EPT[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16 - Page 2
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chipman
United States139 Posts
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
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SneakAttack
Israel20 Posts
- If you haven't been denied of expansion (early lings or w/e), you'll put it around the same time (only a few SC seconds in the good scenario). - Your worker count is the same in 3GFE (34 by the 8 minute mark). - Both have hallucination done by the 8 minute mark. - Weapon +1 is on both around 30% done. - You have less units (Namely sentries). The only advantage I find in this build is the fact that you get blink pretty fast. Of course this build continues on to the mid game, and that differs from 3GFE BO, but I have a feeling I can achieve these exact same goals with 3GFE, which seems safer, and the unit count is higher over there. I would like to hear comments on my post, since I might be wrong and I want to stand corrected if I do. I would love to hear your opinion as why is this better than 3GFE. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 12 2011 19:08 SneakAttack wrote: Interesting build, but I'm trying to find the differences using this build over a normal 3 Gate FE: - If you haven't been denied of expansion (early lings or w/e), you'll put it around the same time (only a few SC seconds in the good scenario). - Your worker count is the same in 3GFE (34 by the 8 minute mark). - Both have hallucination done by the 8 minute mark. - Weapon +1 is on both around 30% done. - You have less units (Namely sentries). The only advantage I find in this build is the fact that you get blink pretty fast. Of course this build continues on to the mid game, and that differs from 3GFE BO, but I have a feeling I can achieve these exact same goals with 3GFE, which seems safer, and the unit count is higher over there. I would like to hear comments on my post, since I might be wrong and I want to stand corrected if I do. I would love to hear your opinion as why is this better than 3GFE. By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does. | ||
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SneakAttack
Israel20 Posts
On August 12 2011 19:18 Teoita wrote: By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does. Slightly as in 10 seconds in the case of 2 gate? not worth it. You can make the same SimCity if you choose to do so with a 3GFE, also, I'm not forced into a 4th gateway before teching, where did you get that from? Nothing keeps me from throwing extra cannons like Time does. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 12 2011 19:42 SneakAttack wrote: Slightly as in 10 seconds in the case of 2 gate? not worth it. You can make the same SimCity if you choose to do so with a 3GFE, also, I'm not forced into a 4th gateway before teching, where did you get that from? Nothing keeps me from throwing extra cannons like Time does. These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling. Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well. Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds). But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice  | ||
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SneakAttack
Israel20 Posts
On August 12 2011 19:48 Teoita wrote: These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling. Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well. Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds). But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice In most of the replays the simcity isnt that good, the cannons are vulnerable, so I wouldnt say this build has a good simcity in it. I can make the same "2 cannon block" with a standard 3GFE and a forge at the bottom of my ramp. The strong part of 3GFE is that you can get a lot of sentries, that gives u the option to lay a tons of force fields in later game. here you get a smaller amount of sentries, whose odds to get demolished are very high since this is an aggressive build. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:01 SneakAttack wrote: In most of the replays the simcity isnt that good, the cannons are vulnerable, so I wouldnt say this build has a good simcity in it. I can make the same "2 cannon block" with a standard 3GFE and a forge at the bottom of my ramp. The strong part of 3GFE is that you can get a lot of sentries, that gives u the option to lay a tons of force fields in later game. here you get a smaller amount of sentries, whose odds to get demolished are very high since this is an aggressive build. The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway. | ||
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SneakAttack
Israel20 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:02 Teoita wrote: The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway. I'm not pointing out why there is a low sentry count, I'm just stating a fact, that there is a low sentry count. vVvTime shows pretty good units control in his engagements (And great macroing behind these attacks), I'm not sure players of lower skill levels will be able to make this build as effective. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:12 SneakAttack wrote: I'm not pointing out why there is a low sentry count, I'm just stating a fact, that there is a low sentry count. vVvTime shows pretty good units control in his engagements (And great macroing behind these attacks), I'm not sure players of lower skill levels will be able to make this build as effective. Yeah but that has nothing to do with discussing about 1-2 gate and 3 gate fe, which was your original point. It's absolutely realistic to have very similar if not identical unit counts with 2 gates vs 3 in the early game, see this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225509 | ||
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Anfi
Russian Federation63 Posts
Is it just the distance? | ||
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FederigoEU
Germany50 Posts
 .Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :> | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 12 2011 21:43 FederigoEU wrote: I still die to infestors with this opening , , i deny his thrid when the Z plays Destiny Style , but after that it goes downwars .Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :> I've not seen many protoss players get into that, but when I see it, it's mostly successful: archons. The only thing that a ling/infestor-player can do vs archons is neural parasite....and if he does "that" then he can't possibly cast chain-fungals. Also you should always have some random HTs nearby for the occasional feedback. Even though they technicly can be fungalled, they have way too many shields for fungal to be cost-efficient vs them. And they splish/splash lings like no other unit. The biggest advantage is, that archons can be reinforced rather quickly, you don't have to worry about robotics production time, which is a real problem with a colossus-centred approach. | ||
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eatmybunnies
United States90 Posts
I just dont see why you would 1-2-3 gate expo and not forge fe. | ||
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Ungrateful
United States71 Posts
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Ungrateful
United States71 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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TheAlchemist89
160 Posts
This should also stop small squad attack damage from zerg. In short... can't wait to start using this build! I'm struggling hard with PvZ right now, and this looks like just the thing. Thanks :D | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:23 eatmybunnies wrote: I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg. I just dont see why you would 1-2-3 gate expo and not forge fe. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253184 "FFE vs 1GFE" There's a lot of things you can read here to understand the pros and cons of each builds. | ||
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