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[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 22:22:27
August 12 2011 07:25 GMT
#1
Intro

+ Show Spoiler +

This is a build I have developed over the last few months, and I think that it is a very solid way to open against zerg. The build has adequate preparation for early aggression of all forms, and has very strong timing attacks which can punish greedy zerg players. I hope to cover the basic build order and are the strongest continuations against various builds the zerg can do.

The build focuses around timings at the 10 and 16 minute marks. At 10 minutes you will have +1 and blink completed with 2 zealot, 5 sentry and 6 stalkers. Using this, or a slightly earlier timing without blink, you can force the zerg to cancel their third base, or at least force a ton of units and fight them cost efficiently.

At 16 minutes you will have 3 collossi with range, +3 weapons, and many gateway units. If the zerg player either took a late third or had their third cancelled, and does not have baneling drops, they will die to a push at this timing. Against armies which include baneling drops, or against a zerg who successfully took an early third base, you should take your own third sometime between 12:00 and 16:00 and continue macroing, eventually getting void rays and/or templar to compliment the collossus/gateway army.

Additionally, the early blink allows you to be very aggressive and harass the zerg until infestors are out.


Build Order

Opening:
+ Show Spoiler +

9 pylon (next to nexus is best for defense against 6/7 pool IMO)
13 gate (I scout after gate. Against early hatch I 1 gate expand, cutting the zealot, though you can block the hatchery with a 9 scout if you prefer that style)
14 assimilator
15 pylon (I have found that saving the third chrono boost until you are sure they are not doing an early pool is safest. Some zergs (e.g. lowely, sheth) will make 6-8 lings from an earlyish pool and it is hard to defend without chronoing the stalker)
18 cyber core
22 pylon (build at ramp to make 1 pylon+1 gateway wall, unless you already walled)
26 assimilator
27 gate
31 pylon (on low ground)
34 nexus
35 forge

From the gateway, build zealot->stalker->sentry->sentry, and use 4 chrono boosts on warp gate research. Warp gate research should complete as the 2nd sentry pops out, then warp in 2 sentries after making the forge on 35.

@ Forge completion 2 cannons

@100 gas hallucinate (chrono boost this unless you are out of sentry energy)
@100 gas +1 attack
@100 gas twilight council (upon completion get blink and chrono boost it)
3rd assimilator and continued stalker production as resources permit


Note: Against a very late gas from zerg, I think it is safe to 1 gate expand, and if you follow the above build order you will fall behind. I will not list a build order for that, but you can find an example in the replays at the end of the guide, or make one up for yourself.

Early Game Scouting+Pressure:
+ Show Spoiler +

When you send your scouting probe, first you should check for early pools so that you can prepare for a 6/7/8 pool or 11/12 pool. After this, you should check for gas timing. If you can keep the probe around to see when they take their extractor, you will know that speed will not finish until 3 minutes after that. Using this, you can send the probe back into their base slightly before that time to make sure everything is normal (taking their expansion, no early roach warren/baneling nest, take a look at their drone count, etc.).

When hallucination finishes, make 2 hallucinated phoenix, and check first for a third base, then their main and natural to see their choice of tech. Here are my responses to a few different choices from the zerg:

Some type of all-in: Laugh at them and let your 2 cannons crush their army. Don't waste force fields, make sure they are placed well. Against lings, don't let them up your ramp, and against roaches, don't let them focus your cannons down.

Against heavy roach aggression, make additional cannons as needed to prevent burrow antics, and make several immortals before adding the robotics bay.

Against nydus/doom drops/random cheesy strategies, use blink micro, add additional gates as necessary. You should be able to see any of this stuff coming with hallucinate.

Early 3rd (i.e. started roughly between 6:00 and 7:00): This is usually defended by just speedlings, though sometimes people with mix banelings if they're doing some highly unorthodox strategy. Against this, chrono +1 and attack ASAP. With good force fields and +1 finishing during your attack, it should be nearly impossible for the zerg to hold their third in this situation.

More Standard 3rd (i.e. started between about 8:00 and 9:00) : Usually this will be defended by roach/ling, though sometimes people try to get away with this 3rd timing while getting fast infestors and using only lings to defend. Begin moving out to attack them at about 9:30 so that +1 and blink will be done by the time you arrive at their 3rd. Use hallucinated phoenix to determine their army size and composition, and go for the kill/cancel if you feel it is possible. Otherwise, take whatever gains you can get and back retreat safely.

In general, if they are defending with roach/ling, you should be able to either force a cancel or kill the hatchery if they started lair tech. Zergs who have not begun a lair, ala losira, will typically have enough roaches to defend.

