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[G] The Structure of An Effective Opening Build

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 20:21:40
August 09 2011 13:51 GMT
#1
[G] The Structure of An Effective Opening Build

[image loading]


Example Replay

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Here is an example of the 14/14 Speedling Expand into Roach/Ling Push (ZvP)


Introduction: The Macro-Structure of an Opening Build

+ Show Spoiler +
Hello TL forum-goers, thank you very much for checking out my newest SC2 article. I'm a Grand Master level Zerg player and SC2 coach here to share some of the most important concepts to improvement. This is an opening I've used nearly 100% of ladder matches on my way to GM, and I want to stress that although we'll be looking at a Zerg build, the key concepts can be applied to the all-around game play of all the races. The reason this is such a relevant concept for all players is simple: I'm going to explain the macro-structure of the build – how all the pieces come together, which is not often studied in great detail but is, in my experience, incredibly important to success on the Starcraft II battlefield.

Many times when someone learns a build, they'll quickly look at the food timings and focus primarily on controlling their units. In reality, there is much more to a build than just food-relative timings. And you would think that it would make a lot more sense to start with the little pieces, to start with the micro, unit control, hotkeys, and build up and build up and then talk about the macro-structure. But that's actually backwards of what we need to do. And the reason is the large-scale structure of the build is WAY more important than any of the little things – the little things will come when the structure is there. How you organize your play is going to determine to a large degree whether your play is effective.
So, I'm going to remind you of that annoying advice that you probably got from your 5th or 6th grade English teacher when you first started essay writing – and that's “first you have to have an outline, then you have to have a rough draft, then you have to have a final draft, then you have to polish it.” And you know, this advice is pretty much right in SC2 as well.

However, most people don't work this way, most of my students do not sit down and first sketch an outline of a build, and then practice, and then make some alterations, and then practice, and then make a final build order. What they do is open a game and start playing, haha and it's what I often do also. However, if you're dedicated to learning and perfecting a build, this isn't the optimal way to proceed. Instead, the following steps should be utilized when trying to learn a new build:


Step One: Learn the Basic Structure (Bronze - Gold)

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Now when you're trying to do something really difficult, and I'll be honest learning a build is difficult, it puts very strong cognitive demands on your brain. So if you start with something too complex, the first things to fall apart are the details. This is why I recommend first learning the basics of a build order BEFORE getting too concerned with the subtle details.

When you start to do something that's a little bit beyond what you can easily handle, all your technique starts to fall apart, all the little things start to go – and this is what happens learning/practicing a build! You're trying to work out a very complex build, and YOU'RE thinking “I need help with my micro, I need help with my control, look at all these mistakes I'm making, etc”. The problem isn't with the micro or your control. The problem is that your brain is trying to process the complicated ideas that you're working on. And while all that mental energy is going into those ideas, the little things – the micro, the control – are starting to fall apart. So what we're trying to do when learning a build is to get our brains to help us rather than to get in our way. The best way that I know how to do this is through structure – if you figure out what the large-scale structure of your build is supposed to be, THEN you can slot in all the other little pieces and it'll work much more effectively than you might believe.

Look at the top pro Morrow: he's was known for opening 14gas/14pool nearly every single game he played Zerg. As a result, his responses to his opponents are always so crisply executed and he's rarely thrown off by things like early aggression and harassment. Clearly, a structured build is important to success and once you're comfortable with the opening, you'll be ready to proceed to the strategy. Here are the basics of the 14gas/14pool expand:

14/14Speedling 20Hatchery Expansion:
9Overlord
14Gas
14Pool
15Overlord
15Queen
17Lingsx4 (2 sets)
Start speed at 100Gas
19-20Drone
20Hatchery
19Drone
20Queen
22 Overlord
22-29Drones
29Roach Warren
30 Overlord
30-34 Drones
34 Overlord

These basic details, without any other information, should be practiced repetitively so that the order becomes second-nature. If you're frequently forgetting to get your second queen after your hatchery and an overlord right after, you're not ready to focus on anything more complicated than that. When the order in which you execute a build is flawless and you know every move before you make it, you're ready to move onto step two:


Step 2: Think Early Game Strategy (Gold - Plat)

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Now that you have your timings down, it's time to look at the specifics of when your buildings, units, and upgrades finish. Once you have this information, you're ready to focus on the strategy – what you're going to do with your units. In the case of the 14gas/14expand opening, your main concerns are holding any kind of early pressure and getting as much information as possible. What zerg players commonly do is drone scout fairly early (between 10-13 food) to determine if their opponent is cheesing. In the event of cheese, you would delay your expansion and mass lings, depending on the situation maybe get a spine or a warren/bane nest. Assuming a normal game without forced deviations from the above build, though.

Specific Timings to consider with the 14/14 Speedling Expand:
3:35 – 4Lings Spawn - You should kill your opponent's scouting worker. The first place you should check is your natural expansion area, then you should AGGRESSIVELY scout every nook and cranny where a probe could be hiding. You only need 1 zergling to scout the front of your opponent's base and 1-2 zergling(s) to take the xel naga(s). So, the other lings can be shift-A-clicked all around the potential proxy spots. You should only really feel safe from pressure against toss if you killed his scouting probe and have lings patrolling the front his base to prevent a probe from sneaking out.

