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If in TvP you do a FE with the purpose of getting a better economy than your Protoss opponent is it better to
a) Build your OC in your base and then float ot out to your natural and put down bunkers OR
b) Build the OC in your natural and put down bunkers earlier.
If you go a) you risk not being able to float out your OC or building your bunkers due to Protoss camping at your natural, or have your ramp forcefielded so you cannot move out at all.
If you go b) it is easy to Protoss to spot that you are doing a FE build and do a FE themselves so that you do not get ahead in economy.
So which is the better choice?
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On August 09 2011 20:11 MockHamill wrote:
If in TvP you do a FE with the purpose of getting a better economy than your Protoss opponent is it better to
a) Build your OC in your base and then float ot out to your natural and put down bunkers OR
b) Build the OC in your natural and put down bunkers earlier.
If you go a) you risk not being able to float out your OC or building your bunkers due to Protoss camping at your natural, or have your ramp forcefielded so you cannot move out at all.
If you go b) it is easy to Protoss to spot that you are doing a FE build and do a FE themselves so that you do not get ahead in economy.
So which is the better choice?
Depends on the map. Talda/shak or something like that build in your natural, smaller maps build it in your main, at the risk of a sentry contain, but on smaller maps you can die to early agression if you build it in your nat.
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On August 09 2011 20:11 MockHamill wrote:
If in TvP you do a FE with the purpose of getting a better economy than your Protoss opponent is it better to
a) Build your OC in your base and then float ot out to your natural and put down bunkers OR
b) Build the OC in your natural and put down bunkers earlier.
If you go a) you risk not being able to float out your OC or building your bunkers due to Protoss camping at your natural, or have your ramp forcefielded so you cannot move out at all.
If you go b) it is easy to Protoss to spot that you are doing a FE build and do a FE themselves so that you do not get ahead in economy.
So which is the better choice?
I've been exclusively running a 1 rax FE TvP and a 1rax Gasless FE TvZ, and it is very dependent on the map/natural positioning. Bigger maps I lean more towards building in the natural, while maps like Xel Naga I have found it is much safer to build in base because of early 1 base aggression.
Realistically just look at the natural. If you can viably defend your main ramp/natural go for it, alot of maps support bottlenecking both chokes.. But wide open naturals/2player maps are very scary in regards to holding the FE. Also, don't forget to consider what you scout. If you aren't scouting a 4gate or a 3gate/robo timing, or you catch their FE, if you can move quickly enough and drop 2-3 bunkers it's a great time to set up your natural.
It's generally pretty damn scary trying to defend 4gate/3robo with the 1rax FE build, but its not impossible. If your natural is getting flooded, dont be afraid to lift off and fall back to your mains choke while trying to save your CC. Even if you lose your natural for the time being, if you can survive the first wave, you can get right back to doubling out SCV's. If they're just setting up their expo you know you're way ahead economically, its all dependent on what you scout though. It's a fun build, when I see the first toss clump start to roll in it's going to get nasty.
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On August 09 2011 20:11 MockHamill wrote:
If in TvP you do a FE with the purpose of getting a better economy than your Protoss opponent is it better to
a) Build your OC in your base and then float ot out to your natural and put down bunkers OR
b) Build the OC in your natural and put down bunkers earlier.
If you go a) you risk not being able to float out your OC or building your bunkers due to Protoss camping at your natural, or have your ramp forcefielded so you cannot move out at all.
If you go b) it is easy to Protoss to spot that you are doing a FE build and do a FE themselves so that you do not get ahead in economy.
So which is the better choice?
Well, it comes down to how you can handle some situations. The only way in which you'd be behind with the CC in your base is 1 gate expanding. Which is more or less scoutable. Most other stuff (3g pressure, 4g allins, Stargate play, twilight play) are much easier to hold off on 1 base - and as long as you defend and tech to starport, you're still in a better position anyway.
Considering the above, I open reaper and I only build at my nat if I scout gate-core-nexus (nexus before stalker), since I'm sure that I can get my bunker up in time. Otherwise, it's iffy and it comes do personal pref, depending on map, your control, etc.
On August 09 2011 18:55 litaslitai wrote:
Approximately gold league Terran here, I have been practicing a lot and I smash pretty much everything except heavy macro Zerg. What's a good way to deal with that because I always do a doom push, destroy his army and then he rebuilds it instantly and then the game goes on for like 20 more minutes and I lose. Should I go for an early timing push? I always harass with banshees that always end up getting like >20 kills but it's never enough.
