For the longest time TvT has been one of my weakest matchups. I never really liked the play style involved with it(not many people do) In TvZ and TvP since the beta I've been using mass ghost even before the infestor craze. I just love the unit so much that I decided I wanted to make a strong build for TvT that involves that very unit. This is that build.
Things to note before going in
-It is viable against almost every terran opener out there. (if it was good against everything then this game wouldn't be fun now would it) -You must have a high APM and strong micro to use this build(Master league 750 and I still have trouble with it) -Must be able to understand what you see when you scout and react accordingly
This is not a build that a bronze level or plat level player could pick up and notice extreme success like I have. My win/loss ratio in TvT before I started using this build was about 45%. It currently is over 70% and this build is no where near refined yet.
The purpose of this build is to scout with reapers while harassing/containing with them(delaying tech structures and sniping scvs/mules) and then transitioning into a heavy ghost/marauder ball. Late game throw in a couple nukes and tanks and you have a very strong build throughout the entire game.
Now I'm not the best player out there. As far as I'm concerned I'm a pretty terrible player but most people would say the same about themselves. I'm currently rated 750 in my master league 125 wins 100 losses. My TvT win loss ratio is over 70% now because of this build. It has very few counters.
This build uses a quick 3 rax with 2 gas to pump out a quick amount of reapers to scout and then harass a worker line. With your first reaper you build you scout your opponent see what kind of tech path he is going, snipe workers building those tech paths, and then get out before you die if you can. You then send in another 4 reapers(keep these hidden from scouts/scans) and do as much damage to his worker line as possible. Reapers beat red flame hellions and marines in a 1v1 so keep this in mind.
You then transition into a heavy ghost marauder ball(Depending on if you see tanks or banshees you decide how many ghost you need) I've been using ghost since the beta so I've known for a very long time how strong snipe is. People are just now starting to realize how damn strong ghost are especially in the TvZ match up.
Depending on whether or not you scouted a quick expand build or a pressure build(aka bfh drops or cloak banshees) you decide to push. Normally in TvT people do pressure expands so once you hold against the banshees(A banshee beats a ghost in a 1v1 but you should have atleast 2 ghost by the time 1 banshee arrives...also emp > cloak) or BFH(marauders with concussive shell ftw!) so you wait to hold off that before pushing. If they guy is being cautious build 3 extra marauders and leave them home(normally people just leave if they scout ghost with the banshee) and push with a good force of 3-4 ghost and 7-10 marauders.
Normally I find that I can win with this first push because of how strong snipe + stimmed marauders are but if you don't you expand as you push(always do this no matter what) and get siege tanks and nukes for a contain.
10 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital and build a marine 17 gas When marine finishes get a tech lab When tech lab finishes build reaper Build 2 more rax and put tech labs on both of them First reaper should be finished by now go scout and harass with it Get stim and build 4 more reapers(would make 5 in total) Build Ghost academy and when reapers are done start pumping out marauders and ghost(if you scout a quick banshee get ghost academy quicker) When you push build a CC From there you just get factories for tanks and keep pumping out units for contain,
Sorry the build order ends after 17 gas supply wise I just normally build shit as I can afford it
So with the reapers you get full knowledge of what your opponent is up to. Even if he knows you are going reapers you should be able to slip 1-2 in to see whats going on. In a game like starcraft where people go builds that are meant to catch you off guard knowledge is key.
Bit of a joke with that but ghost still destroy shit. Ghost with snipe beat marines marauders SCVs reapers and other ghost. Sniping an SCV building a bunker HELL YEAH! Sniping SCVs repairing a tank HELL YEAH! EMP also takes off cloak from banshees and energy from medivacs and ravens. They also are pretty damn strong units and can beat most things in a 1v1.
3.This build is strong against almost every opener out there + Show Spoiler +
Like I've stated before the most standard openers in TvT right now are banshee expand and banshee expand and for reasons already stated this build stops those. However this build is good against fast expands, quick siege tanks, and heavy bio play. There is 1 weakness but it is still a good call in that matchup but I'll go into that later.
Just going to give you a quick way to respond and alter the build against what you scout. This won't be very in depth because you'll have to react in a way you feel comfortable. Banshee + Show Spoiler +
If you scout banshees then just get your ghost academy a few seconds quick than you normally would. Even if you don't though you should get out 2 ghost before you lose to many scvs. Also use the marine you built at the start to help hold off the banshees. If the guy has bad micro you can kill the banshee with just 1 ghost and 1 marine.
Fairly easy to beat because you have the 2 units that counter this pretty hard...ghost and marauders. Snipe marines and kill the tanks when they push and then move to their base and walk right in. If they are playing marine tank but a turtle style use your reapers to harass his mineral line while you push his front. Snipe any scvs that are repairing bunkers/tanks and then focus on sniping the rest of the marines. This is the easiest opener to beat.
Again the best part about this build is scouting and once you scout the bfh drop(fairly obvious to see) you just wait for the drop to come and smash it with your marauders with almost no scv losses. Most people follow up this build with an expand but either way after you hold push and leave a few rauders in your mineral line to hold a counter drop. You should be able to walk into his base at this point.
Its not the hellions its the banshees. You need 2 ghost per banshee and that just costs more than the banshees would. If you scout this expand get turrets and change you're game plan. I haven't found a good transition with ghost/marauder that can beat this yet.
If they get enough tanks before you push be very careful. Expand and try get 2 factories to match their tank number. Use nukes and tanks to try and contain on 2 bases
If you go late game you'll want to do your best to contain them on 2 bases. Get as many tanks and hellions that you can(hellions if they are going pure marine tank) and contain them with nukes and tanks. Doing ghost drops are fun for sniping scvs while using the hold fire command. Take control of the map and play a standard game from this point out. Using nukes and ghost of course ^_^
On September 04 2011 15:22 johanngrunt wrote: Just a few supplemental questions
1) How important are upgrades to this build? Do you get the armor upgrade, or the attack upgrade, or do you go 2 ebays. 2) What's a good time to get a starport for medivacs? 3) Does the army composition remain gas dependent or mineral dependent?
1. For the first push you can't afford any upgrades besides stim and concussive shell. After that I prefer to get only 1 engineering bay and just get upgrades one at a time. 2. All depends on what he is doing. If he is pumping out siege tanks like crazy you need a second factory to keep up with him so it is delayed a bit. Normally though around the 11-12 minute mark 3. Balances out
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
This. You can Snipe all you want, but Marine production time is faster than getting energy for your Ghosts to kill then as well as faster than Reaper or Ghost production time. How are you going to deal with 5+ Barracks Marine off 2-3 bases? It's a possible transition if your build gets scouted.
I would say a Tank transition, but can you get enough in time?
