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On August 14 2011 21:13 lcl wrote:
2 things that helped me quite a bit:
1. Mutas usually dont come out until 9 minutes so scan his main at 9 minutes to see if spire is building or finished and then you know if you need to make turrets.
2. thors are great vs muta especially if you are attacking his base with tanks and thors and helions
TLO does a build where he reactor helion expands and with all his gasses taken he makes 4 factories. you make loads of helions, like 4 tanks and enough thors to kill the mutas - so long as you are ready for muta around 9 mins then you will be fine.
The first point is terrible advice. If you see mutas popping, and you have no turrets. Your fucked. Its too late. You need to know in advance if mutas are coming. Youll have an ebay anyways. Just put 1 turret in every min line at like the 830 mark. Thats 200 min, not a huge loss, esp in bronze. And it will save you from the, ah crap there are mutas i didnt know were coming.
Also yea offensive, just make some thors if hes massing muta. Thors are good in all levels, but in bronze where the muta micro will suck. 3 thors raaaaape a muta ball so hard.
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stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors.
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On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors.
And ultras, and roaches.
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To appeal to the title of the thread, I will tell you what I do in the case of mutalisks, as both P and T.
If Z goes mutas, and is committing to them pretty hard (getting them early on 2-3 bases), you can just macro as normal and keep a lookout for either a spire or typical signs of muta play. When you have determined that he is going mutas, you move out asap. His ground army will be weak, and his mutas won't be able to take you head on (their mobility is null if he's trying to use them to fight your push). He has 2 choices:
1. lose his mutas to your army
2. play towards a base race
He's probably going to choose option #2, and when he does, you will win. His mutas will be far less efficient at killing your buildings than your army, especially if you throw up some turrets before moving out.
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On August 20 2011 02:41 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors. And ultras, and roaches.
Marines can rape ultras if you spread them out really well, and assuming you fighting with 0/0 vs 3/5.
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On August 20 2011 02:56 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:41 Squigly wrote:On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors. And ultras, and roaches. Marines can rape ultras if you spread them out really well, and assuming you fighting with 0/0 vs 3/5.
0/0 vs 3/5. It wouldnt matter if you had the micro for MKP. You lose that. Its not even funny how hard you lose that. Cost for cost marines die so hard against ultras. Please dont post silly posts.
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An offensive counter? Usually a marine tank turret push works wonders. Whenever you push bring three scvs for making turrets, They're great for killing mutas without drawing fire to/from the rest of the zerg army. If you don't have thors out, try making a sensor tower as well; it really helps making sure your units aren't caught out of position.
On August 20 2011 02:56 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:41 Squigly wrote:On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors. And ultras, and roaches. Marines can rape ultras if you spread them out really well, and assuming you fighting with 0/0 vs 3/5.
If zerg realistically gets a +2 carapace over infantry weapons, marines will do 3 damage a shot, in the case you gave marines will do a single damage. Are you sure you weren't mistaking marauders for marines?
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Are you sure they do 1. I think they do half, as thats the lowest possible. I may be wrong though 
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This is sorta a situational solution ive found that tends to work well with mutas.
Best way ive found of dealing with muta's is to just push as soon as i see a spire going down. however your not going to always see that spire going down but if you do alot of zerg tend to be saving gas/minerals/larvae at that point so if you have been keeping a reasonable control of your macro you will either have a reasonable sized army. When you attack you can force them to spend their savings and if they dont you can tend to take out an expansion. If you see them spending alot of larva at that point on roaches/lings/etc its perfectly fine to go home with your army. It gives you more time to deal with the "eventual" muta ball rather then the "sudden" mutaball. If you dont see that swell of units push an expansion. They might spend the money on the mutas as your killing the expansion. Which just ends up with a small amount of mutas popping up at 1 base and the others trickling in. If you kill an expansion at this time go back home!
This is however situational and but its what ive found works quite well.
But when you dont spot the spire going up id say do exactly what these folks have said!
Also a few things about zerg and scouting. where is the gas going.
If you see lots of roaches you dont have to worry about mutas for a while. If you see almost exclusively zerglings without any upgrades start worrying about mutas/infestors etc
also small note the +armor upgrade for terran does wonders for reducing bounce damage of mutalisks.
