EPTI torn about the 10 minute attack. It seems very small and a Zerg can reinforce quickly and just take it out. What are the triggers to do/not to do this attack, what is the goal of this attack and how to do decent damage without simply dying?
[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16 - Page 5
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
I torn about the 10 minute attack. It seems very small and a Zerg can reinforce quickly and just take it out. What are the triggers to do/not to do this attack, what is the goal of this attack and how to do decent damage without simply dying? | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 14 2011 02:10 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Time I have a question: I torn about the 10 minute attack. It seems very small and a Zerg can reinforce quickly and just take it out. What are the triggers to do/not to do this attack, what is the goal of this attack and how to do decent damage without simply dying? This is explained in the early game pressure+scouting section. As for knowing when their army is too big for you to try to cancel their 3rd, I don't think there is any replacement for experience. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
Still making tons of mistakes but I'm getting there. Theres a lot of possibilities for variation in this build, like I agree that u dont have to go for blink, if you want you can use the 150 gas for something else. Imo the early +2 +3 attack already makes the twilight council worth it. | ||
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caneras
433 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 14 2011 15:16 caneras wrote: When you say not to do this build on tal darim, do you mean both the 2gate build and the 1gate expand build as well? AFAIK the only way to stay even with zerg on tal'darim is FFE, though I haven't really kept up as much with top level games as I have in the past. | ||
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name_lock
Canada30 Posts
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TrueRedemption
United States313 Posts
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bankai
362 Posts
 The build kinda looks like Huk's blink stalker build (Arcanefrost did a guide on this) but instead using a 2 Gate FE opening and a bit more emphasis on teching up. I tried this build against the AI to get a feel for it and have some questions: 1) Why don't you put down at least a 3rd or 4th gate after you expand? It feels really vulnerable playing off only 2 gates up until the 9min mark. Is it due to better flow of resources? 2) Given its only 2 gateways and a relatively small army by 9:30mins (compared to say a 6 gate +1 timing attack), are you implying that we cant really pressure the zerg up until the 8-9min mark?? 3) One problem i noticed with 3 gate sentry expand is that zerg players know how to scout it better, and feel free to drone up alot. What happens if this 2 gate is scouted? Cant they drone freely up until 8mins and get a massive eco lead? Thanks again and hope these questions make sense! | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
Thanks Time! | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 16 2011 13:27 bankai wrote: Great looking build, thanks for the contribution vVvTime The build kinda looks like Huk's blink stalker build (Arcanefrost did a guide on this) but instead using a 2 Gate FE opening and a bit more emphasis on teching up. I tried this build against the AI to get a feel for it and have some questions: 1) Why don't you put down at least a 3rd or 4th gate after you expand? It feels really vulnerable playing off only 2 gates up until the 9min mark. Is it due to better flow of resources? 2) Given its only 2 gateways and a relatively small army by 9:30mins (compared to say a 6 gate +1 timing attack), are you implying that we cant really pressure the zerg up until the 8-9min mark?? 3) One problem i noticed with 3 gate sentry expand is that zerg players know how to scout it better, and feel free to drone up alot. What happens if this 2 gate is scouted? Cant they drone freely up until 8mins and get a massive eco lead? Thanks again and hope these questions make sense! 1) I don't have the resources to produce out of additional gateways until later, and I feel that I can accomplish all of the early/midgame goals (not dying to all-ins, denying greedy expansions to stay even on economy, etc.) with only 2. 2) Against a zerg who is not trying to take a super greedy third, no, it will not be possible to pressure them before 8 or 9 minutes. OTOH, against certain builds, you can just skip the nexus and 4 gate them since you have quite a lot of chronos used on warpgate anyway. In a BoX series this can throw people off. I find it particularly strong against 11p18h builds, since they will not have gas until at least 6:30 if they use a standard build, but your 4 gate arrives at around 6:00. 3) Not that I am aware of | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On August 17 2011 15:12 vVvTime wrote: 1) I don't have the resources to produce out of additional gateways until later, and I feel that I can accomplish all of the early/midgame goals (not dying to all-ins, denying greedy expansions to stay even on economy, etc.) with only 2. 2) Against a zerg who is not trying to take a super greedy third, no, it will not be possible to pressure them before 8 or 9 minutes. OTOH, against certain builds, you can just skip the nexus and 4 gate them since you have quite a lot of chronos used on warpgate anyway. In a BoX series this can throw people off. I find it particularly strong against 11p18h builds, since they will not have gas until at least 6:30 if they use a standard build, but your 4 gate arrives at around 6:00. 3) Not that I am aware of Great - thanks for the response and once again, a really nice build! | ||
