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On August 22 2011 03:48 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:40 McGuire72 wrote:Just had this done to me on ladder. Despite my whininess earlier in the thread, I actually held it with nothing but roaches. Basically you need to spot it coming (I had an inkling he might try it) and pick off as many of his stalkers as you can as it comes across the map. Picking off the warp prism is obviously target #1 with queens or whatever you have at your disposal. From there I just made a point of targeting down the sentries (he dropped 4 in my base instead of 1) on the outside of the high ground (in range of my roaches). From there just clean up as best I could. Didn't lose too much in my main and I was on three base anyway. Just transitioned into mass upgraded roaches and infestors and blink stalkers are not an issue. here's the replay if anyone cares to see a successful hold... now this is diamond league so no doubt this isn't the "optimal" form of the build or hold, but it's an example of how you can do it. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175975-1v1-protoss-zerg-nerazim-crypt Yeah you probably won because he let his sentries get in range + die  If this was done optimally without being scouted then I don't see the zerg winning in my opinion. I will try this build and edit it into this post later.
LOOOL if Build X is done perfectly WITHOUT BEING SCOUTED you can't win. Duh. Great analysis. If I don't scout 6 gate double SG, i lose. If I don't scout DTs Iose. If you don't scout Roach Ling all in, you lose.
The point is, you SHOULD see it coming and have enough time to react. It just catches people off guard, especially at lower leagues.
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This is what happens when an entire race's early and mid game is based around a single ability...
I think the real problem is scouting it. Obviously it's easier to deal with IF you scout it. However, blink stalkers are fantastic for killing suicide overlords and taking map control. As long as the protoss player doesn't allow his robotics facility and council to be scouted (which shouldn't be difficult, as it can be produced when there are already plenty of stalkers out). If that is done, I don't see how (when done properly) it could not kill either the natural or main depending on where the zerg positions its units.
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LOL guys its clearly op, defenders of protoss just dont want to be nerfed, good protoss can do this with 2 warp prisms, and zerg cant snipe that warp prism because of blink. If he goes to main you can ff the ramp and kill nat, you have blink so retreat is no problem. Guys when i read these comments its like "hey man its so easy to defend for the zerg, just need to snipe that warp prism, yea sure but it takes half a sec to blink and kill anti air, and if the zerg snipes the wp the blink stalkers can kill the other units anyways. If this strat is executed properly zerg will lose 100%, if anyone can defend this at the same level, show me a rep and i will shut up.
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On August 22 2011 05:57 UltraRush wrote:
This is what happens when an entire race's early and mid game is based around a single ability...
I think the real problem is scouting it. Obviously it's easier to deal with IF you scout it. However, blink stalkers are fantastic for killing suicide overlords and taking map control. As long as the protoss player doesn't allow his robotics facility and council to be scouted (which shouldn't be difficult, as it can be produced when there are already plenty of stalkers out). If that is done, I don't see how (when done properly) it could not kill either the natural or main depending on where the zerg positions its units.
Uh this isn't a 1 base timing bro. It's off 2 base, with blink, and probably +1. Meaning you have enough time to get Lair and an overseer in their base right when Lair is done, which is what any good Zerg should do once Lair is done anyway (and what most of them do). Unless you're going to keep groups of 3-4 stalkers all over your base to hide your robo and council... you're not going to stop it from being scouted. A changeling can scout the army too. Zergling runby with only around 10 lings would see the prism too.
If you delay the timing of the robo and the council to get more stalkers to deny scouting, the entire push is delayed, and Z now knows you are hiding something.
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Yea, this is a strategy, I wouldn't call it imbalanced, its abusive. Can you hold roach/ling all-in while getting robo and blink?
What about super heavy roach play? They could just wait out the FFs, and either sack the base and take another then just defend the stalkers. I'm sure top level zerg players can deal with this is some way, what about burrowed roaches? Kinda directly owns this all-in.
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On August 22 2011 06:16 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:57 UltraRush wrote:
This is what happens when an entire race's early and mid game is based around a single ability...
I think the real problem is scouting it. Obviously it's easier to deal with IF you scout it. However, blink stalkers are fantastic for killing suicide overlords and taking map control. As long as the protoss player doesn't allow his robotics facility and council to be scouted (which shouldn't be difficult, as it can be produced when there are already plenty of stalkers out). If that is done, I don't see how (when done properly) it could not kill either the natural or main depending on where the zerg positions its units. Uh this isn't a 1 base timing bro. It's off 2 base, with blink, and probably +1. Meaning you have enough time to get Lair and an overseer in their base right when Lair is done, which is what any good Zerg should do once Lair is done anyway (and what most of them do). Unless you're going to keep groups of 3-4 stalkers all over your base to hide your robo and council... you're not going to stop it from being scouted. A changeling can scout the army too. Zergling runby with only around 10 lings would see the prism too. If you delay the timing of the robo and the council to get more stalkers to deny scouting, the entire push is delayed, and Z now knows you are hiding something.
