EPTZergs either have to prevent the push, engage it in the open, or go for the base race.
[G] PvZ: guide to an imbalanced special tactic - Page 9
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Myst1cus
7 Posts
Zergs either have to prevent the push, engage it in the open, or go for the base race. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:34 TolEranceNA wrote: Or, we can just wait for blizzard to patch this .. oh wait! I've been waiting over a year for Blizzard to make Queens massive... | ||
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madestro
Costa Rica108 Posts
Toss needs to use more warp prism the same way terrans need to use more ravens and zerg needs to use more queens, maybe 4 queens can help focus down the prism and also transfuse some spines at the nat while roaches stay in the main and lings in the nat, it's all situational and map dependant of course but no strat is unbeatable, else the game would be broken. Also if you catch this moving out you can delay it a bit with lings while trying to get roaches or infestors out, so it all comes down to skill and scouting and that's the way it should be. Does this timing hit before infestors assuming a Destiny style of play where you get infestors as fast as possible ? Seems fungal and +1 mass lings could be able to deal with this in a somewhat effective manner. | ||
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oneoneonewin
1 Post
Cry about TvP because of 1/1/1, use bullshit builds in PvZ. Protoss players so skilled. User was banned for this post. | ||
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[uci] Fizik
United States263 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 23 2011 03:03 [uci] Fizik wrote: Can zerg have burrow by this time of the game? My thoughts would be to just burrow your units until the forcefield wears away? maybe if you anticipate a blink stalker rush through proper scouting, maybe you see that warp prism passing by the xelnaga which you should have under your control for most the time, you can prepare for it. Other thoughts would be to just nydus between bases just in case. If anything you can have a nydus worm ready to break into your enemies base if they do not go blink stalker. Other thoughts would be to have banelings burrowed so they blink up, and BOOM! bs. burrowed roaches move so slow, blink stalker can rape some tech and blink away. <Repeat>. Also its hard to see this coming | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
Try to pick off spines with sight before blinking up allows me to flank with speedlings on the lowground before attacking with roaches on the highground? Not sure, but this is how i'd approach it. Only other possibility I can see is burrowed movement, but if they have an obs that's going to hurt a lot.... | ||
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[uci] Fizik
United States263 Posts
On August 23 2011 03:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: bs. burrowed roaches move so slow, blink stalker can rape some tech and blink away. <Repeat>. Also its hard to see this coming suicide a overlord, if you see primarily stalkers, a robo and a twilight council. Maybe you catch a chrono going off on the twilight. What else could they be doing? And like i mentioned, shouldn't your xel-naga see a swarm of stalkers making their way towards your base? you also do not address my other solutions like nydus network (im pretty sure you should have a lair by the time toss gets a twilight council and blink researched, if you do not that's pretty fail). You do not have to connect your bases right away, maybe you save it and if you do not see protoss push you nydus their base, or if you feel aggressive you counter push with nydus to force his army back in time for you to change tech. | ||
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Plutonik
Canada329 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 23 2011 03:19 [uci] Fizik wrote: suicide a overlord, if you see primarily stalkers, a robo and a twilight council. Maybe you catch a chrono going off on the twilight. What else could they be doing? And like i mentioned, shouldn't your xel-naga see a swarm of stalkers making their way towards your base? you also do not address my other solutions like nydus network (im pretty sure you should have a lair by the time toss gets a twilight council and blink researched, if you do not that's pretty fail). You do not have to connect your bases right away, maybe you save it and if you do not see protoss push you nydus their base, or if you feel aggressive you counter push with nydus to force his army back in time for you to change tech. You can see blink coming ofc, the warp prism can be hidden pretty easy until he moves to the base. Anyway, FF ramp block has no real counter. You can prevent "normal" ramp block by trying to spread out creep+spines from your natural, so the sentry cannot move in, however you pretty much can't prevent the drop + blink. Queens won't kill this in time. Also building preemptive spines and +4 queens just in case will kill you economically .. this stuff costs money you know. Once the ramp block is established, wether nydus (200/200+100/100) nor burrowed movement will help you, as burrowed roaches are too slow and loading/unloading nydus is extremely slow, too (the major reason it is not used frequently, most zerg units are faster without nydus, depends on number of units and map size). I am pretty sure as sneaky ramp blocking attacks get more popular, there will be a nerf (which is correct) or we'll see maps with wide chokes or a destructible rock backdoor. There just is no real counter to FF (same Fungal, however you can EMP/Feedback if you are not a Z), this is a problem. | ||
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ComebackKid
Canada105 Posts
