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[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16 - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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chipman
Profile Joined February 2011
United States139 Posts
August 12 2011 09:26 GMT
#21
baneling bombs are always scary, even more scary once the zerg's on +2 melee. Fortunately it takes time to get +2, banelings, drops/speed, and getting a expand utility unit like infestor/muta, less so for heavy roach or mass ling, if they get away with it.
Doesn't Afraid of Anything
CCalms
Profile Joined November 2010
United States341 Posts
August 12 2011 10:05 GMT
#22
Post-losira PvZ standard play, perfect. Best PvZ thread of all (vvv)time!
SneakAttack
Profile Joined July 2011
Israel20 Posts
August 12 2011 10:08 GMT
#23
Interesting build, but I'm trying to find the differences using this build over a normal 3 Gate FE:

- If you haven't been denied of expansion (early lings or w/e), you'll put it around the same time (only a few SC seconds in the good scenario).
- Your worker count is the same in 3GFE (34 by the 8 minute mark).
- Both have hallucination done by the 8 minute mark.
- Weapon +1 is on both around 30% done.
- You have less units (Namely sentries).

The only advantage I find in this build is the fact that you get blink pretty fast.
Of course this build continues on to the mid game, and that differs from 3GFE BO, but I have a feeling I can achieve these exact same goals with 3GFE, which seems safer, and the unit count is higher over there.

I would like to hear comments on my post, since I might be wrong and I want to stand corrected if I do. I would love to hear your opinion as why is this better than 3GFE.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
August 12 2011 10:18 GMT
#24
On August 12 2011 19:08 SneakAttack wrote:
Interesting build, but I'm trying to find the differences using this build over a normal 3 Gate FE:

- If you haven't been denied of expansion (early lings or w/e), you'll put it around the same time (only a few SC seconds in the good scenario).
- Your worker count is the same in 3GFE (34 by the 8 minute mark).
- Both have hallucination done by the 8 minute mark.
- Weapon +1 is on both around 30% done.
- You have less units (Namely sentries).

The only advantage I find in this build is the fact that you get blink pretty fast.
Of course this build continues on to the mid game, and that differs from 3GFE BO, but I have a feeling I can achieve these exact same goals with 3GFE, which seems safer, and the unit count is higher over there.

I would like to hear comments on my post, since I might be wrong and I want to stand corrected if I do. I would love to hear your opinion as why is this better than 3GFE.


By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
SneakAttack
Profile Joined July 2011
Israel20 Posts
August 12 2011 10:42 GMT
#25
On August 12 2011 19:18 Teoita wrote:
By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does.


Slightly as in 10 seconds in the case of 2 gate? not worth it.
You can make the same SimCity if you choose to do so with a 3GFE, also, I'm not forced into a 4th gateway before teching, where did you get that from?
Nothing keeps me from throwing extra cannons like Time does.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 10:49:17
August 12 2011 10:48 GMT
#26
On August 12 2011 19:42 SneakAttack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:18 Teoita wrote:
By going 1-2 gate fe the main advantages you get are 1) a slightly faster nexus (a good deal faster with just 1gate) and 2) an easier simcity at your nat to hold off aggression; with 3gates you are forced to go forge+4th gate before teching, whereas with 1-2 you can get a couple gateways first, and even overbuild cannons like Time does.


Slightly as in 10 seconds in the case of 2 gate? not worth it.
You can make the same SimCity if you choose to do so with a 3GFE, also, I'm not forced into a 4th gateway before teching, where did you get that from?
Nothing keeps me from throwing extra cannons like Time does.


These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling.
Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well.
Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds).
But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
SneakAttack
Profile Joined July 2011
Israel20 Posts
August 12 2011 11:01 GMT
#27
On August 12 2011 19:48 Teoita wrote:
These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling.
Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well.
Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds).
But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice


In most of the replays the simcity isnt that good, the cannons are vulnerable, so I wouldnt say this build has a good simcity in it. I can make the same "2 cannon block" with a standard 3GFE and a forge at the bottom of my ramp.

The strong part of 3GFE is that you can get a lot of sentries, that gives u the option to lay a tons of force fields in later game. here you get a smaller amount of sentries, whose odds to get demolished are very high since this is an aggressive build.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:08:20
August 12 2011 11:02 GMT
#28
On August 12 2011 20:01 SneakAttack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 19:48 Teoita wrote:
These days simcitying the bottom of your ramp is pretty standard, and for that on most maps you need a gate+forge, so if you already have 3 gates in your main you need the 4th. Of course it's really map/spawn position dependant, but that's how most people play safe vs roach-ling.
Personally i rarely need the third gateway really fast so i found that cutting it doesn't damage me in any way, so might as well.
Also, that's 2 gate exp. With 1gate expo your nexus is a good deal faster (40+ seconds).
But then again, im pretty bad, so if any better play can comment that would be nice


In most of the replays the simcity isnt that good, the cannons are vulnerable, so I wouldnt say this build has a good simcity in it. I can make the same "2 cannon block" with a standard 3GFE and a forge at the bottom of my ramp.

