On August 22 2011 07:49 Existor wrote: And I dont understand camera locking. Unneded, IMO, more hotkeys, that can waste your APM. Is it that hard to move cross the map using scroll-wheel holding? Or finally use clicks on the minimap? Im from C&C and here was always scroll-wheel or right-click holding camera moving.
Camera locking is very very critical for me (and it improved my game by a lot when I first started using it).
Minimap clicking is slower by quite a bit. Take the time to move your mouse and click just the right place on the minimap, then adding it to your natural attention delay, it just adds up and it's clumsy on top. Why use a mouse precision task when you don't absolutely need to? Keyboard is far more efficient when you memorize the control scheme.
Any kind of scrolling that isn't just an inch or so of the screen (like from main to natural on some maps, or a very nearby battle) is a complete waste of time imo.
Several minor enhancements (mainly to protoss, with small tweaks to Zerg and Terran) have been integrated. First mnemonics section added to the OP. Layout diagrams updated to have consistent labeling and reflect the new changes. Yay!
Would a mod kindly change the title to "[G] Optimus Advanced Keyboard Layout" to reflect the new content ^_^
In this layout Burrow has separate hotkeys. This is helpful to prevent mis-control. Burrow is C and Unburrow is Z (may help to remember them as a Zerg Cloak, C for Cloak and "end cloak", Z, like the end of the alphabet).
Hatcheries belong on the Production hotkey, since it is Zerg production. Queen belong on the CC/Nexus hotkey. This has to do with the reaches from the control group to the hotkeys being smoother in this layout, and frequency of use.
Wait, what? It is good for lefties? I fear it would give too much work to your pinkie and ring, causing fatigue. I guess setting control groups would be super easy, though.
This is cool. I'm going to try to incorporate it, but I'd prefer to move a few things around. Do you happen to have a source or could you upload a blank template so I could fill in my own binds?
Here are some of my proposed changes, I'm curious to know what you think:
1) Put hold position on S, and get rid of stop completely 2) Make W a control group: I prefer to put my Queens on W. It works really well for shift-spacebar injecting when inject is bound to E (as you have it). 3) Maybe switching F and R since a finger is always on R. 4) Putting some control groups on 123 to bind individual hatcheries and/or queens. I prefer this to camera hotkeys because then you can set individual rerallies if needed and use them to move queens around quickly for voidray/banshee harass, etc..
Overall a great layout I think and if I'm able to make the switch after so long I think my game will be improved for it. If you have the blank keyboard image template (couldn't find anything quite as nice with a quick google) please upload! I'd love to fill one out with my changes and keep it on the second monitor as I'm learning).
Those are some interesting ideas. You can edit the original image file with a vector editing program, such as Ink Scape (free, the one I use, quite good). I will upload the image file later, maybe remind me, it's really late here I might forget.
1) I use hold a lot for muta harass (stop would allow them to engange the chasing marines, instead of targeting the workers below). If you never use it, perhaps it is better to replace it with a control grou. 2) I have my queens on my mouse, but for keyboard only layouts not using hold-possition, it could be superior. 3) If you're finger is resting on R you're not using the layout as designed. It was designed with the user placing the blade of his palm near Ctrl, turned slightly inward (10-30degrees), with fingers resting on QWEF as indicated in the diagram. If you don't use this, reaching C, V, and B are much more difficult, thus reducing the effectiveness of the design. 4) All 10 hotkeys are already used, in order to move control groups on to 1 and 2 (3 is already a control group) you would have to remove them from V, T, or 5. V, T, and 5 are easier to reach than 1 and 2 with the tilted hand position described, and assigned the greater task of control group selection and camera focusing (doubletapping the control group) on the stronger fingers. You could use C, V, R, T, 3, and 5 for hatchery hotkeys if you only want 3 for army (though R and V really are excellent for harass units, due to the ease of toggling between them).
Basically, over all, if you're hand is not place on the keyboard as the layout requires, your adjustments do improve upon the design. But, if you're using the correct positioning, the harder tasks are assigned to stronger fingers, unlike having 1 and 2 as control groups. If you never use Hold possition, and never plan to, using W or S as a control group would be better. I suggest moving 5 there, as it is the hardest to reach when using the correct hand angle.