Delayed 3rd: This is becoming more common, and is seen in builds such as destiny's 2 base infestor into a fast 3rd+4th. Against such fast infestors, do not try to pressure the zerg, as you will lose your whole army and cry.

In any case, you will want to add your robotics facility and 3-4 additional gates as you move out, and in the cases when their third is defended well by roach/ling or mass speedling, take a third as soon as you feel safe.

Don't forget to continue harassing with blink stalkers until they get infestors out!



Midgame:
+ Show Spoiler +

At this point, you will be in one of three situations (assuming no major screwups, in which case you're on your own):

1) They successfully defended an early 3rd base with roach/ling: Play a long macro game, make sure you have void rays and/or templar by the time they have broodlords out

2) They took a late 3rd or had their 3rd cancelled and do not have baneling drops: Get collossus bay, chrono +2 and +3, steamroll them at 16 minute mark with ranged collossi with +3 attack. Make sure you use force fields and blink well during the fight. In particular, do not let roaches get near your collossi, and use force field to minimize their ability to neural your collossi.

If they're kicking it old school and making lots of corruptors, often it is best to either completely ignore them and just kill their ground army, or to force field the ground army and kill the corruptors ASAP. Doing both half-heartedly usually ends in disaster. Also feel free to make more immortals and less collossi in this case.

3) They took a late 3rd or had their 3rd cancelled and do have baneling drops: Play very defensively and play a long macro game. Alternatively, kill them as in 2) if you have godly blink micro against baneling bombs and you think you can take them.


Lategame:
Not going to cover this in any detail. Basically just don't get caught with no voids against broodlords, and feedback is very useful against infestors.

Map Specific Stuff

+ Show Spoiler +

On some maps, such as typhon peaks, it can be difficult to deny a greedy third base from the zerg. It is also difficult for them to deny a greedy third of yours. Take this into account!

Don't do this build on tal'darim. you will fall behind economically, and your attempts to pressure the zerg early will fail miserably.

This build is particularly strong on maps where zergs have a hard time taking a third base. For example, xel'naga and shattered temple. On such maps it is common for zergs to take an oddly placed third base to avoid having rocks get in their way, so watch out for that.


Why are you so scared of baneling drops?
+ Show Spoiler +

They kill all your sentries and then you die. Plus, your army will have a lot of zealots, which are also weak against baneling drops.

Also, it's very difficult to stop banelings from blowing up all of your probes while moving out with your whole army in the midgame, so any attack absolutely must kill the zerg. Often your attack will take out their 3rd and/or 4th base, leaving them crippled, but if you then lose your whole army and only have 20 probes because of baneling drops, you are still dead. See the game against lowely for an example of this (except in that game 2 collossi killed like 5 ultras and 30 lings so I won).


Why 2 cannons?
+ Show Spoiler +

It is difficult to scout roach/ling all-ins in time to react, but 2 cannons provides plenty of strength to hold off any such attack. Also, these cannons at home allow you to be aggressive with your army and not worry as much about counterattacks. Often in my replays you will see me adding an additional cannon in my main to prevent ling runbys from being an issue as well. I very much like this thick style of play against zerg.


Replays

+ Show Spoiler +

On September 10 2011 06:13 whistle wrote:
I downloaded them a while ago... hope this is ok!

1 gate fe vs late gas - http://drop.sc/33286
vs fast third - http://drop.sc/33287
macro game example - http://drop.sc/33288
vs ling bane infestor lowely - http://drop.sc/33289
vs roach ling all-in ipsona - http://drop.sc/33290
vs ling infestor destiny - http://drop.sc/33291
vs ling infestor slush - http://drop.sc/33292
vs muta ling schnieder - http://drop.sc/33293
vs 6 pool with no wall-off - http://drop.sc/33294




EDIT: Added replay against muta/ling
EDIT: Added replay to show how early pool can be dealt with, and what happens if Z takes 3rd really early.
www.infinityseven.net
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 07:33:08
August 12 2011 07:32 GMT
#2
\o/

ship it!!

