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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On August 09 2011 03:19 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote:
oops, double post. I'll ask a question, then--
How do you leapfrog your tanks when moving onto creep? Do you stay a little off of it, or scan and take it out with marines? Basically, how do you avoid getting caught unsieged during a tank push TvZ. Do you walk a marine way in front? You leapfrog by doing just what it sounds like. Siege up some tanks first and then take the rest and siege them up in front of them. Now you are safe! Take the tank in the back and move him to the front and siege up then repeat the process until you are at your opponent's army. Leapfrogging is a great way to contain your opponent and at the same time push forward. Never unsiege too many tanks at the same time!! That'll lead to many raging OP-screams. By leapfrogging it's hard to get caught off guard. Patience is a factor though. Everytime you advance with your tanks kill the creep tumors! It helps alot.
Its also very helpful to know you can queue siege. Unsiege, right click where you want them to go, shift siege. Then repeat with the now back on when its there. Its a lot less micro taxing if you dont have to resiege manually
Double post oops
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 02:59 Squigly wrote:
If its been answered sorry, but 3 gate proxy stargate seems completely unstoppable. Ive been watching streams where master Ts dont even beat it. Ive literally never once seen a well controlled one lose. At any level.
Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids.
The only thing ive ever got to work is mass base trade The difference between proxy stargate and fast DTs is that proxy stargate needs to save up chrono boost to be effective. Proxy stargate scouts as fast double gas, low sentry count, and saved up chrono boost. If he's not saving chrono boost, the void rays will come out slowly and you'll be able to react well-- or he's going DTs and doesn't need it in the first place. Stargate attack is almost build order loss to a 1-1-1 which can get a fast viking, and there are several things you can do to deal with it (bunkered marines at the top of a ramp, for example, or last-hitting your own buildings to stop a VR bust from getting charged) if you went for a lower-tech route. If you went for a 1 rax fast expand, you will struggle mightily to defeat it. I dont want to have to 1-1-1. I 2 rax FE and it seems to be hard countered by proxy SG 3 gate all in. I posted in the P help thread what people have issues with it, and i got the answer "Issues, normally they just die" lol Also with the chrono, you save up chrono for DTs as well dont u? You save it to chrono the WG research. The issues seems to be 3 gate in the front voids in the back if ive prepared well. And if not then i get rolled by an a move. Id like 1 replay of a high level player doing it well and losing. Ive been watching master level streams and they lose to it every time.
The difference is that the chronos you save in 3 gate DTs are saved early, and you can see it saved up with your scv scout. By the time your hellion scout or scan happens, he's already spending most of his chronos on warpgate. The chronos you see saved for 3 gate stargate are used somewhat later, after the stargate finishes, on the void rays, so when your scan or hellion scout happens, you'll see he still has his chronos-- which means he's not using them on warpgate.
2 rax FE should be fine against a void ray allin. The most important thing is to know whether or not he's expoing. If he's not you need to lay down 2 bunkers at your front, and put any marauders you have there-- ideally, 1 marauder 2 marines in each bunker, to stop pokes and void ray harass. Produce pure marines. Stop mining gas, lay down more rax, etc and pump pure marine unless you're already teching to starport for some reason. Dont' be afraid to pull scvs to repair, since he's allinning. I'll take a look this evening and see if I can't find you some replays of this.
EDIT: If you haven't started stimpack research, keep on mining gas until you can. Once you have stimpack you're all good.
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On August 09 2011 03:28 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote:On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 02:59 Squigly wrote:
If its been answered sorry, but 3 gate proxy stargate seems completely unstoppable. Ive been watching streams where master Ts dont even beat it. Ive literally never once seen a well controlled one lose. At any level.
Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids.