Also, how would this work against the Korean Expand -> BFH spam -> Tank spam -> 3rd?
It pretty much nullifies your ability to push as if you leave 3 Marauders in your base, he just goes in with like 10-15 Hellions and if you push with your army, he sweeps in, kills your workers and comes back to defend.
I would say a wall-in would do well, but what if he just gets a Medivac and elevates?
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
This. You can Snipe all you want, but Marine production time is faster than getting energy for your Ghosts to kill then as well as faster than Reaper or Ghost production time. How are you going to deal with 5+ Barracks Marine off 2-3 bases? It's a possible transition if your build gets scouted.
I would say a Tank transition, but can you get enough in time?
Also, how would this work against the Korean Expand -> BFH spam -> Tank spam -> 3rd?
It pretty much nullifies your ability to push as if you leave 3 Marauders in your base, he just goes in with like 10-15 Hellions and if you push with your army, he sweeps in, kills your workers and comes back to defend.
I would say a wall-in would do well, but what if he just gets a Medivac and elevates?
Off of 2 - 3 bases did you even read the entire post? Once you are on multiple bases you don't sit just on marine ghost the entire time that you will have tanks/hellions as well as some air. Go read through how to react to certain builds and you'll learn all this.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing
I do realize that this really isn't the current metagame, but it's still a viable option so It should be discussed, especially with the likelihood of hellions being nerfed in the next patch. Can you pressure him effectively if he also decides to expand relatively fast and go for an economic lead? It seems difficult to do as I doubt you'll have enough units to break a fortified marine position without tanks.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing
I do realize that this really isn't the current metagame, but it's still a viable option so It should be discussed, especially with the likelihood of hellions being nerfed in the next patch. Can you pressure him effectively if he also decides to expand relatively fast and go for an economic lead? It seems difficult to do as I doubt you'll have enough units to break a fortified marine position without tanks.
If you scout the quick expand you don't invest as much into reaper harass and have a quicker timing attack with stim. Marauders crush bunkers as well as small amounts of marines. With the ghost there to snipe repairing SCVs and marines you can do enough damage to get ahead of him economically.
Ghosts in TvT came to my mind too (not pure ghost idd, but enough to snipe their bio support), but then I thought about how the opponent would have to react. I) he would have to make ghosts too in order to emp your ghosts 2) you'd need to cloak and spread out your ghosts and try to be the first to land emps 3) both players would need to get a raven to detect the opponents ghosts 4) Viking wars ....
I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
On September 04 2011 17:51 FreshDumbledore wrote: Ghosts in TvT came to my mind too (not pure ghost idd, but enough to snipe their bio support), but then I thought about how the opponent would have to react. I) he would have to make ghosts too in order to emp your ghosts 2) you'd need to cloak and spread out your ghosts and try to be the first to land emps 3) both players would need to get a raven to detect the opponents ghosts 4) Viking wars ....
I don't anyone ever thinking oh shit he is getting ghost let me go my own ghost to emp his ghost. The longer the game goes on the more mech/air the game will turn so in return your own ghost become useless against his heavy mech. Sorry but don't see this ever happening
On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote: I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself.
On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote: I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself.
If the Terran player is able to scout your tech lab, or maybe not since some Terrans myself included, like to put marines and other units on the cliffs of their main meaning the reaper harass will be much less effective. Also, if they see the mass reaper, its a dead giveaway that you are doing this build, which means they can
A) use the vikings to tank damage
B) Stop making air units in favor of faster factories
Also, your opponents in the video you posted had suboptimal siege positioning and control, meaning their tanks were very vulnerable to being picked off and their marines got sniped fairly easily. I feel like 3 or 4 tanks and a couple bunkers would stop your push cold, which is a fairly reasonable thing to get if you see a early bio allin.
On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote: I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself.
If the Terran player is able to scout your tech lab, or maybe not since some Terrans myself included, like to put marines and other units on the cliffs of their main, meaning the reaper harass will be much less effective. Also, if they see the mass reaper, its a dead giveaway that you are doing this build, which means they can
A) use the vikings to tank damage
B) Stop making air units in favor of faster factories
Also, your opponents in the video you posted had suboptimal siege positioning and control, meaning their tanks were very vulnerable to being picked off and their marines got sniped fairly easily. I feel like 3 or 4 tanks and a couple bunkers would stop your push cold, which is a fairly reasonable thing to get if you see a early bio allin.
All very good points but let me make counter points.
Do you know how many times my mass reaper has been scouted? 0 they are easy to hide you don't even need to have them in your base. Reapers are also like mutas. There is always a hole in the terrans base that you can slip in and do some damage. I don't care if you think you are the most amazing player and have the best positioning there is always a spot I can slip my reapers in.
Okay so they do have 3-4 tanks and a couple bunkers but where at? Their expo? If they have that many units when my push comes there is no way they could have an expansion. Keep in mind how early this push comes. If they are just stationing themselves outside their base so they can expand quickly that gives me more room to micro my units taking less damage from the splash of the tanks. With 2 bunkers 3-4 tanks and a lot of marines(which they will need if they are planning on holding this) I could just expand myself and we are both just as allin
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post.
honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time).
eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post.
honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time).
eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post.
honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time).
eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though
Why make unfounded assumptions and snide jabs about 'my' play style when you actually no nothing about me? No I don't marine/tank every game. In fact I hardly anymore. My concern is precisely that people who marine/tank every game can hold off a build like this without having to do anything special (minor tweaks in their build). Anyways I'm done here. I'll probably try this build on customs a little bit to see how well it works.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post.
honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time).
eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though
Why make unfounded assumptions and snide jabs about 'my' play style when you actually no nothing about me? No I don't marine/tank every game. In fact I hardly anymore. My concern is precisely that people who marine/tank every game can hold off a build like this without having to do anything special (minor tweaks in their build). Anyways I'm done here. I'll probably try this build on customs a little bit to see how well it works.
The point I was tryin to make was very few people open standard marine tank any more. From my experience with this build standard marine tank is the easiest to deal with. Anyways best of luck let me know what you think of the build once you've tried it.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post.
honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time).
eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though
Why make unfounded assumptions and snide jabs about 'my' play style when you actually no nothing about me? No I don't marine/tank every game. In fact I hardly anymore. My concern is precisely that people who marine/tank every game can hold off a build like this without having to do anything special (minor tweaks in their build). Anyways I'm done here. I'll probably try this build on customs a little bit to see how well it works.
I think the "your standard safe marine tank" is a phrase and not intended to mean you specifically, Joe.
On September 04 2011 18:59 Soluhwin wrote: 0.0 I read the title and didn't expect anything near this solid... How on earth do you come up with something like this?