On August 23 2011 03:03 [uci] Fizik wrote: I am pretty sure as sneaky ramp blocking attacks get more popular, there will be a nerf (which is correct) or we'll see maps with wide chokes or a destructible rock backdoor. There just is no real counter to FF (same Fungal, however you can EMP/Feedback if you are not a Z), this is a problem. There won't be a nerf because this type of attack can be scouted and preppared for/stopped. Artosis and Idra once stated, during their imbalanced youtube show, that they were only concerned with the highest level of play in order to discern whether or not something was ballanced or imballanced - not a direct quote but paraphrased. Im pretty sure that David Kim and the other people at Blizzard hold a smiliar philosophy to ballanced/imballanced. Yeah, this strat works against master players and lower, if it takes the player by suprise, but I don't think a top leveld pro would be phased by it because they would be able to scout the attack by sacking overlords in the P's base and having overlords scouting around their own base. I personally think this strat is great because all the nubs i play against as a high level master protoss player get wrecked by it, to the point where they can't even come up with a decent counter on this thread. But, as builds like this become more popular, people will learn to scout, defend, and counter them. Just because you're not skilled enough to deflect an all-in like this attack doesnt mean it's imballanced. | ||
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judicatormd
7 Posts
I have tried variations of this but I will try again as it seems to work well in these repolays | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 23 2011 04:23 ComebackKid wrote: There won't be a nerf because this type of attack can be scouted and preppared for/stopped. Artosis and Idra once stated, during their imbalanced youtube show, that they were only concerned with the highest level of play in order to discern whether or not something was ballanced or imballanced - not a direct quote but paraphrased. Im pretty sure that David Kim and the other people at Blizzard hold a smiliar philosophy to ballanced/imballanced. Yeah, this strat works against master players and lower, if it takes the player by suprise, but I don't think a top leveld pro would be phased by it because they would be able to scout the attack by sacking overlords in the P's base and having overlords scouting around their own base. I personally think this strat is great because all the nubs i play against as a high level master protoss player get wrecked by it, to the point where they can't even come up with a decent counter on this thread. But, as builds like this become more popular, people will learn to scout, defend, and counter them. Just because you're not skilled enough to deflect an all-in like this attack doesnt mean it's imballanced. hm .. so if i scout this, how should i prepare ? if i move my army to the main, i get trapped and nat is raped, if i stay at nat, he blinks to main and blocks ramp => tech/main is lost. nydus/burrowed roaches/drop will be too slow in most cases. the only counter i can think of is to catch his forces on the open field. however this won't work well with Zergy-build-army-just-when-attacked. Preemptive army = autolose for Z. Both fungal and ff imho are somewhat missdesigned. in BW there was stasis (freeze units for a time). bloodbad (like fungal, more damage but units could move), ensnare (slowdown, but no damage). fungal is like bloodbad+ensnare. FF: get 6,7 sentries and block any choke forever. the game would profit if those spells get nerfed somewhat. each of the BW spells was somewhat counterable by unit positing, healing, retreat. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 23 2011 05:01 judicatormd wrote: I have like a 0% win against Z with infestors being out. I have tried variations of this but I will try again as it seems to work well in these repolays yeah fungal is hard (i am Z). The disadvantage of infestors for Zerg is immobility. Infestor play feels like being a protoss. Since the ressource hungry Zerg needs to spread out, he has a hard time defending far bases. You can exploit this by using mobile units as far as possible (blink, drop, hellions, phoenix) and doing multiple smaller hit and run attacks. You hardly see a korean Zergs using infestors that much: one good emp or mass feedback all over a sudden makes you "naked" (no army). if you get dropped, it takes ages to bring your infestors to the fight. Additionally: Fight that creep, infestors are dog slow without creep. Personally i use infestors mainly as counter for mass marine play or defensive support unit (4-6), as Infestor play can be owned pretty hard mid to late game because of their immobility. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Wouldn't mass infestor with burrow do decently against this? I think a lot of IT and fungal might be strong but I suppose the power of this build is that you can retreat at any time with blink. Maybe Muta/ling would be good as well. Anyways.... Cool idea. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
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Vore210
Ireland256 Posts
Hah no, engaging out in the open is obviously the best way to stop this (but you have to react perfectly, stopping drone production and making a big enough army to stomp the large blink stalker force) or as Lalush did with drop + speed tech on overlords (though its insanely micro intensive). | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:49 Vore210 wrote: Nydus canals! Hah no, engaging out in the open is obviously the best way to stop this (but you have to react perfectly, stopping drone production and making a big enough army to stomp the large blink stalker force) or as Lalush did with drop + speed tech on overlords (though its insanely micro intensive). I think the micro-intensive drop play is probably the best answer; even with speed roaches, it's hard to chose your engagements on the open field against blink stalkers. The protoss player could just run away if you meet him in the open field, or maybe even try to do some sort of walk-by and get into your base anyways. | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:51 Jermstuddog wrote: I've been waiting over a year for Blizzard to make Queens massive... Amusingly enough, that would now give void rays a +20% damage against them. Perhaps it could be as simple as leaving a spine crawler on each side of the choke - though three hits mean that a suicidal sentry can still approach and forcefield as needed. | ||
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