The only thing ive ever got to work is mass base trade The difference between proxy stargate and fast DTs is that proxy stargate needs to save up chrono boost to be effective. Proxy stargate scouts as fast double gas, low sentry count, and saved up chrono boost. If he's not saving chrono boost, the void rays will come out slowly and you'll be able to react well-- or he's going DTs and doesn't need it in the first place. Stargate attack is almost build order loss to a 1-1-1 which can get a fast viking, and there are several things you can do to deal with it (bunkered marines at the top of a ramp, for example, or last-hitting your own buildings to stop a VR bust from getting charged) if you went for a lower-tech route. If you went for a 1 rax fast expand, you will struggle mightily to defeat it. I dont want to have to 1-1-1. I 2 rax FE and it seems to be hard countered by proxy SG 3 gate all in. I posted in the P help thread what people have issues with it, and i got the answer "Issues, normally they just die" lol Also with the chrono, you save up chrono for DTs as well dont u? You save it to chrono the WG research. The issues seems to be 3 gate in the front voids in the back if ive prepared well. And if not then i get rolled by an a move. Id like 1 replay of a high level player doing it well and losing. Ive been watching master level streams and they lose to it every time. The difference is that the chronos you save in 3 gate DTs are saved early, and you can see it saved up with your scv scout. By the time your hellion scout or scan happens, he's already spending most of his chronos on warpgate. The chronos you see saved for 3 gate stargate are used somewhat later, after the stargate finishes, on the void rays, so when your scan or hellion scout happens, you'll see he still has his chronos-- which means he's not using them on warpgate. 2 rax FE should be fine against a void ray allin. The most important thing is to know whether or not he's expoing. If he's not you need to lay down 2 bunkers at your front, and put any marauders you have there-- ideally, 1 marauder 2 marines in each bunker, to stop pokes and void ray harass. Produce pure marines. Stop mining gas, lay down more rax, etc and pump pure marine unless you're already teching to starport for some reason. Dont' be afraid to pull scvs to repair, since he's allinning. I'll take a look this evening and see if I can't find you some replays of this. EDIT: If you haven't started stimpack research, keep on mining gas until you can. Once you have stimpack you're all good.
Lol they dont expo. Noone 1 base all ins and expos. I know theory how to beat it. But i have seen about 20 games of master GM level of it, and literally not once has the T won when starting 2 rax expo. Im not claiming OP. Id just like to see 1 replay. just 1. So i can copy what was done to hold it.
Also standard scan is 7 min. I think this hits at about 8. you have 1 min to prepare. Thats not really enough.
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On August 09 2011 03:46 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:28 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote:On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 02:59 Squigly wrote:
If its been answered sorry, but 3 gate proxy stargate seems completely unstoppable. Ive been watching streams where master Ts dont even beat it. Ive literally never once seen a well controlled one lose. At any level.
Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids.
The only thing ive ever got to work is mass base trade The difference between proxy stargate and fast DTs is that proxy stargate needs to save up chrono boost to be effective. Proxy stargate scouts as fast double gas, low sentry count, and saved up chrono boost. If he's not saving chrono boost, the void rays will come out slowly and you'll be able to react well-- or he's going DTs and doesn't need it in the first place. Stargate attack is almost build order loss to a 1-1-1 which can get a fast viking, and there are several things you can do to deal with it (bunkered marines at the top of a ramp, for example, or last-hitting your own buildings to stop a VR bust from getting charged) if you went for a lower-tech route. If you went for a 1 rax fast expand, you will struggle mightily to defeat it. I dont want to have to 1-1-1. I 2 rax FE and it seems to be hard countered by proxy SG 3 gate all in. I posted in the P help thread what people have issues with it, and i got the answer "Issues, normally they just die" lol Also with the chrono, you save up chrono for DTs as well dont u? You save it to chrono the WG research. The issues seems to be 3 gate in the front voids in the back if ive prepared well. And if not then i get rolled by an a move. Id like 1 replay of a high level player doing it well and losing. Ive been watching master level streams and they lose to it every time. The difference is that the chronos you save in 3 gate DTs are saved early, and you can see it saved up with your scv scout. By the time your hellion scout or scan happens, he's already spending most of his chronos on warpgate. The chronos you see saved for 3 gate stargate are used somewhat later, after the stargate finishes, on the void rays, so when your scan or hellion scout happens, you'll see he still has his chronos-- which means he's not using them on warpgate. 2 rax FE should be fine against a void ray allin. The most important thing is to know whether or not he's expoing. If he's not you need to lay down 2 bunkers at your front, and put any marauders you have there-- ideally, 1 marauder 2 marines in each bunker, to stop pokes and void ray harass. Produce pure marines. Stop mining gas, lay down more rax, etc and pump pure marine unless you're already teching to starport for some reason. Dont' be afraid to pull scvs to repair, since he's allinning. I'll take a look this evening and see if I can't find you some replays of this. EDIT: If you haven't started stimpack research, keep on mining gas until you can. Once you have stimpack you're all good. Lol they dont expo. Noone 1 base all ins and expos. I know theory how to beat it. But i have seen about 20 games of master GM level of it, and literally not once has the T won when starting 2 rax expo. Im not claiming OP. Id just like to see 1 replay. just 1. So i can copy what was done to hold it. Also standard scan is 7 min. I think this hits at about 8. you have 1 min to prepare. Thats not really enough.
