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eatmybunnies
United States90 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:56 iChau wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253184 "FFE vs 1GFE" There's a lot of things you can read here to understand the pros and cons of each builds. HMM yea i do see a difference thanks | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =( | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On August 13 2011 01:28 CecilSunkure wrote: Interesting opening, coolest part is the early Blink. Looks like you get a slightly earlier Nexus and trade a Gateway. I think it would be more robust if you got more Gates, but then just didn't make units out of them, that way you have the potential to use your infrastructure if need be. This allows you to also cut an earlier cannon, and make it later on when you don't need the minerals so much (just before you Blink out, for example). If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count. I like MCs build but sometimes I'm unsure of what to do with the stargate after building the first void ray... is it ok to just build nothing out of it after the first void ray and go for sth like blink +gates asap instead or should I always use the stargate and keep building phoenixes? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 13 2011 01:59 7mk wrote: I like MCs build but sometimes I'm unsure of what to do with the stargate after building the first void ray... is it ok to just build nothing out of it after the first void ray and go for sth like blink +gates asap instead or should I always use the stargate and keep building phoenixes? Not sure if this should be discussed in Time's topic, but I suppose it's relevant since you can get a Stargate with Time's opening instead of Blink. The first voidray should be used to clear Xel'Nagas, pressure new hatcheries, basically it's a form of map presence. The Phoenix are good after the Voidray (since the Voidray can shoot without using energy) because they have better burst power, as in can kill 5 drones really fast then run away very fast. They are also very useful mid-game in defending attacks. But you can cut the phoenix and do something else, because if you get Phoenix and don't know how to use them, you're better off spending that money elsewhere. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
appreciate your comments as always | ||
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GxZ
United States375 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 12 2011 21:09 Anfi wrote: Not entirely certain as to why this build is bad on tal'darim. Is it just the distance? Yes, mostly. On August 12 2011 21:43 FederigoEU wrote: I still die to infestors with this opening , , i deny his thrid when the Z plays Destiny Style , but after that it goes downwars  .Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :> Plz watch replays first and/or post a replay of yours and I'll take a look at it when I get the chance. On August 13 2011 00:23 eatmybunnies wrote: I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg. I do not need forge against 6 pool, since you can easily hold it off using probes to help when your pylon+gate are near your nexus. With forge FE, you have far worse scouting, since your sentries come out a lot later and you will not be able to utilize hallucinate early game. It's a completely different style of play, opening forge FE vs 1/2/3 gate FE, but I'm sure you can take similar midgame strategies and use them from a forge FE if you worked on it. On August 13 2011 01:28 CecilSunkure wrote: Interesting opening, coolest part is the early Blink. Looks like you get a slightly earlier Nexus and trade a Gateway. I think it would be more robust if you got more Gates, but then just didn't make units out of them, that way you have the potential to use your infrastructure if need be. This allows you to also cut an earlier cannon, and make it later on when you don't need the minerals so much (just before you Blink out, for example). If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count. I'll look into learning oGsMC's 1 gate FE. Currently I only 1 gate FE against really late gas, but my teammate alej has told me that you can be safe doing that even against more aggressive openings. I have tried 1 gate FE variants in the past, but I struggled against players like slush, lowely, and random ladder zergs who play very aggressively and pump lings at weird timings. EDIT: About MC's 1 gate FE, does it rely on the void ray to defend against roach/ling aggression, or could I still get blink as quickly? I am not a huge fan of opening stargate on maps where the third is at any reasonable distance from the zerg's natural, since they can shut it down completely with spores/queens and drone to like 80. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote: Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base. Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =( I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch. Do you have a replay of you doing that? EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 13 2011 02:20 vVvTime wrote:EDIT: About MC's 1 gate FE, does it rely on the void ray to defend against roach/ling aggression, or could I still get blink as quickly? I am not a huge fan of opening stargate on maps where the third is at any reasonable distance from the zerg's natural, since they can shut it down completely with spores/queens and drone to like 80. It's my understanding that he prefers the Stargate since he can use it to see everything anytime, and constantly look over the attack paths of the Zerg. But I don't see a reason why you can't just go for Blink. MC even gets 3+ Gates and just doesn't use them if he sees the Zerg playing passive. I'd imagine you'd get 5 Gates + Twilight, so the defense sounds to me to be a comparison between 5 Gates and 3 Gates + Stargate. Though I think it's pretty important to note that you use your Gates with the MC style expand to wall the Natural. I'd imagine if a lot of lings were pumped at a strange time you'd place those Gates at the natural, while chronoing things out of your single Gateway. Then take the Nexus when you've pressed the lings away. At least that's what I've tried to do. It will delay your Nexus a little bit because the Gates are likely to be delayed, but hey he just made a bunch of lings so he's delayed as well. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
pure Ling all ins on the other hand arent that hard in my experience since the wall off comes really early and wall off + force fields can beat infinity lings I guess. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
I'll watch the rest of the replays now. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On August 13 2011 02:32 vVvTime wrote: I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch. Do you have a replay of you doing that? EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build. I'll watch the replay once I get home (on the bus, posting from fone). The fast third (aroun 5-5:30) is a somewhat newer style of PvZ, inspired by Nestea and Losira (they do it almost all their PvZs). The thing is though, on a map like say Shakuras, you're safe no matter how you open up. But on a wide open natural, 2 cannons isn't going to stop my 20+ speedlings from tearing up your expansion. If I scout 2 gate FE with a 35 expo, it's the same as with any Toss expo. Either put pressure on them, or let them expand and take a fast third. I do both, especially since I'll probably see your attack coming with Xel naga towers and ling pokes. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds? | ||
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SpaNkinG
Turkey89 Posts
i normally never copy strat's from here but this sounds solid , safe and you still have enough to pressure your oponent! thanks mate | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote: Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions. vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds? I have a 2 gate FE against PvT as well (currently with many sentries to deal with reactor+tech lab 2 rax), but I have a blink expand build in PvT that I'll write up after I play a lot more games with it and get the timings+responses down. Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On August 13 2011 03:46 vVvTime wrote: Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week. Will you have my babies? If mommyship rushing is actually a viable all-in, im the happiest person ever. On a serious note, i have a couple questions after playing a few games with this build: 1) say i scout really late or no third at 9.30, either because he's just bad (yay for diamond ladder) or is doing some funky hydra-ling allin or fast infestor play. At this point i should just not pressure when +1 and blink finish, and kill him off with the colosuss all-in, correct? 2) It seems like you think that nothing without bane bombs can hold your colossus all-in, mostly. Is this the case? In your replays you really rarely take a third, and it seems to work out really well. | ||
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