EPT[G] The Structure of An Effective Opening Build - Page 3
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Xylarthen
United States137 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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anathema
Poland20 Posts
Starting out my bronze career from practicing 14/14 no matter what. | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
A variation that I've been trying out is an evo chamber and a 2nd gas at ~5:00 for +1 ranged attack (finishes just before ~8:00). Against protoss you get the option to put down a spore crawler in case of a 1-base air or DT attack, I also prefer a more roach heavy push if the opponent opted for a forge expand. Against zerg it makes the roaches 2-shot lings instead of 3-shot, which makes the push virtually unbeatable if the opponent only has ling/bling, it's also nice to have the upgrade advantage. Against terran I usually do 14 hatch, and the build is a bit different. But it's nice to have the evolution chamber to help block your front vs hellions and to fend of 1 base banshee. I usually use the evo for +1 melee or +1 armor instead though. | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
Any chance of you doing anything like this for ZvT or ZvZ? <3 | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 16 2011 13:55 Cyx. wrote: Also, on the topic of your guide being too blocky - it wasn't at all, I actually found the spoilers a bit annoying. Spoilers should be for extra information, videos, pictures, whatever - the main text of the guide shouldn't be in spoilers at all. I would almost suggest just paragraphing more and removing the spoilers altogether. Any chance of you doing anything like this for ZvT or ZvZ? <3 I have a few guides and a lecture on the way, but I may do a very in-depth analysis of some ZvT/ZvZ builds Have you read... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274426 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280526 | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
I have been stealing your ZvZ build a lot lately though, so you've helped me more than you could know in two matchups at least. =D | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 20 2011 10:36 Cyx. wrote: Actually, I have read those and forgot they were yours. They were really good but the super aggression I didn't like so much especially in ZvT. I was more hoping for more kind of really in-depth analysis like you did with this opening, this one was awesome. I have been stealing your ZvZ build a lot lately though, so you've helped me more than you could know in two matchups at least. =D ZvZ is by far my best matchup, because of that ling style. I'll do an in-depth build order/execution analysis of ZvT or ZvZ when time is available! | ||
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forevernerdy
England31 Posts
i think itd be cooler to do a post like this for each race, cuz with toss and terran im sure there are small subtle things but its different between the races | ||
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ins(out)side
220 Posts
Did I mention I love making 50 units at once? Gotta love them larvae EDIT: Having a solid build opening is important for all three races. Tang included the little details about scouting and having the larvae to make lings assuming you scout early pressure of some kind. So yeah, while Z does play more reactionary, high level players have all their timings lined up very crisply. Playing with tightened up build orders is definitely the way to go. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 28 2011 03:53 forevernerdy wrote: i think this is a good idea for terran and protoss players more then zerg tho, no?? i mean having a refined build order is gr8 but with zerg so many things throw u off and its more about approximate timings than exact timings, but for t and p it seems everyone uses the same solid builds i think itd be cooler to do a post like this for each race, cuz with toss and terran im sure there are small subtle things but its different between the races To an extent zerg actually needs a "refined build order" as much as terran and protoss. There will be differences, but the concepts in this thread can and should be applied to all races. With zerg there are usually switch points where you stop making drones and start making attacking units, with terran and toss you almost always keep constant worker production. When I'm playing aggressive or all-in zerg, I typically go by game sense and food timings - roach warren at 28, roaches from 28-44, lings from 44-52 etc. When I play macro zerg, though, I'm more likely to use the game timer, getting a 3rd by 5 minutes, 2gas by 5:45, roach warren and evo by 7min, nothing but drones until 7:45. | ||
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forevernerdy
England31 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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ins(out)side
220 Posts
It seems like you're teaching how to execute a build order well, versus actually formulating one? That is exactly what the thread was designed for and that's what it does. How in the hell is that misleading? The thread provides exactly what the title suggests: the structure of an effective opening build. Yes, he teaches you specifically how to execute the 14/14 as the prime example but the principles at play here apply to each race. IF you grasp the principles as demonstrated by the build, then its conceivable that you could design your own opening. You haven't been consuming large amounts of fluoridated water per chance, have you? | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On December 02 2011 06:18 ins(out)side wrote: That is exactly what the thread was designed for and that's what it does. How in the hell is that misleading? The thread provides exactly what the title suggests: the structure of an effective opening build. Yes, he teaches you specifically how to execute the 14/14 as the prime example but the principles at play here apply to each race. IF you grasp the principles as demonstrated by the build, then its conceivable that you could design your own opening. You haven't been consuming large amounts of fluoridated water per chance, have you? It's just that in can be interpreted as a Guide to structuring an effective build. It's labeled as a guide and with a slightly ambiguous title I suppose I felt that other could be a bit confused. Whatever works I suppose. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
I realize you can still hold it if your injects are wellsynced and you don't spam drones when you're in the dark, but maybe you have some general advice how to make this easier, since right now, I feel extremely vulnurable around the time I put down the roach warren. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 02 2011 17:59 Tobberoth wrote: I would also like some advice what to do against early pressure. I've been training the build a bit against GTAI (but it's quite similar to what I've been using standard), and I find that it's quite hard to hold if a protoss does early pushing with either zealots or stalkers. It's IMO quite hard to scout since even if I run 2 lings up the ramp to look at composition, the toss can easily hide his army and make it look like he's preparing to expand or go tech. Even if I see as he moves out, it takes way too long to build spine crawlers even if you start immediately, they won't even be 50% done when he reaches your base on many maps. I realize you can still hold it if your injects are wellsynced and you don't spam drones when you're in the dark, but maybe you have some general advice how to make this easier, since right now, I feel extremely vulnurable around the time I put down the roach warren. Well he's either expanding or doing a 1base all-in (typically a 4gate zealot/stalker). If you scout early with a drone and steal the gas like I recommend, you'll see his nexus energy - if he's not using any chronoboosts except the first 2 on probes, he's probably going to 4gate you. In that case, make sure you get a 3rd queen and start 3-4 spines at your expansion right away (The first warp-in of most 4gates hit at about 5:45-6:15minute, but you can delay this if your speedlings find his proxy pylon). You won't be able to get roaches out for the first wave or 2, you have to rely solely on spines and speedlings but when you can, move into roach/ling to defend. Once you've held the pressure, scout his expansion (You should have an overlord around there to fly in and see) and if he's going for an expansion, go for a big roach/ling push as he'll have too few sentries to hold it. If he's not expanding, get a spore at the front, +1, a few drones, and continue to build more roaches with evolution chambers in front of spines. The most important thing is that early drone scout - seeing his nexus energy and whether he took a 2nd gas. Another hint is if he builds a stalker instead of a sentry after his first zealot, but that's not ALWAYS a 4gate. | ||
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