8 min? By that time my stim is close to finished. If I can stall them a little and get stim it's over for him.
Stimmed marines is the "counter".
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:46 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:28 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote:On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 02:59 Squigly wrote:
If its been answered sorry, but 3 gate proxy stargate seems completely unstoppable. Ive been watching streams where master Ts dont even beat it. Ive literally never once seen a well controlled one lose. At any level.
Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids.
The only thing ive ever got to work is mass base trade The difference between proxy stargate and fast DTs is that proxy stargate needs to save up chrono boost to be effective. Proxy stargate scouts as fast double gas, low sentry count, and saved up chrono boost. If he's not saving chrono boost, the void rays will come out slowly and you'll be able to react well-- or he's going DTs and doesn't need it in the first place. Stargate attack is almost build order loss to a 1-1-1 which can get a fast viking, and there are several things you can do to deal with it (bunkered marines at the top of a ramp, for example, or last-hitting your own buildings to stop a VR bust from getting charged) if you went for a lower-tech route. If you went for a 1 rax fast expand, you will struggle mightily to defeat it. I dont want to have to 1-1-1. I 2 rax FE and it seems to be hard countered by proxy SG 3 gate all in. I posted in the P help thread what people have issues with it, and i got the answer "Issues, normally they just die" lol Also with the chrono, you save up chrono for DTs as well dont u? You save it to chrono the WG research. The issues seems to be 3 gate in the front voids in the back if ive prepared well. And if not then i get rolled by an a move. Id like 1 replay of a high level player doing it well and losing. Ive been watching master level streams and they lose to it every time. The difference is that the chronos you save in 3 gate DTs are saved early, and you can see it saved up with your scv scout. By the time your hellion scout or scan happens, he's already spending most of his chronos on warpgate. The chronos you see saved for 3 gate stargate are used somewhat later, after the stargate finishes, on the void rays, so when your scan or hellion scout happens, you'll see he still has his chronos-- which means he's not using them on warpgate. 2 rax FE should be fine against a void ray allin. The most important thing is to know whether or not he's expoing. If he's not you need to lay down 2 bunkers at your front, and put any marauders you have there-- ideally, 1 marauder 2 marines in each bunker, to stop pokes and void ray harass. Produce pure marines. Stop mining gas, lay down more rax, etc and pump pure marine unless you're already teching to starport for some reason. Dont' be afraid to pull scvs to repair, since he's allinning. I'll take a look this evening and see if I can't find you some replays of this. EDIT: If you haven't started stimpack research, keep on mining gas until you can. Once you have stimpack you're all good. Lol they dont expo. Noone 1 base all ins and expos. I know theory how to beat it. But i have seen about 20 games of master GM level of it, and literally not once has the T won when starting 2 rax expo. Im not claiming OP. Id just like to see 1 replay. just 1. So i can copy what was done to hold it. Also standard scan is 7 min. I think this hits at about 8. you have 1 min to prepare. Thats not really enough.
Well, yeah, but part of scouting stargate is scouting the non-expo. Look, if your point is "when someone is unprepared they lose to X all-in" then you are correct. How do you even prepare if you can't tell if he's all-inning or not? Part of it is scouting whether or not he expos. You say standard scan is 7 minutes, and the push hits at 8? Well, any non-allin protoss build gets an expo before 6:30. If you can scout his expo, that gives you an extra 30 seconds, which might be enough. If you can count his chrono boosts and gas units, that could give you even more time when you deduce the stargate all-in is coming.
