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On August 22 2011 13:34 Sajuuk7 wrote:
You should include this in the OP:
Pros:
Hits early and hits hard, especially with attack upgrades
Possibility for heavy damage or outright win
Cons:
Requires long research time for Warp Gate and Blink
Easy to scout due to Templar Archives animation/chrono
Easy to predict due to lack of any other units but Stalkers
How to counter this as Zerg:
1. Sacrifice one or two Overlords ~7 minute mark
2. See only Stalkers and Templar Archives working
3. Upgrade +1 Melee and spam Zerglings
4. Notice him push out ~11 minute mark with Speedlings parked outside
5. Catch him with a surround on the route from his base to your base
Due to the fact that Blink Stalkers can't defensively micro against a Speedling ambush, and the fact that they take 3 or 4 slow firing shots to kill each Zergling, you should easily win the battle. Don't go all-in from here unless he really has nothing. Saturate your third base and enjoy your lead.
How to lose to this as Zerg:
1. Don't sacrifice any Overlord scouts
2. Don't have a Zergling parked outside his base
3. Build Slow-Roaches and Spine Crawlers
4. Notice his army once it is already approaching your cliff
Spine Crawlers are the absolute worst thing you could build if you suspect a Blink Stalker attack. Spines are best used defending a 4-gate or 6-gate. (This Blink Stalker build won't look like either of those because he will be Forge-Fast-Expanding.) Slow Roaches vs Blink Stalkers is also quite hilarious. Even Speed Roaches will have a hard time catching the defensively micro'd Stalkers. Speed Roaches with a couple dozen Speedlings flanking would work wonders in terms of holding them in place and not allowing escapes.
great analysis of it, i just have one thing to add in the steps to win "have overlord positioning around his base to possibly see the prism" and its actually called a twilight council..templar archives is for hightemplar (the stormers)
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On August 22 2011 11:11 Vul wrote:
I'm only in diamond but this doesn't seem like it would work out at that well imo.
Did you watch the reps? They were gm zergs...
On August 22 2011 11:29 FiatFuror wrote:
+1 armor first PvZ always if you're going mass stalker. Always, always, always. It's the same swing vs roaches and hydras as +1 weapon (that is, with weapon they die one shot sooner, with armor you survive one shot longer, either way it's the same shift), while it absolutely demolishes any zergling efficiency.
with good micro, +1 armor is useless for your stalkers. You blink before they take health damage.
How to counter this as Zerg:
1. Sacrifice one or two Overlords ~7 minute mark
2. See only Stalkers and Templar Archives working
3. Upgrade +1 Melee and spam Zerglings
4. Notice him push out ~11 minute mark with Speedlings parked outside
5. Catch him with a surround on the route from his base to your base
Due to the fact that Blink Stalkers can't defensively micro against a Speedling ambush, and the fact that they take 3 or 4 slow firing shots to kill each Zergling, you should easily win the battle. Don't go all-in from here unless he really has nothing. Saturate your third base and enjoy your lead.
My reaction as a toss.
1. Scout a huge amount of lings with obsever.
2. Therefore, hug the walls, and add a couple of zealots.
3. Place your unit against the wall in a ball, so that speedlings can't get good surround.
4. Lol at him when he attacks, because your zealots 2 shot, and stalkers 3 shot lings with +2attack.
5. Micro back the stalkers
6. Your reinforcement route will be way faster then his, because he is engaging in the middle of the map, and not close to his base.
7. Go now forward with your prism and army.
8. FF the ramp and send your army to the main, or to the natural if zerg send his units to the main.
9. Take your hands off your keyboard, zerg will type out very soon.
I will be glad to play anyone who has find out a 'counter'.
+ Show Spoiler +
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So you are hugging wall, what if he attack when you are not hugging? There must be a time when you are vulnerable. Also, while hugging the wall, and moving slowly out, this push is only getting slower right? Doesn't this buy crucial time for zerg, for example, spines? I have seen quite a few zergs put their tech and Lair at their natural to prevent them being locked out from their ramp. Have you encountered this?
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For all those saying this is (easy) to hold for zerg, please provide a high level replay corroborating this. Else it didn't happen and thus shut t.. f... u..
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this is old tactics but people dont use warp prism enough which is why i dont see it in ladder as often. they are freakin slow and when scouted properly, gives enough time for speedlings to run back to base. also this is the reason why all zergs should research drops. its good in the short-term allins, pick up all army and into base and in the long-term harras.
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On August 22 2011 16:01 AA.spoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 11:11 Vul wrote:
I'm only in diamond but this doesn't seem like it would work out at that well imo.