Good thoughts, man, thanks for posting a thoughtful reply! <3
On August 29 2011 17:57 FoxyMayhem wrote: Those are some interesting ideas. You can edit the original image file with a vector editing program, such as Ink Scape (free, the one I use, quite good). I will upload the image file later, maybe remind me, it's really late here I might forget.
1) I use hold a lot for muta harass (stop would allow them to engange the chasing marines, instead of targeting the workers below). If you never use it, perhaps it is better to replace it with a control grou. 2) I have my queens on my mouse, but for keyboard only layouts not using hold-possition, it could be superior. 3) If you're finger is resting on R you're not using the layout as designed. It was designed with the user placing the blade of his palm near Ctrl, turned slightly inward (10-30degrees), with fingers resting on QWEF as indicated in the diagram. If you don't use this, reaching C, V, and B are much more difficult, thus reducing the effectiveness of the design. 4) All 10 hotkeys are already used, in order to move control groups on to 1 and 2 (3 is already a control group) you would have to remove them from V, T, or 5. V, T, and 5 are easier to reach than 1 and 2 with the tilted hand position described, and assigned the greater task of control group selection and camera focusing (doubletapping the control group) on the stronger fingers. You could use C, V, R, T, 3, and 5 for hatchery hotkeys if you only want 3 for army (though R and V really are excellent for harass units, due to the ease of toggling between them).
Basically, over all, if you're hand is not place on the keyboard as the layout requires, your adjustments do improve upon the design. But, if you're using the correct positioning, the harder tasks are assigned to stronger fingers, unlike having 1 and 2 as control groups. If you never use Hold possition, and never plan to, using W or S as a control group would be better. I suggest moving 5 there, as it is the hardest to reach when using the correct hand angle.
Good thoughts, man, thanks for posting a thoughtful reply! <3
Thanks! You're right I typo'd and meant to say swap F and R because the finger is always on F. I think slightly faster access to production would be preferable than ability 1.
Also, I was thinking about getting rid of stop and putting hold position on S. I definitely use hold position frequently like you, but are there situations where stop is preferable to hold position?
You're totally right about V and T. I guess I'm just so used to spamming 34343434 or 454545 that it feels somehow naked without them. Just one more thing to adjust to, I suppose!
Hm, I guess having F as a control group will come down to a preference thing. For stuff like Blink, EMP, and Fungal I want to have the fastest access I can. But, you may desire faster access to production or whatever else (I have production on my mouse, right under where my thumb rests, so it's not a choice I'm challenged with : P ). Before I used my mouse I put production on 5, because using V and R for dual pronged harass is amazing, assuming ability 1 is on F (blink, stim, etc). F V still could be very good, but they don't feel as comfortable to me. In any case, the difference is pretty small, so do what feels best here.
I think of stop being used in two main situations that I use: 1) Marine Stutter Step (much smoother to use stop and move than attack move-click and move, or hold and move, which prevents your units in the back from engaging the enemy once you look away without canceling the hold orders). 2) The stop-idle worker split:
That is incredibly good vs banelings and mass BF-hellions. You can use the other methods of stutter stepping and manually worker split, though, if you do want to move your control groups closer.
Ha ha, it is a lot to adjust to. Take the new control group layout in phases, I know I have to. Right now I only use 3 cameras and I hardly use them, but I'm working on integrating the other ones, and I'm figuring out where I place my scouts and lings and whatnot. I have to adapt from going 3-4 control groups for army to having 6. For the cameras I intend to play a custom with a friend where I take all the bases on my side, and he moved medivacs over the worker lines. I have to pull before he gets over them (to simulate dodging stuff like bane drops). Just play that for an hour and it's amazing how much that helps. Don't forget you probably want your primary army on 4TG so you can tap and move spam them to move out.
