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KaiserGL
United States18 Posts
A few questions Is this meant to be an all in? When am I supposed to attack? What should I scout for? Do you get cloak? Or just use the banshee for dps/spotting Assuming the initial attack is defended, what can you transition to? Other than that, any advice on the execution of this build is helpful as well as the maps and positions this strategy is most effective on. 1-1-1 is my favorite opening as the possibilities are vast, but I have been unable to refine the build to much effect in tvp | ||
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:11 thoradycus wrote: Are there any good biomech midgame timing attacks like in BW that is effective? What matchup | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
TvZ sorry | ||
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whoopingchow
United States293 Posts
On August 09 2011 00:43 KaiserGL wrote: In TvP, I am having a hard time executing the 1-1-1 with tank/banshee/marine. A few questions Is this meant to be an all in? When am I supposed to attack? What should I scout for? Do you get cloak? Or just use the banshee for dps/spotting Assuming the initial attack is defended, what can you transition to? Other than that, any advice on the execution of this build is helpful as well as the maps and positions this strategy is most effective on. 1-1-1 is my favorite opening as the possibilities are vast, but I have been unable to refine the build to much effect in tvp I've heard that optimally, you'd be pushing out when you get about three tanks and two banshees, around ten minutes(??), which you can use to harass the mineral line if a) you don't see robotics, and b) while you're pushing at the front. The transition would of course be related to whatever you scouted--Collusi, get Vikings, DT's or mass Stalkers, get a Ravens and Marauders, Stargate, get more Marines (XD), etc. If he has blink Stalkers, then a siege line won't be that effective, so you should transition to something more mobile, etc. | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:13 Requizen wrote: When do you decide to use scans against each race? This seems like a simple question, and I've heard the rule of thumb is scan at 6 minutes to see tech, scan before each engagement, and scan before harass, but I always feel like I end up either over- or under-using scans and play blind. You can NEVER overscan. Think about it, when you scan you usually are looking for something important. By aquiring that information you should be satisfied and not feel like you "wasted" something. Scans are free you know? See MULEs as a bonus and not a must, this especially applies in the later stages of the game. I usually save my energy for killing creep or spamming them on a new expansion. The less MULEs you use on one base the longer can you mine from it and not have to transfer workers. People say you waste 270 potential minerals for each scan, well yeah you kind of do but these minerals would have been mined anyways, just a few minutes later. Scanning to see something vital is much more worth in my opinion. But in the end it is you who are deciding everything. If you feel that those faster minerals are better and you have very good crisis-management, then go MULEs more. If you are not that good with the matchup or lack the game sense of detecting certain things, thwn Scan away! | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 09 2011 00:43 KaiserGL wrote: In TvP, I am having a hard time executing the 1-1-1 with tank/banshee/marine. A few questions Is this meant to be an all in? When am I supposed to attack? What should I scout for? Do you get cloak? Or just use the banshee for dps/spotting Assuming the initial attack is defended, what can you transition to? Other than that, any advice on the execution of this build is helpful as well as the maps and positions this strategy is most effective on. 1-1-1 is my favorite opening as the possibilities are vast, but I have been unable to refine the build to much effect in tvp Hey Kaiser! Didn't know you posted on TL  The 1-1-1 is meant to all-in against anything fast expand, since you can't catch up economically. A lot of what you do is determined by what the protoss player does, because if he expos late, then you don't need to allin, but you can often still push if you hold off the early aggression. A pretty normal strategy for 1-1-1 is for your first starport unit to be a raven, then to make banshees and push just before you have energy for a PDD, so you arrive at his front with banshees, tanks, marines, and a PDD. This strategy needs to scout for Protoss Fast Expands, since if he expands fast, this build which has a late expo needs to attack. I generally don't' get cloak, preferring to spend the extra gas on tanks/ a raven. If he's doing some sort of 1 base play, like 4gate, void ray rush, or DT rush, obviously you just need to defend and come out on top (against DTs you can make a raven and rofl your way to victory against VRs, it's the same but with Viking, and against 4gate you need 2 bunkers)-- then you can attack and win. If he's expanding much faster than you are, like with a 1 gate expand, he's forcing you to be all-in, since