Needs more info - if you're on 2 bases and he's on 3, after you trade armies, it's natural that he has more stuff than you. Upload a rep, maybe. Generally, however, if u leave zerg alone, he's going to outmacro you. So messing with him as much as possible is recommended - a timing while expanding could be a good idea.
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Hi! I'm a high plat Terran hitting a gaint wall with protoss. The main issues I'm having are exclusively related to micro. I prefer to play the bio style vs. protoss and what normally kills me is a complete lack of ability to execute good micro in large engagements to the point where I get slaughtered every time despite frequently having better unit compositions or macro. I'm looking for some general tips on how to both hotkey units and execute general micro in a large bio engagement vs the usual protoss death ball of either colossus or HT/archons.
My issues are:
How to position and control vikings vs colossus: Should I worry about stalker fire and attempt to reposition them during the battle or is concentrating on kiting with the bio army more important? Is there a preferred angle to engage with vikings (dependent on the map) or is it better to just float them above the bio so they can catch colossus pursuing your retreating force?
Positioning and controlling ghosts: I have ghosts on another hotkey yet before the battle starts is there a preferred position they should be in. I frequently see pro players have them cloaked or just leading the bio army to catch HT or sentries with EMP yet whenever I do this I find that the protoss generally has their sentries and HT too far back to EMP and my ghosts end up dying very quickly to the initial chargelot attack. It seems like most control at a platinum level isn't good enough to manage sending out HT to try to catch ghosts or storm unsuspecting bio and it might be better for me to just keep the ghosts with the main army, or just close to it. Also is it worth it to try to snipe the chargelots or is it way more of a priority to be kiting them with the bio ball?
Controlling the bio ball itself: I have an extreme issue with, out of habit, hotkeying my medevacs in with the main bio army so I end up strutter stepping them as well >.< I know this is not preferred yet is there an easy solution to having them follow the army without having a follow command on a unit I feel can be killed easily? Additionally, when positioning the bio force before the battle I will always try to create an arc or find areas to surround or flank the deathball, yet inevitably the bio force will clump up and be vulnerable to storms due to my over reliance on using a hotkey to select the entire ball. Do most people just box and micro with their mouse during the battle? Or should I try to separate my units since hotkeys tend to be more comfortable to me. And lastly, is target firing a viable option (especially against archons) or, again is it just more worth it to kite.
Basically my issues can all be boiled down to: how to correctly position before a battle, and when to prioritize other things such as sniping, moving vikings, etc. over kiting when engaging a protoss army with bio against either colossus or HT and archons.
I'd appreciate any help as I feel that the protoss wall is the only thing I have left to conquer before reaching diamond.
I can also find replays if anyone thinks that would help, but I'm mostly just looking for tips.
Thank you TL community for being as amazing as always ^.^
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Do you guys use hotkeys for your units? Personally, I only use hotkeys 5 and 4 for my OC and production buildings, and don't use any hotkeys for units. I feel like I can micro my units just fine without hotkeys by double-clicking if I want to select all of a type of unit. However, when I told this to people online, they were shocked and thought I was joking about not using hotkeys for my units, because I'm in masters. Is it alright to not use hotkeys for units?
Also, I was wondering in TvZ, this situation arose. I was doing a standard 9 min push with about 10 marines and 2 tanks, and my opponent has like 10 zerglings and 5 roaches. I'm seiged, and he attacks me. The zerglings are on top of my marines, while the roaches are focusing my tanks. Should I focus fire his roaches with my tanks, or let them kill the zerglings? I feel like letting them attack my zerglings would do to much damage to my own marines, but the tanks would easily clean them up. However, the roaches are very tanky and tank a lot of the tank fire.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 13 2011 07:25 Kiaro wrote:
Do you guys use hotkeys for your units? Personally, I only use hotkeys 5 and 4 for my OC and production buildings, and don't use any hotkeys for units. I feel like I can micro my units just fine without hotkeys by double-clicking if I want to select all of a type of unit. However, when I told this to people online, they were shocked and thought I was joking about not using hotkeys for my units, because I'm in masters. Is it alright to not use hotkeys for units?
Also, I was wondering in TvZ, this situation arose. I was doing a standard 9 min push with about 10 marines and 2 tanks, and my opponent has like 10 zerglings and 5 roaches. I'm seiged, and he attacks me. The zerglings are on top of my marines, while the roaches are focusing my tanks. Should I focus fire his roaches with my tanks, or let them kill the zerglings? I feel like letting them attack my zerglings would do to much damage to my own marines, but the tanks would easily clean them up. However, the roaches are very tanky and tank a lot of the tank fire.