ot: I haven't ever tried this style but Time has showed me some of the games from the OP and from what I have seen you will no longer QQ about infestors. I especially recommend the game against lowley.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
August 12 2011 07:46 GMT
#3
i really struggle vs ling infestor, glad someone came up with a strong build for it, will watch replays and learn, ty!
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
Ezkaton
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Japan416 Posts
August 12 2011 07:57 GMT
#4
Awesome Guide!!
My PvZ has taken a mad turn for the worse so hopefully this is something that can turn that around lol.
Thanks
Merany
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France890 Posts
August 12 2011 07:59 GMT
#5
I'm struggling so hard at PvZ those days that any new idea is really welcomed! I'll make sure to watch the replays and try it on ladder, thanks for your guide!
lazydino
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada331 Posts
August 12 2011 08:05 GMT
#6
Protoss with so many guides! Loving it!
"I have this moron thing that I do, it's called thinking" - George Carlin
GomJabbar
Profile Joined February 2011
United States161 Posts
August 12 2011 08:11 GMT
#7
I'm watching these replays and I'm really liking what I see so far. What intrigues me the most is the excess of cannons compared to most builds nowadays (non Forge FE obviously). 2 cannons blindly every game, and sticking on 2 gates while teching to blink for such a long time, sure seems counter-intuitive and weak in theory, but looks quite safe and strong in execution. I especially liked the game vs Destiny, as I've rarely seen his infested terran timing attack fail. 3 cannons with a tight choke point seemed good - and you STILL almost lost the nexus O_O (such a strong attack!). Still, the counterpush looked brilliant. He had no neural parasite finished by that time, and against 3 colossus all he could do was lose essentially. And the utility of blink to snipe down infestors is something that needs to be utilized more. I'm trying to flesh it out myself.

All in all great games and cool build. The nexus seems to go down about the same time as 1-gate expand, but you don't have to invest in the stargate for early defense.

Can you speak to why you chronoboost warpgate instead of probes early? I thought conventional wisdom was that you have to chronoboost probes to stay even with Zerg econ that early in the game.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 12 2011 08:11 GMT
#8
Just wondering, is there a reason for delaying the second gas til 26, or do the timings work out more nicely that way?
Porouscloud - NA LoL
ThaTiger
Profile Joined February 2011
Denmark55 Posts
August 12 2011 08:20 GMT
#9
Wow thanks! This is a really solid strat and it can transition into whatever you want.. vVv just got a new fan
chipman
Profile Joined February 2011
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:30:12
August 12 2011 08:23 GMT
#10
This is cool. My own alteration of the standard 3 gate is, if I see a late gas or know the guy won't make a bunch of early speedlings from experience playing him, instead of 2 gate expo/forge with cannons I'll just mass chrono probes and build my 2nd and third gates as part of my wall. I have whatever number of constant sentries built until wg is finished and then once it's finished I get 3 more sentries, followed by 3 stalkers. Because I used my essential 2nd/3rd gates to wall from my ramp to my natural nexus I have money for immediate stalkers in time for the most common of the 2 base earliest roach/ling aggression (7:30). I practiced the more crude version of this with a bit lesser skilled practice partner (admittedly) and got away with a lot more than I would have otherwise.

Important to note this is a triggered reaction from what I scout and I can easily not make this deviation if it's too risky. later gas means I can harass a bit with stalker/zealot while walling off outside due to later speed/roach pressure.

The advantage is you become more threatening than 2 gate forge. Cannon's can't attack. You can still get your forge later, but if you're going to aim for robo eventually you might as well just get an observer later on in case of the ~9:30 roach burrow timings while going towards colossus with +3. You obviously won't want to do this if you see no expansion at the natural trying to go up, or a fastish gas, because nothing's stopping the zerg from making a ton of speedlings and/or roaches and just crushing your 1 gate's worth of production at the base of a ramp.

Forcing normal lings instead of drones is great. At most I'll lose a zealot, but with proper micro my stalker/zealot will be more cost effective than the same cost of normal lings. They usually plop down a spine to be safe, respecting the possibility of more incoming units. And obviously if I can cut a corner and get more done, with less just by changing the build location of my gateways, why not?

Gotta respect that 14 gas play though, where they get extra creep tumors and earlier ling speed because you really just don't know if they're going to flip the switch and make a ton of speedlings/roaches.
Doesn't Afraid of Anything
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
August 12 2011 08:25 GMT
#11
On August 12 2011 17:11 Amui wrote:
Just wondering, is there a reason for delaying the second gas til 26, or do the timings work out more nicely that way?


I'm getting a stalker first out of the gateway, so I need more minerals and less gas than I would have with an earlier assimilator. You could always get the second assimilator early and get a sentry rather than a stalker if you prefer, but I like to have the stalker to deal with early lings more effectively.

On August 12 2011 17:11 GomJabbar wrote:
Can you speak to why you chronoboost warpgate instead of probes early? I thought conventional wisdom was that you have to chronoboost probes to stay even with Zerg econ that early in the game


Chrono boosting warpgate a lot early game allows me to make the nexus and forge more quickly, since I can have just as many units out early on as a 3 gate FE with only 2 gates. Also with 4 chronos warpgate finishes around the same time as my second sentry and the second gateway, so it is very efficient.

