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On September 04 2011 18:08 Zoia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 18:02 Shootemup. wrote:On September 04 2011 17:57 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote:
I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin. Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself. If the Terran player is able to scout your tech lab, or maybe not since some Terrans myself included, like to put marines and other units on the cliffs of their main, meaning the reaper harass will be much less effective. Also, if they see the mass reaper, its a dead giveaway that you are doing this build, which means they can A) use the vikings to tank damage B) Stop making air units in favor of faster factories Also, your opponents in the video you posted had suboptimal siege positioning and control, meaning their tanks were very vulnerable to being picked off and their marines got sniped fairly easily. I feel like 3 or 4 tanks and a couple bunkers would stop your push cold, which is a fairly reasonable thing to get if you see a early bio allin. All very good points but let me make counter points. Do you know how many times my mass reaper has been scouted? 0 they are easy to hide you don't even need to have them in your base. Reapers are also like mutas. There is always a hole in the terrans base that you can slip in and do some damage. I don't care if you think you are the most amazing player and have the best positioning there is always a spot I can slip my reapers in. Okay so they do have 3-4 tanks and a couple bunkers but where at? Their expo? If they have that many units when my push comes there is no way they could have an expansion. Keep in mind how early this push comes. If they are just stationing themselves outside their base so they can expand quickly that gives me more room to micro my units taking less damage from the splash of the tanks. With 2 bunkers 3-4 tanks and a lot of marines(which they will need if they are planning on holding this) I could just expand myself and we are both just as allin
Yes, 3 Tanks at the expo with a couple bunkers at 10 minutes isnt an absurd thing to have, as you invest a lot in the early reapers which delays your push to ten minutes. I agree you could do some damage with the reapers, but in the video you posted your opponents failed to pull scvs or react quickly to the reapers, greatly increasing the damage you inflicted.
Overall, its a really strong allin build, but I feel like with proper siege tank positioning and limiting the damage from the reapers, that your push is going to be stopped.
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So if you kill 0 workers with the reapers can you still win? This is gimmiky, waaaaay tooo dependant on your opponent not expecting this cheesy style. If this became standard marine tank would shit on it.
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edit: I should rephrase
When do you get stim in this, if your opponent is committing a siege expand turtley style build?
Seems like stimming marauders in to punish tanks unsieged when they have to move because of a nuke threat could be great
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On September 05 2011 04:23 Bonkerz wrote:
So if you kill 0 workers with the reapers can you still win? This is gimmiky, waaaaay tooo dependant on your opponent not expecting this cheesy style. If this became standard marine tank would shit on it.
Did you watch any of the replays? Or are you just making this up?
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I like that people takes the time to do build guides, but after reading the first page Im not gonna read anymore. When people ask for weaknesses etc. you get really defensive and just claim they talk like they dont understand anything. I just dont get it.. Why post in the first place
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Gonna give it a try:D
thx for sharing this!
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Iono, this build looks pretty stable to me. Sure this unit composition will begin to weaken during mid game to late game but it has strong potential early. I think you should invest your gas into fast upgrades and transition into pure bio play with Ghost. With the Ghost, you can use your nuke to break seige lines and storm in with heavy upgraded bio forces which would be pretty damn strong vs marine tanks considering your upgrade advantage but mass hellion will become problem but if the nerf to the hellion goes through, I believe this could transition well into a pure bio transition. Bio is still semi viable which MMA has displayed at MLG. Of course from here on you just play like how you would want to play bio and probably transition into tanks late game. Marine tanks will probably be viable again after the Hellion nerf so marine tanks is definitely not dead yet vs mech late game.
I think bio transition is just more fluent than transition into mech. This build is pretty strong 1 base timing and can contain your opponent well. The reaper do their job well and isnt really necessarily have to do damage like most people here believe.
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i like this guide because it has a video where the creator of this built shows and explains certain things with examples
i will try it for sure
there the kind of players who enjoy to find out or play new builts
thx for the share
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I'm working on a replay pack with games of me losing and winning hopefully will have atleast 25 different TvTs
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I tried this build out today and beat a diamond T (I'm gold). It is a very micro intensive build so be prepared. I would practice a few rounds vs the computer before trying it against the player if you are not used to microing that much.
I cannot think of any build that would hard counter this since it's largely dependent on your micro:
Two port banshee: Micro battle
1-1-1: I think this is the worst build to go agains this. Reapers should do a lot of damage
Any FE: Ghosts can decimate SCV's and you wont have enough units to defend
Thor: Again a micro battle. If ghosts target SCV's the marauders should easily handle the thor
6 Rax: Wont have stim, reapers in a bunker should be able to handle well. Should give you a large econ/tech advantage.
2 Factory tank: This is the only build that I think wold be really effective. But it's not a counter, it depends on correct tank positioning and tank micro. You could even all in with your SCV's to absorb the tank fire
Mass marauders could be good but who does that?