4:00 – Hatchery – If lings spawn at 3:35, you may as well send a drone down the ramp about 5 seconds after the lings to build the hatchery at 4:00. If you're doing your job with your lings, you may be able to deny his scouting of your drone turning into a hatchery, which is always a plus. No need to give your opponent more information than needed.

4:45 – First Larva Inject Finishes – Your lings have been out for a full minute – there's no excuse not to have scouted the front of the opponent's base and to know whether you should be making lings or drones. Typically, you will want drones to 29.

5:05 – LingSpeed Finishes – Noticeably, this isn't long after your first larva inject. Thus, you can see why it's so important to scout the front with those opening lings: if he's doing early pressure, the lings/speed will finish at very close to the same time which provides you with excellent defense. If he isn't being aggressive, though, you should still have between 3-4 of your initial lings alive with speed. This is an excellent time to again scout up the ramp and see what you can find out. Also, keep scouting for proxies. Lings can now catch scouting probes/scvs VERY quickly so you should be very content to drone up with complete map control; don't mess this up by missing a spot with your lings and not scouting a proxy pylon.

6:05 – Roach warren finishes. It's important to have sufficient food/minerals saved to use this warren when it finishes, which is why you shouldn't drone higher than 34-36.


Step 3: Perfecting The Details (Plat+)

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Once you have practiced the basic build order, are able to maintain consistent timings on your units/buildings/upgrades from game to game, and are comfortable utilizing the basic scouting/anti-scouting techniques I mentioned in steps 1 and 2 , you're well on your way to optimally executing this build. Still, there is a LOT you can do to improve the efficiency of your opening, and it's time to fill in as many gaps as possible. The following is a very precise and detailed explanation of the speedling expand:

Detailed 14/14Speedling 20Hatchery Expansion:
Initial 6 Drones - The ideal split is 2/2/2, but if you can do 4/2 split or a 3/3 split you're fine. You should try your absolute best to mine from the patches closer to your hatchery as opposed to the ones in the back. You can even drone-micro to ensure the closest patches are being mined by 2 drones before the further ones.

First Overlord: Rally to a safe location, typically near your opponent's base. Set up your hotkeys (I make sure I have something hotkeyed on 1-5 in the early stages to keep my left hand active and I box the mineral line with my right hand to keep it equally busy. This is spam, but it's good practice for your mechanics too.)

6-9 Drones – These drones should first be individually rallied to mineral patches that aren't being mined. Once each mineral patch is being mined, make sure you're doubling up drones on the closer patches.

9 Overlord – Rally to your expansion area. You want this to be roughly over top of where your expansion hatch is going to be, that way you can see your ramp AND see behind the mineral line. (After he has a probe in your base, you should be looking at the bottom of your ramp where your overlord has vision because you may see the angle that his probe takes when he leaves your base, helping you determine where to ling scout first)

9-10 Drone – Again, rally to a patch that's closer to the hatchery to double-mine.

10-12 Drones (1:15) – One of the two drones that you start immediately when the overlord is finished can be ralled to double up on a mineral patch that's closer to your hatchery. The other drones should be hotkeyed as control group 1 (or whatever you use to scout) and sent immediately find your opponent's base. If you happen to scout anything unusual like cheese, you will make lings constantly to defend and you may delay your hatch or possibly build a warren or baneling nest depending on what style you play. Typically, though, you will just try to scout for their gas timings, what buildings they have, etc. so that you have an idea of whether you need to make more than the additional 4 lings.

12-13 Drone – This drone can be rallied to the gas – he's going to be your assimilator.

14 Gas (1:45) – As soon as that egg that put you at 13Food is a drone, he's rallied to the gas so build it right away. You should have 100 gas right when your pool finishes.
13-14 Drone – Rally to one of the closer patches

14 Pool (2:00) – Make sure your drone is standing directly in the middle of where your pool is going to be before you get to 200. You shouldn't lose a second of having to move your drone when you could be building your pool.

14-15 Drone – Can be rallied to the gas and used as one of the 3 to fill it up.

15 Overlord (2:35) – Rallied to the outskirts of your base or some other tried-and-true location. When your gas gets to 88, you should remove the returning 3 drones one at a time to mining minerals. Make sure that your drones are all double-mining the closest patches and that none of your patches have 3 mining (You'll frequently find that your drones will triple-mine the far away patches while single-mining the closest ones. You want to select one of the 3 mining a single patch and transfer it over and you may have to right click the patch a few times if he's stubborn and won't stay on it)

15 Queen (3:10) – Inject larva immediately when finished.

17 4xLings (3:10) (Refer to Step 2 for instructions on how to get maximum benefit from these lings) It's very important to periodically scout the front to look at what units their getting, how many they have, any additional buildings, expansion timing.

19 Zergling Speed (3:10)

19-20 Drone – Rally egg down the ramp to build your expansion hatchery.