Give you just a little back story on me. I've been playing this game since the beta and been using ghost since then. I was pretty much inspired by TLO right from the get go and since then in every matchup I've tried to do crazy things that no one else was doing. Transferred all that knowledge into this build.
edit: also this isn't every solid there are still several things that still need to be worked on/improved. That is why I'm bringing it to the community to see what everyone else can get out of it
When he says it is weak to Tanks, he really means it. Reaper openers and ghost openers are typically vulnerable to tanks and can't do any damage against builds that open with tank. I cast a game recently in which a GM did this build and got crushed handily by marine/tank, it wasn't even close. NrGLuckyFool was the player who did the build and abSxMaSa was the opponent, both of them are GM.
I think there is no advantage to doing this build instead of just the SCDPride 3 reaper rush. I love ghosts, but there are better ways to use them. A gas first banshee opener will both defend the reapers and counter attack very well, which is one problem that Pride's build had and you simply won't have ghosts in time to defend if you made reapers first.
after defending the first cloaked banshee, do i just attack? or do i defend the 2nd one as well? cuz just now i tried going right after the first one and my opponent just sent a 2nd banshee and i didnt know what to stop it with :/
ive done this before, but mine was a lot quicker, going with 5 marauders, 2 ghost, no reapers. ill give this a try though, seems solid and my kinda playstyle
thanks for posting this, i will try it out on ladder. I like this build very much, because as you showed its good against most tvt openings but the best part about it is that you main army comp is made out of a barracks with a tech lab. So all you have to do is make barracks with tech lab and you can adjust your army comp accordingly. Instead with like a reaper expand, you make a reaper and then go marine tank or something, like you harass with one reaper then your done, with this build you can be like, SURPRISE! 5 reapers in your mineral line in the midgame...
1500 masters season 2
EDIT: I have a question. For theorycraftings sake, you tried this opening vs a tutling terran who went mech and you could not break him early game. Now he pushes out very very very cautiously, leaves some siege tanks in his mineral lines, puts a ring of turrets around his base, and takes every expo on the map and takes control of xel naga watch towers. How do you stop like hard turtle slow mech? One way I thought of was to try to catch him out of position, but for again theorycraftings sake, hes too good to be caught out of position. Also a lot of drop play, on his tanks and in his base might be good.
My second game of the day and already had someone do this against me on (Master League) ladder. I guess people are gagging for a way off the Hellion/Banshee openings that mech has all but enforced.
Seemed solid enough and delayed my expansion for a while until I got enough tanks to slow put out, but he never did the nuke and rush on my ramp (which may have won him the game), instead opting for a double expand. Without the nuke it seems a rather pointless opening against mech, since the Ghosts can't snipe anything and just end up as glorified Marines. Once you scout a Hellion opening it seems it'd be good just to get one or two for nukes (if you're doing that) and switch into whatever else it is you are going for.
I've got to say... I love this build you made, I understand it is not completely refined and that it could be improved, which makes it so much better. Just used it and won easily with the first push. Kudos to you sir.
On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote: I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself.
If the Terran player is able to scout your tech lab, or maybe not since some Terrans myself included, like to put marines and other units on the cliffs of their main, meaning the reaper harass will be much less effective. Also, if they see the mass reaper, its a dead giveaway that you are doing this build, which means they can
A) use the vikings to tank damage
B) Stop making air units in favor of faster factories
Also, your opponents in the video you posted had suboptimal siege positioning and control, meaning their tanks were very vulnerable to being picked off and their marines got sniped fairly easily. I feel like 3 or 4 tanks and a couple bunkers would stop your push cold, which is a fairly reasonable thing to get if you see a early bio allin.
All very good points but let me make counter points.
Do you know how many times my mass reaper has been scouted? 0 they are easy to hide you don't even need to have them in your base. Reapers are also like mutas. There is always a hole in the terrans base that you can slip in and do some damage. I don't care if you think you are the most amazing player and have the best positioning there is always a spot I can slip my reapers in.
Okay so they do have 3-4 tanks and a couple bunkers but where at? Their expo? If they have that many units when my push comes there is no way they could have an expansion. Keep in mind how early this push comes. If they are just stationing themselves outside their base so they can expand quickly that gives me more room to micro my units taking less damage from the splash of the tanks. With 2 bunkers 3-4 tanks and a lot of marines(which they will need if they are planning on holding this) I could just expand myself and we are both just as allin
Yes, 3 Tanks at the expo with a couple bunkers at 10 minutes isnt an absurd thing to have, as you invest a lot in the early reapers which delays your push to ten minutes. I agree you could do some damage with the reapers, but in the video you posted your opponents failed to pull scvs or react quickly to the reapers, greatly increasing the damage you inflicted.
Overall, its a really strong allin build, but I feel like with proper siege tank positioning and limiting the damage from the reapers, that your push is going to be stopped.
So if you kill 0 workers with the reapers can you still win? This is gimmiky, waaaaay tooo dependant on your opponent not expecting this cheesy style. If this became standard marine tank would shit on it.
On September 05 2011 04:23 Bonkerz wrote: So if you kill 0 workers with the reapers can you still win? This is gimmiky, waaaaay tooo dependant on your opponent not expecting this cheesy style. If this became standard marine tank would shit on it.
Did you watch any of the replays? Or are you just making this up?
I like that people takes the time to do build guides, but after reading the first page Im not gonna read anymore. When people ask for weaknesses etc. you get really defensive and just claim they talk like they dont understand anything. I just dont get it.. Why post in the first place
Iono, this build looks pretty stable to me. Sure this unit composition will begin to weaken during mid game to late game but it has strong potential early. I think you should invest your gas into fast upgrades and transition into pure bio play with Ghost. With the Ghost, you can use your nuke to break seige lines and storm in with heavy upgraded bio forces which would be pretty damn strong vs marine tanks considering your upgrade advantage but mass hellion will become problem but if the nerf to the hellion goes through, I believe this could transition well into a pure bio transition. Bio is still semi viable which MMA has displayed at MLG. Of course from here on you just play like how you would want to play bio and probably transition into tanks late game. Marine tanks will probably be viable again after the Hellion nerf so marine tanks is definitely not dead yet vs mech late game.
I think bio transition is just more fluent than transition into mech. This build is pretty strong 1 base timing and can contain your opponent well. The reaper do their job well and isnt really necessarily have to do damage like most people here believe.
I tried this build out today and beat a diamond T (I'm gold). It is a very micro intensive build so be prepared. I would practice a few rounds vs the computer before trying it against the player if you are not used to microing that much.
