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On August 13 2011 03:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:46 vVvTime wrote:On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote:
Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds? Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week. Will you have my babies? If mommyship rushing is actually a viable all-in, im the happiest person ever. On a serious note, i have a couple questions after playing a few games with this build: 1) say i scout really late or no third at 9.30, either because he's just bad (yay for diamond ladder) or is doing some funky hydra-ling allin or fast infestor play. At this point i should just not pressure when +1 and blink finish, and kill him off with the colosuss all-in, correct?
Yeah, at that point I would just try to do what I can with blink stalkers as long as infestors aren't out yet (use hallucination to figure that out). Also, additional cannons+gateways at your natural can help against stuff like Destiny's infestor+ling attack, and cannons might be necessary against hydra/ling, though I rarely see that.
2) It seems like you think that nothing without bane bombs can hold your colossus all-in, mostly. Is this the case? In your replays you really rarely take a third, and it seems to work out really well.
That is my experience. I feel that I can 2 base any zerg unless they have baneling bombs or took a relatively early 3rd and managed to make enough roach to defend it.
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Time dispensing knowledge on the strategy forums? Hope is not lost ^^
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wow could you all do as a favor and upload replays fomr the recent patch next time? :D
otherwise thanks and great BO
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On August 13 2011 03:22 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:32 vVvTime wrote:On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote:
Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch. Do you have a replay of you doing that? EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build. I'll watch the replay once I get home (on the bus, posting from fone). The fast third (aroun 5-5:30) is a somewhat newer style of PvZ, inspired by Nestea and Losira (they do it almost all their PvZs). The thing is though, on a map like say Shakuras, you're safe no matter how you open up. But on a wide open natural, 2 cannons isn't going to stop my 20+ speedlings from tearing up your expansion. If I scout 2 gate FE with a 35 expo, it's the same as with any Toss expo. Either put pressure on them, or let them expand and take a fast third. I do both, especially since I'll probably see your attack coming with Xel naga towers and ling pokes.
The fast 3rd is in response to a FFE since there is no chance of pressure until ~8mins, but this build opens up with a traditional gateway. Going for that early of a 3rd vs a 12/13 gateway opening is suicide.
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Awesome guide Time, I remember you talking about your build at mlg with me and I'm glad you put up a guide for it. I'll definitely be going over the build and reps and see how it compliments my playstyle.
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On August 13 2011 05:09 SpaNkinG wrote:
wow could you all do as a favor and upload replays fomr the recent patch next time? :D
otherwise thanks and great BO
Yeah, I'll try to do that once I play more games on the latest patch, I was on vacation/going to MLG over most of the last 3 weeks so I don't have many recent replays atm.
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Cannot wait to watch replays and try this when I get home. Posting here, so I can bookmark in my "posts." Will edit with something constructive.
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On August 13 2011 05:14 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:22 Flonomenalz wrote:On August 13 2011 02:32 vVvTime wrote:On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote:
Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch. Do you have a replay of you doing that? EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build. I'll watch the replay once I get home (on the bus, posting from fone). The fast third (aroun 5-5:30) is a somewhat newer style of PvZ, inspired by Nestea and Losira (they do it almost all their PvZs). The thing is though, on a map like say Shakuras, you're safe no matter how you open up. But on a wide open natural, 2 cannons isn't going to stop my 20+ speedlings from tearing up your expansion. If I scout 2 gate FE with a 35 expo, it's the same as with any Toss expo. Either put pressure on them, or let them expand and take a fast third. I do both, especially since I'll probably see your attack coming with Xel naga towers and ling pokes. The fast 3rd is in response to a FFE since there is no chance of pressure until ~8mins, but this build opens up with a traditional gateway. Going for that early of a 3rd vs a 12/13 gateway opening is suicide.
Ah, you're right. I dunno why I thought you could use it against any other opening... smh.
Thank you for correcting me sir.
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On August 13 2011 04:02 vVvTime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 03:54 Teoita wrote:On August 13 2011 03:46 vVvTime wrote:On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote:
Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds? Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week. Will you have my babies? If mommyship rushing is actually a viable all-in, im the happiest person ever. On a serious note, i have a couple questions after playing a few games with this build: 1) say i scout really late or no third at 9.30, either because he's just bad (yay for diamond ladder) or is doing some funky hydra-ling allin or fast infestor play. At this point i should just not pressure when +1 and blink finish, and kill him off with the colosuss all-in, correct? Yeah, at that point I would just try to do what I can with blink stalkers as long as infestors aren't out yet (use hallucination to figure that out). Also, additional cannons+gateways at your natural can help against stuff like Destiny's infestor+ling attack, and cannons might be necessary against hydra/ling, though I rarely see that. Show nested quote +
2) It seems like you think that nothing without bane bombs can hold your colossus all-in, mostly. Is this the case? In your replays you really rarely take a third, and it seems to work out really well.
That is my experience. I feel that I can 2 base any zerg unless they have baneling bombs or took a relatively early 3rd and managed to make enough roach to defend it.