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Legend`
Canada381 Posts
Quick question though, what do you do against early HEAVY ling pressure? I mean the type where they rush speed and get 16+ lings right by your natural ready to surround your army the moment it goes down the ramp - this style is extremely prevalent in high diamond/low masters Korea atm, and he has the lings ready at your ramp @ about 5:15~ before you push down. I've lost a few times now to this heavy early ling pressure (they drone AFTER the lings, not drone before the lings) where I move to clear his "scouting" ling chilling in the expansion just to get runby by 20 lings and instantly lose the game because it's hard to perfectly forcefield surround your army against speedlings with like .5 seconds of reaction. This is especially annoying on maps like Typhon Peaks where your natural is annoyingly far away from your ramp and hard to fast simcity Agh I just realized my question isn't very clear: what do you respond with in the situation that you can't take your expansion at the regular timing due to heavy ling pressure? Sorry if you already have it in your post somewhere but I'm half asleep and might have missed something o,o | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 17 2011 17:24 Legend` wrote: Nice build, seems like it has a lot of potential and I'll probably test it out on korea and see how it fares there. Quick question though, what do you do against early HEAVY ling pressure? I mean the type where they rush speed and get 16+ lings right by your natural ready to surround your army the moment it goes down the ramp - this style is extremely prevalent in high diamond/low masters Korea atm, and he has the lings ready at your ramp @ about 5:15~ before you push down. I've lost a few times now to this heavy early ling pressure (they drone AFTER the lings, not drone before the lings) where I move to clear his "scouting" ling chilling in the expansion just to get runby by 20 lings and instantly lose the game because it's hard to perfectly forcefield surround your army against speedlings with like .5 seconds of reaction. Agh I just realized my question isn't very clear: what do you respond with in the situation that you can't take your expansion at the regular timing due to heavy ling pressure? I guess if I knew they're making a lot of lings I would make forge before nexus. When I do lose it's usually to mass lings and I misplace force fields/have poor simcity, or to really heavy roach aggression after losing a lot of units attacking their 3rd. Once you have the nexus started and a few warpins of sentries it's usually pretty easy to tell whether or not they have a lot of lings. A lot of zergs will just sit and attack a nexus with 4 lings, which is 99% of the time baiting you to come out and flank with 20 more lings. | ||
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Legend`
Canada381 Posts
On August 17 2011 17:27 vVvTime wrote: I guess if I knew they're making a lot of lings I would make forge before nexus. When I do lose it's usually to mass lings and I misplace force fields/have poor simcity, or to really heavy roach aggression after losing a lot of units attacking their 3rd. Once you have the nexus started and a few warpins of sentries it's usually pretty easy to tell whether or not they have a lot of lings. A lot of zergs will just sit and attack a nexus with 4 lings, which is 99% of the time baiting you to come out and flank with 20 more lings. Yeah that seems to be what I see a lot on ladder nowadays too. Lots of zergs are taking advantage of the fact that when people see a hatchery they expect the zerg to drone up before making units, not the opposite, causing you to be not ready against the early ling pressure. Good choice though to see that since they aren't rushing drones theres no need for you to rush the expansion, thanks for the help! Originally I'd usually just do a 4gate expand if I see mass lings while trying to take my expansion (if I haven't already autolost to a ling surround on my first 4-5 units). | ||
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gxclan
United States3 Posts
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CardinalSC
United States145 Posts
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bankai
362 Posts
On August 22 2011 05:49 CardinalSC wrote: When do you add your robo and extra gates? After scouting tech path? I imagine you go Blink Stalkers or Chargelot/HT vs Ling/Infestor play I believe the OP states you get the robo/gates when you move out at the 'standard' 9:30min mark with your army and leaving 2/3cannons back home for defense. Building the robo/gates will vary though depending on what zerg is up to e.g. if they roach/ling all-in at 7:30 then you want to build the gates earlier to fend it off. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:12 bankai wrote: I believe the OP states you get the robo/gates when you move out at the 'standard' 9:30min mark with your army and leaving 2/3cannons back home for defense. Building the robo/gates will vary though depending on what zerg is up to e.g. if they roach/ling all-in at 7:30 then you want to build the gates earlier to fend it off. Yeah, there's not really a specific timing for it. It's basically just as resources permit, which happens to be around 10:00 most games. When I did some games vs a computer just to show the build to someone and practice macro a little, I had enough to start making them at aroud 9:00, but that doesn't account for any delays due to zerg aggression or having to use chronos on WGs, etc. | ||
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Tundra
United Kingdom18 Posts
P.S im Rank 20 Master Toss | ||
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diarsenic
United States385 Posts
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