I cannot think of any build that would hard counter this since it's largely dependent on your micro:
Two port banshee: Micro battle 1-1-1: I think this is the worst build to go agains this. Reapers should do a lot of damage Any FE: Ghosts can decimate SCV's and you wont have enough units to defend Thor: Again a micro battle. If ghosts target SCV's the marauders should easily handle the thor 6 Rax: Wont have stim, reapers in a bunker should be able to handle well. Should give you a large econ/tech advantage. 2 Factory tank: This is the only build that I think wold be really effective. But it's not a counter, it depends on correct tank positioning and tank micro. You could even all in with your SCV's to absorb the tank fire
Could you post a replay? Reaper FE IMO would be a terrible counter because ghosts and marauders are not light and ghosts can snipe reapers. Moreover since this build is not a FE you are going to behind on army production from the start.
On September 05 2011 08:30 jazzman wrote: Could you post a replay? Reaper FE IMO would be a terrible counter because ghosts and marauders are not light and ghosts can snipe reapers. Moreover since this build is not a FE you are going to behind on army production from the start.
Thanks for sharing this Zoia. I like you have been fascinated by the ghost and i've been using them in TvT particularly for a number of months now. My ghost play has always been marine ghost really, which has been fantastic against openers like hellions, banshee, marine rush or just MMM. The build wasn't very successful against early tanks or even just a couple of bunkers however, and nukes didn't always solve the problem.
This build though packs much more of a punch with being marauder heavy, so tanks and bunkers are no longer a problem with the ghosts still working wonders against hellions banshees and marines. I think this build really suits the style i'm comfortable playing. I'm only plat but I can snipe pretty well, so the deciding factor is more to do with macro and being able to keep up production during all the micro.
I'll let you know of a couple of games I tried:
After some practise I played a Terran on the ladder and the build was pretty succesful. He reaper expanded, but luckily i was able to snipe the reaper with my own before he got into my base. He then got about 4 tanks and a bunker at his cliff but I was able to drop a nice nuke on the edge, and snipe all the marines he sent to try and take out the ghost. Cleaning the rest of his army was quite easy, I sniped all his scv's, however somehow I couldn't finish him right away, he had medivacs and was able to keep some of his units alive enough to drop my mineral lines frequently. I won in the end but I was certain I had won at about the 10 minute mark.
I then practised against a team mate who is in Diamond now. He commonly opens with banshee in TvT's, I probably could have used this bit of metagame to my advantage but I wanted to make sure by scouting. Unfortunately he spotted my reaper and was able to deny scouting to his base, meaning I missed the tech starport. Either way I expected he might go banshees so I had a ghost academy down in time. The issue was after building the extra 4 reapers I started building marauders. When I sent the next lot of reapers i saw his starport, but by then it was too late, since his banshee was already in my base killing workers and I had no ghosts out. By the time I had 2 ghosts I had probably lost a 3rd of my scv's, which left me behind the entire game. I think if I had the two ghosts before the banshee arrived I might have won quite confidently against the rest of his build.
I'm trying to fix the timing of the ghosts when it comes to banshees, since it takes so long for ghosts to come out.
I was wondering what your thinking was on the matter. If I see a starport should I build ghosts after reapers immediately? If so could this delay marauder production or the expansion longer than intended?
Another thing is that 3 reapers is the magic number to 1 shot scv's. So 5 reapers is a confusing number to attack with. Any reason for 5? or was this just a good size to go with in case a couple die?
On September 05 2011 11:51 GeisArchrion wrote: Another thing is that 3 reapers is the magic number to 1 shot scv's. So 5 reapers is a confusing number to attack with. Any reason for 5? or was this just a good size to go with in case a couple die? Good luck with improving the build further.
Yeah I gotta agree with you, I think that if you reduce the amount of reapers produced to 3 instead of 5, with the earlier 100 gas you could get your ghosts earlier in order to defend against any banshee harass, since, as stated, 3 reapers allows you to kill an scv or a marine in 1 shot. Also, this could potentially make the initial push a bit faster, which sometimes makes a big difference, especially in the early game. My only doubt would be if the earlier ghost academy would make a conflict with the amount of minerals that you mine since a ghost is 200/100 while a marauder is a much cheaper unit, mineral wise, and gas wise. I would have to test it out tomorrow and see how it goes compared to a 5 reaper opening.
Have you tried getting Cloak and EMPing the Orbital? That seems like a good way for this build to do damage without having to commit fully to some sort of Marauder push which could go very poorly. Seeing as this build essentially starts as a 3 reaper rush, I think there can be better transitions much like SCDPride's build.
On September 05 2011 16:54 oOOoOphidian wrote: Have you tried getting Cloak and EMPing the Orbital? That seems like a good way for this build to do damage without having to commit fully to some sort of Marauder push which could go very poorly. Seeing as this build essentially starts as a 3 reaper rush, I think there can be better transitions much like SCDPride's build.
EMP orbital = no energy left to cloak, unless you plan on sacking a ghost to give another ghost a few seconds to derp around
On September 05 2011 11:51 GeisArchrion wrote: Thanks for sharing this Zoia. I like you have been fascinated by the ghost and i've been using them in TvT particularly for a number of months now. My ghost play has always been marine ghost really, which has been fantastic against openers like hellions, banshee, marine rush or just MMM. The build wasn't very successful against early tanks or even just a couple of bunkers however, and nukes didn't always solve the problem.
This build though packs much more of a punch with being marauder heavy, so tanks and bunkers are no longer a problem with the ghosts still working wonders against hellions banshees and marines. I think this build really suits the style i'm comfortable playing. I'm only plat but I can snipe pretty well, so the deciding factor is more to do with macro and being able to keep up production during all the micro.
I'll let you know of a couple of games I tried:
After some practise I played a Terran on the ladder and the build was pretty succesful. He reaper expanded, but luckily i was able to snipe the reaper with my own before he got into my base. He then got about 4 tanks and a bunker at his cliff but I was able to drop a nice nuke on the edge, and snipe all the marines he sent to try and take out the ghost. Cleaning the rest of his army was quite easy, I sniped all his scv's, however somehow I couldn't finish him right away, he had medivacs and was able to keep some of his units alive enough to drop my mineral lines frequently. I won in the end but I was certain I had won at about the 10 minute mark.
I then practised against a team mate who is in Diamond now. He commonly opens with banshee in TvT's, I probably could have used this bit of metagame to my advantage but I wanted to make sure by scouting. Unfortunately he spotted my reaper and was able to deny scouting to his base, meaning I missed the tech starport. Either way I expected he might go banshees so I had a ghost academy down in time. The issue was after building the extra 4 reapers I started building marauders. When I sent the next lot of reapers i saw his starport, but by then it was too late, since his banshee was already in my base killing workers and I had no ghosts out. By the time I had 2 ghosts I had probably lost a 3rd of my scv's, which left me behind the entire game. I think if I had the two ghosts before the banshee arrived I might have won quite confidently against the rest of his build.