Can an unprepared player hold an all-in while doing a semi-safe fast expand? no. But if he scouts it coming, we have a different story altogether.
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Hey, I just switched over to terran, and i need a good build order for TvP and TvT. For TvZ, i already use 2rax into blue flame, but i dont want to try ladder until i feel safe against both Protoss and Terran.
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I have a problem, not with my build order or macro, but with a micro situation.
I have been playing one of my friends and he likes too do baneling bombs, you know, dropping banes from overlords on your army. I cant for the sake of my life figure out what to do. He also goes roach and lings and likes to attack my tanks while i am trying to keep marines from dying. this is also 2 base v 2 base (yeah we are that bad)
What I have tried:
Splitting marines around tanks to protect tanks as well as minimize bane splash.
Focusing overlords with stimmed marines (somewhat successful)
Stim marines and run around picking off overlords a couple at a time (least successful because he brings in his army and focuses tanks while im trying to keep my marines alive.)
Please help me.
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While I appreciate all the theory crafting about the VR all in. The point stands that the vast majority of P who use this even at the highest levels win. And i have never once seen it lose.
If people dont have a replay of it being executed well and losing, please post it. If not please stop theorycrafting. The "Stimmed marines is the counter" type posts are, well, useless. Im aware marines counter voids.
Cheers for the attempt at help though.
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On August 09 2011 04:37 RyeK wrote:
Hey, I just switched over to terran, and i need a good build order for TvP and TvT. For TvZ, i already use 2rax into blue flame, but i dont want to try ladder until i feel safe against both Protoss and Terran.
TvT:
cloak banshee:
rax first then take gas
constant marine production from rax
@ 100 gas fact, then take 2nd gas
fact is done -> port, then add tech lab on fact
you can squeeze in a hellion if you want
once port is done switch tech lab to port and start cloak and banshee
halt marine production and wait for 400 for cc
TvP
1 rax fe
basically 1 rax into cc without taking gas
if you want to cut marines to get a faster cc, you make 1 marine then you dont need the depot at 16 supply (cc first before the supply). If you make marines you need that depot. When you have 300 make 2 extra rax, then take both your gases.
add tech lab when you have the gas on 1 rax and start stim and rauders from this one
other raxes make marines until you feel safe to add addons.
go down your ramp after making a scout on protoss
you should scout him before your orbital on ur extra CC is done.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 09 2011 04:58 Squigly wrote:
While I appreciate all the theory crafting about the VR all in. The point stands that the vast majority of P who use this even at the highest levels win. And i have never once seen it lose.
If people dont have a replay of it being executed well and losing, please post it. If not please stop theorycrafting. The "Stimmed marines is the counter" type posts are, well, useless. Im aware marines counter voids.
Cheers for the attempt at help though.
Look, you can say what you want about theorycrafting, but in your original question:
Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids.
and talked about how
On August 09 2011 03:46 Squigly wrote:Also standard scan is 7 min. I think this hits at about 8. you have 1 min to prepare. Thats not really enough.
So I gave you information on how to scout and have more than 1 minute to prepare, and how to differentiate it from a fast DT build. I think that with 2 minutes to prepare this is eminently holdable-- you seem to think so too, or at least that 1 minute isn't enough. Even if my discussion of how to hold a VR all-in wasn't helpful, certainly my discussion on how to scout it and have more time to prepare was? I'm even assuming that during this whole thing you never actually see the stargate since it's well-hidden.
How to actually control your units and beat it is really up to you, and I can't theorycraft you a way to outmicro an opponent who has solid micro. If you're playing at a high master level and getting outmicroed, there's no much to say to that. In fact, probably even with the same skill in micro the protoss player would win, since this is an allin attacking a fast expand-- the terran player has to wait for the protoss player to make a minor error in kiting or something and kill his ray, or deal hull damage, or something.