you can't possibly catch up economically. At this point you want to attack as soon as your raven has enough energy for a PDD. You should expo behind the attack if possible, but like, you basically have to deal damage to his probeline or your'e far behind, even with an expo. If he's expanding at a similar rate to you, whether he's slightly faster or slower, with a 2 gate robo expo or a 3 gate sentry expo, you can't really attack him since he's being very safe. You can build a raven with your starport to dump gas and save minerals to afford your expo earlier. If he expos quickly and you attack and deal a lot of damage but not enough to win, or if he expos moderately quickly and you attack and deal a moderate amount of damage, you basically want to slap down your own expo (which hopefully you built) and transition to a fun terran build. Warden recommends a BioMech build with 3 rax (tech, tech, reactor) 2 facts (tech for tanks, reactor), and 1 starport (reactor for vikings, medivacs) since you already have the infrastructure for that sort of build. He also talks about scouting and various responses that 1-1-1 can do to protoss attacks in his thread. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:35 XiGua wrote: You can NEVER overscan. Think about it, when you scan you usually are looking for something important. By aquiring that information you should be satisfied and not feel like you "wasted" something. Scans are free you know? See MULEs as a bonus and not a must, this especially applies in the later stages of the game. I usually save my energy for killing creep or spamming them on a new expansion. The less MULEs you use on one base the longer can you mine from it and not have to transfer workers. People say you waste 270 potential minerals for each scan, well yeah you kind of do but these minerals would have been mined anyways, just a few minutes later. Scanning to see something vital is much more worth in my opinion. But in the end it is you who are deciding everything. If you feel that those faster minerals are better and you have very good crisis-management, then go MULEs more. If you are not that good with the matchup or lack the game sense of detecting certain things, thwn Scan away! So would you say it's more of a trade off between economy and being safe? I only ask because I see so many games where Terrans have way more units that you'd think on one or two bases, and it's usually thanks to hitting almost every MULE they can. How much behind do you feel not having those extra minerals for income? That's at lease more hellions/marines per cycle that you can get away with, do you feel that your army is still comprable without it? | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On August 09 2011 00:43 KaiserGL wrote: In TvP, I am having a hard time executing the 1-1-1 with tank/banshee/marine. A few questions Is this meant to be an all in? When am I supposed to attack? What should I scout for? Do you get cloak? Or just use the banshee for dps/spotting Assuming the initial attack is defended, what can you transition to? Other than that, any advice on the execution of this build is helpful as well as the maps and positions this strategy is most effective on. 1-1-1 is my favorite opening as the possibilities are vast, but I have been unable to refine the build to much effect in tvp Well its not always an all-in depending on what you do and what occurs. Like any 1 base you need to do some damage that makes you come out ahead in Econ or Army. If not your behind. This doesn;t mean you need to kill their base, but damage such as worker kills, some army kill, or simply denying Mining. If you can do this your in good shape because you have tech. The issue though is that if you plan to go bio, your not that ahead because you only have siege tech reasearched. However you in good shape for Mech. I've seen variations that for go the reactor for a while in order to take out a CC very quickly and others that simply wait until they push to Expo. If you go for the late Reactor you don;t really need to do damage, but pushing is still recommended, just don;t commit because your force will be a little light on the marines. Of course the longer you wait to push, the more likely the build is all in, because your allowing your opponent to saturate their expo. Personally I like this TvP build, but the raven variation which is much stronger due to PDD and is safe against DT. Also what I like is that after you second Banshee after the initial Raven you stop Banshee production in order to get 2 Facts. Then you lift your Rax and Star and plop the Facts in order to double produce tanks and Hellions. Is it all in? It can be, but doesn't have to be. Not only that, but Mech gives room for lots of Hellion Harass which even out in the long run. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:54 Requizen wrote: So would you say it's more of a trade off between economy and being safe? I only ask because I see so many games where Terrans have way more units that you'd think on one or two bases, and it's usually thanks to hitting almost every MULE they can. How much behind do you feel not having those extra minerals for income? That's at lease more hellions/marines per cycle that you can get away with, do you feel that your army is still comprable without it? Constant MULEing gives 180 minerals per minute, mining 270 minerals over their lifetimes, making each mule worth about 4 marines if you include the cost of supply depots, 5 if you don't. If you spend 3 scans, that's 12 marines which is pretty huge. On the other hand, if you have trouble scouting, you can spend 3 scans and not die to surprise void rays or mutalisk tech switch, which is also pretty huge. In the early game, be as miserly as possible with your scans, using only 1 for scouting at about 5:45-6:00, and another either much later for for killing creep tumors / during DT timing until you get a turret or raven up. Once you have 3 Orbitals, you get a mule/scan every 30 seconds, which means you have more to spare-- especially if you're MULEing at a gold. The big thing is that eventually you want to incorporate somewhat constant MULEs into your economy by making more barracks so that you don't bank money every time you MULE, letting you get a larger army-- this is the strength of the MULE for terran, who can produce stronger timing pushes and replenish bio armies more quickly in the late game. Also, in TvT specifically, Scans can be important during tank micro if you lose sight of the opponent. It's often worth the 270 minerals since you can pick off 1 or even 2 tanks. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:35 XiGua wrote: You can NEVER overscan. Think about it, when you scan you usually are looking for something important. By aquiring that information you should be satisfied and not feel like you "wasted" something. Scans are free you know? See MULEs as a bonus and not a must, this especially applies in the later stages of the game. I usually save my energy for killing creep or spamming them on a new expansion. The less MULEs you use on one base the longer can you mine from it and not have to transfer workers. People say you waste 270 potential minerals for each scan, well yeah you kind of do but these minerals would have been mined anyways, just a few minutes later. Scanning to see something vital is much more worth in my opinion. But in the end it is you who are deciding everything. If you feel that those faster minerals are better and you have very good crisis-management, then go MULEs more. If you are not that good with the matchup or lack the game sense of detecting certain things, thwn Scan away! Isn't this sort of an exaggeration? Of course you can over-scan. If you can scout with a Hellion or Viking/Banshee, the OC energy is definitely better spent on a MULE. Scans are definitely NOT free. Agreed that MULEs only mine minerals you would have had anyway, but they increase your mining rate, which is all that matters anways. Minerals in hand now are better than minerals in hand later. Zerg and Protoss are both capable of producing workers faster than Terran. If you consider MULEs a "bonus" then isn't spawn larvae and chronoboost a "bonus" too? No, they're innate macro mechanics and they need to be utilized to keep up with opponents that are using their race's macro mechanic to boost their economy. However, I agree with you that scouting information is often more important than the faster mining rate of MULEs. My beef is that often it just takes a few more clicks to scout with a Hellion/flying unit AND you can drop the MULE. And late-game if you have 3+ OC's, scans are definitely more useful than an individual MULE, unless you are going light on SCVs. | ||
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Tuplex
80 Posts
Supply calldowns are also pretty useful from time to time. My opinion is that it's better to call down supply than to be blocked. Obviously getting blocked is to be avoided, but it happens to everyone from time to time. What's everyone else's opinion about using calldowns? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 09 2011 02:44 Tuplex wrote: If you can get by without MULEs in the early or mid-game, then that's a sign that your macro and/or build order is probably not very strong! I would opine that most top-level builds won't work optimally without using most of your energy on MULEs, at least until 2 bases. But one or two scans at key times can save the game, that's for sure. Especially against Zerg, if I haven't poked their base or been attacked for more than a minute or so, I have no problem scanning to see what they're up to. Tha's saved my ass more than once. Supply calldowns are also pretty useful from time to time. My opinion is that it's better to call down supply than to be blocked. Obviously getting blocked is to be avoided, but it happens to everyone from time to time. What's everyone else's opinion about using calldowns? Use calldowns if you have to, but try to never have to. A calldown generates basically a new supply depot, which is worth 100 minerals, so you're not losing a full 270, just 170-- still, it creates vulnerabilities to the superdepot being sniped etc. Being supply blocked for a full 30 seconds while making a supply depot is terrrrrible though, the verdict is: 1) you should try to never need a calldown 2) still, better to calldown then to get supply blocked There's nothing worse than a superdepot getting sniped