I'm trying to fix the timing of the ghosts when it comes to banshees, since it takes so long for ghosts to come out.
I was wondering what your thinking was on the matter. If I see a starport should I build ghosts after reapers immediately? If so could this delay marauder production or the expansion longer than intended?
Another thing is that 3 reapers is the magic number to 1 shot scv's. So 5 reapers is a confusing number to attack with. Any reason for 5? or was this just a good size to go with in case a couple die?
Good luck with improving the build further.
Idk why I did 5 reapers just something I would do I'll try out just 3 and see how well it goes. If i see a quick banshee build I get the 2 ghost asap
I just played vs this build on ladder. I did 1 rax fe into 3 rax fast combat shield and crushed it. I'm sure that my opponent didn't play it perfectly and whatnot, but it didn't seem like there was a point where his reapers really had a chance to do damage to me and after that it was a pretty straightforward game.
Just used this on a few custom 1v1's and ladder games. So far out of 8 TvT's, I won 7 using this build with most games ending on the first push. Had a few end immediately after my 4-5 reapers destroyed 5-7 scv's and their counter attack was stopped with the marauders / ghosts I had macro built during the reaper attack. All opponents were diamond ~ master level.
The rank 5 master terran I did this on, reacted just as the OP stated, my opening reapers only killed 3-4 scvs / delayed his CC and tech lab on Factory. He immediately counter attacked with 4 marine 2 helion drop which my 2 marauders and 1 ghost I had built easily stopped. After which his banshee hit my base about 45-50sec later and I already had 3 ghosts by then. Then just build up to 8 marauders and 2 more ghosts and pushed his ramp. He had 1 bunker 6 marines 2 helions and 2 banshees at the front. Just like the OP stated, I sniped the repairing scvs and marines while stimmed marauders destroyed the bunker and helions and 5 ghosts > 2 banshee's thus leading to the GG.
The only game I lost so far was against a diamond terran who opened with Pride's 3 reaper rush and got to my base with 3 reapers vs my 2 and he scouted my ghost acadamy and immediately went 2 port banshee. His banshee numbers got too high and forced me to GG
I would say overall this build is very solid against most T openings and its very fun to play since its not the norm. Anyways thanks OP for this fun build
On September 05 2011 20:50 eieio wrote: I just played vs this build on ladder. I did 1 rax fe into 3 rax fast combat shield and crushed it. I'm sure that my opponent didn't play it perfectly and whatnot, but it didn't seem like there was a point where his reapers really had a chance to do damage to me and after that it was a pretty straightforward game.
Ah yeah, the combat shield + medivacs would be strong against any sniping so I can see how you were able to win that one. From looking at it I think he missed his chance to bust in with a push and snipe before any medivacs were out, also he didn't get a chance to harrass the worker line so your economy got quite a bit ahead as well.
Combat shield is something to watch out for I guess, unless the reapers can snipe the tech lab perhaps.
After watching this build its pretty sick! Really impressive, vs Iechoic i see that massing ghost would be a problem, Although since your get a factory straight after expand and if scout the 2 port react hellion rush 2 thor and that just counters it hard, if you read the echoic posts he even says that thor just all out counter to this until BC'S come out ( just push and win before they come as there build time is ridiculously long)
EDIT- Any long macro game replays please? Would be good to see how you transition if the push fails!
Zoia, I think alot of people just don't understand how effective this build is, because they don't look at it from both sides. Most people when they scout your base with the scv, they will assume oh reaper FE (because thats the norm if you see a tech lab on the rax immidiately after 1 marine). Now if I was the person that scouted the Techlab, I would go ok time to punish his FE by either helion drop or banshees. Normally I wouldn't go OH TANK RUSH ! or 3 Rax combat shield push ! because normally a 1 Rax FE reaper would have a bunker at his ramp and usually a factory (to get tanks/helions) right after the CC is put down. And your build directly counters the normal reaction to a 1rax techlab.
Most people don't want to deviate from the norm, and probably don't want a build that counters the norm to become popular, thus all the negative criticism.
The majority of the diamond / master lvl players I did this on, reacted just like you stated in your post, usually going for some type of helion / banshee harass into Expand.
Also the reapers don't even have to be that effective to win the game, you can kill only a few scvs with your reapers, and it will provoke an immediate response / counter attack with helion/marine drop or banshee, and then you get to make them go surprise face when they see you have ghosts and marauders.
Your build is very effective, the negative critics just can't think outside the box
This build looks cool, I'll definitely give it a go! :D I like more unorthodox builds, I had great fun with the iEchoic hellion/banshee build for a while, this looks like it'll be a lot of fun too! I tend to suck at using most standard TvT builds for some reason, and I really don't enjoy doing them, gets pretty boring..It makes me really hate the matchup sometimes
Youll need to fast forward to the second match since its a 1v1 obs game.
@eieio That may have been the build but it was executed rather poorly. At the 9 minute mark he has 3 Marauders and 3 ghosts. Usually I will have 3 ghosts and 6 marauders at that point and Im only gold. Basically this is the army composition:
Youll need to fast forward to the second match since its a 1v1 obs game.
@eieio That may have been the build but it was executed rather poorly. At the 9 minute mark he has 3 Marauders and 3 ghosts. Usually I will have 3 ghosts and 6 marauders at that point and Im only gold. Basically this is the army composition:
Also under counters to this build is turtle siege tank, anyone tried snipping the tech-labs on the factory when u go in with the 4 reapers? 2 shot it and the tanks delayed quite a bit ! making your push basically easy win?
On September 06 2011 02:47 VirusSonG wrote: Surprise when i saw a player doing that against me, in fact, i made this BO. Nothing to add.
NO WAI I DID IT FURST!
I like the logical response about your opponents reaction while scouting. Makes a lot of sense. Course, the jig is up if they Reaper Expand and you don't catch it with your own SCV for some reason, otherwise its too late.
Awesome build, I've been looking for a way to move away from siege tanks. Do you have any replays of you losing to the iechoic style?
Also, keep in mind that if you do find a way to deal with the high amount of banshees while keeping the core of ghost marauder, the eventual transition for the build it to tech to battle cruisers. Making ghosts basically useless against air.
On September 06 2011 03:59 Zoia wrote: thanks for all the input and support guys!
Hi Zoia, i've been practising this build a lot and even though i lost 4-5 times at first, i've ironed out some kinks and started winning with it. have won 3 times so far.
Played a ladder game earlier where I won with this strat and my opponent was streaming so you can see how it went if you're interested :D
On September 06 2011 10:44 E.H Eager wrote: Awesome build, I've been looking for a way to move away from siege tanks. Do you have any replays of you losing to the iechoic style?
