This is a build I have developed over the last few months, and I think that it is a very solid way to open against zerg. The build has adequate preparation for early aggression of all forms, and has very strong timing attacks which can punish greedy zerg players. I hope to cover the basic build order and are the strongest continuations against various builds the zerg can do.
The build focuses around timings at the 10 and 16 minute marks. At 10 minutes you will have +1 and blink completed with 2 zealot, 5 sentry and 6 stalkers. Using this, or a slightly earlier timing without blink, you can force the zerg to cancel their third base, or at least force a ton of units and fight them cost efficiently.
At 16 minutes you will have 3 collossi with range, +3 weapons, and many gateway units. If the zerg player either took a late third or had their third cancelled, and does not have baneling drops, they will die to a push at this timing. Against armies which include baneling drops, or against a zerg who successfully took an early third base, you should take your own third sometime between 12:00 and 16:00 and continue macroing, eventually getting void rays and/or templar to compliment the collossus/gateway army.
Additionally, the early blink allows you to be very aggressive and harass the zerg until infestors are out.
9 pylon (next to nexus is best for defense against 6/7 pool IMO) 13 gate (I scout after gate. Against early hatch I 1 gate expand, cutting the zealot, though you can block the hatchery with a 9 scout if you prefer that style) 14 assimilator 15 pylon (I have found that saving the third chrono boost until you are sure they are not doing an early pool is safest. Some zergs (e.g. lowely, sheth) will make 6-8 lings from an earlyish pool and it is hard to defend without chronoing the stalker) 18 cyber core 22 pylon (build at ramp to make 1 pylon+1 gateway wall, unless you already walled) 26 assimilator 27 gate 31 pylon (on low ground) 34 nexus 35 forge
From the gateway, build zealot->stalker->sentry->sentry, and use 4 chrono boosts on warp gate research. Warp gate research should complete as the 2nd sentry pops out, then warp in 2 sentries after making the forge on 35.
@ Forge completion 2 cannons
@100 gas hallucinate (chrono boost this unless you are out of sentry energy) @100 gas +1 attack @100 gas twilight council (upon completion get blink and chrono boost it) 3rd assimilator and continued stalker production as resources permit
Note: Against a very late gas from zerg, I think it is safe to 1 gate expand, and if you follow the above build order you will fall behind. I will not list a build order for that, but you can find an example in the replays at the end of the guide, or make one up for yourself.
When you send your scouting probe, first you should check for early pools so that you can prepare for a 6/7/8 pool or 11/12 pool. After this, you should check for gas timing. If you can keep the probe around to see when they take their extractor, you will know that speed will not finish until 3 minutes after that. Using this, you can send the probe back into their base slightly before that time to make sure everything is normal (taking their expansion, no early roach warren/baneling nest, take a look at their drone count, etc.).
When hallucination finishes, make 2 hallucinated phoenix, and check first for a third base, then their main and natural to see their choice of tech. Here are my responses to a few different choices from the zerg:
Some type of all-in: Laugh at them and let your 2 cannons crush their army. Don't waste force fields, make sure they are placed well. Against lings, don't let them up your ramp, and against roaches, don't let them focus your cannons down.
Against heavy roach aggression, make additional cannons as needed to prevent burrow antics, and make several immortals before adding the robotics bay.
Against nydus/doom drops/random cheesy strategies, use blink micro, add additional gates as necessary. You should be able to see any of this stuff coming with hallucinate.
Early 3rd (i.e. started roughly between 6:00 and 7:00): This is usually defended by just speedlings, though sometimes people with mix banelings if they're doing some highly unorthodox strategy. Against this, chrono +1 and attack ASAP. With good force fields and +1 finishing during your attack, it should be nearly impossible for the zerg to hold their third in this situation.
More Standard 3rd (i.e. started between about 8:00 and 9:00) : Usually this will be defended by roach/ling, though sometimes people try to get away with this 3rd timing while getting fast infestors and using only lings to defend. Begin moving out to attack them at about 9:30 so that +1 and blink will be done by the time you arrive at their 3rd. Use hallucinated phoenix to determine their army size and composition, and go for the kill/cancel if you feel it is possible. Otherwise, take whatever gains you can get and back retreat safely.
In general, if they are defending with roach/ling, you should be able to either force a cancel or kill the hatchery if they started lair tech. Zergs who have not begun a lair, ala losira, will typically have enough roaches to defend.
Delayed 3rd: This is becoming more common, and is seen in builds such as destiny's 2 base infestor into a fast 3rd+4th. Against such fast infestors, do not try to pressure the zerg, as you will lose your whole army and cry.
In any case, you will want to add your robotics facility and 3-4 additional gates as you move out, and in the cases when their third is defended well by roach/ling or mass speedling, take a third as soon as you feel safe.
Don't forget to continue harassing with blink stalkers until they get infestors out!
At this point, you will be in one of three situations (assuming no major screwups, in which case you're on your own):
1) They successfully defended an early 3rd base with roach/ling: Play a long macro game, make sure you have void rays and/or templar by the time they have broodlords out
2) They took a late 3rd or had their 3rd cancelled and do not have baneling drops: Get collossus bay, chrono +2 and +3, steamroll them at 16 minute mark with ranged collossi with +3 attack. Make sure you use force fields and blink well during the fight. In particular, do not let roaches get near your collossi, and use force field to minimize their ability to neural your collossi.
If they're kicking it old school and making lots of corruptors, often it is best to either completely ignore them and just kill their ground army, or to force field the ground army and kill the corruptors ASAP. Doing both half-heartedly usually ends in disaster. Also feel free to make more immortals and less collossi in this case.
3) They took a late 3rd or had their 3rd cancelled and do have baneling drops: Play very defensively and play a long macro game. Alternatively, kill them as in 2) if you have godly blink micro against baneling bombs and you think you can take them.
Lategame: Not going to cover this in any detail. Basically just don't get caught with no voids against broodlords, and feedback is very useful against infestors.
On some maps, such as typhon peaks, it can be difficult to deny a greedy third base from the zerg. It is also difficult for them to deny a greedy third of yours. Take this into account!
Don't do this build on tal'darim. you will fall behind economically, and your attempts to pressure the zerg early will fail miserably.
This build is particularly strong on maps where zergs have a hard time taking a third base. For example, xel'naga and shattered temple. On such maps it is common for zergs to take an oddly placed third base to avoid having rocks get in their way, so watch out for that.
They kill all your sentries and then you die. Plus, your army will have a lot of zealots, which are also weak against baneling drops.
Also, it's very difficult to stop banelings from blowing up all of your probes while moving out with your whole army in the midgame, so any attack absolutely must kill the zerg. Often your attack will take out their 3rd and/or 4th base, leaving them crippled, but if you then lose your whole army and only have 20 probes because of baneling drops, you are still dead. See the game against lowely for an example of this (except in that game 2 collossi killed like 5 ultras and 30 lings so I won).
It is difficult to scout roach/ling all-ins in time to react, but 2 cannons provides plenty of strength to hold off any such attack. Also, these cannons at home allow you to be aggressive with your army and not worry as much about counterattacks. Often in my replays you will see me adding an additional cannon in my main to prevent ling runbys from being an issue as well. I very much like this thick style of play against zerg.
ot: I haven't ever tried this style but Time has showed me some of the games from the OP and from what I have seen you will no longer QQ about infestors. I especially recommend the game against lowley.
I'm struggling so hard at PvZ those days that any new idea is really welcomed! I'll make sure to watch the replays and try it on ladder, thanks for your guide!
I'm watching these replays and I'm really liking what I see so far. What intrigues me the most is the excess of cannons compared to most builds nowadays (non Forge FE obviously). 2 cannons blindly every game, and sticking on 2 gates while teching to blink for such a long time, sure seems counter-intuitive and weak in theory, but looks quite safe and strong in execution. I especially liked the game vs Destiny, as I've rarely seen his infested terran timing attack fail. 3 cannons with a tight choke point seemed good - and you STILL almost lost the nexus O_O (such a strong attack!). Still, the counterpush looked brilliant. He had no neural parasite finished by that time, and against 3 colossus all he could do was lose essentially. And the utility of blink to snipe down infestors is something that needs to be utilized more. I'm trying to flesh it out myself.
All in all great games and cool build. The nexus seems to go down about the same time as 1-gate expand, but you don't have to invest in the stargate for early defense.
Can you speak to why you chronoboost warpgate instead of probes early? I thought conventional wisdom was that you have to chronoboost probes to stay even with Zerg econ that early in the game.
This is cool. My own alteration of the standard 3 gate is, if I see a late gas or know the guy won't make a bunch of early speedlings from experience playing him, instead of 2 gate expo/forge with cannons I'll just mass chrono probes and build my 2nd and third gates as part of my wall. I have whatever number of constant sentries built until wg is finished and then once it's finished I get 3 more sentries, followed by 3 stalkers. Because I used my essential 2nd/3rd gates to wall from my ramp to my natural nexus I have money for immediate stalkers in time for the most common of the 2 base earliest roach/ling aggression (7:30). I practiced the more crude version of this with a bit lesser skilled practice partner (admittedly) and got away with a lot more than I would have otherwise.
Important to note this is a triggered reaction from what I scout and I can easily not make this deviation if it's too risky. later gas means I can harass a bit with stalker/zealot while walling off outside due to later speed/roach pressure.