I knew it was 2 base, but looking back at the screenshot the timing is later than I thought. Still, it's very possible to miss either the robo or council in the protoss's base if they are positioned smartly. Even if both are scouted though, it's only an indication that the build may be coming. I don't know the normal protoss building timings super well, but I would think it's pretty typical for the protoss to be getting robo around then, even with a council there as well.
But I don't know, I've never actually come across this on ladder so I have no in-game experience with it.
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On August 22 2011 05:44 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:38 ToastieNL wrote:On August 22 2011 04:15 Sn0wM4 wrote:On August 22 2011 03:52 Hetz wrote:On August 21 2011 18:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
i really hate FF. You just can't do anything as a zerg once the ramp is ff'ed. burred roaches are too slow to keep your tech alive. Its a matter of time when
a) queens can destroy ff
or
b) ff can't be spelled on creep. This. i'd love to see point b in the next patch, but it will probably only be a. One might consider adding c: FF can't be spelled near a queen (lets say 1 hex around the queen). or d: FF's can't be spelled on slopes. FF's use to be very very strong, but never OP. This will change things, haha. Well if you want to make sentries useless... A is pretty retarded , more or less (retarded) depending on how the queen can destroy it. B is stupid it's not as big of a nerf as A,C and D but will make Protoss have to deny creep spread constantly which in the lower leagues would be game-breaking. C means queens would be a massive unit making them way too strong at defending Stargate pressure which is already nerfed enough to make it not as viable. D makes PvT and PvZ unwinable.All Terran would need to do is either 3rax or really any Terran rush/all-in and Zerg would have to 7 Roach rush. Forcefield is as balanced as possible and nerfing it or removing it would make Protoss unplayable. Forcefield cannot be placed on Creep. Terran doesn't have as big of a problem with this, and this would also end the bullshit of Protoss retreating with FF/ engaging with FF on creep. Sorry, that's just plain and simply retarded. You can't solve the issue of ramp-blocking with forcefields by completely gimping protoss vs zerg when zergs don't even need help in the match-up. Making queens massive or something similar is a much better solution.
Of course it's retarded because forcefields are not a problem I haven't heard anyone complaining about them in months people just know how to deal with them.Making queens massive won't help much to be honest they are easily sniped by Stalkers and as I explained would make Stargate play almost impossible.Zergs just need to learn how to scout this build which is pretty easy really.And react by splitting their army and putting up spines in their main and natural it's an all-in build so holding it off will most likely be a win for a decent Zerg.Anytime some new strategy or build comes out people think it's can't be dealt with without even trying.Don't blame it on balance.Protoss play is advancing very quickly with new uses for the Warp Prism against Terran and Zerg.Zerg can't counter it without without having some advancement in their play too.
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Will be trying this out for sure.
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What if your opponent has infestors w/ burrow and drops infested terrans all over your nat nullifying the wall and then comes in with roaches.
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I can see any zerg using mutalisk play to stop this by sniping the warp prism. A nydus worm could be used to fast travel in/out of his base if the zerg had prepared one but that's not very likely.
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By the way; making queens massive would increase the amount of damage that a void ray does to it, but will make it impossible for phoenix to pick a queen up. So that would change; wether it's buff/nerf is not something we can know a priori (I think).
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The counter to this build would be destinys playstyle
Getting infestors and upgraded lings and once he blinks up just chainfungal 
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I feel like a genius now, I was doing this when I was playing protoss a long time ago ^^ (only diamond though). I remember seing another thread on that too a few months ago, in a cheesier one base version.
And since I switched to zerg since then I feel I should comment on that. The biggest trouble with this build is actually getting to your opponent's base. Against more ling based armies the zerg can actually chose where to engage quite well, and since you're investing so much in tech you won't do that well in a straight up fight. Other than that it worked really well for a while, especially when spanishiwa styles were so common because I think they're hard countered about as badly as they can with this.
As a now zerg player I don't think it's imbalanced, nor do I believe it requires special scouting. Just be on the look out when you see him move out. And like other people said it's quite cheesy. I'd rather be facing this than a lot of other things Protoss can do in PvZ. Not saying it's not good, but it's not great.