If you don't use hotkeys for units and you do well, I'm in no position to criticize you for that. I personally, though, lack the APM to use minimap clicking to micro drops while there are fights happening, or to keep track out scouting scvs, harassing banshees, etc while using the main army. I think that if I fought with the army in 1 blob this wouldn't be a problem, but in TvP and TvT there's a lot of dropping, harassing, and anti-drop and anti-harass micro that I have trouble doing without my hotkeys.
I use control groups 1, 2, and 3 for macro, and use control group 4 for my army, 5 for casters or "stuff" (like vikings of seige tanks) that act differently than the main composition of 4, 6 for "stuff" (like vikings, or siege tanks) that act differently than the main composition of 4 OR for a drop, and 7 for my drop or harass if I'm doing 2 drops at once. For the most part, though, I'm using 4 for army, 5 for casters.
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Why aren't more Terran players add 1-2 factory with reactors/teclab after they get their third in TvP and start getting some BFH ? The Toss go almost completely zealot templar, and it feels like no matter how much you kite, you still cannot engage the zealot army by itself. So why not do it? You can also harrass with them, and get map control.
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On August 13 2011 07:52 Bleak wrote:
Why aren't more Terran players add 1-2 factory with reactors/teclab after they get their third in TvP and start getting some BFH ? The Toss go almost completely zealot templar, and it feels like no matter how much you kite, you still cannot engage the zealot army by itself. So why not do it? You can also harrass with them, and get map control.
It's hard to get good angles with the hellions vs late game zealot armies. Charge pretty much negates your speed difference, and makes micro a bit harder. That hellion is 2 marines, ya know?
This is general consensus. I personally always tank hellion in every TvP if I don't ,marine tank allin
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 13 2011 07:52 Bleak wrote:
Why aren't more Terran players add 1-2 factory with reactors/teclab after they get their third in TvP and start getting some BFH ? The Toss go almost completely zealot templar, and it feels like no matter how much you kite, you still cannot engage the zealot army by itself. So why not do it? You can also harrass with them, and get map control.
Hellions are pretty bad against Archons, and don't share upgrades with your bio. If he's going pure templar/chargelot, and you're hellion heavy, he'll make Archons or colossi.
I mean, also, against a heavy BFH mix, I doubt the toss player will spam zealots and archons; he would tech change as well into, say, stalkers, or colossi, or a mix or the two.
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Hey, can someone give me some decent TvZ builds? I'm in plat as a random player and always went double banshee, but now people can actually prepare for it. Any build order or strategy or timing push or w/e that wins games with a good percentage is accepted. I'd prefer no all in builds though. Thanks.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 13 2011 14:02 NoisyNinja wrote:
Hey, can someone give me some decent TvZ builds? I'm in plat as a random player and always went double banshee, but now people can actually prepare for it. Any build order or strategy or timing push or w/e that wins games with a good percentage is accepted. I'd prefer no all in builds though. Thanks.
There are a couple schools of thought for TvZ, but generally you want to do some sort of pressure-expand, where you take a reasonably quick natural and attack the zerg in some way to force him to stop droning.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Pressure_FE_(vs._Zerg)
The 2 rax pressure FE uses marines and kiting to force lings and maybe a spinecrawler, and possibly kill drones or overlords of an unprepared player. You get a fast expansion, then take gasses and transition, usually into a marine/tank 2 base timing attack.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reactor_Hellion_Expand_(vs._Zerg)
The Reactor Hellion expand uses hellions to kill zerglings and drones, and generally annoy the Zerg player. Common transitions include SlayerS style play with Blue Flame and Stim, or a marine/tank 2 base timing attack with your hellions, which you try to conserve as long as possible.
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What's the best way to fight in TvP, i've been having trouble when the protoss gets sentries to use guardian shield with stalkers and a couple of immortals or collosi. Recently, I've been trying 2 marauder and a couple of marines for early harass, then transitioning to a mech build with hellions, marauders, medivacs and vikings
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On August 10 2011 06:38 FrotchDirec wrote:
Hi! I'm a high plat Terran hitting a gaint wall with protoss. The main issues I'm having are exclusively related to micro. I prefer to play the bio style vs. protoss and what normally kills me is a complete lack of ability to execute good micro in large engagements to the point where I get slaughtered every time despite frequently having better unit compositions or macro. I'm looking for some general tips on how to both hotkey units and execute general micro in a large bio engagement vs the usual protoss death ball of either colossus or HT/archons.