The advantage is you become more threatening than 2 gate forge. Cannon's can't attack. You can still get your forge later, but if you're going to aim for robo eventually you might as well just get an observer later on in case of the ~9:30 roach burrow timings while going towards colossus with +3. You obviously won't want to do this if you see no expansion at the natural trying to go up, or a fastish gas, because nothing's stopping the zerg from making a ton of speedlings and/or roaches and just crushing your 1 gate's worth of production at the base of a ramp.
Forcing normal lings instead of drones is great. At most I'll lose a zealot, but with proper micro my stalker/zealot will be more cost effective than the same cost of normal lings. They usually plop down a spine to be safe, respecting the possibility of more incoming units. And obviously if I can cut a corner and get more done, with less just by changing the build location of my gateways, why not?
Gotta respect that 14 gas play though, where they get extra creep tumors and earlier ling speed because you really just don't know if they're going to flip the switch and make a ton of speedlings/roaches.
On August 12 2011 17:11 Amui wrote: Just wondering, is there a reason for delaying the second gas til 26, or do the timings work out more nicely that way?
I'm getting a stalker first out of the gateway, so I need more minerals and less gas than I would have with an earlier assimilator. You could always get the second assimilator early and get a sentry rather than a stalker if you prefer, but I like to have the stalker to deal with early lings more effectively.
On August 12 2011 17:11 GomJabbar wrote: Can you speak to why you chronoboost warpgate instead of probes early? I thought conventional wisdom was that you have to chronoboost probes to stay even with Zerg econ that early in the game
Chrono boosting warpgate a lot early game allows me to make the nexus and forge more quickly, since I can have just as many units out early on as a 3 gate FE with only 2 gates. Also with 4 chronos warpgate finishes around the same time as my second sentry and the second gateway, so it is very efficient.
I'm not sure what conventional wisdom is, but I don't feel that I fall behind on econ. I guess the earlier nexus keeps you even on econ? In any case, as with just about everything else about the build, you can adjust minor things to whatever you think works best. If you feel safe against early pressure without using chrono boosts on wargate research, go for it.
On August 12 2011 17:23 chipman wrote: This is cool. My own alteration of the standard 3 gate is, if I see a late gas or know the guy won't make a bunch of early speedlings from experience playing him, instead of 2 gate expo/forge with cannons I'll just mass chrono probes and build my 2nd and third gates as part of my wall. I have whatever number of constant sentries built until wg is finished and then once it's finished I get 3 more sentries, followed by 3 stalkers. Because I used my essential 2nd/3rd gates to wall from my ramp to my natural nexus I have money for immediate stalkers in time for the most common of the 2 base earliest roach/ling aggression (7:30).
Yeah, this is basically what I do against late gas, and it's the way to go IMO. As for 2 cannons not being able to attack, I think the fact that you can completely ignore ling runbys and just continue onward with aggression can sometimes be even better than having an additional 1-2 units.
True. You're going to have to warp in to either deny access to your main or deal with a full runby into your main either way though. They shouldn't, if they're smart, sit there and a move into a sim city with cannons.
Any specific response to a muta play or upon scouting it do you just plan on doing a standard 6 gate push? Seems by the time a hallu is in their base you're already at twilight with blink and only 2 gates. Would you throw down ~4 more right then and push at standard time, or hunker down with a faster than standard blink and just deny damage while cbing upgrades (I generally go for double forge against muta ling, or any ling based play, without it you just lose mid-late game ino)
Basically I'm just not too sure on if the timings work out the same as a standard 3 gate sentry expo into hallu into 6 gate anti muta or if it works out you know... different...
ot: I haven't ever tried this style but Time has showed me some of the games from the OP and from what I have seen you will no longer QQ about infestors. I especially recommend the game against lowley.
No more qq about infestors....HAVE MY BABIES TIME! I'll take a look at the replays, this seems really really interesting
On August 12 2011 17:38 Lobber wrote: Any specific response to a muta play or upon scouting it do you just plan on doing a standard 6 gate push? Seems by the time a hallu is in their base you're already at twilight with blink and only 2 gates. Would you throw down ~4 more right then and push at standard time, or hunker down with a faster than standard blink and just deny damage while cbing upgrades (I generally go for double forge against muta ling, or any ling based play, without it you just lose mid-late game ino)
Basically I'm just not too sure on if the timings work out the same as a standard 3 gate sentry expo into hallu into 6 gate anti muta or if it works out you know... different...
Oh, I guess I should have said something about mutas.
Typically my response is to just deny the harass while cbing upgrades and then add a ton of cannons (like 8+ if they're really just massing muta) before I attack. I've only lost against mutas doing this build when they hide a third base and have mined an extra 3000-4000 gas than they should have been able to. If they're going straight into muta without roaches, they'll have to take their 3rd base really late, since they can't defend it with pure ling, and so the 16 minute timing will just completely wreck them, especially since muta are completely worthless in a big engagement.
EDIT: I found a replay against muta/ling. It's kind of sloppy, but basically mutas are just bad in fights, so you just go kill them.
Silly question...say i see overlord speed with either phoenix or just finding an ovie somewhere, and know he has a baneling nest. Is it possible to predict in some way the timing for when he gets baneling bombs?
On August 12 2011 18:07 Teoita wrote: Silly question...say i see overlord speed with either phoenix or just finding an ovie somewhere, and know he has a baneling nest. Is it possible to predict in some way the timing for when he gets baneling bombs?
I would just assume he has them if he has overlord speed and a baneling nest.
Do you think it would be possible to take an early third while you do the push at 10 minutes, or would that get easily countered by a roach push or something like that from them?
baneling bombs are always scary, even more scary once the zerg's on +2 melee. Fortunately it takes time to get +2, banelings, drops/speed, and getting a expand utility unit like infestor/muta, less so for heavy roach or mass ling, if they get away with it.
Interesting build, but I'm trying to find the differences using this build over a normal 3 Gate FE:
- If you haven't been denied of expansion (early lings or w/e), you'll put it around the same time (only a few SC seconds in the good scenario). - Your worker count is the same in 3GFE (34 by the 8 minute mark). - Both have hallucination done by the 8 minute mark. - Weapon +1 is on both around 30% done. - You have less units (Namely sentries).
The only advantage I find in this build is the fact that you get blink pretty fast. Of course this build continues on to the mid game, and that differs from 3GFE BO, but I have a feeling I can achieve these exact same goals with 3GFE, which seems safer, and the unit count is higher over there.
I would like to hear comments on my post, since I might be wrong and I want to stand corrected if I do. I would love to hear your opinion as why is this better than 3GFE.
On August 12 2011 19:08 SneakAttack wrote: Interesting build, but I'm trying to find the differences using this build over a normal 3 Gate FE:
- If you haven't been denied of expansion (early lings or w/e), you'll put it around the same time (only a few SC seconds in the good scenario). - Your worker count is the same in 3GFE (34 by the 8 minute mark). - Both have hallucination done by the 8 minute mark. - Weapon +1 is on both around 30% done. - You have less units (Namely sentries).
The only advantage I find in this build is the fact that you get blink pretty fast. Of course this build continues on to the mid game, and that differs from 3GFE BO, but I have a feeling I can achieve these exact same goals with 3GFE, which seems safer, and the unit count is higher over there.
I would like to hear comments on my post, since I might be wrong and I want to stand corrected if I do. I would love to hear your opinion as why is this better than 3GFE.
By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does.
On August 12 2011 19:18 Teoita wrote: By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does.
Slightly as in 10 seconds in the case of 2 gate? not worth it. You can make the same SimCity if you choose to do so with a 3GFE, also, I'm not forced into a 4th gateway before teching, where did you get that from? Nothing keeps me from throwing extra cannons like Time does.
On August 12 2011 19:18 Teoita wrote: By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does.
Slightly as in 10 seconds in the case of 2 gate? not worth it. You can make the same SimCity if you choose to do so with a 3GFE, also, I'm not forced into a 4th gateway before teching, where did you get that from? Nothing keeps me from throwing extra cannons like Time does.
These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling. Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well. Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds). But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice
On August 12 2011 19:48 Teoita wrote: These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling. Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well. Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds). But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice
In most of the replays the simcity isnt that good, the cannons are vulnerable, so I wouldnt say this build has a good simcity in it. I can make the same "2 cannon block" with a standard 3GFE and a forge at the bottom of my ramp.
The strong part of 3GFE is that you can get a lot of sentries, that gives u the option to lay a tons of force fields in later game. here you get a smaller amount of sentries, whose odds to get demolished are very high since this is an aggressive build.
On August 12 2011 19:48 Teoita wrote: These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling. Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well. Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds). But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice
In most of the replays the simcity isnt that good, the cannons are vulnerable, so I wouldnt say this build has a good simcity in it. I can make the same "2 cannon block" with a standard 3GFE and a forge at the bottom of my ramp.
The strong part of 3GFE is that you can get a lot of sentries, that gives u the option to lay a tons of force fields in later game. here you get a smaller amount of sentries, whose odds to get demolished are very high since this is an aggressive build.
The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway.
On August 12 2011 20:02 Teoita wrote: The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway.
I'm not pointing out why there is a low sentry count, I'm just stating a fact, that there is a low sentry count. vVvTime shows pretty good units control in his engagements (And great macroing behind these attacks), I'm not sure players of lower skill levels will be able to make this build as effective.
On August 12 2011 20:02 Teoita wrote: The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway.
