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On September 04 2011 17:57 Zoia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote:
I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin. Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself.
If the Terran player is able to scout your tech lab, or maybe not since some Terrans myself included, like to put marines and other units on the cliffs of their main meaning the reaper harass will be much less effective. Also, if they see the mass reaper, its a dead giveaway that you are doing this build, which means they can
A) use the vikings to tank damage
B) Stop making air units in favor of faster factories
Also, your opponents in the video you posted had suboptimal siege positioning and control, meaning their tanks were very vulnerable to being picked off and their marines got sniped fairly easily. I feel like 3 or 4 tanks and a couple bunkers would stop your push cold, which is a fairly reasonable thing to get if you see a early bio allin.
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On September 04 2011 18:02 Shootemup. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 17:57 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote:
I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin. Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself. If the Terran player is able to scout your tech lab, or maybe not since some Terrans myself included, like to put marines and other units on the cliffs of their main, meaning the reaper harass will be much less effective. Also, if they see the mass reaper, its a dead giveaway that you are doing this build, which means they can A) use the vikings to tank damage B) Stop making air units in favor of faster factories Also, your opponents in the video you posted had suboptimal siege positioning and control, meaning their tanks were very vulnerable to being picked off and their marines got sniped fairly easily. I feel like 3 or 4 tanks and a couple bunkers would stop your push cold, which is a fairly reasonable thing to get if you see a early bio allin.
All very good points but let me make counter points.
Do you know how many times my mass reaper has been scouted? 0 they are easy to hide you don't even need to have them in your base. Reapers are also like mutas. There is always a hole in the terrans base that you can slip in and do some damage. I don't care if you think you are the most amazing player and have the best positioning there is always a spot I can slip my reapers in.
Okay so they do have 3-4 tanks and a couple bunkers but where at? Their expo? If they have that many units when my push comes there is no way they could have an expansion. Keep in mind how early this push comes. If they are just stationing themselves outside their base so they can expand quickly that gives me more room to micro my units taking less damage from the splash of the tanks. With 2 bunkers 3-4 tanks and a lot of marines(which they will need if they are planning on holding this) I could just expand myself and we are both just as allin
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On September 04 2011 17:47 Zoia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 17:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:19 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote:
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses. How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing. I'll dig up some of the replays and add them he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt. it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure. Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game. You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post.
honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time).
eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
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On September 04 2011 18:09 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 17:47 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 17:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:19 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote:
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses. How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing. I'll dig up some of the replays and add them he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt. it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure. Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game. You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it. that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post. honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time). eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really?
This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though
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On September 04 2011 18:13 Zoia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 18:09 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:47 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 17:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:19 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote:
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses. How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing. I'll dig up some of the replays and add them he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt. it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure. Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game. You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it. that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post. honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time). eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really? This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though
Why make unfounded assumptions and snide jabs about 'my' play style when you actually no nothing about me? No I don't marine/tank every game. In fact I hardly anymore. My concern is precisely that people who marine/tank every game can hold off a build like this without having to do anything special (minor tweaks in their build). Anyways I'm done here. I'll probably try this build on customs a little bit to see how well it works.
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On September 04 2011 18:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 18:13 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 18:09 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:47 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 17:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:19 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote:
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses. How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing. I'll dig up some of the replays and add them he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt. it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure. Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game. You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it. that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post. honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time). eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really? This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though Why make unfounded assumptions and snide jabs about 'my' play style when you actually no nothing about me? No I don't marine/tank every game. In fact I hardly anymore. My concern is precisely that people who marine/tank every game can hold off a build like this without having to do anything special (minor tweaks in their build). Anyways I'm done here. I'll probably try this build on customs a little bit to see how well it works.
The point I was tryin to make was very few people open standard marine tank any more. From my experience with this build standard marine tank is the easiest to deal with. Anyways best of luck let me know what you think of the build once you've tried it.