I use a modified grid layout as well, but I use 1 for all hatches, 2 for all queens, 3 for inject larva, 4 for base cam. so i can just hit, 234 click, 234click to inject really fast, as it is my most used hotkey progression, it makes sense to me to make it really easy. Then 5 -> are army, f3+ f4 replaces 3 + 4 and i use those for upgrades. the other F keys add to the corresponding control group. So rather than shift 5, i just press f5 to add to army. etc etc. still working on the kinks, but it serves me well.
Do you think it's worth switching to this layout after all the time? i have small hands so i'm intrigued at being able to reach some more control groups quickly, but i don't know if it's worth it. How long do you think it will take to get used to?
anyway, instead of having the mouse buttons as production and tech, have you thought about maybe having it for tab and shift+tab to switch between units in-battle? it's what i use if im in a position where i cant very easily click the unit for any reason.
@Samtastic In order to get used to using most of the control groups and the new hotkey layout, it has taken me about 24-28 games. Using a build order tester to practice the new layout helps that along. I'm still adjusting to the way the late-game units are set up, but that's because not all of those 24-28 games got to the late games.
I really, really do think it's worth it though, especially if you have small hands.
@The Killers: Ha ha ha, QQ indeed.
Since all 10 control groups are within easy reach, it's faster to hit 4,T, V, G or B to select your other units, instead of having to hit tab however many times. Also, you want to split your tasks across your hands: if you select units, you're going to be using the mouse to command them most of the time. So, naturally, you want to select with your keyboard hand so that your mouse hand can be ready with no interference to execute the next orders.
The reverse is true, as well. When you're selecting structures you're most often (almost always) going to be using the keyboard hand next to produce units. So, since the mouse hand isn't going to be immediately engaged, using it for selection allows your keyboard hand to already be striking the keys to produce immediately after selection.
That's why I recommend placing production on the mouse (and currently I have my hatch/CC/Nexus on the mouse as well. It's working very nicely, I may want to update the layout.) That said, it probably doesn't make that huge of difference -- I mean, this part of it only make a difference if both players are almost exactly equal in skill.
just one question: reaching ctrl for selecting all units of one type seems kind of hard to do. Should I press that with the base of my hand, which feels very very strange or should I try to reach back with my pinky?
I use my pinkie. I don't find it too awkward, although it certainly is if you have your hand tipped in too much. I wish I could assign that function to Alt, but I didn't think of that till you mentioned it. <3
We have two of the 3 Masters players needed for "the plan". All I need now is a Terran player who wants to switch. If you fit the description, please contact me. ^^
I've been playing with and trying to learn this for a bit (only ~25 games so far). It's tricky but I think it will pay off. I'm a mid-masters Zerg for reference.
Here are some of the changes/specific binds I use that I think are great for Zerg. Also, I have shortish fingers so they help with that.
Control Groups: Use (Bind) #1: Army (R) #2: Army (T) #3: Army (G) #4: Harass/Drop (V) #5: Harass/Drop (B) #6: Hatches (Mouse5) This is actually one of the hardest to get used to #7: All Queens (3) Makes the spacebar inject very easy #8: Queen 1/Hatch 1 (4) #9: Queen 2/Hatch 2 (5) #10: Creep Queen/Hatch 3 (6)
I find this is a great Zerg setup. It lets me use spacebar inject in the early game, and then doubletap inject later. Another hidden benefit is that you have the 3, 4 and 5 keys bound early which I find helps since I tend to 343434 out of habit from thousands of games with a more typical hotkey layout. It sounds weird but to go 3434343434 and not have the menu bar change at all really throws me for some reason.
Overall, great layout and I hope I'm able to fully transition to it!
Foxy I like very much your layout, it takes time for me to get used to that after using the default keys for so long. As a Protoss player the only thing I didn't like is "y" as shortcut to warpgates. Have you tried to use middle mouse as shortcut to warpgates? It works for me as I never middle mouse scroll and it is much more comfortable, as my mind easier process pressing a bottom so close than to move less accurate left hand to far letter y and combine with q,w,e,d,f.
EPT
Will try it out once i retake SC2, been in hiatus because of school