Goodluck with your muta problems try not to freak out too much. Just remember ... like poop ... "mutas happen"  lol
*edit* - replay specific
After watching the replay (i didnt see there was a replay till i went back through the thread) at 1 point you had 20 turrets. First of all thats 2000 minerals. Thats cost for cost 40 marines. More importantly the money spent on static defense reduces your ability to leave your base and makes your subsequent army smaller when you do attack. Also you didnt have stim or combat shields.
However if your going for a mech focused style you didnt have that many thors out and again no upgrades for your mech army. Leaving yourself with a massive hole when it comes to combating air with your army.
You would be suprised how well 40 ish marines stimmed can do against mutalisks.
However i want to point out for a bronze level player im quite impressed with your scv production in the early game keep that up it will help you get better as you progress.
Hope any of this helps! i went through many games with a friend of mine where he went heavily into mutalisks. Now i still lose to them occasionally but i dont freak out when i see them like i used to. Once you control the AHH MUTALISKS! aspect they are less threatening and you can think clearer.
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fun fact, missile turret vs light (mutalisk, phoenix, banshee and I believe interceptors are the only light air units) is the highest dps per cost in the entire game, its dps/cost is even higher than carriers, broodlords, yamato cannon, 250mm strike cannon, stimmed marine, spore crawler and crackling.
hinthint missile turrets are good at defending, so that makes your army able to move.
edit:
On August 20 2011 03:26 Squigly wrote:Are you sure they do 1. I think they do half, as thats the lowest possible. I may be wrong though
in the example he gave the marines did X damage and the attacked unit had X-1 armour, in this case 1 damage will be done, if it had been X damage vs X armour, then it would have done 0.5 damage, same with X damage vs Y armour where Y>X.
a formula for you
*does not apply to spells
*where X is the damage
*where Y is the armour
if X>Y
deal X-Y damage
else
deal 0.5 damage
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you can always just attack, and make him defend with his mutas... mutas aren't great for defense.
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I suggest the Enter keys as a good counter, with this method you can adapt your response to every situation possibles. You will probably use bad mannered words if the opposing player is good with the ''mutalisk'' but well placed sentences can even out the game. Its a common strategy for bronze player, and with a good timing attack before it, your way to silver is already done. I have this other advive, if you are in that stalemate position for 40 min your not in a losing position and since terran is imba, on an even game you will win, so try to extend it to 3 hours or 4, your gonna need good concentration to don't fall asleep but since this mechanics is mastered by playing terran
wait the ''ZzzzZZzzz'' key chat of the zerg before attacking. Succes garanted. gl hf
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On August 20 2011 02:41 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors. And ultras, and roaches.
go to unit tester, try equal resource marines with stim vs roaches and lemme know. Ultras are only good vs marines vs someone with no upgrades and or doesn't know how to micro/use sim city against them. Ultras at times seem like they have broodwar esque ai when someone knows how to micro vs them. It's why they really aren't good in zvz, ya they "counter" roaches but anyone how knows how to press t with their infestors can really neutralize their effectiveness
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On August 20 2011 02:41 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors. And ultras, and roaches.
Equally upgraded Marines beat Roaches straight up, and beat Ultralisks if you are decent at spreading them. Against Banelings it's a question of micro in real play, but with theoretically perfect micro Marines easily are a counter to Banelings.
With decent micro Marines counter everything except Infestors and Banelings, and one of those is still a toss-up.
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On August 14 2011 21:40 Buruguduy wrote:
you are bronze.
sorry to break it to you, but it isn't mutas that are killing you it's your own self. defending mutas is the least of your problems.
Lol mega helpful bro.
In bronze you are going to see variations all over the place of muta pressure.
I suggest the following:
Scan his main base and see his tech, do so before 10 minutes or you are toast. Better players may use hellions/drops or that sort of thing to harass AND scout, but for now -- you have scans, need to scout, and probably aren't that great at it, use the scans. Later, when you are better, cut the scans for more money (mules). I doubt you are waiting for that awesome mule cash more than a few times early game anyway.
This is simple. Spire? Muta, especially if no infestation pit/hive tech. Later in the came you may come to expect the dreaded Broodlord/Infestor combo, but for now let's focus on mutas off lair tech...
When you see this (usually around 7-9 mins) you next need to now find out how many mutas.
Did he save tons of gas and go pure ling on 4 gases and he is about to pop 10+ (probably not, though bronze macro will slip enough that you may see huge bursts from z)? What about just 6 mutas. Is it late to mid game and he's still on lair and spire at 15-18 mins? 25+mins only lair tech with a spire?