20 Queen (4:15) – Spread one creep tumor and send to expansion immediately when finished.

22 Overlord (4:30)– Arguably the most important overlord in the game because you need this overlord to have enough supply to utilize your first larva inject. If you forget the overlord, and your opponent attacks, you can't make those 10 speedlings that you otherwise would. Also, it's a great time to pull ahead in the harvester count to getting blocked is a real setback. Remember, it's essential to have scouted the front of your opponent's base to get a feel for what their doing so that you can make lings if need be. Sometimes, if they're going hellions or 1base bane lings, you may opt to build a spinecrawler in your main to transfer to your expansion ramp when the hatch finishes.

22-29 Drones (4:30 5:00)- – You should be spamming your hatchery to make drones as soon as you have the larva – there really shouldn't be any time where larva aren't being turned immediately into drone eggs. Once you're at 29 food you can refill the gas. Make sure your main just has the 3 drones in gas and 16 drones mining minerals 2 per patch (You should still be keeping an eye for any drones tripling up on the far away patches). Other drones can be rallied to your expansion hatchery and yes, you may even end up long distance mining a tad.

29 Roach Warren (5:05) – Your second queen should have just finished, so you can lay down a creep tumour.

28-30 Drones – Should likely be rallied to expansion if your main is fully saturated. Keep in mind that a lot of early-aggressive builds (4gate, hellions) will arrive at your base around this time and it may be the only time you have to build additional lings/spines in order to defend in time for your roach warren to finish. This is a vulnerable time, but you have a solid economy - which is why scouting is so important, because you can AFFORD to build 3 spines and like 16 lings to defend, but if you don't have to you'd prefer to drone. For example, if they go 3gate expansion or 1rax expand, you're going to find your spines pretty worthless.

30 Overlord (5:35)– Rally to a safe location on outskirts of your base

30-34 Drones – Should likely rally to expansion, your creep tumor should be able to be spread once more.

34 Overlord (6:00) – Rally to a safe location. Warren finishes at 6:05.


Summary:

+ Show Spoiler +
Again, thank you everyone for taking the time to read my article and I look forward to reading your comments/questions below. In short, focus first on learning the basic food timings of the build. Next, think about the strategy/scouting techniques as well as exact in-game timings, and finally, you'll be ready to really focus on the subtle details of the 14/14 speedling expand. Use these tips and you'll quickly turn what is often deemed a boring, standard build from a straight jacket into a skeleton, with lots of room for improvement and variations. And believe me, if you practice learning a builds with these steps your overall gameplay will improve and remember that once the large-scale macro aspects of your build are perfected, you'll naturally spend more time focused on improving the smaller details.


Best of luck in your games, everyone!

-Tang
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Hattori_Hanzo
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore1229 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 15:26:21
August 09 2011 14:15 GMT
#2
I love the OT, good read.

I love the progress I'm making as Terran using the same structure, get the openings and push down to a T. It makes my growth as a player feel so much more organic than copying a build.

Differing fundamentals (as Terran) are:
- continue to build SCVs.
- build with extra cash
- expand as you push.
- use cost effective units behind structures as base defense,
- build supply depots at a rate as to constant production rate
Cauterize the area
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 14:25:19
August 09 2011 14:24 GMT
#3
thank you everyone for taking the time to read my article


Well, I'd rather thank you for the time you spent on this article!

Let's focus on the simple thing : thanks for putting down some details about the 14/14 build. I think I had a rough idea of them after playing that build several times and af course watching the replays of some Z grandmasters, but nothing as clearly laid out as this.

Now, for the rest (and main idea of the article) I can't stress how important it is to grab the fundamentals before diving in the details. It reminds me of Artosis describing how koreans trained (doing builds countless times so that they are a second nature, and they can focus on different things)

So, kudos to you!
Budha
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada60 Posts
August 09 2011 16:33 GMT
#4
Great read - Lots of details that you usually have to figure out by yourself, because other don't usually cover them
I especially like the division of the build according to your level! I hope we get to see a diamond section to help us get to masters
It's one thing (and a good thing) to steal a pro build, but quite another to understand why it's good, and how to execute properly, when you can't do it perfectly like a pro should.

Love the general idea, but I think that Bronze and Silvers should actually have a section of their own. For the lower bracket of players, understanding the game itself is more important than understanding a build. From personal experience coaching these lower tiers, I found that most of them don't fully comprehend that Starcraft is at it's core a game of Economy Management. They tend to over-analyze builds and focus on "their strat", when the strategy just isn't that important.
Mental experiment: Imagine Tang here against a random platinum player. No matter what build or unit composition Tang chooses, hes probably gonna beat any platinum player, without having to micro at all.

Also, I think the hotkey-ing should probably come before platinum. They are a good habit to have and I don't think they add much cognitive strain.

Congrats on the GM Tang
If it's worth killing, it's worth overkilling.
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
August 09 2011 16:34 GMT
#5
Great read, very descriptive and detailed. Keep it up/go for other races(Protoss) haha

Thanks for your time writing it.
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
August 09 2011 17:19 GMT
#6
Nice write up!