I'm not pointing out why there is a low sentry count, I'm just stating a fact, that there is a low sentry count. vVvTime shows pretty good units control in his engagements (And great macroing behind these attacks), I'm not sure players of lower skill levels will be able to make this build as effective.
Yeah but that has nothing to do with discussing about 1-2 gate and 3 gate fe, which was your original point. It's absolutely realistic to have very similar if not identical unit counts with 2 gates vs 3 in the early game, see this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225509
On August 12 2011 21:43 FederigoEU wrote: I still die to infestors with this opening , , i deny his thrid when the Z plays Destiny Style , but after that it goes downwars .
Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :>
I've not seen many protoss players get into that, but when I see it, it's mostly successful: archons.
The only thing that a ling/infestor-player can do vs archons is neural parasite....and if he does "that" then he can't possibly cast chain-fungals. Also you should always have some random HTs nearby for the occasional feedback.
Even though they technicly can be fungalled, they have way too many shields for fungal to be cost-efficient vs them. And they splish/splash lings like no other unit. The biggest advantage is, that archons can be reinforced rather quickly, you don't have to worry about robotics production time, which is a real problem with a colossus-centred approach.
I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg.
I just dont see why you would 1-2-3 gate expo and not forge fe.
Yea, 2-3 ht's to feedback and archons with zealots for mineral dump and support seems to work best for me against Zerg. Also make sure to get attack upgrades up.
Much protoss innovation is coming right outta the zerg playbook these days and I love it. The Mass-gateway style allowing for a protoss '300 food push' was great and makes strong use of the warp gate mechanic... and now this build simulating generous spine placement. It's a really great solution to increase home defense and allow protoss aggression to stay on course once it's out.
This should also stop small squad attack damage from zerg. In short... can't wait to start using this build! I'm struggling hard with PvZ right now, and this looks like just the thing.
VERY well written guide, as a zerg player i can tell you just the going stalker before sentry but yet playing "standard" can definitely throw you off, combined with the late 2nd gas it could easily get the zerg reading 4 gate.
On August 13 2011 00:23 eatmybunnies wrote: I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg.
I just dont see why you would 1-2-3 gate expo and not forge fe.
Interesting opening, coolest part is the early Blink. Looks like you get a slightly earlier Nexus and trade a Gateway. I think it would be more robust if you got more Gates, but then just didn't make units out of them, that way you have the potential to use your infrastructure if need be. This allows you to also cut an earlier cannon, and make it later on when you don't need the minerals so much (just before you Blink out, for example).
If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count.
What i like about this Guide is the fact that he explain when or not attack a zerg, and what to do in all the cases. if the other guides explain things like that would be better
Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
On August 13 2011 01:28 CecilSunkure wrote: Interesting opening, coolest part is the early Blink. Looks like you get a slightly earlier Nexus and trade a Gateway. I think it would be more robust if you got more Gates, but then just didn't make units out of them, that way you have the potential to use your infrastructure if need be. This allows you to also cut an earlier cannon, and make it later on when you don't need the minerals so much (just before you Blink out, for example).
If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count.
I like MCs build but sometimes I'm unsure of what to do with the stargate after building the first void ray... is it ok to just build nothing out of it after the first void ray and go for sth like blink +gates asap instead or should I always use the stargate and keep building phoenixes?
On August 13 2011 01:28 CecilSunkure wrote: Interesting opening, coolest part is the early Blink. Looks like you get a slightly earlier Nexus and trade a Gateway. I think it would be more robust if you got more Gates, but then just didn't make units out of them, that way you have the potential to use your infrastructure if need be. This allows you to also cut an earlier cannon, and make it later on when you don't need the minerals so much (just before you Blink out, for example).
If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count.
I like MCs build but sometimes I'm unsure of what to do with the stargate after building the first void ray... is it ok to just build nothing out of it after the first void ray and go for sth like blink +gates asap instead or should I always use the stargate and keep building phoenixes?
Not sure if this should be discussed in Time's topic, but I suppose it's relevant since you can get a Stargate with Time's opening instead of Blink. The first voidray should be used to clear Xel'Nagas, pressure new hatcheries, basically it's a form of map presence. The Phoenix are good after the Voidray (since the Voidray can shoot without using energy) because they have better burst power, as in can kill 5 drones really fast then run away very fast. They are also very useful mid-game in defending attacks. But you can cut the phoenix and do something else, because if you get Phoenix and don't know how to use them, you're better off spending that money elsewhere.
One thing that annoys me is that it seems like as soon as he infestors I cant do anything with them cause fungal will just kill them all. Although I could still use them much much better than I do atm while infestors arent out yet. appreciate your comments as always
As for 3 gate expand vs 2 gate expand, I get a slightly faster nexus/forge, and I feel completely safe against early aggression. Without cutting probes or delaying my tech, I cannot afford to use a third gateway whatsoever, so I don't see the point in making a third gate.
On August 12 2011 21:09 Anfi wrote: Not entirely certain as to why this build is bad on tal'darim. Is it just the distance?
Yes, mostly.
On August 12 2011 21:43 FederigoEU wrote: I still die to infestors with this opening , , i deny his thrid when the Z plays Destiny Style , but after that it goes downwars .
Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :>
Plz watch replays first and/or post a replay of yours and I'll take a look at it when I get the chance.
On August 13 2011 00:23 eatmybunnies wrote: I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg.
I do not need forge against 6 pool, since you can easily hold it off using probes to help when your pylon+gate are near your nexus.
With forge FE, you have far worse scouting, since your sentries come out a lot later and you will not be able to utilize hallucinate early game.
It's a completely different style of play, opening forge FE vs 1/2/3 gate FE, but I'm sure you can take similar midgame strategies and use them from a forge FE if you worked on it.
On August 13 2011 01:28 CecilSunkure wrote: Interesting opening, coolest part is the early Blink. Looks like you get a slightly earlier Nexus and trade a Gateway. I think it would be more robust if you got more Gates, but then just didn't make units out of them, that way you have the potential to use your infrastructure if need be. This allows you to also cut an earlier cannon, and make it later on when you don't need the minerals so much (just before you Blink out, for example).
If I wanted an earlier Nexus I'd rather copy oGsMC's 1 Gate FE, as it's honestly a more robust and flexible opening due to the earlier Nexus and higher Gate count.
I'll look into learning oGsMC's 1 gate FE. Currently I only 1 gate FE against really late gas, but my teammate alej has told me that you can be safe doing that even against more aggressive openings. I have tried 1 gate FE variants in the past, but I struggled against players like slush, lowely, and random ladder zergs who play very aggressively and pump lings at weird timings.
EDIT: About MC's 1 gate FE, does it rely on the void ray to defend against roach/ling aggression, or could I still get blink as quickly? I am not a huge fan of opening stargate on maps where the third is at any reasonable distance from the zerg's natural, since they can shut it down completely with spores/queens and drone to like 80.
On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote: Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch.
Do you have a replay of you doing that?
EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build.
On August 13 2011 02:20 vVvTime wrote:EDIT: About MC's 1 gate FE, does it rely on the void ray to defend against roach/ling aggression, or could I still get blink as quickly? I am not a huge fan of opening stargate on maps where the third is at any reasonable distance from the zerg's natural, since they can shut it down completely with spores/queens and drone to like 80.
It's my understanding that he prefers the Stargate since he can use it to see everything anytime, and constantly look over the attack paths of the Zerg. But I don't see a reason why you can't just go for Blink. MC even gets 3+ Gates and just doesn't use them if he sees the Zerg playing passive. I'd imagine you'd get 5 Gates + Twilight, so the defense sounds to me to be a comparison between 5 Gates and 3 Gates + Stargate.
Though I think it's pretty important to note that you use your Gates with the MC style expand to wall the Natural. I'd imagine if a lot of lings were pumped at a strange time you'd place those Gates at the natural, while chronoing things out of your single Gateway. Then take the Nexus when you've pressed the lings away. At least that's what I've tried to do. It will delay your Nexus a little bit because the Gates are likely to be delayed, but hey he just made a bunch of lings so he's delayed as well.
Hmmm I dont know if its possible to defend roach ling all in without the stargate. I have idra vs MC on typhon peaks loaded up right now. MC has 5 sentries 3 zealots to defend against 8 roaches and 33 lings. One void ray is building, about 60% complete and he has all 3 gateways ready BUT at first he only has the money to warp in 1 stalker. So I dont think you could make the use out of 5 gateways. even if you did you would only have about 2 units more at the time the attack hits.
pure Ling all ins on the other hand arent that hard in my experience since the wall off comes really early and wall off + force fields can beat infinity lings I guess.
Oh and I saw the replays vs lowely vs slush so far, what I dont like is how all in it is. against slush you didnt even break down any of the rocks on xel naga to make Z think you might expand. For an all in its certainly strong though. I'll watch the rest of the replays now.
On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote: Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch.
Do you have a replay of you doing that?
EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build.
I'll watch the replay once I get home (on the bus, posting from fone). The fast third (aroun 5-5:30) is a somewhat newer style of PvZ, inspired by Nestea and Losira (they do it almost all their PvZs). The thing is though, on a map like say Shakuras, you're safe no matter how you open up. But on a wide open natural, 2 cannons isn't going to stop my 20+ speedlings from tearing up your expansion. If I scout 2 gate FE with a 35 expo, it's the same as with any Toss expo. Either put pressure on them, or let them expand and take a fast third. I do both, especially since I'll probably see your attack coming with Xel naga towers and ling pokes.
Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds?
hmm seems interesting Time, i normally never copy strat's from here but this sounds solid , safe and you still have enough to pressure your oponent! thanks mate
On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote: Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds?
I have a 2 gate FE against PvT as well (currently with many sentries to deal with reactor+tech lab 2 rax), but I have a blink expand build in PvT that I'll write up after I play a lot more games with it and get the timings+responses down.
Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week.
On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote: Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds?
Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week.
Will you have my babies? If mommyship rushing is actually a viable all-in, im the happiest person ever.
On a serious note, i have a couple questions after playing a few games with this build: 1) say i scout really late or no third at 9.30, either because he's just bad (yay for diamond ladder) or is doing some funky hydra-ling allin or fast infestor play. At this point i should just not pressure when +1 and blink finish, and kill him off with the colosuss all-in, correct? 2) It seems like you think that nothing without bane bombs can hold your colossus all-in, mostly. Is this the case? In your replays you really rarely take a third, and it seems to work out really well.
On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote: Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds?
Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week.
Will you have my babies? If mommyship rushing is actually a viable all-in, im the happiest person ever.
On a serious note, i have a couple questions after playing a few games with this build: 1) say i scout really late or no third at 9.30, either because he's just bad (yay for diamond ladder) or is doing some funky hydra-ling allin or fast infestor play. At this point i should just not pressure when +1 and blink finish, and kill him off with the colosuss all-in, correct?
Yeah, at that point I would just try to do what I can with blink stalkers as long as infestors aren't out yet (use hallucination to figure that out). Also, additional cannons+gateways at your natural can help against stuff like Destiny's infestor+ling attack, and cannons might be necessary against hydra/ling, though I rarely see that.
2) It seems like you think that nothing without bane bombs can hold your colossus all-in, mostly. Is this the case? In your replays you really rarely take a third, and it seems to work out really well.
That is my experience. I feel that I can 2 base any zerg unless they have baneling bombs or took a relatively early 3rd and managed to make enough roach to defend it.
On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote: Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch.
Do you have a replay of you doing that?
EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build.
I'll watch the replay once I get home (on the bus, posting from fone). The fast third (aroun 5-5:30) is a somewhat newer style of PvZ, inspired by Nestea and Losira (they do it almost all their PvZs). The thing is though, on a map like say Shakuras, you're safe no matter how you open up. But on a wide open natural, 2 cannons isn't going to stop my 20+ speedlings from tearing up your expansion. If I scout 2 gate FE with a 35 expo, it's the same as with any Toss expo. Either put pressure on them, or let them expand and take a fast third. I do both, especially since I'll probably see your attack coming with Xel naga towers and ling pokes.
The fast 3rd is in response to a FFE since there is no chance of pressure until ~8mins, but this build opens up with a traditional gateway. Going for that early of a 3rd vs a 12/13 gateway opening is suicide.
Awesome guide Time, I remember you talking about your build at mlg with me and I'm glad you put up a guide for it. I'll definitely be going over the build and reps and see how it compliments my playstyle.
On August 13 2011 05:09 SpaNkinG wrote: wow could you all do as a favor and upload replays fomr the recent patch next time? :D otherwise thanks and great BO
Yeah, I'll try to do that once I play more games on the latest patch, I was on vacation/going to MLG over most of the last 3 weeks so I don't have many recent replays atm.
On August 13 2011 01:52 Flonomenalz wrote: Umm I have a question. Now if I were to scout a 2 gate FE, I would get a really fast third (around 5:20). You said that fast thirds are usually defended with just speedlings, which is true. But if you come attack me, how do you stop me from simply doing a runby and killing/preventing your expansion? You won't have enough units to defend if you do attack me, so it's either you save your nexus, or you kill my third, by which time i would spine up my natural, and it's 1 base vs 2 base.
Then again, it's all dependant on scouting, if I'm able to scout your 2 gate FE and if I'm able to scout your attack coming... I really like this build. Punishes my greed =(
I've never seen a third get thrown down at 5:20, the earliest I've seen is about 6:20. Anyway, with a hatchery at 5:20 it won't finish until 7:00, at which point I will have 2 cannons very soon, and can push out with 2 zealots 5 sentries and a stalker if my scouting probe saw your super early hatch.
Do you have a replay of you doing that?
EDIT: I added a replay dealing with a similar build.
I'll watch the replay once I get home (on the bus, posting from fone). The fast third (aroun 5-5:30) is a somewhat newer style of PvZ, inspired by Nestea and Losira (they do it almost all their PvZs). The thing is though, on a map like say Shakuras, you're safe no matter how you open up. But on a wide open natural, 2 cannons isn't going to stop my 20+ speedlings from tearing up your expansion. If I scout 2 gate FE with a 35 expo, it's the same as with any Toss expo. Either put pressure on them, or let them expand and take a fast third. I do both, especially since I'll probably see your attack coming with Xel naga towers and ling pokes.
The fast 3rd is in response to a FFE since there is no chance of pressure until ~8mins, but this build opens up with a traditional gateway. Going for that early of a 3rd vs a 12/13 gateway opening is suicide.
Ah, you're right. I dunno why I thought you could use it against any other opening... smh.
On August 13 2011 03:42 SeaSwift wrote: Very interesting build, will take a look at it and make my own conclusions.
vVvTime, I now use your PvP 1gate Robo into Blink (like in your VOD vs Katari) and hopefully your PvZ 2gate expand. Do you have any preferred PvT builds?
Also I'm gonna write a mothership rush PvZ guide later this week.
Will you have my babies? If mommyship rushing is actually a viable all-in, im the happiest person ever.
On a serious note, i have a couple questions after playing a few games with this build: 1) say i scout really late or no third at 9.30, either because he's just bad (yay for diamond ladder) or is doing some funky hydra-ling allin or fast infestor play. At this point i should just not pressure when +1 and blink finish, and kill him off with the colosuss all-in, correct?
Yeah, at that point I would just try to do what I can with blink stalkers as long as infestors aren't out yet (use hallucination to figure that out). Also, additional cannons+gateways at your natural can help against stuff like Destiny's infestor+ling attack, and cannons might be necessary against hydra/ling, though I rarely see that.
2) It seems like you think that nothing without bane bombs can hold your colossus all-in, mostly. Is this the case? In your replays you really rarely take a third, and it seems to work out really well.
That is my experience. I feel that I can 2 base any zerg unless they have baneling bombs or took a relatively early 3rd and managed to make enough roach to defend it.
Hm, I feel like there were some pretty big mistakes though by the zergs u played, esp. in the game vs lowely and the game against the guy who played muta. And it seemed like Slush and Destiny didnt have any experience with this all-in, obviously all-ins are always a lot more powerful when the opponent hasn't dealt with it yet. That being said I will try out the opening a lot and try to integrate it into my shitty pvz, thanks again for the guide.
Only watched two replays but, in the one the Z made 12~ lings and denied your nat until 6:40. Which is SUPER late. And then you had 2gate+forge. If you 1gate fe'd or just 3gate fe'd you would have been in a much better spot. I think this build just relies on Z being greedy or lazy with early lings and is a cute variation of 1/3 g expo's. It's cute though, and if it works, keep doing it
What purpose does this early blink serve? You are on 2 gates when blink finishes so you can't do anything with it.
Why don't you go for a gateway heavy army with DT/HT/Archons instead of the 3 colossi push? It would be much faster and would allow you to be on the map earlier. This build feels so passive because the blink feels useless to me and you tech to colossi directly after getting blink.
On August 13 2011 10:32 Ravomat wrote: What purpose does this early blink serve? You are on 2 gates when blink finishes so you can't do anything with it.
Why don't you go for a gateway heavy army with DT/HT/Archons instead of the 3 colossi push? It would be much faster and would allow you to be on the map earlier. This build feels so passive because the blink feels useless to me and you tech to colossi directly after getting blink.
The early blink makes the 7-8 stalkers you'll have a lot more powerful for early pushes against greedy third bases, and it allows you to constantly harass the zerg player throughout the game. You also need the twilight anyway if you want to upgrade quickly.
And yes you can also make HT or archon against certain styles. Against large numbers of roaches I'd much rather have collossi, but archons work perfectly fine against ling/infestor stuff.
Honestly, though, I'm not really sure what you're talking about with allowing you to be out on the map earlier. I'm pretty much out on the map constantly until they have infestors, and 2-3 minutes later I'm pushing them with 120+ food if they're not prepared. I'm not sure how you can be out "faster" with archons, as you won't have enough gas to have more than 2 unless you skip the robo entirely, and collossi with +3 melt zerglings way faster than archons do.
i saw all your replays and i have to say is a good build but i like other ppl say, u rely in the zerg being greedy to make this work, what happens if...
1- Zerg do a timming attack of Roach/Ling taking a 3rd? u only have 2gates. (in Xelnaga u were lucky) 2- Zerg scout your robo and make ling+infestor+corruptor? u rely on 3collosus only
can u post replays Zerg beating u?
edit: u said when the zerg goes for infestor not to attack them and play pasive and expo cuz u will end up losing your units if u attack but u did this only in 1game. the other games u went to attack in two bases.
On August 13 2011 13:11 EliteReplay wrote: i saw all your replays and i have to say is a good build but i like other ppl say, u rely in the zerg being greedy to make this work, what happens if...