I'm not sure what conventional wisdom is, but I don't feel that I fall behind on econ. I guess the earlier nexus keeps you even on econ? In any case, as with just about everything else about the build, you can adjust minor things to whatever you think works best. If you feel safe against early pressure without using chrono boosts on wargate research, go for it.
www.infinityseven.net
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
August 12 2011 08:28 GMT
#12
On August 12 2011 17:23 chipman wrote:
This is cool. My own alteration of the standard 3 gate is, if I see a late gas or know the guy won't make a bunch of early speedlings from experience playing him, instead of 2 gate expo/forge with cannons I'll just mass chrono probes and build my 2nd and third gates as part of my wall. I have whatever number of constant sentries built until wg is finished and then once it's finished I get 3 more sentries, followed by 3 stalkers. Because I used my essential 2nd/3rd gates to wall from my ramp to my natural nexus I have money for immediate stalkers in time for the most common of the 2 base earliest roach/ling aggression (7:30).


Yeah, this is basically what I do against late gas, and it's the way to go IMO. As for 2 cannons not being able to attack, I think the fact that you can completely ignore ling runbys and just continue onward with aggression can sometimes be even better than having an additional 1-2 units.
www.infinityseven.net
chipman
Profile Joined February 2011
United States139 Posts
August 12 2011 08:31 GMT
#13
True. You're going to have to warp in to either deny access to your main or deal with a full runby into your main either way though. They shouldn't, if they're smart, sit there and a move into a sim city with cannons.
Doesn't Afraid of Anything
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
August 12 2011 08:38 GMT
#14
Any specific response to a muta play or upon scouting it do you just plan on doing a standard 6 gate push? Seems by the time a hallu is in their base you're already at twilight with blink and only 2 gates. Would you throw down ~4 more right then and push at standard time, or hunker down with a faster than standard blink and just deny damage while cbing upgrades (I generally go for double forge against muta ling, or any ling based play, without it you just lose mid-late game ino)

Basically I'm just not too sure on if the timings work out the same as a standard 3 gate sentry expo into hallu into 6 gate anti muta or if it works out you know... different...
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 08:42:17
August 12 2011 08:40 GMT
#15
On August 12 2011 16:32 Alejandrisha wrote:
\o/

ship it!!

ot: I haven't ever tried this style but Time has showed me some of the games from the OP and from what I have seen you will no longer QQ about infestors. I especially recommend the game against lowley.


No more qq about infestors....HAVE MY BABIES TIME!
I'll take a look at the replays, this seems really really interesting
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 09:00:46
August 12 2011 08:46 GMT
#16
On August 12 2011 17:38 Lobber wrote:
Any specific response to a muta play or upon scouting it do you just plan on doing a standard 6 gate push? Seems by the time a hallu is in their base you're already at twilight with blink and only 2 gates. Would you throw down ~4 more right then and push at standard time, or hunker down with a faster than standard blink and just deny damage while cbing upgrades (I generally go for double forge against muta ling, or any ling based play, without it you just lose mid-late game ino)

Basically I'm just not too sure on if the timings work out the same as a standard 3 gate sentry expo into hallu into 6 gate anti muta or if it works out you know... different...


Oh, I guess I should have said something about mutas.

Typically my response is to just deny the harass while cbing upgrades and then add a ton of cannons (like 8+ if they're really just massing muta) before I attack. I've only lost against mutas doing this build when they hide a third base and have mined an extra 3000-4000 gas than they should have been able to. If they're going straight into muta without roaches, they'll have to take their 3rd base really late, since they can't defend it with pure ling, and so the 16 minute timing will just completely wreck them, especially since muta are completely worthless in a big engagement.

EDIT: I found a replay against muta/ling. It's kind of sloppy, but basically mutas are just bad in fights, so you just go kill them.
www.infinityseven.net
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
August 12 2011 08:49 GMT
#17
Thanks for this =) will watch the replays and learn your style.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 12 2011 09:07 GMT
#18
Silly question...say i see overlord speed with either phoenix or just finding an ovie somewhere, and know he has a baneling nest. Is it possible to predict in some way the timing for when he gets baneling bombs?
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
August 12 2011 09:12 GMT
#19
On August 12 2011 18:07 Teoita wrote:
Silly question...say i see overlord speed with either phoenix or just finding an ovie somewhere, and know he has a baneling nest. Is it possible to predict in some way the timing for when he gets baneling bombs?


I would just assume he has them if he has overlord speed and a baneling nest.
www.infinityseven.net
Molarrr
Profile Joined January 2011
Denmark70 Posts
August 12 2011 09:24 GMT
#20
Love this build good job dude

Do you think it would be possible to take an early third while you do the push at 10 minutes, or would that get easily countered by a roach push or something like that from them?



Wash your hands kids!
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