EPT[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16 - Page 8
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StrinterN
Denmark531 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On September 14 2011 06:01 GomJabbar wrote: How fast constitutes a "Greedy" third base? I've had several Zergs take a 3rd base at around 6 minutes while doing this 2 gate expand build, I research blink and move out at 10 minutes to kill it, and he has enough roaches or speedlings or infestors out to stop the push easily by the time I get there. In this game I just played, for example. http://www.mediafire.com/?ancsxe0y2g2223s Zerg got a 6 minute 3rd, and by the time blink is done he has like 40 speedlings and I lose everything when I move out. Granted, my micro could have been better, but I'm pretty sure as long as he kept pumping out speedlings I can't kill that 3rd. Please let me know if I'm wrong. Sigh, I feel like I just don't understand this matchup at all anymore. If they take it at 6 minutes chrono +1 and warp in 1-2 rounds of zealots and then go attack it, don't wait for blink. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
I struggle the most versus mass speedlings right before I can send the first hallu phoenix or right the moment I send him (because waling path =/= flying path). | ||
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minhbq299
United Kingdom566 Posts
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drybones
United States69 Posts
On September 14 2011 14:04 minhbq299 wrote: Nowadays, zerg usually go mass slings, it is really hard to kind of kiting and killing 3rd base of zerg warp prism harass =) | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
If the new patch does go through, the 10 minute blink and +1 push is going to be delayed, I'm guessing the only way to mitigate the patch is saving up extra chronos and pushing out 20 seconds later? Your build at the moment lines up well, and it might make the timings a bit choppy. When do you like to throw down your extra gateways to power out more T1 units while you wait on your 3 colossus + lance timing at the 16 minute mark? Thanks again for the effort and time you put into this build. | ||
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Melonator
Canada13 Posts
If any protoss is looking for that one special build to use as a foundation for his(her?) PvZ I'd definitely recommend this. Cheers man! | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On September 13 2011 13:42 iSTime wrote: You did not scout at all. You should always send your scouting probe back into their base around 4:00. Since he had no lings and no queen you would have seen the roach warren. Also against late gas you need to send the zealot and stalker to harass. If for whatever reason your probe got no scouting intel, this poke will give you more information, as well as force lings, which you need to do to stay even with hatch first. I remember a time when ppl advocated the 1z 1stalker harass to keep equal economy with zerg, but then zerg seem to have gotten better at reacting to this and could more cost-effectively stop this. My experience with trying to do this also felt like it wasnt worth it - although im not sure what the solution is  So my question is, how do you adjust this opener for zergs who just drone really hard or 15 hatch? Is there something 'scarier' we can do to make them think twice? The two options i can think of is (1) 1 Gate FE as you suggest (skip the zealot, take the nexus on 26ish supply, then immediately forge/cannon/2nd gate then continue as normal with the build order) (2) Chrono 3-4zealots instead of building the forge, then attack around 6min mark, and behind the attack, expand and then build the forge --> not sure if this can work off this build, but the idea is used a lot for ppl going off FOrge FEs. | ||
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Batdad
Canada27 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 16 2011 09:14 bankai wrote: I remember a time when ppl advocated the 1z 1stalker harass to keep equal economy with zerg, but then zerg seem to have gotten better at reacting to this and could more cost-effectively stop this. My experience with trying to do this also felt like it wasnt worth it - although im not sure what the solution is So my question is, how do you adjust this opener for zergs who just drone really hard or 15 hatch? Is there something 'scarier' we can do to make them think twice? The two options i can think of is (1) 1 Gate FE as you suggest (skip the zealot, take the nexus on 26ish supply, then immediately forge/cannon/2nd gate then continue as normal with the build order) (2) Chrono 3-4zealots instead of building the forge, then attack around 6min mark, and behind the attack, expand and then build the forge --> not sure if this can work off this build, but the idea is used a lot for ppl going off FOrge FEs. If i scout hatch first, or in general a build that delays gas up to say 2.30 or 3.00 ish i like to do the double stalker opening, and expand off that. On 4 player maps it's kind of annoying though because you might not see it until after your core has gone down, and at that point 1gate fe is the best option. Alternatively, if his gas is insanely late (after 3.00) i think you can 4gate him and hit before ling speed even finishes, but i dont have a good pvz 4gate so i dont know the specifics of it. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