1- Zerg do a timming attack of Roach/Ling taking a 3rd? u only have 2gates. (in Xelnaga u were lucky) 2- Zerg scout your robo and make ling+infestor+corruptor? u rely on 3collosus only
can u post replays Zerg beating u?
edit: u said when the zerg goes for infestor not to attack them and play pasive and expo cuz u will end up losing your units if u attack but u did this only in 1game. the other games u went to attack in two bases.
1-You should be able to hold roach/ling aggression a lot better than in that game typically, and they will have a hard time defending their third and making drones, so if they have enough to defend their third you can just take your third and be even on economy.
2-That unit composition has no way to actually kill your units, since lings will die incredibly quickly to the collossi and zealots, and they'll only have so many fungals when you push them.
I don't think I ever said not to attack when they go for infestors, only that you should not continue blink stalker harass once they have them.
While I don't like the opener. I do like the style you've incorporated into your PvZ, using a handful of blink stalkers to stay aggressive while you tech hard to +3 and grab 3 collosus/range for a big timing push. This is neat and not seen very often
On August 13 2011 16:19 Vlare wrote: While I don't like the opener. I do like the style you've incorporated into your PvZ, using a handful of blink stalkers to stay aggressive while you tech hard to +3 and grab 3 collosus/range for a big timing push. This is neat and not seen very often
I really like the opening for the fast aggression ^^ It seems incredibly effective and I'm going to try it out. But I don't like the rest of the build as it's pretty much an all in :p I rarely saw him getting 3 bases in the replays (maybe one or two games only?). Even so I'll try it out for fun~ This opening is so much more awesome than 3gate expand.
Time I have a question: I torn about the 10 minute attack. It seems very small and a Zerg can reinforce quickly and just take it out. What are the triggers to do/not to do this attack, what is the goal of this attack and how to do decent damage without simply dying?
On August 14 2011 02:10 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Time I have a question: I torn about the 10 minute attack. It seems very small and a Zerg can reinforce quickly and just take it out. What are the triggers to do/not to do this attack, what is the goal of this attack and how to do decent damage without simply dying?
This is explained in the early game pressure+scouting section. As for knowing when their army is too big for you to try to cancel their 3rd, I don't think there is any replacement for experience.
ok played some games today trying it out, I really like it! Still making tons of mistakes but I'm getting there. Theres a lot of possibilities for variation in this build, like I agree that u dont have to go for blink, if you want you can use the 150 gas for something else. Imo the early +2 +3 attack already makes the twilight council worth it.
On August 14 2011 15:16 caneras wrote: When you say not to do this build on tal darim, do you mean both the 2gate build and the 1gate expand build as well?
AFAIK the only way to stay even with zerg on tal'darim is FFE, though I haven't really kept up as much with top level games as I have in the past.
~700 masters toss, I usually 1gate fe so my build is slightly different than yours but I found your early game scouting/pressure to be really helpful. Thanks!
Great looking build, thanks for the contribution vVvTime
The build kinda looks like Huk's blink stalker build (Arcanefrost did a guide on this) but instead using a 2 Gate FE opening and a bit more emphasis on teching up.
I tried this build against the AI to get a feel for it and have some questions: 1) Why don't you put down at least a 3rd or 4th gate after you expand? It feels really vulnerable playing off only 2 gates up until the 9min mark. Is it due to better flow of resources? 2) Given its only 2 gateways and a relatively small army by 9:30mins (compared to say a 6 gate +1 timing attack), are you implying that we cant really pressure the zerg up until the 8-9min mark?? 3) One problem i noticed with 3 gate sentry expand is that zerg players know how to scout it better, and feel free to drone up alot. What happens if this 2 gate is scouted? Cant they drone freely up until 8mins and get a massive eco lead?
On August 16 2011 13:27 bankai wrote: Great looking build, thanks for the contribution vVvTime
The build kinda looks like Huk's blink stalker build (Arcanefrost did a guide on this) but instead using a 2 Gate FE opening and a bit more emphasis on teching up.
I tried this build against the AI to get a feel for it and have some questions: 1) Why don't you put down at least a 3rd or 4th gate after you expand? It feels really vulnerable playing off only 2 gates up until the 9min mark. Is it due to better flow of resources? 2) Given its only 2 gateways and a relatively small army by 9:30mins (compared to say a 6 gate +1 timing attack), are you implying that we cant really pressure the zerg up until the 8-9min mark?? 3) One problem i noticed with 3 gate sentry expand is that zerg players know how to scout it better, and feel free to drone up alot. What happens if this 2 gate is scouted? Cant they drone freely up until 8mins and get a massive eco lead?
Thanks again and hope these questions make sense!
1) I don't have the resources to produce out of additional gateways until later, and I feel that I can accomplish all of the early/midgame goals (not dying to all-ins, denying greedy expansions to stay even on economy, etc.) with only 2.
2) Against a zerg who is not trying to take a super greedy third, no, it will not be possible to pressure them before 8 or 9 minutes. OTOH, against certain builds, you can just skip the nexus and 4 gate them since you have quite a lot of chronos used on warpgate anyway. In a BoX series this can throw people off. I find it particularly strong against 11p18h builds, since they will not have gas until at least 6:30 if they use a standard build, but your 4 gate arrives at around 6:00.
On August 16 2011 13:27 bankai wrote: Great looking build, thanks for the contribution vVvTime
The build kinda looks like Huk's blink stalker build (Arcanefrost did a guide on this) but instead using a 2 Gate FE opening and a bit more emphasis on teching up.
I tried this build against the AI to get a feel for it and have some questions: 1) Why don't you put down at least a 3rd or 4th gate after you expand? It feels really vulnerable playing off only 2 gates up until the 9min mark. Is it due to better flow of resources? 2) Given its only 2 gateways and a relatively small army by 9:30mins (compared to say a 6 gate +1 timing attack), are you implying that we cant really pressure the zerg up until the 8-9min mark?? 3) One problem i noticed with 3 gate sentry expand is that zerg players know how to scout it better, and feel free to drone up alot. What happens if this 2 gate is scouted? Cant they drone freely up until 8mins and get a massive eco lead?
Thanks again and hope these questions make sense!
1) I don't have the resources to produce out of additional gateways until later, and I feel that I can accomplish all of the early/midgame goals (not dying to all-ins, denying greedy expansions to stay even on economy, etc.) with only 2.
2) Against a zerg who is not trying to take a super greedy third, no, it will not be possible to pressure them before 8 or 9 minutes. OTOH, against certain builds, you can just skip the nexus and 4 gate them since you have quite a lot of chronos used on warpgate anyway. In a BoX series this can throw people off. I find it particularly strong against 11p18h builds, since they will not have gas until at least 6:30 if they use a standard build, but your 4 gate arrives at around 6:00.
3) Not that I am aware of
Great - thanks for the response and once again, a really nice build!
Nice build, seems like it has a lot of potential and I'll probably test it out on korea and see how it fares there.
Quick question though, what do you do against early HEAVY ling pressure? I mean the type where they rush speed and get 16+ lings right by your natural ready to surround your army the moment it goes down the ramp - this style is extremely prevalent in high diamond/low masters Korea atm, and he has the lings ready at your ramp @ about 5:15~ before you push down.
I've lost a few times now to this heavy early ling pressure (they drone AFTER the lings, not drone before the lings) where I move to clear his "scouting" ling chilling in the expansion just to get runby by 20 lings and instantly lose the game because it's hard to perfectly forcefield surround your army against speedlings with like .5 seconds of reaction. This is especially annoying on maps like Typhon Peaks where your natural is annoyingly far away from your ramp and hard to fast simcity
Agh I just realized my question isn't very clear: what do you respond with in the situation that you can't take your expansion at the regular timing due to heavy ling pressure? Sorry if you already have it in your post somewhere but I'm half asleep and might have missed something o,o
On August 17 2011 17:24 Legend` wrote: Nice build, seems like it has a lot of potential and I'll probably test it out on korea and see how it fares there.
Quick question though, what do you do against early HEAVY ling pressure? I mean the type where they rush speed and get 16+ lings right by your natural ready to surround your army the moment it goes down the ramp - this style is extremely prevalent in high diamond/low masters Korea atm, and he has the lings ready at your ramp @ about 5:15~ before you push down.
I've lost a few times now to this heavy early ling pressure (they drone AFTER the lings, not drone before the lings) where I move to clear his "scouting" ling chilling in the expansion just to get runby by 20 lings and instantly lose the game because it's hard to perfectly forcefield surround your army against speedlings with like .5 seconds of reaction.
Agh I just realized my question isn't very clear: what do you respond with in the situation that you can't take your expansion at the regular timing due to heavy ling pressure?
I guess if I knew they're making a lot of lings I would make forge before nexus. When I do lose it's usually to mass lings and I misplace force fields/have poor simcity, or to really heavy roach aggression after losing a lot of units attacking their 3rd.
Once you have the nexus started and a few warpins of sentries it's usually pretty easy to tell whether or not they have a lot of lings. A lot of zergs will just sit and attack a nexus with 4 lings, which is 99% of the time baiting you to come out and flank with 20 more lings.
On August 17 2011 17:24 Legend` wrote: Nice build, seems like it has a lot of potential and I'll probably test it out on korea and see how it fares there.