Also, keep in mind that if you do find a way to deal with the high amount of banshees while keeping the core of ghost marauder, the eventual transition for the build it to tech to battle cruisers. Making ghosts basically useless against air.
I reckon after a factory you could reactor out medivacs and vikings. I dunno how efficient this is cost wise but I think that's what you'd want to aim for against mass banshee and BC's if need be.
I've been having some fun with this the past couple days. I usually go iEchoic-style, which (at least for me) is much more micro-intensive. And unsettling in the beginning of the game, when you're not sure what your opponent is doing and pretty open to early pressure.
One reason I like this is that it essentially forces you to scout not once, but twice after your initial scouting scv flees/dies and before the 7-minute mark.
As for mid-late-game transitions, I've been having the most luck going marauder-tank, with a few ghosts mixed in. I'll try hellions as you suggest at some point, but my concern is that I'm already starting off behind in the tank count, and don't really want to be using factory time for something other than tanks.
Also, while it hasn't happened yet, I figure it's only a matter of time before someone gets (relatively) early cattlebruisers and rolls me.
On September 05 2011 23:48 nay wrote: Zoia, I think alot of people just don't understand how effective this build is, because they don't look at it from both sides. Most people when they scout your base with the scv, they will assume oh reaper FE (because thats the norm if you see a tech lab on the rax immidiately after 1 marine). Now if I was the person that scouted the Techlab, I would go ok time to punish his FE by either helion drop or banshees. Normally I wouldn't go OH TANK RUSH ! or 3 Rax combat shield push ! because normally a 1 Rax FE reaper would have a bunker at his ramp and usually a factory (to get tanks/helions) right after the CC is put down. And your build directly counters the normal reaction to a 1rax techlab.
Most people don't want to deviate from the norm, and probably don't want a build that counters the norm to become popular, thus all the negative criticism.
The majority of the diamond / master lvl players I did this on, reacted just like you stated in your post, usually going for some type of helion / banshee harass into Expand.
Also the reapers don't even have to be that effective to win the game, you can kill only a few scvs with your reapers, and it will provoke an immediate response / counter attack with helion/marine drop or banshee, and then you get to make them go surprise face when they see you have ghosts and marauders.
Your build is very effective, the negative critics just can't think outside the box
I think that is very unfair, instead of saying "all the negative critics can't think outside the box", how about you address our points that have been stated. This build is very weak to a turtle Terran who has a good number of tanks and multiple bunkers, because your tech to that point in the game is much behind his tech in the midgame, and even with a fast second factory you are going to be behind on tanks.
On September 05 2011 23:47 jakek95 wrote: After watching this build its pretty sick! Really impressive, vs Iechoic i see that massing ghost would be a problem, Although since your get a factory straight after expand and if scout the 2 port react hellion rush 2 thor and that just counters it hard, if you read the echoic posts he even says that thor just all out counter to this until BC'S come out ( just push and win before they come as there build time is ridiculously long)
Unless the opponent is Thor rushing, the iEchoic Sky Terran style is more than capable of dealing with thors, because you can easily tech to BCs off of 2 base, and constant hellion harass allows you to get good scouting info which allows you to react to the Thors easily. Since the Thors off of this build will be at the very earliest around 13 minutes, seeing as you expo at 10 minutes, factories take 1 to build, armories take around a minute to build, and Thors take a minute to build, it would be quite simple to have a healthy number of BCs out in time to defend any Thor push coming off of this build.
On September 07 2011 22:58 jimbob615 wrote: often i find this build results in a situation where my opponent has a bunker, wall off and a couple of siege tanks in his base.
is it best to just contain in this situation or go for a bust with the marauders?
or get nuke asap??
Depends how tough his defenses look. If there's say more than 2 tanks spread out, try and get a nuke and force an unsiege (or if they're not paying attention, destroy their tanks and bunkers out right) You don't need cloak, just nuke out of tank range. You can always try and soft contain until you've built one, i've found the nuke is the diversion you need to stim in and kill the tanks. Perhaps if you scout the number of tanks he has with reapers you can build a factory a bit earlier and try and time your push for one the nuke is nearly done (also you'll want scan energy).
this build sounds like I only will build tons of hellions and a few tanks x3. And tech up to bcs :x Still sounds like alot of fun to play around with, even though marines aren't the best targets to use snipe on. And if the opponent uses emps. I guess thats one of those builds that if both sides play it, it will end up in marine medivac only xD.
~1000 masters terran here. I tried this out in a few games expecting it to feel gimmicky rather than a solid opener.
In short, yes and no.
It plays out like a very solid all-in in most cases. Sometimes, the opening reapers just kill enough SCVs that you can transition into whatever you want from there (SCDPride style), and sometimes the initial marauder/ghost pressure will just kill the opponent outright, especially in the current hellion metagame.
When it doesn't work properly though (most notably, when the oppoent has gone for a solid 1/1/1 into expand with a fast combat shield after scouting ghosts), that's when it becomes "micro-intensive", as you pretty much have to camp outside their base and force them to siege and unsiege over and over until you have enough standard army at home to defend the push. Kinda like every other all-in TvT build.
In short, I give it a little more credit than I expected to. I'll keep it in my back pocket as an all-in opener against someone I know loves hellion openers, but it's not my cup of tea for the long macro style of TvT I like to play.
It was fun to mess around with though. Kudos on finding a style that uses ghosts for more than just banshee defense, I'll try out any strat that gets me nuking by 10mins.
I think this should be a reaper opening into a bio based TvT style with ghosts/Nukes to make tanks unsiege because marauders rape unsieged tanks. It would be funny if someone BC rushed to counter this build :D
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
"How often". So your build is gimmicky? It relies on the opponent not doing xx?
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
"How often". So your build is gimmicky? It relies on the opponent not doing xx?
Every build realies on the opponent "not doing xx"! In PvT you can't even scout the Gas sometimes, of course you have to gamble then, doesn't mean that your 3 Gate Expand becomes gimmicky only because it loses against 1/1/1..
On September 07 2011 21:49 Zoia wrote: Sorry but iEchoic loses to thor rush
It is very possible to hold, but your build is hardly a Thor rush, and Thors coming off of your build are going to be very late and easy to hold using the iEchoic Sky Terran style. As outlined in his thread, the best solution is to use all your scvs and units to take down the Thor, since the repairing SCVs on the Thor have the same priority, they will help take down SCVs and they and the rest of your units can take down the Thor.
At the same time you use your early medivac and some BFH to kill his economy, since he will have nothing at home to defend, forcing an eco trade for both sides, with an edge to the iEchoic player as his eco will be less battered by the Thor than the Thor player's eco will be by BFH.