You need to scale turrets in base with his muta count. Eventually, you'll see a massive ball of mutas (like that last scenario I mentioned above), and the 2 ways you can deal with it is:
1.) Turrets in base, mutiple, and a thor (or 2 thors). The mutas will melt a turret, hardly worth the micro you use to repair it. But the thor has tons of life, range, and dmg. Repair the shit out of that thor and he will be worth it. Again, thors, while really solid against zerg generally should be especially used for mutas. The multi-hit bonus to light is devestating with the splash dmg.
2.) Offense. Mutas just don't quite have the DPS your army does. They win with mobility. You can force the zerg in a position, where he may feel like if he leaves his base with his muta mass he will lose. You do this by pressuring him with marine/tank outside of his creep. If you see him run a ton of mutas in your base, that is your queue to up the pressure considerably (and pull workers, etc). You can force mutas to fight your army, instead of harassing your base like crazy. They're really good are trapping you in your base and making lower level players feel hopeless as far as moving out goes. They really suck when they hit a Terran army head-on.
Also, if you suspect or know mutas are coming, and you are in your base, with a safe wall and/or tanks. Split some marines to your mineral line (or just near the line). If it is early and 8 mutas roll in the side of your main, the 8 marines you stim and run at the mutas will make the zerg either: trade inefficiently or run. DO NOT OVER STIM, DO NOT STIM EVERY MARINE -- stim marines near the mutas that will, practically, hit the mutas. Losing 10hp of 13 marines on the other side of the map, because you stimmed every marine is a terrible mistake.
Other info provided in this thread should be implemented to your play.
I'd say 1 turret in each base for each 5-8 mutas on the field (estimate, you'll rarely know exacts). I like 2 if I know my opponent has committed pretty hard to mutas. One IN your mineral line, and one nearby. Make sure they're range overlaps a little. Once he was 20+ mutas, keep a thor in each base.
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Don't over commit to turrets in base, make marines, generally, instead -- they will allow you to take a more offensive posture and open up your ability to, instead, pin the zerg and make him feel the pressure.
Mutas don't hold pressure quite like infestors do. (unless all your marines and thor go the way of dead).
Watch out of banelings. Shoot them with tanks, they evaporate.
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On August 20 2011 04:48 Melancholia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:41 Squigly wrote:On August 20 2011 02:40 Moosegills wrote:
stimmed marines kill everything that zerg has except banes and infestors. And ultras, and roaches. Equally upgraded Marines beat Roaches straight up, and beat Ultralisks if you are decent at spreading them. Against Banelings it's a question of micro in real play, but with theoretically perfect micro Marines easily are a counter to Banelings. With decent micro Marines counter everything except Infestors and Banelings, and one of those is still a toss-up.
Cool so if they dont make infestors make pure marines. Thatll def work. Just micro against dem banes.
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On August 20 2011 02:29 RU206 wrote:hey guys i have a replay of me just playing against a zerg (hes platinum league, im still bronze lol). please don't make fun of how bad i am... i just really didnt know what to do. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12095
I watched your replay.
You built turrets too fast. You don't seem to have the micro to pull off a fast blue flame hellion attack, just go bio as it is easier to control (3 rax for instance).
You need to build more units, your buildings are often not doing anything.
At 13 minutes, you have 2 banshees with cloak waiting in your base. Use them ! By 15 minutes 30 seconds, you have 4 banshees. You then move them out at 16 minutes 30 seconds only to lose them right away since you 1) move them right into the middle of battle and 2) don't cloak.
At 16 minutes, you lost every one of your marines in a terrible engagement. You move clicked the marines so they all died without ever shooting the zerglings. Learn to always always attack move. Also in this case you should have backed off to use the cover of your sieged tanks.
You are relying on marines to take care of the mutas but you only have 1 rax at 16 minutes. Your marines have no combat shield and no stim. In this case, you just can't move out against a decent number of mutas. Sit back, get some more anti air units (marines or Thors) --- you can try to secure another expansion before you go for a big assault.
Here is my advice. Stick to the 3 rax build for now ---- much less confusing and much less hard micro. Learn to A move. Focus on macro. Welcome to diamond league.
Edit: This is from a former Master league player, currently in Diamond...
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The counter to mutalisks is the engineering bay. 3/3 marines + Turrets.
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On August 20 2011 07:40 lorkac wrote:
The counter to mutalisks is the engineering bay. 3/3 marines + Turrets.
And 2-3 thors. Mutas now do literally nothing
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EPT