Hm, I feel like there were some pretty big mistakes though by the zergs u played, esp. in the game vs lowely and the game against the guy who played muta. And it seemed like Slush and Destiny didnt have any experience with this all-in, obviously all-ins are always a lot more powerful when the opponent hasn't dealt with it yet.
That being said I will try out the opening a lot and try to integrate it into my shitty pvz, thanks again for the guide.
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Really well done guide, looking forward to your future ones.
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I like this the look of this build and can't wait to test it out on ladder!
However, I'm really excited to see what Mothership build you've been cooking up :D
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Idk im not getting this build to work. they think im 4 gating an putting tons of pressure
and i cant expo
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Only watched two replays but, in the one the Z made 12~ lings and denied your nat until 6:40. Which is SUPER late. And then you had 2gate+forge. If you 1gate fe'd or just 3gate fe'd you would have been in a much better spot. I think this build just relies on Z being greedy or lazy with early lings and is a cute variation of 1/3 g expo's. It's cute though, and if it works, keep doing it 
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What purpose does this early blink serve? You are on 2 gates when blink finishes so you can't do anything with it.
Why don't you go for a gateway heavy army with DT/HT/Archons instead of the 3 colossi push? It would be much faster and would allow you to be on the map earlier. This build feels so passive because the blink feels useless to me and you tech to colossi directly after getting blink.
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On August 13 2011 10:32 Ravomat wrote:
What purpose does this early blink serve? You are on 2 gates when blink finishes so you can't do anything with it.
Why don't you go for a gateway heavy army with DT/HT/Archons instead of the 3 colossi push? It would be much faster and would allow you to be on the map earlier. This build feels so passive because the blink feels useless to me and you tech to colossi directly after getting blink.
The early blink makes the 7-8 stalkers you'll have a lot more powerful for early pushes against greedy third bases, and it allows you to constantly harass the zerg player throughout the game. You also need the twilight anyway if you want to upgrade quickly.
And yes you can also make HT or archon against certain styles. Against large numbers of roaches I'd much rather have collossi, but archons work perfectly fine against ling/infestor stuff.
Honestly, though, I'm not really sure what you're talking about with allowing you to be out on the map earlier. I'm pretty much out on the map constantly until they have infestors, and 2-3 minutes later I'm pushing them with 120+ food if they're not prepared. I'm not sure how you can be out "faster" with archons, as you won't have enough gas to have more than 2 unless you skip the robo entirely, and collossi with +3 melt zerglings way faster than archons do.
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On August 13 2011 10:23 eatmybunnies wrote:
Idk im not getting this build to work. they think im 4 gating an putting tons of pressure
and i cant expo
Post a replay plz.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
i saw all your replays and i have to say is a good build but i like other ppl say, u rely in the zerg being greedy to make this work, what happens if...
1- Zerg do a timming attack of Roach/Ling taking a 3rd? u only have 2gates. (in Xelnaga u were lucky)
2- Zerg scout your robo and make ling+infestor+corruptor? u rely on 3collosus only
can u post replays Zerg beating u?
edit: u said when the zerg goes for infestor not to attack them and play pasive and expo cuz u will end up losing your units if u attack but u did this only in 1game. the other games u went to attack in two bases.
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On August 13 2011 13:11 EliteReplay wrote:
i saw all your replays and i have to say is a good build but i like other ppl say, u rely in the zerg being greedy to make this work, what happens if...
1- Zerg do a timming attack of Roach/Ling taking a 3rd? u only have 2gates. (in Xelnaga u were lucky)
2- Zerg scout your robo and make ling+infestor+corruptor? u rely on 3collosus only
can u post replays Zerg beating u?
edit: u said when the zerg goes for infestor not to attack them and play pasive and expo cuz u will end up losing your units if u attack but u did this only in 1game. the other games u went to attack in two bases.
1-You should be able to hold roach/ling aggression a lot better than in that game typically, and they will have a hard time defending their third and making drones, so if they have enough to defend their third you can just take your third and be even on economy.
2-That unit composition has no way to actually kill your units, since lings will die incredibly quickly to the collossi and zealots, and they'll only have so many fungals when you push them.
I don't think I ever said not to attack when they go for infestors, only that you should not continue blink stalker harass once they have them.
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While I don't like the opener. I do like the style you've incorporated into your PvZ, using a handful of blink stalkers to stay aggressive while you tech hard to +3 and grab 3 collosus/range for a big timing push. This is neat and not seen very often
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On August 13 2011 16:19 Vlare wrote:While I don't like the opener. I do like the style you've incorporated into your PvZ, using a handful of blink stalkers to stay aggressive while you tech hard to +3 and grab 3 collosus/range for a big timing push. This is neat and not seen very often
I really like the opening for the fast aggression ^^ It seems incredibly effective and I'm going to try it out. But I don't like the rest of the build as it's pretty much an all in :p I rarely saw him getting 3 bases in the replays (maybe one or two games only?). Even so I'll try it out for fun~ This opening is so much more awesome than 3gate expand.
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EPT