Ah I see one of your replays is a game vs Sadistx. After he got rolled by this build he ran it by me 4 or 5 days ago. I haven't really drilled it enough to have a full understanding of the build, but I have experimented a little and have not really liked it much.
When I get home I can include my replays, (perhaps I wasn't executing the build correctly) but I attempted it about 5 times on ladder TvT (I'm top 50 grandmaster terran on NA) and won only against a blueflame drop opening. The build very quickly felt like a hard metagame type build designed to autowin against a couple other openings, but not really ideal for a midgame setup. I just was not liking the setup or position it puts you in after early game. Or the expand timing.
When the other guy was not going blueflame I found myself losing to a midgame timing because my expo was too late, or their tank/marine or tank/bfh midgame army shits on this ghost/marauder composition.
I played against Select a couple days ago and tried it, but I didn't really handle cloak banshee correctly at all. Probably shouldn't be pushing vs cloak banshee threat, but I was finding if you don't push with this build before 9-10 minute mark you get behind. I also tried it on Saturday in the tlopen but autolost to 2port cloak banshee. Perhaps I didn't handle that correctly either but it felt like you give up all map control and expand so late just to fend off banshees.
Since the Saturday game when I tried the build and lost for the first time to a crappy terran I swore to never do this build again haha. :p
I will provide replay examples in a couple hours when I get home, maybe I was just doing things wrong!
I'm low masters atm but have been higher and I think that this build will suffer greatly against a gas first banshee opening. The first reaper scout can be denied if they guess your hop up spot right with 2 marines and even if you see this fast banshee opening and throw up the ghost academy right away, you will lose if you don't start pumping mass marines immediately, which delays the ghosts, which delays everything else. Gas first banshee hard counters this I would say.
I like the idea behind the build but I have to add my voice to the - build is a good counter to the current hellion metagame side.
On September 07 2011 21:49 Zoia wrote: Sorry but iEchoic loses to thor rush
It is very possible to hold, but your build is hardly a Thor rush, and Thors coming off of your build are going to be very late and easy to hold using the iEchoic Sky Terran style. As outlined in his thread, the best solution is to use all your scvs and units to take down the Thor, since the repairing SCVs on the Thor have the same priority, they will help take down SCVs and they and the rest of your units can take down the Thor.
I've been struggling to find Terran opponents lately on the ladder or in customs but I've just had two in a row and I won both of them quite comfortably. Against someone doing a hellion drop reapers are soooo good against them, a few shots can destroy them completely. If the medivac is already on its way then the reapers have free reign of the mineral line and my marauders can clean up the drop.
8 or so marauders 2 shot tanks or something and i've found they can be pretty resilient despite the absense of a medivac. With one push I stimmed about 3 times to take out tanks while under fire and I still had about 4 left in his base.
So far i've only lost when:
-I didn't make ghosts quick enough for banshees. -I make silly mistakes like forgetting to learn stim or trapping my marauders in a choke. -The push does damage but doesn't outright kill him and I lose later on (i've not had much practise with transitioning back to tank/viking)
On September 07 2011 21:49 Zoia wrote: Sorry but iEchoic loses to thor rush
It is very possible to hold, but your build is hardly a Thor rush, and Thors coming off of your build are going to be very late and easy to hold using the iEchoic Sky Terran style. As outlined in his thread, the best solution is to use all your scvs and units to take down the Thor, since the repairing SCVs on the Thor have the same priority, they will help take down SCVs and they and the rest of your units can take down the Thor.
Okay my build vs Iechoic against a thor rush
Iechoic - Thors > banshees Thors > hellions
My build - Ghost > repairing SCVs Maruader > thor
What exactly is your point? Your build hardcounters a rarely used TvT build, and the iEchoic style is quite capable of holding a Thor rush. Also, if we are comparing styles, the iEchoic is much more suited for the midgame, as it easily transitions to a really strong lategame style and gets a lot of really useful tech which allows you to play a macro game quite easily.
Your build is a very allin 1 base bio build that has a strong first attack, but good players are going to hold your attack and at that point you are in trouble as your tech is very lacking as is your economy as you don't expand till 10 minutes.
I agree that this build looks like a strong counter to the hellion centric meta-game. I've only just gotten the hang of Meching at my level. The prevalence of early bio in the early game really hurt the advantage of map control that the BFH's give you. The inclusion of reapers to take the fight to the BFHing player is a stroke of genius.
I would however like to prepose a soft counter. The build which i'm atm (which I stole off the Slayers_Boxer) has a really nice 3 raven/marine/BFH which hits with 4-5 PDD's after your opponents expo goes down with the goal of forcing the abandonment of the natural. That many PDD's, I believe would give me the army advantage and force you to micro your ghosts to emp my ravens. (If you can multitask like Boxer you can also drop some BFH's in the main to increase your economic lead.)
I know 3 ravens seems llike a large investment at this stage of the game (especially with with the subtle anti-Raven sentiment going around on the forums) but where else are you going to invest your early gas? Tanks get eaten alive by marauders and banshees don't seem to be heavy enough hitters to slay the marauder centric composition you prepose (Ghosts also work well against banshees)
On September 07 2011 21:49 Zoia wrote: Sorry but iEchoic loses to thor rush
It is very possible to hold, but your build is hardly a Thor rush, and Thors coming off of your build are going to be very late and easy to hold using the iEchoic Sky Terran style. As outlined in his thread, the best solution is to use all your scvs and units to take down the Thor, since the repairing SCVs on the Thor have the same priority, they will help take down SCVs and they and the rest of your units can take down the Thor.
Okay my build vs Iechoic against a thor rush
Iechoic - Thors > banshees Thors > hellions
My build - Ghost > repairing SCVs Maruader > thor
What exactly is your point? Your build hardcounters a rarely used TvT build, and the iEchoic style is quite capable of holding a Thor rush. Also, if we are comparing styles, the iEchoic is much more suited for the midgame, as it easily transitions to a really strong lategame style and gets a lot of really useful tech which allows you to play a macro game quite easily.
Your build is a very allin 1 base bio build that has a strong first attack, but good players are going to hold your attack and at that point you are in trouble as your tech is very lacking as is your economy as you don't expand till 10 minutes.
Some guy said Iechoic was good vs thor rush and mine wasn't I was pointing out that he was wrong
I find by transitioning into nuke by going: 3rd ghost in prod, Build fact 4th ghost begins just as factory is up and begin nuke while moving out
I am able to reach their base with at most 2 depots & bunker backed by two siege tanks. By nuking in a position where the marines must move around the ramp, I buy enough time to either force unseige which is cleaned up by stimming in and target firing the tanks & sniping the marines OR the nuke lands, wiping the units out with rage quit.
I tried your build several time and it work great. I'm only a gold terran player but i beat diamand players and destroy a master at the first push and then lose in macro game. But cos i'm bad, you know.