I still struggle to keep down a set opening build order in Masters so I wouldn't say you can't progress beyond gold w/out that

But this is a good reminder of how important it is to get the basics down. I really like that you went into great detail about each step in the food count instead of just leaving it in outline form. Nice work.
Noak3
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States236 Posts
August 09 2011 17:21 GMT
#7
Fantastic article, thanks so much for making it :D
Any chance you can do a writeup for what differs between what high master/grandmaster players do later in the game from low master/diamond level players? There are some key differences in play I think, and it would be awesome if those differences came out there in a tangible form.
I'll be showing this to my gold/plat friends though, should help them alot
Love and be kind in the face of adversity. If you stand up for others, they will stand up for you.
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
August 09 2011 18:40 GMT
#8
I do have one question actually. Assuming your opponent went a relatively safe build (3 gate expo etc.) do you still begin roach production after the Warren finishes even if you don't detect pressure? I've found that I often die to a sudden push around this time when I think I'm safe to drone for a little while longer.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 09 2011 18:55 GMT
#9
Personally, Shadrak, I like to be aggressive with roach/ling timings kind of like Losira so yes I do make roaches and then reinforce with lings. However, if you want to macro I would recommend getting an evo chamber by 6:45 and pumping out just a couple roaches to deal with 3gate pressure the rare event that toss pushes out with a small force.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
August 09 2011 19:06 GMT
#10
On August 10 2011 03:55 TangSC wrote:
Personally, Shadrak, I like to be aggressive with roach/ling timings kind of like Losira so yes I do make roaches and then reinforce with lings. However, if you want to macro I would recommend getting an evo chamber by 6:45 and pumping out just a couple roaches to deal with 3gate pressure the rare event that toss pushes out with a small force.


Interesting, what size of a roach force (w/ lings morphing) do you feel is large enough to pressure standard protoss play (3 gate expo)?

Personally I find when and how to pressure to be my weakest point right now. Mutaling was so straightforward in that respect that I guess I got spoiled
lalobabo
Profile Joined November 2010
42 Posts
August 09 2011 19:27 GMT
#11
HAWT
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 09 2011 23:02 GMT
#12
You probably want about 6-9 Roaches and the rest lings.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
hoax0000
Profile Joined May 2011
United States26 Posts
August 10 2011 00:17 GMT
#13
Great post, very informative. I will try to apply this to make games and hope it helps me to improve!
#hoaxstarcraft
steveo47829
Profile Joined July 2010
United States6 Posts
August 10 2011 01:32 GMT
#14
As a zerg player regularly checking TL for opening build orders, this is by the best one I've ever come across. Thanks Tang for the awesome post :D
Beer before chess leads to success. Chess before beer, shoulda had a beer.
chipman
Profile Joined February 2011
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-10 02:00:07
August 10 2011 01:34 GMT
#15
Thanks for the constructive post. I'm a masters level player so this really didn't add anything to what I already knew, but now I have another resource to link new players into.


If I have one suggestion, maybe consolidate this into spoilers to make it a more organized wall of text, and add an alternative opener in a spoiler (say for more advanced/intermediate players) vs another popular style of play(forge fast expand on shakuras/taldarim), and tell the player why it is a good opener judging from what they see, or what map they're playing on. Or not is fine too.

To the player asking about roach ling count/timing, the all in hits at ~7:30 with one less drone pump. The more economical approach gets maybe 8-10 more drones and hits around 7:50ish-8:00, and is designed to kill sentries, not deny the expo.

Will mention that a lot of protoss have figured out how to be more cost effective with building placement early on, to cut certain corners where they can from effective gas/pool timing scouting, and should crush either of these builds so long as they are privy to the fact that they are coming using either well placed cannons, or using the second/third gateway actually outside of the base in the walloff to allow the second warpgate cycle money for 3 quick stalkers (to dps the roaches).
Doesn't Afraid of Anything
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 10 2011 02:08 GMT
#16
Chipman I appreciate the tip, I found the text very block-ish too. How would you recommend organizing it?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
chipman
Profile Joined February 2011
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-10 05:55:15
August 10 2011 03:17 GMT
#17
You've got it, more or less ;0 I was already nitpicking, anything more would be just unnecessary from me, good post.
Doesn't Afraid of Anything
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
August 10 2011 14:16 GMT
#18
On August 10 2011 10:34 chipman wrote:

To the player asking about roach ling count/timing, the all in hits at ~7:30 with one less drone pump. The more economical approach gets maybe 8-10 more drones and hits around 7:50ish-8:00, and is designed to kill sentries, not deny the expo.

Will mention that a lot of protoss have figured out how to be more cost effective with building placement early on, to cut certain corners where they can from effective gas/pool timing scouting, and should crush either of these builds so long as they are privy to the fact that they are coming using either well placed cannons, or using the second/third gateway actually outside of the base in the walloff to allow the second warpgate cycle money for 3 quick stalkers (to dps the roaches).


