rush force a lot of reaction: Extra building, cannon, etc. The protoss doesn't have the money to place a pylon at every single angle. Also, i don't know what you are implying with "high level" protoss, but high master protoss seems high enough to me. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 07 2011 16:56 aXa wrote: It works perfectly fine on shakuras. I think there is a replay of it in the replay pack. It depends not on the protoss making a "huge mistake", it depends if he knows this is coming or not. The nydus come too early for protoss to have a building in every possible location, so the only way for him to prevent the nydus is to know it is coming. Plus the fact that he is busy dealing with the spine crawler to distract him. It's not gimmicky, it works exactly the same way as a medivac drop: Attracts your opponent attention somewhere to hit him somewhere else. Also, i don't know what you are implying with "high level" protoss, but high master protoss seems high enough to me. but it does depend on the protoss to make a big mistake. Its not in anyway like a medivac drop at all. You are staying 2 base, you are making a ton of units and spending 200/200 + 100/100 for a nydus worm where as a medivac drop is 100/100 for medivac + 8 marines and isn't instant lose if seen coming. A good protoss has pylons everywhere so they can see possible nydus worms although its not commonly used now of days but it still requires a big mistake to not see the nydus worm (it doesn't take many pylons to have your whole base with vision to see nydus worm btw). You also pretty much said it yourself you are hoping the spine crawlers are keeping him busy so he doesn't notice the nydus worm. That is a big mistake by protoss to focus on one thing. Thats actually a mistake for any player to make to focus solely on an attack when there could be drops or other things that could happen. Not saying this build can't work but this can easily be shut down as well. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
A protoss cannot have pylon everywhere in his base at 7 min30 when you forced so many building in the front at 7 min. If you guys had watched the replay, you'd know that in fact protoss couldn't "see" the nydus on the minimap every single time because he didn't have the money for pylon everywhere. So this is not minimap awareness involved, but "game sense"--> -What if zerg is about to nydus me- ? | ||
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Dudevico
Sweden53 Posts
Oh, and btw, thanks for your other awesome guides. Have read and tried them all out! Glhf! | ||
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rudejohn
United States19 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
You should not go for roaches, because your nydus timing will be delayed. Pure zergling allow you to nydus asap. | ||
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rudejohn
United States19 Posts
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RumbleBadger
322 Posts
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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Glon
United States569 Posts
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marcmtlca
Canada15 Posts
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BadBadMan
United Kingdom62 Posts
On September 07 2011 17:10 aXa wrote: The example of the medivac drop was for the attention thing: It is not gimmicky because you don't rely on the fact he won't notice it, but because you do everything you can for him to NOT notice it (aka distracting him) A protoss cannot have pylon everywhere in his base at 7 min30 when you forced so many building in the front at 7 min. If you guys had watched the replay, you'd know that in fact protoss couldn't "see" the nydus on the minimap every single time because he didn't have the money for pylon everywhere. So this is not minimap awareness involved, but "game sense"--> -What if zerg is about to nydus me- ? Even if the protoss can't see everywhere in his base, he should still hear it right? I disagree about it not being gimmicky, unless it does a large amount of damage it doesn't transition easily into anything else. It's a cool cheese to know though nonetheless, though I prefer a hydra follow up. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:11 BadBadMan wrote: Even if the protoss can't see everywhere in his base, he should still hear it right? I disagree about it not being gimmicky, unless it does a large amount of damage it doesn't transition easily into anything else. It's a cool cheese to know though nonetheless, though I prefer a hydra follow up. Lol, by the time you hear it, it's too late. That being said, it is sort of gimmicky, and it pretty much relies on your opponent not having enough attention to spare, so I don't know if it will work on high masters players or something. Seems to work for me, but I'm only diamond. | ||
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BadBadMan
United Kingdom62 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:14 Xanbatou wrote: Lol, by the time you hear it, it's too late. Not really. His point was that you can't see all of your base to kill the nydus, but with good pylon placement there really aren't many/any places you don't have vision of, by simple deduction you can find it and kill it with your probes once you hear it. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On September 13 2011 08:24 BadBadMan wrote: Not really. His point was that you can't see all of your base to kill the nydus, but with good pylon placement there really aren't many/any places you don't have vision of, by simple deduction you can find it and kill it with your probes once you hear it. You are aware that the nydus only screams when it pops out of the ground right? As in, when it screams, that's when units start unloading? | ||
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