My issues are:
How to position and control vikings vs colossus: Should I worry about stalker fire and attempt to reposition them during the battle or is concentrating on kiting with the bio army more important? Is there a preferred angle to engage with vikings (dependent on the map) or is it better to just float them above the bio so they can catch colossus pursuing your retreating force?
Positioning and controlling ghosts: I have ghosts on another hotkey yet before the battle starts is there a preferred position they should be in. I frequently see pro players have them cloaked or just leading the bio army to catch HT or sentries with EMP yet whenever I do this I find that the protoss generally has their sentries and HT too far back to EMP and my ghosts end up dying very quickly to the initial chargelot attack. It seems like most control at a platinum level isn't good enough to manage sending out HT to try to catch ghosts or storm unsuspecting bio and it might be better for me to just keep the ghosts with the main army, or just close to it. Also is it worth it to try to snipe the chargelots or is it way more of a priority to be kiting them with the bio ball?
Controlling the bio ball itself: I have an extreme issue with, out of habit, hotkeying my medevacs in with the main bio army so I end up strutter stepping them as well >.< I know this is not preferred yet is there an easy solution to having them follow the army without having a follow command on a unit I feel can be killed easily? Additionally, when positioning the bio force before the battle I will always try to create an arc or find areas to surround or flank the deathball, yet inevitably the bio force will clump up and be vulnerable to storms due to my over reliance on using a hotkey to select the entire ball. Do most people just box and micro with their mouse during the battle? Or should I try to separate my units since hotkeys tend to be more comfortable to me. And lastly, is target firing a viable option (especially against archons) or, again is it just more worth it to kite.
Basically my issues can all be boiled down to: how to correctly position before a battle, and when to prioritize other things such as sniping, moving vikings, etc. over kiting when engaging a protoss army with bio against either colossus or HT and archons.
I'd appreciate any help as I feel that the protoss wall is the only thing I have left to conquer before reaching diamond.
I can also find replays if anyone thinks that would help, but I'm mostly just looking for tips.
Thank you TL community for being as amazing as always ^.^
1. Viking & colossus: there's a simple way to look at this, generally when your vikings are targeting colossus, your bio army is microing back vs. the chargelots so that's where the problem of stalkers targeting vikings come in. the protoss in this kind of situation either continues attacking with the colossus or moves them back, if they continue attacking, i always feel it's better to just target them down and sacrifice the vikings, if they move back, move YOUR vikings back as well. Also, remember to focus fire a colossus then use the shift key and select the others so you can take them down one by one - it's also nice to at least get 1 emp off of them, they crumble much easier.
2. when you see templars and sentries behind their army, it's a good idea to have your ghosts in front to emp. what you do is basically engage first because you will be microing back anyways; when this happens, the SLOW templars and sentries will be forced to move up to cast where they will clump up allowing you to EMP them very easily. and with the snipe, i prefer not to because the ghosts can't really kite using snipe, they basically stand there to deal 40 dmg and then just die.
3. i personally don't put medivacs in the same group as my bio army, but A LOT of people do it, even the pros so i don't think that's too big of an issue right now. if you'd like to know my method, i hotkey it separately and when i start kiting i just atk move it back where my bio army is going back to. when you make an arch with your force, it happens to everyone that it clumps, i just micro them to unclump them - if your hands are fast enough, you should be fine. And in terms of target firing, archons are a huge threat, you WANT to target fire them and take them out ASAP
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On August 13 2011 16:49 diaruga11 wrote:
What's the best way to fight in TvP, i've been having trouble when the protoss gets sentries to use guardian shield with stalkers and a couple of immortals or collosi. Recently, I've been trying 2 marauder and a couple of marines for early harass, then transitioning to a mech build with hellions, marauders, medivacs and vikings
if you add in ghosts to your play, the sentries and immortals become much easier to deal with, so try that first (they can be made off rax+tech lab so it shouldn't be too hard since yo're massing marauders. also, i don't know if these builds have zealots or not, but if they don't make that many zealots, you'll ave hellions basically for no reason. I feel like hellions don't have any substance unless the protoss does archon/zealot. but in this case, it'd be better if you just went the MMM ball, it saves you the trouble of balancing barracks and factories and it's also more cost efficient!
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Assume the following scenario:
You 2 rax FE with no gas and your Protoss opponent do not expand. You scan his main but he has spread out his tech structures so you do not see anything revealing. You cannot see much military either.