You are right though when you say that usually protoss player who plays aggressively will try to bust before you have a ball of stimmed marines that can stop a void ray, so it's definitely unhelpful to say "use stimmed marines" or something similar, when the issue is stabilizing with a solid marine count against this all-in.
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On August 09 2011 05:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 04:58 Squigly wrote:
While I appreciate all the theory crafting about the VR all in. The point stands that the vast majority of P who use this even at the highest levels win. And i have never once seen it lose.
If people dont have a replay of it being executed well and losing, please post it. If not please stop theorycrafting. The "Stimmed marines is the counter" type posts are, well, useless. Im aware marines counter voids.
Cheers for the attempt at help though. Look, you can say what you want about theorycrafting, but in your original question: Show nested quote +Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids. and talked about how Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:46 Squigly wrote:Also standard scan is 7 min. I think this hits at about 8. you have 1 min to prepare. Thats not really enough.
So I gave you information on how to scout and have more than 1 minute to prepare, and how to differentiate it from a fast DT build. I think that with 2 minutes to prepare this is eminently holdable-- you seem to think so too, or at least that 1 minute isn't enough. Even if my discussion of how to hold a VR all-in wasn't helpful, certainly my discussion on how to scout it and have more time to prepare was? I'm even assuming that during this whole thing you never actually see the stargate since it's well-hidden. How to actually control your units and beat it is really up to you, and I can't theorycraft you a way to outmicro an opponent who has solid micro. If you're playing at a high master level and getting outmicroed, there's no much to say to that. In fact, probably even with the same skill in micro the protoss player would win, since this is an allin attacking a fast expand-- the terran player has to wait for the protoss player to make a minor error in kiting or something and kill his ray, or deal hull damage, or something. You are right though when you say that usually protoss player who plays aggressively will try to bust before you have a ball of stimmed marines that can stop a void ray, so it's definitely unhelpful to say "use stimmed marines" or something similar, when the issue is stabilizing with a solid marine count against this all-in.
While i dont really understand/agree with your scouting info, i see it was helpful if correct. I still dont understand how to differentiate it form DTs though. From the scv scout we agree if looks identical? IF not please correct me.
With my 2 rax pressure and my scv i leave to check his expo, i see no expo by 630. I have to immediately back off otherwise i lose my army and am screwed. Should i immediately scan next possible time?
Besides holding it which seems hard even when scouted. I sitll dont get how you expect me to scout it. How will i ever have 2 min to prepare?
EDIT: While i may not sound it, i am actually very grateful for your input 
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:05 Squigly wrote:While i dont really understand/agree with your scouting info, i see it was helpful if correct. I still dont understand how to differentiate it form DTs though. From the scv scout we agree if looks identical? IF not please correct me. With my 2 rax pressure and my scv i leave to check his expo, i see no expo by 630. I have to immediately back off otherwise i lose my army and am screwed. Should i immediately scan next possible time? Besides holding it which seems hard even when scouted. I sitll dont get how you expect me to scout it. How will i ever have 2 min to prepare? EDIT: While i may not sound it, i am actually very grateful for your input
Ok, during SCV scout, DT and stargate look the same, and they also look the same as 3 gate sentry expand, blink stalker rush, and 2 gate robo expand. During SCV scout the only thing you can really determine is whether or not he takes a 2nd gas before his stalker finishes and your SCV has to leave-- and a quick 2nd gas could be basically anything.
Ideally, you want to scout between 6:00 and 6:30, and you're checking for 2 things:
1) did he expo and EDIT:What is his sentry count (sentry 4gate or delayed sentry expo are possible as well if he's a cautious guy or weird and likes to attack with sentries)
2) what's he doing with his chrono boost
Assuming you can tell that he didn't expo, you know it's an all-in. Since you know he has two gasses (from scv scout), you know it's a tech all-in.
In my 1 rax 1 fact build order, I do this by sending a hellion out at 5:45, and it scouts him during the time when he has only 2 gateway units. If he's going 3 gate stargate, at this point he is sitting on a lot of chrono boost. If he is going 3 gate DTs, he's already used his chrono boost for getting warpgate done faster. That's how I tell it apart. Instead of using a hellion, you can proxy a scout rax (just as reliable, doesn't need factory tech) or go for a scan (will tell you about chrono boost, but you'll need to poke his front to find out about expo in addition to this).