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its a nice and funny build, if you dont make mistakes in the early game, and u can mass a good amount of stalkers and dont lose the warprism u have a certain advantage, but the mass speedlings, and/or fast infestor can turn your build to ashes in just a sec, its a good build to practice anyway, thx!
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I'm only in diamond but this doesn't seem like it would work out at that well imo.
In the OP it mentions how roaches melt to stalkers, but mostly anyone would be making ling (or doubling)/infestor. I would end up making a useless roach warren probably, seeing gateways and suspecting the more normal zealot/stalker/sentry, but I wouldn't actually make roaches when I see little to no zealots off of 2 base.
And then when it comes to actually blinking into the main, that's also problematic. Against any gateway unit composition (especially stalkers) I'm going to want to surround you in the middle of the map anyway. Unless I'm totally dropping the ball on scouting, I'm going to want to engage you way before you're close enough to blink into the main, even if I have no idea you're about to try it. Basically, imo you have to hope that Z doesn't do exactly what it should be doing against your composition, even though they might not know your tactic.
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+1 armor first PvZ always if you're going mass stalker. Always, always, always. It's the same swing vs roaches and hydras as +1 weapon (that is, with weapon they die one shot sooner, with armor you survive one shot longer, either way it's the same shift), while it absolutely demolishes any zergling efficiency.
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On August 21 2011 17:20 Giwoon wrote:
nice
cant wait till this gets nerfed
1.4 patch ftw
I'm taking the Koreans' side lol jk.
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works perfectly vs fast 3 hatches. just go w/ 4 zealots on 3rd, he moves his army, u immediately go on main. game basically ends.
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Anyone saying "do this," "do that," when "this" or "that" isn't "catch the stalkers before they reach your base" is 100% wrong. Splitting your army LOSES. You will not win by putting half your roaches in your nat and half in your main. You will lose half your army and your entire main and be twice as screwed.
The ONLY way to beat this strat is to scout it coming and cut off his blink stalkers before they get to your base. This build comes fairly late (12~ minutes both times I've seen it now, and in the replays in this thread). You have time to get 3 bases up, with a good ball of upgraded roaches and a couple of infestors. If you think your opponent may be trying this, WATCH for the stalker ball to move out. Engage the stalkers with your roaches and infestors in the middle of the map. Destroy them. Do NOT let them approach your base. As SOON as they are in your main, just type GG and move on. IF you can halt them before they reach your base, you are at a huge advantage, and will likely win. Four sentries and a prism in your base is laughable. But for God's sake keep those blink stalkers away from your main. Don't be a retard and split your army up. That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
On August 22 2011 12:28 HQuality wrote:
works perfectly vs fast 3 hatches. just go w/ 4 zealots on 3rd, he moves his army, u immediately go on main. game basically ends.
And this upsets me cuz it's super smart and likely very effective. Don't fall for this lol
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You should include this in the OP:
Pros:
Hits early and hits hard, especially with attack upgrades
Possibility for heavy damage or outright win
Cons:
Requires long research time for Warp Gate and Blink
Easy to scout due to Templar Archives animation/chrono
Easy to predict due to lack of any other units but Stalkers
How to counter this as Zerg:
1. Sacrifice one or two Overlords ~7 minute mark
2. See only Stalkers and Templar Archives working
3. Upgrade +1 Melee and spam Zerglings
4. Notice him push out ~11 minute mark with Speedlings parked outside
5. Catch him with a surround on the route from his base to your base
Due to the fact that Blink Stalkers can't defensively micro against a Speedling ambush, and the fact that they take 3 or 4 slow firing shots to kill each Zergling, you should easily win the battle. Don't go all-in from here unless he really has nothing. Saturate your third base and enjoy your lead.
How to lose to this as Zerg:
1. Don't sacrifice any Overlord scouts
2. Don't have a Zergling parked outside his base
3. Build Slow-Roaches and Spine Crawlers
4. Notice his army once it is already approaching your cliff
Spine Crawlers are the absolute worst thing you could build if you suspect a Blink Stalker attack. Spines are best used defending a 4-gate or 6-gate. (This Blink Stalker build won't look like either of those because he will be Forge-Fast-Expanding.) Slow Roaches vs Blink Stalkers is also quite hilarious. Even Speed Roaches will have a hard time catching the defensively micro'd Stalkers. Speed Roaches with a couple dozen Speedlings flanking would work wonders in terms of holding them in place and not allowing escapes.
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EPT