Quick question though, what do you do against early HEAVY ling pressure? I mean the type where they rush speed and get 16+ lings right by your natural ready to surround your army the moment it goes down the ramp - this style is extremely prevalent in high diamond/low masters Korea atm, and he has the lings ready at your ramp @ about 5:15~ before you push down.
I've lost a few times now to this heavy early ling pressure (they drone AFTER the lings, not drone before the lings) where I move to clear his "scouting" ling chilling in the expansion just to get runby by 20 lings and instantly lose the game because it's hard to perfectly forcefield surround your army against speedlings with like .5 seconds of reaction.
Agh I just realized my question isn't very clear: what do you respond with in the situation that you can't take your expansion at the regular timing due to heavy ling pressure?
I guess if I knew they're making a lot of lings I would make forge before nexus. When I do lose it's usually to mass lings and I misplace force fields/have poor simcity, or to really heavy roach aggression after losing a lot of units attacking their 3rd.
Once you have the nexus started and a few warpins of sentries it's usually pretty easy to tell whether or not they have a lot of lings. A lot of zergs will just sit and attack a nexus with 4 lings, which is 99% of the time baiting you to come out and flank with 20 more lings.
Yeah that seems to be what I see a lot on ladder nowadays too. Lots of zergs are taking advantage of the fact that when people see a hatchery they expect the zerg to drone up before making units, not the opposite, causing you to be not ready against the early ling pressure. Good choice though to see that since they aren't rushing drones theres no need for you to rush the expansion, thanks for the help! Originally I'd usually just do a 4gate expand if I see mass lings while trying to take my expansion (if I haven't already autolost to a ling surround on my first 4-5 units).
On August 22 2011 05:49 CardinalSC wrote: When do you add your robo and extra gates? After scouting tech path? I imagine you go Blink Stalkers or Chargelot/HT vs Ling/Infestor play
I believe the OP states you get the robo/gates when you move out at the 'standard' 9:30min mark with your army and leaving 2/3cannons back home for defense.
Building the robo/gates will vary though depending on what zerg is up to e.g. if they roach/ling all-in at 7:30 then you want to build the gates earlier to fend it off.
On August 22 2011 05:49 CardinalSC wrote: When do you add your robo and extra gates? After scouting tech path? I imagine you go Blink Stalkers or Chargelot/HT vs Ling/Infestor play
I believe the OP states you get the robo/gates when you move out at the 'standard' 9:30min mark with your army and leaving 2/3cannons back home for defense.
Building the robo/gates will vary though depending on what zerg is up to e.g. if they roach/ling all-in at 7:30 then you want to build the gates earlier to fend it off.
Yeah, there's not really a specific timing for it. It's basically just as resources permit, which happens to be around 10:00 most games. When I did some games vs a computer just to show the build to someone and practice macro a little, I had enough to start making them at aroud 9:00, but that doesn't account for any delays due to zerg aggression or having to use chronos on WGs, etc.
been using this ALOT and its really nice timings and i never really thought until now to go zealot stalker and actually harass with it due to most zergs just thinking that they are safe with 4 lings and until that 4:50 mark speedlings can't be out so you are free to reign. Also love rushing the early +3 even with a handfull of collo SO effective thanks <3
Thanks a lot Time! I've been trying this build on Ladder (diamond) with great success! The expand is safe as well as fast, there's opportunity to pressure Zerg, and it techs and upgrades really fast!
Can you or anybody else talk more about defending the Destiny-style infested terran timing attack? I spotted it coming and made a 3rd cannon, and only barely held it off but lost about 30 probes and my 3rd base. I think having a colossus is the only way I managed to deal with the lings and infested terrans adequately. I guess I shouldn't be taking a 3rd base before Zerg does, when I know he's preparing a timing attack...? I eventually did win the game by doing big counterattacks with colossus, blink stalkers and high templar every time he used up his infestor energy harassing with ITs, but that timing attack was SO damaging and scary!
Will this build still be viable with patch 1.4 increased blink time? How much does the 9:30min push rely on having blink ready by then?? Watching through some of the replays im thinking it should not matter as you still have sentries to assist the stalkers so cant see it making much difference??
I've had a lot of issues with zergs sending non-stop lings after standard 14 pool when they see no wall-off at the ramp. On most maps gateway + pylon isn't a zergling-tight wall-off it seems. How do you deal with this if you don't initially wall-off your ramp? I suppose I'm taking your build order too literally though since you say you do this for 6 pool but I can defend 6 pools fine by walling off the ramp.
Also it seems that your Nexus is incredibly vulnerable to early ling pressure at that timing. When you throw it down you only have a zealot and a couple sentries, and I am usually forced to wait for the low ground pylon to warp in so I can throw down the forge and nexus at the same time.
ive used similar builds and what ive found is that you do very early pressure but then your scouting ability (when it matters) drops tremedously. in fact, when you need to determine whether or not the zerg is going to mass lings, mass roaches, get mutas or drone up, you are securely in your base with no scouting available. the issue is that you cannot defend well against all of these at the same time, leading you to possibly win a few games, but lose quite a few as well due to this problem.
On August 26 2011 11:15 bankai wrote: Will this build still be viable with patch 1.4 increased blink time? How much does the 9:30min push rely on having blink ready by then?? Watching through some of the replays im thinking it should not matter as you still have sentries to assist the stalkers so cant see it making much difference??
It probably won't matter, but it might be a little harder to hold against some variations of roach aggression, where blink is fairly important.
On August 27 2011 01:40 Skyro wrote: I've had a lot of issues with zergs sending non-stop lings after standard 14 pool when they see no wall-off at the ramp. On most maps gateway + pylon isn't a zergling-tight wall-off it seems. How do you deal with this if you don't initially wall-off your ramp? I suppose I'm taking your build order too literally though since you say you do this for 6 pool but I can defend 6 pools fine by walling off the ramp.
Also it seems that your Nexus is incredibly vulnerable to early ling pressure at that timing. When you throw it down you only have a zealot and a couple sentries, and I am usually forced to wait for the low ground pylon to warp in so I can throw down the forge and nexus at the same time.
As for the pylon+gateway wall, I'm 90% sure that it's tight on every map, it just requires perfect zealot placement.
Against early lings, you just need good force fields. Maybe there are some lings timings where you will not have enough units out, but a lot of the time you can probably see them making a lot of lings or at least not droning much with your probe scout(s).
On August 27 2011 01:49 JiYan wrote: ive used similar builds and what ive found is that you do very early pressure but then your scouting ability (when it matters) drops tremedously. in fact, when you need to determine whether or not the zerg is going to mass lings, mass roaches, get mutas or drone up, you are securely in your base with no scouting available. the issue is that you cannot defend well against all of these at the same time, leading you to possibly win a few games, but lose quite a few as well due to this problem.
With hallucinate finishing around 7:30 and an observer coming out at 11:00 I've never had an issue with scouting. Mutas are not very threatening, since you already have blink done pretty early.
Also, in most of my recent games I have been taking my first zealot and sending it to their 3rd+taking towers. If they suddenly have 8+ lings to come kill it, you know they are either doing aggression very soon, or are using the lings to try to deny scouting of their early 3rd base.
On August 27 2011 01:56 vVvTime wrote: As for the pylon+gateway wall, I'm 90% sure that it's tight on every map, it just requires perfect zealot placement.
Against early lings, you just need good force fields. Maybe there are some lings timings where you will not have enough units out, but a lot of the time you can probably see them making a lot of lings or at least not droning much with your probe scout(s).
Yeah it just seems tough to get a gauge on their drone/ling production after his first batch of lings shoos away your scouting probe.
One last question, what is the logic behind the early blink? It seems (for me at least) it is a lot more effective doing a 6-gate, and then if you confirm an early 3rd with your hallucinate you can simply run it over. Vs a late third you can use your large army to secure your own third, and 6-gate also smashes 2-base mutaling so you don't really need blink in that case either. It seems more logical to me to choose your tech after you scout with hallucinate.
The only advantage I see of such an early blink (compared to a later blink) is vs heavy roach play and being able to get +2 weapons right away.
On August 27 2011 01:56 vVvTime wrote: As for the pylon+gateway wall, I'm 90% sure that it's tight on every map, it just requires perfect zealot placement.
Against early lings, you just need good force fields. Maybe there are some lings timings where you will not have enough units out, but a lot of the time you can probably see them making a lot of lings or at least not droning much with your probe scout(s).
Yeah it just seems tough to get a gauge on their drone/ling production after his first batch of lings shoos away your scouting probe.
One last question, what is the logic behind the early blink? It seems (for me at least) it is a lot more effective doing a 6-gate, and then if you confirm an early 3rd with your hallucinate you can simply run it over. Vs a late third you can use your large army to secure your own third, and 6-gate also smashes 2-base mutaling so you don't really need blink in that case either. It seems more logical to me to choose your tech after you scout with hallucinate.
The only advantage I see of such an early blink (compared to a later blink) is vs heavy roach play and being able to get +2 weapons right away.
Whenever I try 5-6 gate styles PvZ I have a really hard time dealing with early infestors. I also haven't had much success breaking expos defending by roach/ling with that style, so I think it's fairly rare that it would actually allow me to break their expansion any more often than I do currently.
I don't know why you posted the game vs Destiny though, had he payed a second more attention he would have focused down your natural (it had 23hp left) it would have been gg right there. To your defense if you used ffs you could have maybe saved all that early nexus damage....
Very interesting build though ..thanks for sharing.