Thanks for the info. I imagine this build transitions fairly well into a more standard roach infestor play anyway.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 10 2011 15:08 GMT
#19
You can do anything from there, Shadrak, that's the beauty of it. Drop your evo at 6:50 and go roaches and take a 3rd and do roach/infestor like you said is one option. Another is hydra/speedling play with either a creep highway, drop, or nydus. You can even do the ling/baneling drops/infestor, the sky is the limit.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
bruteMax
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada339 Posts
August 10 2011 15:48 GMT
#20
Great post! Just wish TangSC was terran but otherwise great insight on how to pragmatically approach improving.
I'm the benevolent dictator you've been looking for.
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
August 10 2011 18:34 GMT
#21
On August 11 2011 00:08 TangSC wrote:
You can do anything from there, Shadrak, that's the beauty of it. Drop your evo at 6:50 and go roaches and take a 3rd and do roach/infestor like you said is one option. Another is hydra/speedling play with either a creep highway, drop, or nydus. You can even do the ling/baneling drops/infestor, the sky is the limit.


Yeah I was playing around w/ this build and the followups to it last night and I'm amazed at how clean everything runs. Despite being in masters, I've always just kind of winged my openings as Zerg (I know...) but this really showed me how a crisp build can feel. Definitely helping me take my play to the next level. Thanks again for posting this.
steveo47829
Profile Joined July 2010
United States6 Posts
August 10 2011 18:39 GMT
#22
Tang, any chance you could make a similar post for a Hatch first build? I've been using this build in all matchups to get practice, but I feel a bit silly doing it vs. Terran.
Beer before chess leads to success. Chess before beer, shoulda had a beer.
Grippe87
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden59 Posts
August 10 2011 19:04 GMT
#23
Thanks for the good framework tang. I'm going to apply it to my ling infestor play. Basically I do the destiny type of build. The problem is though if you follow the BO rigidly you lose to all kinds of stuff. For example, vs Terran I often get faster geysers simply because I need infestors out at 9 minutes. Otherwise I get tank crushed. Similarly vs ffe I take a fast third and drone longer. A framework for the strategy gives you lots more options rather than needing to follow it exactly when copying a BO.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 10 2011 22:27 GMT
#24
I literally go hatch-first 0%. Sorry Steveo
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
chipman
Profile Joined February 2011
United States139 Posts
August 10 2011 23:43 GMT
#25
Going hatch first is a good way to get pylon/cannon walled. In order to prevent this, you have to patrol a drone at the wallof location and keep the first overlord you make over your natural to watch for activity. In the end it results in being less economic/safe than simply getting a pool earlier.


To do the all in you pretty much keep your drones on gas, or put them back in soon to get gas for the roaches.

Another opener for a macro map might be 11 overpool or 12 pool 18/whatever hatch. You can get the lings up in time for early pressure, quick queen, but delay the gas for a while- until 30-40 supply depending on what you scout.

No reason to get ultra fast ling speed vs a nexus first forge fast expand, in other words, if you're aiming for a macro game.





Doesn't Afraid of Anything
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 11 2011 17:19 GMT
#26
Hey guys, I added a link to an example/tutorial video to the Original post: http://www.youtube.com/user/ratanakdefectueux#p/c/4A0B7EB686026A9B/12/f7AVekGamxw
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Naeroon
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada166 Posts
August 11 2011 17:24 GMT
#27
Ty for the info once again Tang, your guides always have some amount of very viable info I can always keep with me
sTb
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany85 Posts
August 11 2011 17:42 GMT
#28
Nice post, helps a lot to master the different steps in a build. But I really wonder when do I have to upgrade to lair ? While attacking?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 12 2011 03:50 GMT
#29
It'll depend, sTb. Typically you delay your lair because you want to be on one gas for your push and steadily reinforce with lings. If you get enough drones early on, though, you can go for lair but often I'll take a 3rd before lair and go for an evo for emergency detection.
I'm going to experiment a lot more with doing a roach/ling push aimed only at sniping sentries and later doing a speed roach +1/infestor push. I'll get back to you on that!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 21:11:43
August 12 2011 07:11 GMT
#30
Good op!
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 12 2011 20:08 GMT
#31
It would be late for a roach/ling attack against Terran, but not toss. You would probably want to get your warren earlier in case of hellions, probably in the mid or early 20s. A third queen wouldn't hurt against that style of play either.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
lodik
Profile Joined August 2011
49 Posts
August 12 2011 22:28 GMT
#32
wow you don't realize how much this upped my game ima gold plat zerg and had trouble with toss when they fast expanded this build has now won me 6 games running and the only games i lose are very close and usually due to errors early on thanks man solid.
TehN00blet
Profile Joined July 2011
United States7 Posts
August 13 2011 04:10 GMT
#33
Im a Terran and this helped me not getting nit picky about the little things and try to just focus on the bigger picture.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 14 2011 00:30 GMT
#34
Yeah Iodik, I use 14/14 Expand very close to every game and I've found having that solid/safe opening to be so crucial to overall success. Also, it's not at all a bad build for economy.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Marokeas
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada13 Posts
August 17 2011 01:56 GMT
#35
Probably the best post I've ever read on explaining how to create your own style of play.
In life, unlike in chess, the game continues after checkmate.
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 12:09:49
August 18 2011 12:09 GMT
#36
Man this is a damn strong timing push. It doesn't feel as great on the bigger maps though (tal'darim) ?
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
August 18 2011 22:30 GMT
#37
Well on tal'darim they'll probably Forge FE and be prepared for this type of push with extra cannons. If you're aggressive on Tal'darim, you'll either want very early roaches with a warren at like 22-25food or a fast 14/14 baneling bust. If you want to macro, you need to take an early third to stay even/ahead.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Sc2Rabbit
Profile Joined August 2011
United States25 Posts
September 09 2011 14:12 GMT
#38
I do this quite frequently now and enjoy this opening. Thanks again Tang. Love your posts.
Live for the swarm!
cheekybanana
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey3 Posts
October 08 2011 14:03 GMT
#39
thanks a lot
ukas
Profile Joined December 2010
Mexico24 Posts
November 11 2011 00:38 GMT
#40
way cool man hope to see more posts like this it's awesome and very effective
Xylarthen
Profile Joined October 2010
United States137 Posts
November 11 2011 04:55 GMT
#41
If nothing else, this was a fantastic breakdown of a very powerful Zerg opening. I know everyone thinks they know it, but this delved into the nuances nicely. Kudos TangSC.
He who becomes a beast forgets the pain of being a man.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 12 2011 13:00 GMT
#42
No matter your level, there are always little ways to improve your early game. Your base economy is so important for the rest of the game, and the most you can maximize that in the first few minutes the stronger your early pushes are, the better your drone saturation will be, and you'll just sharpen your timings and keep very busy from the start to end of the game.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
anathema
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland20 Posts
November 15 2011 21:51 GMT
#43
very well explained, detailed and helpful post.
Starting out my bronze career from practicing 14/14 no matter what.
Cyx.
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada806 Posts
November 15 2011 22:46 GMT
#44
Thanks Tang, this guide is super sick. Probably the best Zerg opener guide I've seen, and as a plat zerg I'm gonna be hammering this out fairly hard over the next couple days... everyone thinks they know the build, but you laid it out really well and probably made a lot of lower-league protoss cry =)
VoirDire
Profile Joined February 2009
Sweden1923 Posts
November 15 2011 23:48 GMT
#45
A great guide, and a great timing attack that every zerg should have in his arsenal, it's great on the ladder maps with close spawns points that usually doesn't favor zerg, like xel'naga (and previous versions of shattered temple and metalopolis).