during a drop or something :| | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids. The only thing ive ever got to work is mass base trade | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 09 2011 02:59 Squigly wrote: If its been answered sorry, but 3 gate proxy stargate seems completely unstoppable. Ive been watching streams where master Ts dont even beat it. Ive literally never once seen a well controlled one lose. At any level. Scouting wise its identical looking to DTs so eng bay, (if its proxy SG) luckily turrets also help massively against voids. The only thing ive ever got to work is mass base trade The difference between proxy stargate and fast DTs is that proxy stargate needs to save up chrono boost to be effective. Proxy stargate scouts as fast double gas, low sentry count, and saved up chrono boost. If he's not saving chrono boost, the void rays will come out slowly and you'll be able to react well-- or he's going DTs and doesn't need it in the first place. Stargate attack is almost build order loss to a 1-1-1 which can get a fast viking, and there are several things you can do to deal with it (bunkered marines at the top of a ramp, for example, or last-hitting your own buildings to stop a VR bust from getting charged) if you went for a lower-tech route. If you went for a 1 rax fast expand, you will struggle mightily to defeat it. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
How do you leapfrog your tanks when moving onto creep? Do you stay a little off of it, or scan and take it out with marines? Basically, how do you avoid getting caught unsieged during a tank push TvZ. Do you walk a marine way in front? | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote: oops, double post. I'll ask a question, then-- How do you leapfrog your tanks when moving onto creep? Do you stay a little off of it, or scan and take it out with marines? Basically, how do you avoid getting caught unsieged during a tank push TvZ. Do you walk a marine way in front? You leapfrog by doing just what it sounds like. Siege up some tanks first and then take the rest and siege them up in front of them. Now you are safe! Take the tank in the back and move him to the front and siege up then repeat the process until you are at your opponent's army. Leapfrogging is a great way to contain your opponent and at the same time push forward. Never unsiege too many tanks at the same time!! That'll lead to many raging OP-screams. By leapfrogging it's hard to get caught off guard. Patience is a factor though. Everytime you advance with your tanks kill the creep tumors! It helps alot. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:10 Blazinghand wrote: The difference between proxy stargate and fast DTs is that proxy stargate needs to save up chrono boost to be effective. Proxy stargate scouts as fast double gas, low sentry count, and saved up chrono boost. If he's not saving chrono boost, the void rays will come out slowly and you'll be able to react well-- or he's going DTs and doesn't need it in the first place. Stargate attack is almost build order loss to a 1-1-1 which can get a fast viking, and there are several things you can do to deal with it (bunkered marines at the top of a ramp, for example, or last-hitting your own buildings to stop a VR bust from getting charged) if you went for a lower-tech route. If you went for a 1 rax fast expand, you will struggle mightily to defeat it. I dont want to have to 1-1-1. I 2 rax FE and it seems to be hard countered by proxy SG 3 gate all in. I posted in the P help thread what people have issues with it, and i got the answer "Issues, normally they just die" lol Also with the chrono, you save up chrono for DTs as well dont u? You save it to chrono the WG research. The issues seems to be 3 gate in the front voids in the back if ive prepared well. And if not then i get rolled by an a move. Id like 1 replay of a high level player doing it well and losing. Ive been watching master level streams and they lose to it every time. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 09 2011 03:19 XiGua wrote: You leapfrog by doing just what it sounds like. Siege up some tanks first and then take the rest and siege them up in front of them. Now you are safe! Take the tank in the back and move him to the front and siege up then repeat the process until you are at your opponent's army. Leapfrogging is a great way to contain your opponent and at the same time push forward. Never unsiege too many tanks at the same time!! That'll lead to many raging OP-screams. By leapfrogging it's hard to get caught off guard. Patience is a factor though. Everytime you advance with your tanks kill the creep tumors! It helps alot. Maybe this is more of a game sense things, but how many tanks do you want to have sieged up at a time? Exactly half? Also, if you have 3 or 5 tanks do you have the larger half or the smaller half sieged up at any time? Final thing is, how do you reinforce a marine/tank slow push? Obviously you don't want your dudes streaming across the map unless you have him fully contained, due to counter attack sand reinforcement pickoffs-- should i move in groups of X marines with 1 tank? | ||
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