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I like this build (ghosts/nukes are such a great addon to the terran play...  )! Im gonna try it! Good job!
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someone tried this vs me (diamond ladder) and i rolled it over with a reaper FE into mech
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Could you post a replay? Reaper FE IMO would be a terrible counter because ghosts and marauders are not light and ghosts can snipe reapers. Moreover since this build is not a FE you are going to behind on army production from the start.
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On September 05 2011 08:30 jazzman wrote:
Could you post a replay? Reaper FE IMO would be a terrible counter because ghosts and marauders are not light and ghosts can snipe reapers. Moreover since this build is not a FE you are going to behind on army production from the start.
I agree
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Thanks for sharing this Zoia. I like you have been fascinated by the ghost and i've been using them in TvT particularly for a number of months now. My ghost play has always been marine ghost really, which has been fantastic against openers like hellions, banshee, marine rush or just MMM. The build wasn't very successful against early tanks or even just a couple of bunkers however, and nukes didn't always solve the problem.
This build though packs much more of a punch with being marauder heavy, so tanks and bunkers are no longer a problem with the ghosts still working wonders against hellions banshees and marines. I think this build really suits the style i'm comfortable playing. I'm only plat but I can snipe pretty well, so the deciding factor is more to do with macro and being able to keep up production during all the micro.
I'll let you know of a couple of games I tried:
After some practise I played a Terran on the ladder and the build was pretty succesful. He reaper expanded, but luckily i was able to snipe the reaper with my own before he got into my base. He then got about 4 tanks and a bunker at his cliff but I was able to drop a nice nuke on the edge, and snipe all the marines he sent to try and take out the ghost. Cleaning the rest of his army was quite easy, I sniped all his scv's, however somehow I couldn't finish him right away, he had medivacs and was able to keep some of his units alive enough to drop my mineral lines frequently. I won in the end but I was certain I had won at about the 10 minute mark.
I then practised against a team mate who is in Diamond now. He commonly opens with banshee in TvT's, I probably could have used this bit of metagame to my advantage but I wanted to make sure by scouting. Unfortunately he spotted my reaper and was able to deny scouting to his base, meaning I missed the tech starport. Either way I expected he might go banshees so I had a ghost academy down in time. The issue was after building the extra 4 reapers I started building marauders. When I sent the next lot of reapers i saw his starport, but by then it was too late, since his banshee was already in my base killing workers and I had no ghosts out. By the time I had 2 ghosts I had probably lost a 3rd of my scv's, which left me behind the entire game. I think if I had the two ghosts before the banshee arrived I might have won quite confidently against the rest of his build.
I'm trying to fix the timing of the ghosts when it comes to banshees, since it takes so long for ghosts to come out.
I was wondering what your thinking was on the matter. If I see a starport should I build ghosts after reapers immediately? If so could this delay marauder production or the expansion longer than intended?
Another thing is that 3 reapers is the magic number to 1 shot scv's. So 5 reapers is a confusing number to attack with. Any reason for 5? or was this just a good size to go with in case a couple die?
Good luck with improving the build further.
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On September 05 2011 11:51 GeisArchrion wrote:
Another thing is that 3 reapers is the magic number to 1 shot scv's. So 5 reapers is a confusing number to attack with. Any reason for 5? or was this just a good size to go with in case a couple die?
Good luck with improving the build further.
Yeah I gotta agree with you, I think that if you reduce the amount of reapers produced to 3 instead of 5, with the earlier 100 gas you could get your ghosts earlier in order to defend against any banshee harass, since, as stated, 3 reapers allows you to kill an scv or a marine in 1 shot. Also, this could potentially make the initial push a bit faster, which sometimes makes a big difference, especially in the early game. My only doubt would be if the earlier ghost academy would make a conflict with the amount of minerals that you mine since a ghost is 200/100 while a marauder is a much cheaper unit, mineral wise, and gas wise. I would have to test it out tomorrow and see how it goes compared to a 5 reaper opening.
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Try adding a wall and a bunker into the mix. Bunker if you see no gas.
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Have you tried getting Cloak and EMPing the Orbital? That seems like a good way for this build to do damage without having to commit fully to some sort of Marauder push which could go very poorly. Seeing as this build essentially starts as a 3 reaper rush, I think there can be better transitions much like SCDPride's build.
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On September 05 2011 16:54 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Have you tried getting Cloak and EMPing the Orbital? That seems like a good way for this build to do damage without having to commit fully to some sort of Marauder push which could go very poorly. Seeing as this build essentially starts as a 3 reaper rush, I think there can be better transitions much like SCDPride's build.
EMP orbital = no energy left to cloak, unless you plan on sacking a ghost to give another ghost a few seconds to derp around
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how does ghost sniper work on scv? Scv are mechanical units and snipe only works on biological
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EPT