A variation that I've been trying out is an evo chamber and a 2nd gas at ~5:00 for +1 ranged attack (finishes just before ~8:00).

Against protoss you get the option to put down a spore crawler in case of a 1-base air or DT attack, I also prefer a more roach heavy push if the opponent opted for a forge expand.

Against zerg it makes the roaches 2-shot lings instead of 3-shot, which makes the push virtually unbeatable if the opponent only has ling/bling, it's also nice to have the upgrade advantage.

Against terran I usually do 14 hatch, and the build is a bit different. But it's nice to have the evolution chamber to help block your front vs hellions and to fend of 1 base banshee. I usually use the evo for +1 melee or +1 armor instead though.
Cyx.
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada806 Posts
November 16 2011 04:55 GMT
#46
Also, on the topic of your guide being too blocky - it wasn't at all, I actually found the spoilers a bit annoying. Spoilers should be for extra information, videos, pictures, whatever - the main text of the guide shouldn't be in spoilers at all. I would almost suggest just paragraphing more and removing the spoilers altogether.

Any chance of you doing anything like this for ZvT or ZvZ? <3
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 16 2011 14:31 GMT
#47
On November 16 2011 13:55 Cyx. wrote:
Also, on the topic of your guide being too blocky - it wasn't at all, I actually found the spoilers a bit annoying. Spoilers should be for extra information, videos, pictures, whatever - the main text of the guide shouldn't be in spoilers at all. I would almost suggest just paragraphing more and removing the spoilers altogether.

Any chance of you doing anything like this for ZvT or ZvZ? <3

I have a few guides and a lecture on the way, but I may do a very in-depth analysis of some ZvT/ZvZ builds
Have you read...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274426
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280526
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Cyx.
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada806 Posts
November 20 2011 01:36 GMT
#48
Actually, I have read those and forgot they were yours. They were really good but the super aggression I didn't like so much especially in ZvT. I was more hoping for more kind of really in-depth analysis like you did with this opening, this one was awesome.

I have been stealing your ZvZ build a lot lately though, so you've helped me more than you could know in two matchups at least. =D
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 24 2011 18:12 GMT
#49
On November 20 2011 10:36 Cyx. wrote:
Actually, I have read those and forgot they were yours. They were really good but the super aggression I didn't like so much especially in ZvT. I was more hoping for more kind of really in-depth analysis like you did with this opening, this one was awesome.