Did you watch the reps? They were gm zergs... Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 11:29 FiatFuror wrote:
+1 armor first PvZ always if you're going mass stalker. Always, always, always. It's the same swing vs roaches and hydras as +1 weapon (that is, with weapon they die one shot sooner, with armor you survive one shot longer, either way it's the same shift), while it absolutely demolishes any zergling efficiency. with good micro, +1 armor is useless for your stalkers. You blink before they take health damage. Show nested quote +How to counter this as Zerg:
1. Sacrifice one or two Overlords ~7 minute mark
2. See only Stalkers and Templar Archives working
3. Upgrade +1 Melee and spam Zerglings
4. Notice him push out ~11 minute mark with Speedlings parked outside
5. Catch him with a surround on the route from his base to your base
Due to the fact that Blink Stalkers can't defensively micro against a Speedling ambush, and the fact that they take 3 or 4 slow firing shots to kill each Zergling, you should easily win the battle. Don't go all-in from here unless he really has nothing. Saturate your third base and enjoy your lead. My reaction as a toss. 1. Scout a huge amount of lings with obsever. 2. Therefore, hug the walls, and add a couple of zealots. 3. Place your unit against the wall in a ball, so that speedlings can't get good surround. 4. Lol at him when he attacks, because your zealots 2 shot, and stalkers 3 shot lings with +2attack. 5. Micro back the stalkers 6. Your reinforcement route will be way faster then his, because he is engaging in the middle of the map, and not close to his base. 7. Go now forward with your prism and army. 8. FF the ramp and send your army to the main, or to the natural if zerg send his units to the main. 9. Take your hands off your keyboard, zerg will type out very soon. I will be glad to play anyone who has find out a 'counter'. + Show Spoiler +
It doesn't really matter how good the Z's you beat were, because this is a very technical strategy and a single mistake is a loss.
But it is really gimmicky, its not like blink stalkers is anything new...yeah your tactics are slightly different than most, but point being the usual counter to blink stalkers is making a lot of units.
What walls are you going to hug running cross map tal'darim? Or nerazim? The second I see a lot of stalkers and upgrades from forge, I cut drone saturation from my 3rd immediately, I guess if you take a really bad fight yeah this is pretty strong, but a lot of top Z's take retarded fights.
Strategies like this, 6 gate, and any other strategy and has a high success rate of immediately ending the game seem really good until someone deals with it properly.
For ladder it will probably rack up plenty wins for a little while, but even then the current meta game you see a lot of ling/infestor, which I know for certain will destroy those.
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I know those kind of strategies only have a real impact for master+ level (in which you know how to FFE properly while having good timings on your gaz and tech, depending on your scouting). However, even a rough shape of build order featured in the guide would be greatly appreciated by more modest players.
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A lot of noobs here acting like it's not imbalanced. One kid even said base trades would kill him rofl! Unless they leave a single sentry at their base and then they are invincible.
Force fields in combat are necessary for protoss. Force Fields on ramps have always been imbalanced. Protoss is the only race that can literally beat 200/200 armies of roach with instant remaxing forever with 4 sentry on the ramp. The only race that can say "want to attack me? Na, i'd rather be invincible until your tier 2.5." Force fields need to do something else like slow down movement going through them, which would still help a lot in combat but wouldn't make for dumb shit like FF on opponents ramp. Or maybe being inside a FF could cause damage idfk, it's just dumb as hell for it to actually erase a part of the map pretty much and be impossible to inhabit it.
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Well, I guess next time one of these zergs encounter you on ladder they'd better get burrow and burrow movement before your warp prism shenanigans. A very strong tactic for sure, though.
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Incredible strat thanks for sharing 
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On August 22 2011 20:36 EneMal wrote:
A lot of noobs here acting like it's not imbalanced. One kid even said base trades would kill him rofl! Unless they leave a single sentry at their base and then they are invincible.
Force fields in combat are necessary for protoss. Force Fields on ramps have always been imbalanced. Protoss is the only race that can literally beat 200/200 armies of roach with instant remaxing forever with 4 sentry on the ramp. The only race that can say "want to attack me? Na, i'd rather be invincible until your tier 2.5." Force fields need to do something else like slow down movement going through them, which would still help a lot in combat but wouldn't make for dumb shit like FF on opponents ramp. Or maybe being inside a FF could cause damage idfk, it's just dumb as hell for it to actually erase a part of the map pretty much and be impossible to inhabit it.
And using your language, a lot of crybabies like you are moaning imba because they do not know proper responses.
Back to polite conversation though, there are counters to this strategy, so there should be no reason for the imbalance discussion (especially that this forum guidelines clearly state that Strategy Forum is no place for such discussion).
The strategy is definitely strong if executed properly though - a nice addition to your usual +2 attack 7 gate blink with obs I'd say, or just as a nice harassment if you catch the Zerg out of position.
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On August 21 2011 15:31 Kornholi0 wrote:
I heard infestors were pretty good. Personally scouting robo and gateways I get a lot lot lot spines... Then rush for infestors. takes what 3 fungals to kill a warprism and your entire strategy is dead...
I dunno but I think protoss need to practice less and less all-ins and more and more well scouted "macro/lategame" orientated plays.
You can't count on the zerg not scouting the warprism and the blink, thus allowing units in the main and the spines at the front :|
You can't count on the protoss to mis-micro and throw a warp prism in range when he has an obs.
If you can't actually blink into his main and kill him you can take a 3rd and deny his 3rd/4th, which is basically a win there too. I've been doing something similar and it's ridiculously good. This can be turned into an aggressive macro/late game play if you play it right. I've showed a friend this and had him do the build to me, it was basically impossible for me to secure a 4th and ended up being 3 base vs. 3 base for a long time.