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On September 04 2011 18:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 18:13 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 18:09 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:47 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 17:29 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 04 2011 17:19 Zoia wrote:On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote:
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses. How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing. I'll dig up some of the replays and add them he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt. it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure. Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game. You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it. that first part was referring to what the other guy said. I know you talked about transitioning to standard helion/tank mid-late game, i mentioned it in my post. honestly i'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this build. I think bunkered marines to nullify snipe + tanks/marauders can handle the early pressure quite well. it's hard to tell when you seriously outplayed your opponent every game (i didn't look at the last 2 replays yet that were not in the video but you were up ~20 supply before engagement almost every time). eg: I know the first guy you played is supposed to be GM but he played absolutely horrible. I mean he had 2 orbitals, 1 starport, 1 floating factory, 2 half-constructed factories that he didn't cancel for 2 minutes, 4 barracks, 1 empty bunker on 1 mining base when you attacked. Really? This is starcraft 2 buddy. People cut corners to get ahead if you think that every player should play a standard marine tank turtle play every game then you are just boring as hell. Even with the standard marine tank play people are still able to harass you and take a lead even if you are playing this turtle style. This isn't an easy build to scout. Good structure placement makes it hard to scan and now days most terrans don't scan until after the 6-7 minute mark. If you aren't convinced by this build then don't use it. This is just a new style that I'm wanting to show other terrans who hate playing your standard safe marine tank. I've done quite well against standard marine tank I've tried explaining several times why it does well but if you don't want to try this build then don't. Thank you for your input though Why make unfounded assumptions and snide jabs about 'my' play style when you actually no nothing about me? No I don't marine/tank every game. In fact I hardly anymore. My concern is precisely that people who marine/tank every game can hold off a build like this without having to do anything special (minor tweaks in their build). Anyways I'm done here. I'll probably try this build on customs a little bit to see how well it works.
I think the "your standard safe marine tank" is a phrase and not intended to mean you specifically, Joe.
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0.0 I read the title and didn't expect anything near this solid... How on earth do you come up with something like this?
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On September 04 2011 18:59 Soluhwin wrote:
0.0 I read the title and didn't expect anything near this solid... How on earth do you come up with something like this?
Give you just a little back story on me. I've been playing this game since the beta and been using ghost since then. I was pretty much inspired by TLO right from the get go and since then in every matchup I've tried to do crazy things that no one else was doing. Transferred all that knowledge into this build.
edit: also this isn't every solid there are still several things that still need to be worked on/improved. That is why I'm bringing it to the community to see what everyone else can get out of it
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When he says it is weak to Tanks, he really means it. Reaper openers and ghost openers are typically vulnerable to tanks and can't do any damage against builds that open with tank. I cast a game recently in which a GM did this build and got crushed handily by marine/tank, it wasn't even close. NrGLuckyFool was the player who did the build and abSxMaSa was the opponent, both of them are GM.
I think there is no advantage to doing this build instead of just the SCDPride 3 reaper rush. I love ghosts, but there are better ways to use them. A gas first banshee opener will both defend the reapers and counter attack very well, which is one problem that Pride's build had and you simply won't have ghosts in time to defend if you made reapers first.
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after defending the first cloaked banshee, do i just attack? or do i defend the 2nd one as well? cuz just now i tried going right after the first one and my opponent just sent a 2nd banshee and i didnt know what to stop it with :/
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Lol its not an micro intensive build...
Looks kinda good though... im gonna try it
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ive done this before, but mine was a lot quicker, going with 5 marauders, 2 ghost, no reapers. ill give this a try though, seems solid and my kinda playstyle
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nice! i like how this can deal with so many different builds. gonna try this next time, hoping my opponent wont FE/mass bunker!
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thanks for posting this, i will try it out on ladder. I like this build very much, because as you showed its good against most tvt openings but the best part about it is that you main army comp is made out of a barracks with a tech lab. So all you have to do is make barracks with tech lab and you can adjust your army comp accordingly. Instead with like a reaper expand, you make a reaper and then go marine tank or something, like you harass with one reaper then your done, with this build you can be like, SURPRISE! 5 reapers in your mineral line in the midgame...
1500 masters season 2
EDIT: I have a question. For theorycraftings sake, you tried this opening vs a tutling terran who went mech and you could not break him early game. Now he pushes out very very very cautiously, leaves some siege tanks in his mineral lines, puts a ring of turrets around his base, and takes every expo on the map and takes control of xel naga watch towers. How do you stop like hard turtle slow mech?
One way I thought of was to try to catch him out of position, but for again theorycraftings sake, hes too good to be caught out of position. Also a lot of drop play, on his tanks and in his base might be good.
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My second game of the day and already had someone do this against me on (Master League) ladder. I guess people are gagging for a way off the Hellion/Banshee openings that mech has all but enforced.
Seemed solid enough and delayed my expansion for a while until I got enough tanks to slow put out, but he never did the nuke and rush on my ramp (which may have won him the game), instead opting for a double expand. Without the nuke it seems a rather pointless opening against mech, since the Ghosts can't snipe anything and just end up as glorified Marines. Once you scout a Hellion opening it seems it'd be good just to get one or two for nukes (if you're doing that) and switch into whatever else it is you are going for.
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Thanks for all the input guys from reddit and here!
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I've got to say... I love this build you made, I understand it is not completely refined and that it could be improved, which makes it so much better. Just used it and won easily with the first push. Kudos to you sir.
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People seem to be doubting the effectiveness of nukes so when I get home I'll add a section in the main post talking about nukes
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EPT