I have been stealing your ZvZ build a lot lately though, so you've helped me more than you could know in two matchups at least. =D

ZvZ is by far my best matchup, because of that ling style. I'll do an in-depth build order/execution analysis of ZvT or ZvZ when time is available!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
forevernerdy
Profile Joined October 2011
England31 Posts
November 27 2011 18:53 GMT
#50
i think this is a good idea for terran and protoss players more then zerg tho, no?? i mean having a refined build order is gr8 but with zerg so many things throw u off and its more about approximate timings than exact timings, but for t and p it seems everyone uses the same solid builds
i think itd be cooler to do a post like this for each race, cuz with toss and terran im sure there are small subtle things but its different between the races
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
ins(out)side
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-27 22:37:27
November 27 2011 22:32 GMT
#51
Having just started playing Zerg, this post in conjunction with the recent coaching session has done wonders for my Z play! Usually while getting coached on a build, I make all kinds of stupid mistakes and usually lose the game. However, doing this for the first time in accordance with the guidelines presented here by Tang I damn near beat a Diamond player (I'm Plat with Toss, certainly not Zerg)!! Sure, I was roach/ling all-inning versus a 3 gate expo on Metalopolis but still...felt GREAT to win while being coached instead of getting owned. Yeah, I know low apm style deathball Toss has its appeal..but I'm just bored to death with it. I enjoy being able to put on early pressure and at the very least set my opponent back while I take complete control of the map and overrun him with huge numbers of Zerg units.

Did I mention I love making 50 units at once? Gotta love them larvae

EDIT: Having a solid build opening is important for all three races. Tang included the little details about scouting and having the larvae to make lings assuming you scout early pressure of some kind. So yeah, while Z does play more reactionary, high level players have all their timings lined up very crisply. Playing with tightened up build orders is definitely the way to go.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 28 2011 20:18 GMT
#52
On November 28 2011 03:53 forevernerdy wrote:
i think this is a good idea for terran and protoss players more then zerg tho, no?? i mean having a refined build order is gr8 but with zerg so many things throw u off and its more about approximate timings than exact timings, but for t and p it seems everyone uses the same solid builds
i think itd be cooler to do a post like this for each race, cuz with toss and terran im sure there are small subtle things but its different between the races

To an extent zerg actually needs a "refined build order" as much as terran and protoss. There will be differences, but the concepts in this thread can and should be applied to all races. With zerg there are usually switch points where you stop making drones and start making attacking units, with terran and toss you almost always keep constant worker production.
When I'm playing aggressive or all-in zerg, I typically go by game sense and food timings - roach warren at 28, roaches from 28-44, lings from 44-52 etc. When I play macro zerg, though, I'm more likely to use the game timer, getting a 3rd by 5 minutes, 2gas by 5:45, roach warren and evo by 7min, nothing but drones until 7:45.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
forevernerdy
Profile Joined October 2011
England31 Posts
December 01 2011 13:26 GMT
#53
but what if you're pressured, then your whole plan goes to shit. like if a terran does two barracks scv opening or even 1barracks and bunker, your build is messed up because you have to build a spine and pull workers. then if they kill some drones with hellions, you're thrown off again...then they go banshees and you have to make more queens and spores and you're thrown off again...it seems impossible to have a refined build order as zerg.
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
December 01 2011 13:48 GMT
#54
Your title is kind of misleading...
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
December 01 2011 18:31 GMT
#55
In what way?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
December 01 2011 19:13 GMT
#56
It seems like you're teaching how to execute a build order well, versus actually formulating one?
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
ins(out)side
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
220 Posts
December 01 2011 21:18 GMT
#57
It seems like you're teaching how to execute a build order well, versus actually formulating one?


That is exactly what the thread was designed for and that's what it does. How in the hell is that misleading?

The thread provides exactly what the title suggests: the structure of an effective opening build. Yes, he teaches you specifically how to execute the 14/14 as the prime example but the principles at play here apply to each race. IF you grasp the principles as demonstrated by the build, then its conceivable that you could design your own opening.

You haven't been consuming large amounts of fluoridated water per chance, have you?

mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
December 01 2011 21:25 GMT
#58
On December 02 2011 06:18 ins(out)side wrote:
Show nested quote +
It seems like you're teaching how to execute a build order well, versus actually formulating one?


That is exactly what the thread was designed for and that's what it does. How in the hell is that misleading?

The thread provides exactly what the title suggests: the structure of an effective opening build. Yes, he teaches you specifically how to execute the 14/14 as the prime example but the principles at play here apply to each race. IF you grasp the principles as demonstrated by the build, then its conceivable that you could design your own opening.

You haven't been consuming large amounts of fluoridated water per chance, have you?



It's just that in can be interpreted as a Guide to structuring an effective build. It's labeled as a guide and with a slightly ambiguous title I suppose I felt that other could be a bit confused. Whatever works I suppose.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
December 02 2011 08:59 GMT
#59
I would also like some advice what to do against early pressure. I've been training the build a bit against GTAI (but it's quite similar to what I've been using standard), and I find that it's quite hard to hold if a protoss does early pushing with either zealots or stalkers. It's IMO quite hard to scout since even if I run 2 lings up the ramp to look at composition, the toss can easily hide his army and make it look like he's preparing to expand or go tech. Even if I see as he moves out, it takes way too long to build spine crawlers even if you start immediately, they won't even be 50% done when he reaches your base on many maps.