This scouting happens at 6:00, 2 minutes before 8:00. The most important part of TvP is scouting aggressively since it's on the terran player to counter Protoss units from the get-go all the way to the late game (ghosts and vikings, etc etc).
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So bascially poke the ramp. If they FF you out so you cant see a thing, then theyve wasted gas on sentries and they are still in their base so you have a while.
If no FF you get to see their unit comp compeltely and infer from that. You wont see what they are using chrono on obv as you die attacking up a ramp so its just a suicide marine.
Pretty much i still dont think you can distinguish between DT and SG, however the response just happens to be eng bay for both.
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Guys, I am a Terran master, and these times I just can't handle Protoss pushes and TvZ.
Against Protoss i fast expand, and then they often go for like drops with Stalkers, Zealots, sometimes DT's, or they push at front and force field my bunkers. What is the best way to counter that ? I try my best putting turrets and bunkers, but it's too hard.
In TvZ, i normally play bio, but recently i played a lot full mech and it works fine, but late game is just so hard... I put Ravens, Ghosts, etc... But everytime i don't have enough vikings.
I played bio again and it was horrible. I just was sitting in the middle of the map, and I was like "what do I do now...". I got melt...
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How do you guys stay motivated in a late game t v t when you just have two roving armies of tanks chasing each other? I just get so bored that I resort to something stupid/suicidal that ends up eventually failing to just the regular swarm of vikings/tanks
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 09 2011 06:40 Squigly wrote:
So bascially poke the ramp. If they FF you out so you cant see a thing, then theyve wasted gas on sentries and they are still in their base so you have a while.
If no FF you get to see their unit comp compeltely and infer from that. You wont see what they are using chrono on obv as you die attacking up a ramp so its just a suicide marine.
Pretty much i still dont think you can distinguish between DT and SG, however the response just happens to be eng bay for both.
Okay, so I don't face stargate all-in often on ladder, but here's what I got. I don't recommend turrets vs VRs, btw; I think the money is better spent on bunkers.
Blazinghand vs Wintersky Master TvP
So in this match, I face a Master League Protoss player on the ladder. I open with Warden's TvP and use scouting to determine that he's using a non-DT all-in.
Grade: B-, Perfect defense, late expo
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-225468.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Game Summary] +I open 1-1-1 (adapted from Warden's TvP) and use both a hellion scout and a proxy rax to determine that there's some sort of shenanigans going on. Due to saved up chrono boost, I'm not worried about DTs, and continue producing marines and begin a viking. I continue producing tanks to defeat his ground army. He realizes I have a starport and decides to attack before I can get a viking out. He is unsuccessful and I can begin an expo uncontested. By this point he's so far behind that the rest of the game is irrelevant.
Blazinghand vs Artanis Diamond TvP
I had to go pretty far back to find one where I opened 1 rax FE-- this one is against a Diamond league player -_-;; In this match I open with a 1 rax concussive expand.
Grade: C, Barely successful defense against a merely Diamond Protoss.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-225472.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Game Summary] +My expo starts at 4:30, I push out with my concussive pressure at 5:00, slapping down additional rax and preparing for mass bio play. My opponent pushes with his scouting poke at the same time, and at 5:10 the armies "pass in the night", so to speak. At 5:25 I'm in his base and he has turned around. At 5:40 I spot his stargate, just as it finishes. By 5:45 I've killed 3 workers, but his poke is back home, and I lose my marauders and marine (but not before taking out one final probe).
I begin producing marines and extra barracks. At 8:00, not having detected a push, I begin lowground bunkers. He attacks at 8:30 forcing my CC back into my base, before the bunkers are finished. After a brief pause for warpins at 9:00, he tries to bust. I take down his VR at 9:30, and after that there's very little he can do besides harass my expo. I try some flying OC shenanigans, but double mules vs 1 base toss and stimpack win the game.
Hopefully these give some insight into how to scout and beat VR all-in.