They take very fast 3rd ? Np, I make zealots and I push (from 2 gates that means like 3-4 zealots, which sux). By the time I arrive at his 3rd, he has a shitload of roaches, game ends. Last time I used this build, I was forced to build 2 robotics to pump colossus in order to survive to his push. Zerg got maxxed at 15 while I had 140, I've been nomatched with nomicro at all for him (I had probe lead the whole game) And it's always this, even if I outplay them or play the build perfectly, they just take fast 3rd, make roaches, kill you. Another thing is even if you force him to make units, people will be "hey thats good u forced units  ". Hell no thats the worst case scenario ever, since you'll have to wait like 5min of constant warp-ins just to deal with his army. During this time, he took 2 more expand, so its 5 bases against 2 (because obviously, if you take 3rd, you can't hold it or you die), and by the time you go out, he has T3.I was 6-0 few hours ago, now I'm like 8-11, sth like that, 2 losses against Terrans, rest against Zergs, while i was using this strat. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On November 13 2011 10:58 Sakray wrote: Too bad that Zerg begins to roll over this build in a blink of an eye. They take very fast 3rd ? Np, I make zealots and I push (from 2 gates that means like 3-4 zealots, which sux). By the time I arrive at his 3rd, he has a shitload of roaches, game ends. Last time I used this build, I was forced to build 2 robotics to pump colossus in order to survive to his push. Zerg got maxxed at 15 while I had 140, I've been nomatched with nomicro at all for him (I had probe lead the whole game) And it's always this, even if I outplay them or play the build perfectly, they just take fast 3rd, make roaches, kill you. Another thing is even if you force him to make units, people will be "hey thats good u forced units ". Hell no thats the worst case scenario ever, since you'll have to wait like 5min of constant warp-ins just to deal with his army. During this time, he took 2 more expand, so its 5 bases against 2 (because obviously, if you take 3rd, you can't hold it or you die), and by the time you go out, he has T3.I was 6-0 few hours ago, now I'm like 8-11, sth like that, 2 losses against Terrans, rest against Zergs, while i was using this strat. I must say I am having some similar troubles. The aggressive potential of this build is so delayed and specific that there really isn't that much that you'll be able to do against a Zerg that gimps their own econ a bit early on, to get map control, then compensates for it later on because you can't attack them any more. The build works a charm if the Zerg decides to hardcore macro and not build units. When they do build units, you're absolutely stuck in your base until you get Colossus, and at that point Zerg has a safe third up and running and is pumping even more units. The drones that they sacrificed early on to make those units will be rebuilt in one single production cycle, and Protoss is now in a really tough spot. One thing that I've been able to do is make a Stargate transition when I sense that the Zerg is trying to be aggressive, and go into a sort of 2gate Stargate expansion. The presence of Voidrays make their mass ling/roach quite useless and force them to devote even more resources and larvae to anti-air/hydra tech, when that's exactly the time they really would want to drone up. This might give you just enough time to get your third up or mass up enough gateway/robo stuff to survive. I'm not nearly good enough (or playing enough, lately) to figure out if this stargate option is a real possibility or just something I've managed to get away with when I shouldn't have, but it's worth experimenting with. No aggression-> progress as usual. Aggression->2gate stargate. | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
On November 13 2011 11:53 DarQraven wrote: No aggression-> progress as usual. Aggression->2gate stargate. Problem is that sometimes they just make unit no to make agression, but just, and I say JUST, crush your army if you want to pressure a bit. They make defensive army and sit out on their bases, so, if you scout no agression and push to kill the third, you're gonna lose your army, which means basicly losing the game. | ||
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DGenerate
Canada140 Posts
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charliexjustice
United States42 Posts
I have been losing to all ins like the one in the replay here though, I was wondering if you could tell me what I did wrong? I watched the replay several times and can't find any missed benchmarks. The main question I have is regarding the opener vs the all in. Feel free to comment on the rest of the game, but the first 8 minutes or so are what really puzzle me. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/59574 | ||
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Spacekyod
United States818 Posts
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charliexjustice
United States42 Posts
I'd love feedback on what does work in modern PVZ, openers and otherwise. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On November 13 2011 21:05 Sakray wrote: Problem is that sometimes they just make unit no to make agression, but just, and I say JUST, crush your army if you want to pressure a bit. They make defensive army and sit out on their bases, so, if you scout no agression and push to kill the third, you're gonna lose your army, which means basicly losing the game. True, but let's rephrase that to "aggression potential" then. If he's building enough units to put your army in danger, simply don't attack. No real need to pressure a Zerg if he's already building units of his own accord. The problem comes with Zerg's army head start and your lack of map control this causes. It basically eliminates options like the Blink timing outlined in this guide: - There won't be a third quick enough to do damage there, and Zerg will have enough army units to safely defend. - You are going to be stuck in your base until you have Colossus up, the 16 minute timing. - Zerg can easily recoup their drone count losses by dronespamming after they have army units and you can't really attack them anymore without committing. - Any number of dangerous tech switches (muta, corruptors, banelings) are possible and there's hardly anything you can do against them because you'll be bunkered up in your base. The Stargate switch I mentioned effectively means that Zerg will be forced to follow your course. If you can't directly pressure him, you can at least build units which forces him to get Hydra, spores, queens and/or air units. That delay is sometimes enough to get all your other tech up. | ||
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