Hey, replay links aren't working for me? (takes me to one of those awkward placeholder/search sites) Is it possible im just a fool?* Edit: Nvm just saw the post about the site being down. I anxiously await its return.
hi im a bronze terran and whenever i do an early expand i lose to mass muta because my thor is late. my metagame is not so good so i never know when they are coming. you should check youre build if its safe from muta cheese. sry for my bad english hope i could help
I like the look of this, i'll try it later on. I really liked the cannons thing though recently i've been playing around with getting one or two cannons to help in PvP to hold 4gates with say a 3gate, meaning i have more money for expanding, etc.
nice guide ^_^
EDIT: just saw this post above mine
On September 09 2011 03:43 yagsllab wrote: hi im a bronze terran and whenever i do an early expand i lose to mass muta because my thor is late. my metagame is not so good so i never know when they are coming. you should check youre build if its safe from muta cheese. sry for my bad english hope i could help
if your having trouble with mutas, get an engineering bay a bit earlier and a couple of turrets at your mineral line, production, etc and that should hold the mutas till you get the thor
So the big picture of this build is sacrificing econ (later nexus and less chrono on probes) for safety and intel. It'd be a pretty good ladder build.
Suggestions: 1. have you tried hallucinating a void for scouting and sending it pass the watchtower? It would get the same thing done (but take longer) and with 7 chronos on cybercore it seems it would look like a quick void, enough to make zerg scramble their queens.
2. your build's strength is safety and INTEL. I suggest studying more replays or try playing zerg yourself, to make better use of the intel. It seems you have pidgeonholed yourself into 2 timings, and 3 flow-chart-esque responses, when you should be real-time adapting from the amazing scouting your build allows you. There is no set "build" for zerg, every zerg player has different hatch timings, evo timings, drone pattern/counts, etc. and hence different timings of weakness.
Hope this helps! This can be an awesome ladder build. I would like to add that if a zerg takes an easy 3rd and you take a greedy 3rd in response (if u use this build), it may seem greedy to you but you are conceding the advantage to the zerg, because your probe count is sub-par.
great build order and explanation. I've been using a similar 2 gate expand opening, and I love your building placement and the transition into 2 well-defined timing attacks.
Have you tried chronoing out units, instead of the warpgate? It seems a little less important to get warpgate fast, when you don't have that many gates.
On September 10 2011 18:02 ejozl wrote: Have you tried chronoing out units, instead of the warpgate? It seems a little less important to get warpgate fast, when you don't have that many gates.
I haven't tried this, but my initial reaction is that because you have to spend the resources on the units earlier, this would probably delay the nexus a bit.
If you have tested a slightly different build order that you think is more optimal feel free to post replays and I might look at it when I get the chance.
I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
On September 12 2011 12:10 Mitchlew wrote: I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
Your opponent went hatch first and you still took your expo after 2 gates, which puts you behind. Also you should really build your 2nd pylon on 15 or 16 supply.
I think the biggest error was during your first big push, though. You have 7 full energy sentries and blink, but you don't use a single force field, guardian shield, or blink.
Had another game where I scouted an extremely quick third. I do what I usually do and go and kill his third asap, however he some how had enough speedlings to easily take out my force.
Is it becasue his third was so far away it was safe? How should have I properly reacted. I am thinking about buying some lessons from you.
On September 12 2011 20:54 Mitchlew wrote: Had another game where I scouted an extremely quick third. I do what I usually do and go and kill his third asap, however he some how had enough speedlings to easily take out my force.
Is it becasue his third was so far away it was safe? How should have I properly reacted. I am thinking about buying some lessons from you.
On September 12 2011 20:54 Mitchlew wrote: Had another game where I scouted an extremely quick third. I do what I usually do and go and kill his third asap, however he some how had enough speedlings to easily take out my force.
Is it becasue his third was so far away it was safe? How should have I properly reacted. I am thinking about buying some lessons from you.
On September 12 2011 12:10 Mitchlew wrote: I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
Your opponent went hatch first and you still took your expo after 2 gates, which puts you behind. Also you should really build your 2nd pylon on 15 or 16 supply.
I think the biggest error was during your first big push, though. You have 7 full energy sentries and blink, but you don't use a single force field, guardian shield, or blink.
I just had a game on xelnaga where my opponent went hatch first so I thought it would be safe to do a 1 gate expand. I ended up getting crushed my a roach ling attack. I looked at the replay he still had more harvesters than me and was able to get an army out. Is it really viable to 1 gate FE after opponent goes hatch first.
Maybe I should have put forge down before 2nd gate?
On September 12 2011 12:10 Mitchlew wrote: I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
Your opponent went hatch first and you still took your expo after 2 gates, which puts you behind. Also you should really build your 2nd pylon on 15 or 16 supply.
I think the biggest error was during your first big push, though. You have 7 full energy sentries and blink, but you don't use a single force field, guardian shield, or blink.
I just had a game on xelnaga where my opponent went hatch first so I thought it would be safe to do a 1 gate expand. I ended up getting crushed my a roach ling attack. I looked at the replay he still had more harvesters than me and was able to get an army out. Is it really viable to 1 gate FE after opponent goes hatch first.
Maybe I should have put forge down before 2nd gate?
It takes a good amount of practice to hold that with a 1 gate FE no matter how he opened... Keep at it. I personally like to get a forge and cannons, but then again, thats a different build.
On September 12 2011 12:10 Mitchlew wrote: I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
Your opponent went hatch first and you still took your expo after 2 gates, which puts you behind. Also you should really build your 2nd pylon on 15 or 16 supply.
I think the biggest error was during your first big push, though. You have 7 full energy sentries and blink, but you don't use a single force field, guardian shield, or blink.
I just had a game on xelnaga where my opponent went hatch first so I thought it would be safe to do a 1 gate expand. I ended up getting crushed my a roach ling attack. I looked at the replay he still had more harvesters than me and was able to get an army out. Is it really viable to 1 gate FE after opponent goes hatch first.
Maybe I should have put forge down before 2nd gate?
You did not scout at all. You should always send your scouting probe back into their base around 4:00. Since he had no lings and no queen you would have seen the roach warren.
Also against late gas you need to send the zealot and stalker to harass. If for whatever reason your probe got no scouting intel, this poke will give you more information, as well as force lings, which you need to do to stay even with hatch first.
How fast constitutes a "Greedy" third base? I've had several Zergs take a 3rd base at around 6 minutes while doing this 2 gate expand build, I research blink and move out at 10 minutes to kill it, and he has enough roaches or speedlings or infestors out to stop the push easily by the time I get there.
Zerg got a 6 minute 3rd, and by the time blink is done he has like 40 speedlings and I lose everything when I move out. Granted, my micro could have been better, but I'm pretty sure as long as he kept pumping out speedlings I can't kill that 3rd. Please let me know if I'm wrong.
Sigh, I feel like I just don't understand this matchup at all anymore.
On September 14 2011 06:01 GomJabbar wrote: How fast constitutes a "Greedy" third base? I've had several Zergs take a 3rd base at around 6 minutes while doing this 2 gate expand build, I research blink and move out at 10 minutes to kill it, and he has enough roaches or speedlings or infestors out to stop the push easily by the time I get there.
Zerg got a 6 minute 3rd, and by the time blink is done he has like 40 speedlings and I lose everything when I move out. Granted, my micro could have been better, but I'm pretty sure as long as he kept pumping out speedlings I can't kill that 3rd. Please let me know if I'm wrong.
Sigh, I feel like I just don't understand this matchup at all anymore.
If they take it at 6 minutes chrono +1 and warp in 1-2 rounds of zealots and then go attack it, don't wait for blink.
That's my to go PvZ build at the moment, which suits me very well. Decent aggresion and open tech paths. I struggle the most versus mass speedlings right before I can send the first hallu phoenix or right the moment I send him (because waling path =/= flying path).
Thanks for the guide, I've been just practicing against a computer to get the timings of 10 and 16 down. This build makes me feel so much better with PvZ. Anyway I had some questions.
If the new patch does go through, the 10 minute blink and +1 push is going to be delayed, I'm guessing the only way to mitigate the patch is saving up extra chronos and pushing out 20 seconds later? Your build at the moment lines up well, and it might make the timings a bit choppy.
When do you like to throw down your extra gateways to power out more T1 units while you wait on your 3 colossus + lance timing at the 16 minute mark?
Thanks again for the effort and time you put into this build.
After being a forever lurker, I registered just to show my appreciation for this build. I had really been struggling in this matchup lately, and this build really gave my PvZ some direction. Not only is it strong, but it also has helped me work on all of my weaker points ie forcefield/timings.
If any protoss is looking for that one special build to use as a foundation for his(her?) PvZ I'd definitely recommend this.
On September 12 2011 12:10 Mitchlew wrote: I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
Your opponent went hatch first and you still took your expo after 2 gates, which puts you behind. Also you should really build your 2nd pylon on 15 or 16 supply.
I think the biggest error was during your first big push, though. You have 7 full energy sentries and blink, but you don't use a single force field, guardian shield, or blink.
I just had a game on xelnaga where my opponent went hatch first so I thought it would be safe to do a 1 gate expand. I ended up getting crushed my a roach ling attack. I looked at the replay he still had more harvesters than me and was able to get an army out. Is it really viable to 1 gate FE after opponent goes hatch first.
Maybe I should have put forge down before 2nd gate?