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On August 09 2011 11:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 06:40 Squigly wrote:
So bascially poke the ramp. If they FF you out so you cant see a thing, then theyve wasted gas on sentries and they are still in their base so you have a while.
If no FF you get to see their unit comp compeltely and infer from that. You wont see what they are using chrono on obv as you die attacking up a ramp so its just a suicide marine.
Pretty much i still dont think you can distinguish between DT and SG, however the response just happens to be eng bay for both.
Okay, so I don't face stargate all-in often on ladder, but here's what I got. I don't recommend turrets vs VRs, btw; I think the money is better spent on bunkers. Blazinghand vs Wintersky Master TvPSo in this match, I face a Master League Protoss player on the ladder. I open with Warden's TvP and use scouting to determine that he's using a non-DT all-in. Grade: B-, Perfect defense, late expo+ Show Spoiler [Game Summary] +I open 1-1-1 (adapted from Warden's TvP) and use both a hellion scout and a proxy rax to determine that there's some sort of shenanigans going on. Due to saved up chrono boost, I'm not worried about DTs, and continue producing marines and begin a viking. I continue producing tanks to defeat his ground army. He realizes I have a starport and decides to attack before I can get a viking out. He is unsuccessful and I can begin an expo uncontested. By this point he's so far behind that the rest of the game is irrelevant. My expo starts at 4:30, I push out with my concussive pressure at 5:00, slapping down additional rax and preparing for mass bio play. My opponent pushes with his scouting poke at the same time, and at 5:10 the armies "pass in the night", so to speak. At 5:25 I'm in his base and he has turned around. At 5:40 I spot his stargate, just as it finishes. By 5:45 I've killed 3 workers, but his poke is back home, and I lose my marauders and marine (but not before taking out one final probe).
I begin producing marines and extra barracks. At 8:00, not having detected a push, I begin lowground bunkers. He attacks at 8:30 forcing my CC back into my base, before the bunkers are finished. After a brief pause for warpins at 9:00, he tries to bust. I take down his VR at 9:30, and after that there's very little he can do besides harass my expo. I try some flying OC shenanigans, but double mules vs 1 base toss and stimpack win the game. Hopefully these give some insight into how to scout and beat VR all-in.
You have no idea how much I appreciate you actually finding replays. I get the general idea. The first game you open 1-1-1 and i have no issue holding with that.
THe second game was the helpful one. While yes, there are few words for how disgustingly bad that Protoss was. He looked like silver not diamond. But i get the general idea of how to defend it you scout it coming in ample time.
My issue is when my opponent isnt a tard and doesnt let me scout the SG at like 5 min. To be honest it seems i have to defend it blind.
It comes down to, if hes gone DTs, ill hugely over defend it but ill still be ahead cuz i FE. If hes gone SG i may survive because of my huge defenses. So always assume SG and if its either DT or SG you come out ahead.
But overall. I really appreciate your help. That second replay was a good example for what i should do if i suspect VRs.
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On August 09 2011 11:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 06:40 Squigly wrote:
So bascially poke the ramp. If they FF you out so you cant see a thing, then theyve wasted gas on sentries and they are still in their base so you have a while.
If no FF you get to see their unit comp compeltely and infer from that. You wont see what they are using chrono on obv as you die attacking up a ramp so its just a suicide marine.
Pretty much i still dont think you can distinguish between DT and SG, however the response just happens to be eng bay for both.
Okay, so I don't face stargate all-in often on ladder, but here's what I got. I don't recommend turrets vs VRs, btw; I think the money is better spent on bunkers. Blazinghand vs Wintersky Master TvPSo in this match, I face a Master League Protoss player on the ladder. I open with Warden's TvP and use scouting to determine that he's using a non-DT all-in. Grade: B-, Perfect defense, late expo+ Show Spoiler [Game Summary] +I open 1-1-1 (adapted from Warden's TvP) and use both a hellion scout and a proxy rax to determine that there's some sort of shenanigans going on. Due to saved up chrono boost, I'm not worried about DTs, and continue producing marines and begin a viking. I continue producing tanks to defeat his ground army. He realizes I have a starport and decides to attack before I can get a viking out. He is unsuccessful and I can begin an expo uncontested. By this point he's so far behind that the rest of the game is irrelevant. My expo starts at 4:30, I push out with my concussive pressure at 5:00, slapping down additional rax and preparing for mass bio play. My opponent pushes with his scouting poke at the same time, and at 5:10 the armies "pass in the night", so to speak. At 5:25 I'm in his base and he has turned around. At 5:40 I spot his stargate, just as it finishes. By 5:45 I've killed 3 workers, but his poke is back home, and I lose my marauders and marine (but not before taking out one final probe).