I realize you can still hold it if your injects are wellsynced and you don't spam drones when you're in the dark, but maybe you have some general advice how to make this easier, since right now, I feel extremely vulnurable around the time I put down the roach warren.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
December 02 2011 14:20 GMT
#60
On December 02 2011 17:59 Tobberoth wrote:
I would also like some advice what to do against early pressure. I've been training the build a bit against GTAI (but it's quite similar to what I've been using standard), and I find that it's quite hard to hold if a protoss does early pushing with either zealots or stalkers. It's IMO quite hard to scout since even if I run 2 lings up the ramp to look at composition, the toss can easily hide his army and make it look like he's preparing to expand or go tech. Even if I see as he moves out, it takes way too long to build spine crawlers even if you start immediately, they won't even be 50% done when he reaches your base on many maps.

I realize you can still hold it if your injects are wellsynced and you don't spam drones when you're in the dark, but maybe you have some general advice how to make this easier, since right now, I feel extremely vulnurable around the time I put down the roach warren.

Well he's either expanding or doing a 1base all-in (typically a 4gate zealot/stalker). If you scout early with a drone and steal the gas like I recommend, you'll see his nexus energy - if he's not using any chronoboosts except the first 2 on probes, he's probably going to 4gate you. In that case, make sure you get a 3rd queen and start 3-4 spines at your expansion right away (The first warp-in of most 4gates hit at about 5:45-6:15minute, but you can delay this if your speedlings find his proxy pylon). You won't be able to get roaches out for the first wave or 2, you have to rely solely on spines and speedlings but when you can, move into roach/ling to defend.
Once you've held the pressure, scout his expansion (You should have an overlord around there to fly in and see) and if he's going for an expansion, go for a big roach/ling push as he'll have too few sentries to hold it. If he's not expanding, get a spore at the front, +1, a few drones, and continue to build more roaches with evolution chambers in front of spines.
The most important thing is that early drone scout - seeing his nexus energy and whether he took a 2nd gas. Another hint is if he builds a stalker instead of a sentry after his first zealot, but that's not ALWAYS a 4gate.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
December 04 2011 19:32 GMT
#61
On December 02 2011 23:20 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2011 17:59 Tobberoth wrote:
I would also like some advice what to do against early pressure. I've been training the build a bit against GTAI (but it's quite similar to what I've been using standard), and I find that it's quite hard to hold if a protoss does early pushing with either zealots or stalkers. It's IMO quite hard to scout since even if I run 2 lings up the ramp to look at composition, the toss can easily hide his army and make it look like he's preparing to expand or go tech. Even if I see as he moves out, it takes way too long to build spine crawlers even if you start immediately, they won't even be 50% done when he reaches your base on many maps.

I realize you can still hold it if your injects are wellsynced and you don't spam drones when you're in the dark, but maybe you have some general advice how to make this easier, since right now, I feel extremely vulnurable around the time I put down the roach warren.

Well he's either expanding or doing a 1base all-in (typically a 4gate zealot/stalker). If you scout early with a drone and steal the gas like I recommend, you'll see his nexus energy - if he's not using any chronoboosts except the first 2 on probes, he's probably going to 4gate you. In that case, make sure you get a 3rd queen and start 3-4 spines at your expansion right away (The first warp-in of most 4gates hit at about 5:45-6:15minute, but you can delay this if your speedlings find his proxy pylon). You won't be able to get roaches out for the first wave or 2, you have to rely solely on spines and speedlings but when you can, move into roach/ling to defend.
Once you've held the pressure, scout his expansion (You should have an overlord around there to fly in and see) and if he's going for an expansion, go for a big roach/ling push as he'll have too few sentries to hold it. If he's not expanding, get a spore at the front, +1, a few drones, and continue to build more roaches with evolution chambers in front of spines.
The most important thing is that early drone scout - seeing his nexus energy and whether he took a 2nd gas. Another hint is if he builds a stalker instead of a sentry after his first zealot, but that's not ALWAYS a 4gate.

Well, I was speaking mainly of 2-3 warpgates, build 2-3 stalkers and push, forcing you to make lings very early.

Anyway, I've gotten better at defending early pushes and I've now noticed my main issue: air. I played a bo7 with my diamond friend, he lost to the ling roach push the first game, then owned me every game afterwards. It just seems that even if you steal gas and try to get the roaches out really quickly, the toss can easily have his stargates running already, and once they are out, you can't really do much. You can put down an evo chamber and spit out spores, but that ruins your economy and the toss has no reason to attack you, they just need to keep you on two bases and win. You lose 100% of your map control since lings/roaches are kinda bad vs air.

How do you transition out of the roaches? Do you go hydras defensively and give the toss map control, or do you go into two base muta? I feel it's very hard to take a third since the toss can attack you before it's up, so you really can't get the drones to use it.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
December 05 2011 20:45 GMT
#62
well if you're doing the roach/ling midgame push, it's even better if he tries to do 3gate pressure because then you're fighting him without cannons whereas you'd normally be fighting him in his base. As for stargate, sometimes players will 1gate expand into stargate and you can usually delay the expansion with your push.
Keep in mind that while voidrays are strong against roachling, that's a lot of resources that aren't giong into a ground army so if you're pressuring hard enough sometimes you'll still kill him outright or at least force him to be defensive with voidrays, which gives you time to take a 3rd. I like hydra/roach/ling pushes (with a nydus outside the protoss base) in the midgame against stargate protoss sinceit's hard for them to hold without colossus.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
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