With more practice in the transition, it will be imba in my league ^^
On September 09 2011 02:14 Darkkak wrote: I tried your build several time and it work great. I'm only a gold terran player but i beat diamand players and destroy a master at the first push and then lose in macro game. But cos i'm bad, you know.
With more practice in the transition, it will be imba in my league ^^
So thanks for your guide.
I'm glad you've enjoyed it! I've received lots of positive feedback on this build so I'm going to try and create more creative builds for you guys on TL!
I really enjoy this build because, above all, it's fun. However I consistently lose to the same thing... I do damage with the opening and the follow up and I'm ahead. Then he hits with a couple of tanks and medivacs and a sh*t load of marines as basically an all-in and I can't hold.
Anyway I'm only a gold level player - would love to improve + appreciate my macro/micro aren't a patch on yours but if you (or any other kind soul) could have a look at this and give me some pointers I'd appreciate it.
When using this particular build (I'm about 500-ish master), more and more lately it's been losing its hold to 3rax bio pushes, which normally wouldn't be an issue except that they can produce so many more units since you're tied up in ghosts.
However, I've even gone against foes who will go for the fast hellions/banshee and even after mopping them up by the time I'm ready to push they still have tanks and endless marines, and I start to feel like this build has really just lost viability as since the bfh nerf Terrans are less inclined to just mass up hellions and dump their gas into banshees. I'll try to get some replays up but I feel like I pretty much just get guaranteed to be all-inned as soon as my push fails even after I take out all of his harass, even if my reapers manage to take out 3+ workers.
Would this opening be viable against protoss ? I think Emp would be good against all gateway unit and if he's heavy on zealot snipe would be great... Marauder would take care of stalkers.
I was curious about how this matched up specifically against a gas-first banshee opener, and here is what I found.
In the replays you showed, you could cut Reapers at about 3 produced and instantly begin building ghosts, getting you some ghosts around the 6:30 mark. You CAN scout the gas first easily with your initial reaper scout, so if you keep that alive you can ascertain if you're dealing with gas first banshee or something else. A gas first banshee timing will get the banshee out (at his base) at around 6:10, maybe a couple seconds earlier, and if you add in flight time the banshee will reach your base at some point between 6:25 and 6:50 depending on map and positions.
I like this build order because of the flexibility that your building choice and scouting gives you. You can transition into other builds from your early game building composition (scoutable) and once you've committed to ghosts you still have choice in what comes out of your barracks, greatly varying your options.
Good job, but you had better fully refine this build order and its transitions before someone else does and claims it from you.
Hi, without having read most of the posts etc. I'm already very excited about this style. But I wondered about the following:
On September 04 2011 15:19 Zoia wrote: What it is weak against IEchoic 2fact2port
If I remember correctly there was a post about a Reaper Rush that is able to beat iEchoic/early Banshees and I have tried that myself. iEchoic style has a lot of difficulties with early and consistent reaper pressure since Hellions die to Reapers 1v1 and iEchoic doesn't focus on many Hellions early but, stronger Hellions somewhat later. Although you probably need to get turrets to defend vs the Banshee(s), you can kill their Hellions and harass them, thus pinning them down. So the advice vs iEchoic "put turrets up and expand" is reasonable, but I wouldn't say it's broken, you just need to try to send the reapers earlier and pressure a lot.
Sorry for just suggesting this without considering what it does to your opener, but I think from the Reaper pressure the transition to this 3 Rax Ghost/Marauder style should be straight forward.
On September 26 2011 21:43 Nathanias wrote: When using this particular build (I'm about 500-ish master), more and more lately it's been losing its hold to 3rax bio pushes, which normally wouldn't be an issue except that they can produce so many more units since you're tied up in ghosts.
[...] by the time I'm ready to push they still have tanks and endless marines [...]
Wouldn't earlier and less Reapers like in the thread I provided together with a bunker postpone/neutralise the bio threat? Besides, bio is just one of the builds you might be up against, so you might create a viable hold while being strong against the others, no?
What's the time you're ready to push? He should either have less Marines/defense early or less Tanks or something later, if it is plain Marine/Tank.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
Because marines counter hellions? They shouldn't, but they do. Stimmed marines melt hellions much casters than bfh do marines. Pure marine is actually really common now in Tvt, adding tanks when taking third.
vs iechoic style, could you not try put down 2 reactor ports and get air superiority? pure vikings, although i guess this would cut into your ghost count. then again, ghosts wouldnt be as important since you cant snipe hellions. so maybe transition straight into marauder viking?
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
On November 06 2011 15:51 ZiegFeld wrote: "I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
By GM you meant "Grannies Master" dint ya ? You obviously didnt even try this thing and you are just throwing shit at it.
On November 06 2011 15:51 ZiegFeld wrote: "I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
By GM you meant "Grannies Master" dint ya ? You obviously didnt even try this thing and you are just throwing shit at it.
Nope, it is what it is. Gimmicky with no real potential like the iEchoic build.
If you use the ghosts hold fire option, so you can do the shift+snipe spam on their units just press shift+hold fire after queing up snipes. That way the ghosts will attack as normal when they are done sniping. Another thing to note is that you can use snipe on your own units as well so watch your trigger finger soldier! I'm having so much fun with this build, thank you Zoia
I'm going to have to try this. Seems interesting to say the least, and could be improved as you mentioned in the video.
I suppose you could press F, shift click R, then re-press F upon conclusion of snipe energy. I really like the idea of the nuke as a way to hold their ramp.
For example, if you positioned the ghost in the natural behind the mineral line, scanned and placed a nuke in his mineral line, while positioning your marauders at the bottom of the ramp-- s/he would be hard-pressed to kill the ghost and would lose ALL of the depots (depots are destroyed in a single nuke, no?) behind his/her mineral line.
And the cost of lost mining time, distracting your opponent seems to make the 100/100 and 270 minerals from scan worth it.
I think you should expand at your natural since you had a billion scvs in your main and then during the intense snipe and stim micro, you could just send a pack of scvs to your natural while putting down a bunch more rax.
It appears to me that the best way to follow through may not be double expand, but expand once and saturate it, while containing your opponent and then just beating him/her down with mass rax units with medivacs.
Since you're so far ahead, just simplify the position. If you can trade units with opponent, although these trades may not be at perfectly even rates, I think you;re still away ahead.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/6a/Reaper.png/197px-Reaper.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/ab/Ghost.png/163px-Ghost.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f2/Marauder.png/190px-Marauder.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229843.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229846.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229850.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229852.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229857.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229859.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229860.jpg)
)! Im gonna try it! Good job!
You obviously didnt even try this thing and you are just throwing shit at it. 