I begin producing marines and extra barracks. At 8:00, not having detected a push, I begin lowground bunkers. He attacks at 8:30 forcing my CC back into my base, before the bunkers are finished. After a brief pause for warpins at 9:00, he tries to bust. I take down his VR at 9:30, and after that there's very little he can do besides harass my expo. I try some flying OC shenanigans, but double mules vs 1 base toss and stimpack win the game. Hopefully these give some insight into how to scout and beat VR all-in.
Oh man i do love the warden TvP style. But i always seem to have trouble with it. >.> if you have any masters level replays of proper execution of it please post!! >.>
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 09 2011 15:36 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 11:31 Blazinghand wrote:On August 09 2011 06:40 Squigly wrote:
So bascially poke the ramp. If they FF you out so you cant see a thing, then theyve wasted gas on sentries and they are still in their base so you have a while.
If no FF you get to see their unit comp compeltely and infer from that. You wont see what they are using chrono on obv as you die attacking up a ramp so its just a suicide marine.
Pretty much i still dont think you can distinguish between DT and SG, however the response just happens to be eng bay for both.
Okay, so I don't face stargate all-in often on ladder, but here's what I got. I don't recommend turrets vs VRs, btw; I think the money is better spent on bunkers. Blazinghand vs Wintersky Master TvPSo in this match, I face a Master League Protoss player on the ladder. I open with Warden's TvP and use scouting to determine that he's using a non-DT all-in. Grade: B-, Perfect defense, late expo+ Show Spoiler [Game Summary] +I open 1-1-1 (adapted from Warden's TvP) and use both a hellion scout and a proxy rax to determine that there's some sort of shenanigans going on. Due to saved up chrono boost, I'm not worried about DTs, and continue producing marines and begin a viking. I continue producing tanks to defeat his ground army. He realizes I have a starport and decides to attack before I can get a viking out. He is unsuccessful and I can begin an expo uncontested. By this point he's so far behind that the rest of the game is irrelevant. My expo starts at 4:30, I push out with my concussive pressure at 5:00, slapping down additional rax and preparing for mass bio play. My opponent pushes with his scouting poke at the same time, and at 5:10 the armies "pass in the night", so to speak. At 5:25 I'm in his base and he has turned around. At 5:40 I spot his stargate, just as it finishes. By 5:45 I've killed 3 workers, but his poke is back home, and I lose my marauders and marine (but not before taking out one final probe).
I begin producing marines and extra barracks. At 8:00, not having detected a push, I begin lowground bunkers. He attacks at 8:30 forcing my CC back into my base, before the bunkers are finished. After a brief pause for warpins at 9:00, he tries to bust. I take down his VR at 9:30, and after that there's very little he can do besides harass my expo. I try some flying OC shenanigans, but double mules vs 1 base toss and stimpack win the game. Hopefully these give some insight into how to scout and beat VR all-in. Oh man i do love the warden TvP style. But i always seem to have trouble with it. >.> if you have any masters level replays of proper execution of it please post!! >.>
My initial thought would be to look at his stream? If you follow him, it will notify you when he goes live, and it will be baller times. He is one of many high-quality non-featured terran streams here on TL-- the following is small but loyal. Enjoy!
http://www.justin.tv/wardensc2/
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Approximately gold league Terran here, I have been practicing a lot and I smash pretty much everything except heavy macro Zerg. What's a good way to deal with that because I always do a doom push, destroy his army and then he rebuilds it instantly and then the game goes on for like 20 more minutes and I lose. Should I go for an early timing push? I always harass with banshees that always end up getting like >20 kills but it's never enough.
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EPT