This means he could go for
a) DT
b) Void Rays
c) Delayed 4 gate
d) 3/4 Gate +Immortal.
e) Blink Stalkers
f) Fast colossus
DTs are the easiest to defend (just build 1 or 2 turrets) but how should you defend against b-f if you do not know which one he is doing?
Lots of bunkers at your natural defends against 3/4 gate and immortals but loses against Blink Stalkers and Void Rays. Trying to tech up after expanding protects you from Void Ray and Fast Colossus but makes you lose against 3/4 gate and immortals. Skipping bunkers and going mass marauders protects you against blink stalkers but leaves you vulnerable against 3/4 gate/robo and void rays.
So what do you do?
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On August 07 2011 14:49 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 13:13 Scila wrote:
How to deal with 3 gate VR? I've lost to this build even when I saw it coming with my 1/1/1 build. + Show Spoiler +It's very tricky to defend the 3 gate VR and needs some fancy building placement and unit compositions. If you go 1/1/1, do you mean that you get siege tanks or just to get faster Starport?
Nevertheless, tanks work great against stalkers but are expensive and don't do well against Void rays, duh. I need a replay so that I can see what you did wrong.
If you see it coming and you aren't sure about your unit control, make an engineering bay and build a turret + a bunker at your ramp. This way the void rays can't possibly attack you in the front lines without taking damage. Now here is a tricky part, if you built your buildings close to the edges of your base it will be hard to defend against any kind of charge-up by the void rays. When you see it coming, fly all your buildings closer to the main CC and you'll be fine.
Stim is a great upgrade for your marines and if you aquire it the void ray threat will be a cakewalk. Bait him in and stim forward to snipe, kind of like bansheese in TvT. One thing that you have to be careful about is when he has his void rays over the edge of your base don't run forward recklessly. If he has a sentry or two he can forcefield your marines and pick them of with stalkers. Then it's GG if you don't have lots of turrets covering your base.
But yeah, replay please if you thought this advice wasn't good enough.
Thanks for the help, some new tips here I haven't used yet.
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On August 13 2011 23:09 MockHamill wrote:
Assume the following scenario:
You 2 rax FE with no gas and your Protoss opponent do not expand. You scan his main but he has spread out his tech structures so you do not see anything revealing. You cannot see much military either.
This means he could go for
a) DT
b) Void Rays
c) Delayed 4 gate
d) 3/4 Gate +Immortal.
e) Blink Stalkers
f) Fast colossus
DTs are the easiest to defend (just build 1 or 2 turrets) but how should you defend against b-f if you do not know which one he is doing?
Lots of bunkers at your natural defends against 3/4 gate and immortals but loses against Blink Stalkers and Void Rays. Trying to tech up after expanding protects you from Void Ray and Fast Colossus but makes you lose against 3/4 gate and immortals. Skipping bunkers and going mass marauders protects you against blink stalkers but leaves you vulnerable against 3/4 gate/robo and void rays.
So what do you do?
Quite honestly... you cant.
I have been using warden's TvP Terran Death ball which incorperates an early hellion for scouting. This hellion is invaluable if you can get into the protoss main. Otherwise, you just have to guess and pray you're right. At higher levels you can make better guesses at what they are doing by how many gas they have and how much chronoboost is on their nexus, but they are still just guesses.
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On August 13 2011 17:25 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 16:49 diaruga11 wrote:
What's the best way to fight in TvP, i've been having trouble when the protoss gets sentries to use guardian shield with stalkers and a couple of immortals or collosi. Recently, I've been trying 2 marauder and a couple of marines for early harass, then transitioning to a mech build with hellions, marauders, medivacs and vikings if you add in ghosts to your play, the sentries and immortals become much easier to deal with, so try that first (they can be made off rax+tech lab so it shouldn't be too hard since yo're massing marauders. also, i don't know if these builds have zealots or not, but if they don't make that many zealots, you'll ave hellions basically for no reason. I feel like hellions don't have any substance unless the protoss does archon/zealot. but in this case, it'd be better if you just went the MMM ball, it saves you the trouble of balancing barracks and factories and it's also more cost efficient!
Thanks, the ghosts really did help a lot! I get hellions because they always seem to have a couple of zealots killing my marauders and i need my marauders to kill the stalkers and/or collosi. To the suggestion to go MMM ball, I do think it is a better choice if they decide for immortals instead of collosi, but if they go collosi i often loose even though i try to snipe the collosi, once it's dead, his zealots and stalkers seem to kill me.
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Whats a good late game SCV count? Perhaps assuming three OCs. I'm thinking 70.
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EPT