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I was actually thinking of counters today and came up with a couple.First would be to get a Nydus worm upon scouting it and second would be to get overlord drop.You will always have enough overlords to drop your whole army as Zerg.Problem - solved.
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On August 22 2011 22:14 Sn0wM4 wrote:
I was actually thinking of counters today and came up with a couple.First would be to get a Nydus worm upon scouting it and second would be to get overlord drop.You will always have enough overlords to drop your whole army as Zerg.Problem - solved.
Uhh, I can't tell if you're serious with this.
They have stalkers. That can shoot up. And blink under your overlords. Have fun losing half your army for nothing with ovie drops.
And the same can basically be said with a nydus. You could probably flank his army with it or something insane like that but it's not a viable option in all scenarios.
This is all assuming you knew it was coming for a fact too, or else you're just blindly investing in kind of useless tech unless you're going for a drop/nydus heavy style.
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On August 22 2011 22:14 Sn0wM4 wrote:
I was actually thinking of counters today and came up with a couple.First would be to get a Nydus worm upon scouting it and second would be to get overlord drop.You will always have enough overlords to drop your whole army as Zerg.Problem - solved.
Your ideas already fail at the point where you assume that this style of play is 'scoutable'. Yes you can scout the Gates, the TC and even the Robo. But none of that really tells you "Warp-Prism Blinkstalkers!" since the Robo often is used for Immortals or just an Anti-Creep/Anti-Burrow Observer. You'd have to be really lucky with your Overlords to get the specific useful information against a Toss who is massing tons of stalkers (yeah well this tells you "Blinkstalker!" but not the specific variation he wants to use).
The time build/research time for Nydus/Ventral Sacks is too slow to be used reactonary after you saw the Warp-Prism (which would be the really revealing scout information) and they are too costly of an investment to get them 'just in case'.
I really wouldnt call your suggestion counters - if your strategy was based around Drop/Nydus(LOL) anyway they are nice additions that will make defending a lot easier. But in the sense of a "ah i scouted him im going to do this to react!"-counter they are pretty much useless.
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What's wrong with ovie drop? You can load up and drop in the back of your base, and if he sees that, you actually have the ability to counter attack via doom drop.
I don't think ovie drop is useless tech. Even if you're not going lings or banelings, un upgraded zergling drops are very effective, I feel the only reason zerg doesn't use them more is that its not strictly necessary. But you kill 4 probes and force them off mining for 30 seconds you've pretty much paid for it (200 mins + ~300-400 lost mining time and about 100 gas lost mining time). That assumes he actually gets his probes off of gas and they dont die to zerglings as well. Even if there's 4 stalkers at the edge I'm pretty sure you can literally unload 8 zerglings on top of them and lose cost effectively (target down 2 stalkers)
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On August 22 2011 22:38 Huntz wrote:
What's wrong with ovie drop? You can load up and drop in the back of your base, and if he sees that, you actually have the ability to counter attack via doom drop.
I don't think ovie drop is useless tech. Even if you're not going lings or banelings, un upgraded zergling drops are very effective, I feel the only reason zerg doesn't use them more is that its not strictly necessary. But you kill 4 probes and force them off mining for 30 seconds you've pretty much paid for it (200 mins + ~300-400 lost mining time and about 100 gas lost mining time). That assumes he actually gets his probes off of gas and they dont die to zerglings as well.
It's an extremly expensive tech in the early stages of the game that doesn't actually give you more fighting power - which is exactly what you would want to have against massive amounts of blinkstalkers. 300/300 are fore example Burrow and Tunneling Claws for all your Roaches, which increases the effectiveness of your Roaches by a huge margin.
Don't get me wrong. Drop is an awesome upgrade that could definetly see some more use from Z-players. But it's not the investment you want to make if your first priority is to defend against some kind of timing push.
Even if there's 4 stalkers at the edge I'm pretty sure you can literally unload 8 zerglings on top of them and lose cost effectively (target down 2 stalkers)
Do you actually play this game (no offence, but that just seems to be such an extreme misjudgement of a situation that I really can't imagine that your actively playing)? You can literally unload 1 Zergling in this situation before the overlord goes down to the stalkers.
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This is a strong push to be sure, but I think zerg need to look at ways to prevent it as opposed to how to stop it once it's at your door.
For instance, a low sentry count all game means an early roach/ling push off of 2 bases can and will do damage while delaying the push until your tech is established.
It will at least (on every map except maybe Shakura's) kill the forge.
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This strat works very well. I think, if this strat becomes more popular on ladder, zergs will learn to keep their army centralized in their main/natural. Also, this strat proves the importants of scouting overlords, and/or overlords positioned outside your base. Im my last game where i used this strat, had the zerg seen my army coming, blinking along the way with a warp prism flying overhead, they would have ran their army up into their main. Zerg units are so mobile, so why not keep em close to your main anyways? Why do they have to be positioned at the natural or out on the map, unless they are used for scouting or harassing/destroying rocks etc...
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EPT