The strong part of 3GFE is that you can get a lot of sentries, that gives u the option to lay a tons of force fields in later game. here you get a smaller amount of sentries, whose odds to get demolished are very high since this is an aggressive build.


The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
SneakAttack
Profile Joined July 2011
Israel20 Posts
August 12 2011 11:12 GMT
#29
On August 12 2011 20:02 Teoita wrote:
The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway.


I'm not pointing out why there is a low sentry count, I'm just stating a fact, that there is a low sentry count. vVvTime shows pretty good units control in his engagements (And great macroing behind these attacks), I'm not sure players of lower skill levels will be able to make this build as effective.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 11:24:21
August 12 2011 11:23 GMT
#30
On August 12 2011 20:12 SneakAttack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2011 20:02 Teoita wrote:
The reason of the low sentry count is fast teching, delayed second gas and getting a stalker first, not the number of gateways. You can't even support 3 gates worth of sentries off 1 base anyway.


I'm not pointing out why there is a low sentry count, I'm just stating a fact, that there is a low sentry count. vVvTime shows pretty good units control in his engagements (And great macroing behind these attacks), I'm not sure players of lower skill levels will be able to make this build as effective.


Yeah but that has nothing to do with discussing about 1-2 gate and 3 gate fe, which was your original point. It's absolutely realistic to have very similar if not identical unit counts with 2 gates vs 3 in the early game, see this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225509
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Anfi
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation63 Posts
August 12 2011 12:09 GMT
#31
Not entirely certain as to why this build is bad on tal'darim.
Is it just the distance?
"Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth." - Chuck Norris
FederigoEU
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany50 Posts
August 12 2011 12:43 GMT
#32
I still die to infestors with this opening , , i deny his thrid when the Z plays Destiny Style , but after that it goes downwars .

Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :>
Be aware of the shark
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
August 12 2011 12:50 GMT
#33
On August 12 2011 21:43 FederigoEU wrote:
I still die to infestors with this opening , , i deny his thrid when the Z plays Destiny Style , but after that it goes downwars .

Against other playstyles this BO is AWESOME ! But what is my response to the Infestor play ? Sorry cant look replay right know cause i am at work :>


I've not seen many protoss players get into that, but when I see it, it's mostly successful: archons.

The only thing that a ling/infestor-player can do vs archons is neural parasite....and if he does "that" then he can't possibly cast chain-fungals. Also you should always have some random HTs nearby for the occasional feedback.

Even though they technicly can be fungalled, they have way too many shields for fungal to be cost-efficient vs them. And they splish/splash lings like no other unit. The biggest advantage is, that archons can be reinforced rather quickly, you don't have to worry about robotics production time, which is a real problem with a colossus-centred approach.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
eatmybunnies
Profile Joined October 2010
United States90 Posts
August 12 2011 15:23 GMT
#34
I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg.

I just dont see why you would 1-2-3 gate expo and not forge fe.
Ungrateful
Profile Joined August 2010
United States71 Posts
August 12 2011 15:33 GMT
#35
Yea, 2-3 ht's to feedback and archons with zealots for mineral dump and support seems to work best for me against Zerg. Also make sure to get attack upgrades up.
Ungrateful
Profile Joined August 2010
United States71 Posts
August 12 2011 15:36 GMT
#36
I cannot edit my post with my phone app but my post was for ling infester.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
August 12 2011 15:36 GMT
#37
Looks like a solid build, will start learning it asap.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
TheAlchemist89
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
160 Posts
August 12 2011 15:50 GMT
#38
Much protoss innovation is coming right outta the zerg playbook these days and I love it. The Mass-gateway style allowing for a protoss '300 food push' was great and makes strong use of the warp gate mechanic... and now this build simulating generous spine placement. It's a really great solution to increase home defense and allow protoss aggression to stay on course once it's out.

This should also stop small squad attack damage from zerg. In short... can't wait to start using this build! I'm struggling hard with PvZ right now, and this looks like just the thing.

Thanks :D
Moosegills
Profile Joined March 2011
United States558 Posts
August 12 2011 15:51 GMT
#39
VERY well written guide, as a zerg player i can tell you just the going stalker before sentry but yet playing "standard" can definitely throw you off, combined with the late 2nd gas it could easily get the zerg reading 4 gate.
#1 HuK fan, zerg player playing for http://www.complexitygaming.com - @coL_Moosegills
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-12 15:57:14
August 12 2011 15:56 GMT
#40
On August 13 2011 00:23 eatmybunnies wrote:
I'm kind of confused on why you dont just FFE. I mean you need a forge to defend a 6 pool anyway and your nexus will be up so much sooner. And any early aggression gets stopped when he sees 2-3 cannons. Your eco will be even with the zerg.

I just dont see why you would 1-2-3 gate expo and not forge fe.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253184

"FFE vs 1GFE" There's a lot of things you can read here to understand the pros and cons of each builds.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
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