You did not scout at all. You should always send your scouting probe back into their base around 4:00. Since he had no lings and no queen you would have seen the roach warren.
Also against late gas you need to send the zealot and stalker to harass. If for whatever reason your probe got no scouting intel, this poke will give you more information, as well as force lings, which you need to do to stay even with hatch first.
I remember a time when ppl advocated the 1z 1stalker harass to keep equal economy with zerg, but then zerg seem to have gotten better at reacting to this and could more cost-effectively stop this. My experience with trying to do this also felt like it wasnt worth it - although im not sure what the solution is
So my question is, how do you adjust this opener for zergs who just drone really hard or 15 hatch? Is there something 'scarier' we can do to make them think twice? The two options i can think of is (1) 1 Gate FE as you suggest (skip the zealot, take the nexus on 26ish supply, then immediately forge/cannon/2nd gate then continue as normal with the build order) (2) Chrono 3-4zealots instead of building the forge, then attack around 6min mark, and behind the attack, expand and then build the forge --> not sure if this can work off this build, but the idea is used a lot for ppl going off FOrge FEs.
On September 12 2011 12:10 Mitchlew wrote: I have been using this build to great success, pretty much 100% win ratio against Z around my diamond level. However I lost to this one zerg and I really cant figure out why.
So if anyone could give me a few pointers. It would be greatly appreciated.
Your opponent went hatch first and you still took your expo after 2 gates, which puts you behind. Also you should really build your 2nd pylon on 15 or 16 supply.
I think the biggest error was during your first big push, though. You have 7 full energy sentries and blink, but you don't use a single force field, guardian shield, or blink.
I just had a game on xelnaga where my opponent went hatch first so I thought it would be safe to do a 1 gate expand. I ended up getting crushed my a roach ling attack. I looked at the replay he still had more harvesters than me and was able to get an army out. Is it really viable to 1 gate FE after opponent goes hatch first.
Maybe I should have put forge down before 2nd gate?
You did not scout at all. You should always send your scouting probe back into their base around 4:00. Since he had no lings and no queen you would have seen the roach warren.
Also against late gas you need to send the zealot and stalker to harass. If for whatever reason your probe got no scouting intel, this poke will give you more information, as well as force lings, which you need to do to stay even with hatch first.
I remember a time when ppl advocated the 1z 1stalker harass to keep equal economy with zerg, but then zerg seem to have gotten better at reacting to this and could more cost-effectively stop this. My experience with trying to do this also felt like it wasnt worth it - although im not sure what the solution is
So my question is, how do you adjust this opener for zergs who just drone really hard or 15 hatch? Is there something 'scarier' we can do to make them think twice? The two options i can think of is (1) 1 Gate FE as you suggest (skip the zealot, take the nexus on 26ish supply, then immediately forge/cannon/2nd gate then continue as normal with the build order) (2) Chrono 3-4zealots instead of building the forge, then attack around 6min mark, and behind the attack, expand and then build the forge --> not sure if this can work off this build, but the idea is used a lot for ppl going off FOrge FEs.
If i scout hatch first, or in general a build that delays gas up to say 2.30 or 3.00 ish i like to do the double stalker opening, and expand off that. On 4 player maps it's kind of annoying though because you might not see it until after your core has gone down, and at that point 1gate fe is the best option.
Alternatively, if his gas is insanely late (after 3.00) i think you can 4gate him and hit before ling speed even finishes, but i dont have a good pvz 4gate so i dont know the specifics of it.
Too bad that Zerg begins to roll over this build in a blink of an eye. They take very fast 3rd ? Np, I make zealots and I push (from 2 gates that means like 3-4 zealots, which sux). By the time I arrive at his 3rd, he has a shitload of roaches, game ends. Last time I used this build, I was forced to build 2 robotics to pump colossus in order to survive to his push. Zerg got maxxed at 15 while I had 140, I've been nomatched with nomicro at all for him (I had probe lead the whole game)
And it's always this, even if I outplay them or play the build perfectly, they just take fast 3rd, make roaches, kill you.
Another thing is even if you force him to make units, people will be "hey thats good u forced units ". Hell no thats the worst case scenario ever, since you'll have to wait like 5min of constant warp-ins just to deal with his army. During this time, he took 2 more expand, so its 5 bases against 2 (because obviously, if you take 3rd, you can't hold it or you die), and by the time you go out, he has T3.
I was 6-0 few hours ago, now I'm like 8-11, sth like that, 2 losses against Terrans, rest against Zergs, while i was using this strat.
On November 13 2011 10:58 Sakray wrote: Too bad that Zerg begins to roll over this build in a blink of an eye. They take very fast 3rd ? Np, I make zealots and I push (from 2 gates that means like 3-4 zealots, which sux). By the time I arrive at his 3rd, he has a shitload of roaches, game ends. Last time I used this build, I was forced to build 2 robotics to pump colossus in order to survive to his push. Zerg got maxxed at 15 while I had 140, I've been nomatched with nomicro at all for him (I had probe lead the whole game)
And it's always this, even if I outplay them or play the build perfectly, they just take fast 3rd, make roaches, kill you.
Another thing is even if you force him to make units, people will be "hey thats good u forced units ". Hell no thats the worst case scenario ever, since you'll have to wait like 5min of constant warp-ins just to deal with his army. During this time, he took 2 more expand, so its 5 bases against 2 (because obviously, if you take 3rd, you can't hold it or you die), and by the time you go out, he has T3.
I was 6-0 few hours ago, now I'm like 8-11, sth like that, 2 losses against Terrans, rest against Zergs, while i was using this strat.
I must say I am having some similar troubles. The aggressive potential of this build is so delayed and specific that there really isn't that much that you'll be able to do against a Zerg that gimps their own econ a bit early on, to get map control, then compensates for it later on because you can't attack them any more.
The build works a charm if the Zerg decides to hardcore macro and not build units. When they do build units, you're absolutely stuck in your base until you get Colossus, and at that point Zerg has a safe third up and running and is pumping even more units. The drones that they sacrificed early on to make those units will be rebuilt in one single production cycle, and Protoss is now in a really tough spot. One thing that I've been able to do is make a Stargate transition when I sense that the Zerg is trying to be aggressive, and go into a sort of 2gate Stargate expansion. The presence of Voidrays make their mass ling/roach quite useless and force them to devote even more resources and larvae to anti-air/hydra tech, when that's exactly the time they really would want to drone up. This might give you just enough time to get your third up or mass up enough gateway/robo stuff to survive.
I'm not nearly good enough (or playing enough, lately) to figure out if this stargate option is a real possibility or just something I've managed to get away with when I shouldn't have, but it's worth experimenting with. No aggression-> progress as usual. Aggression->2gate stargate.
On November 13 2011 11:53 DarQraven wrote: No aggression-> progress as usual. Aggression->2gate stargate.
Problem is that sometimes they just make unit no to make agression, but just, and I say JUST, crush your army if you want to pressure a bit. They make defensive army and sit out on their bases, so, if you scout no agression and push to kill the third, you're gonna lose your army, which means basicly losing the game.
This build is not as effective as it once was and I think it's because Zergs figured what to do against it. The 2 canons don't even seem to scare them to push early and on wide open maps, they bust super easy.
Hey, I've been using this guide since you posted it, and won many games with it. I definitely use it as my non FFE opener now.
I have been losing to all ins like the one in the replay here though, I was wondering if you could tell me what I did wrong? I watched the replay several times and can't find any missed benchmarks.
The main question I have is regarding the opener vs the all in. Feel free to comment on the rest of the game, but the first 8 minutes or so are what really puzzle me.
To the people getting crushed when using this build can you please post replays like Charliexjustice just did? My PvZ has tanked bad lately and i'm looking to see if this build is even still viable even more.
I'm not sure what's viable in pvz these days. It seems like PVZ is FFE or bust, but as evidenced by Leenock vs Naniwa at MLG Providence it's more likely BUST. I don't even know of any PVZ openers besides this one, FFE and sentry expo, which requires gosu forcefields to survive any sort of all in.
I'd love feedback on what does work in modern PVZ, openers and otherwise.
On November 13 2011 11:53 DarQraven wrote: No aggression-> progress as usual. Aggression->2gate stargate.
Problem is that sometimes they just make unit no to make agression, but just, and I say JUST, crush your army if you want to pressure a bit. They make defensive army and sit out on their bases, so, if you scout no agression and push to kill the third, you're gonna lose your army, which means basicly losing the game.
True, but let's rephrase that to "aggression potential" then. If he's building enough units to put your army in danger, simply don't attack. No real need to pressure a Zerg if he's already building units of his own accord. The problem comes with Zerg's army head start and your lack of map control this causes. It basically eliminates options like the Blink timing outlined in this guide: - There won't be a third quick enough to do damage there, and Zerg will have enough army units to safely defend. - You are going to be stuck in your base until you have Colossus up, the 16 minute timing. - Zerg can easily recoup their drone count losses by dronespamming after they have army units and you can't really attack them anymore without committing. - Any number of dangerous tech switches (muta, corruptors, banelings) are possible and there's hardly anything you can do against them because you'll be bunkered up in your base.
The Stargate switch I mentioned effectively means that Zerg will be forced to follow your course. If you can't directly pressure him, you can at least build units which forces him to get Hydra, spores, queens and/or air units. That delay is sometimes enough to get all your other tech up.
EPT
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