EPTI want to try and get a reactored starport and additional rax with upgrades, yet I find that my transition is really awkward on two base, I either end up cutting units or delaying the additional rax to the point where my opponent gets a supply lead. How should I go about incorporating new buildings? Should I be trying to get a third expansion earlier instead of investing resources into infrastructure?
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 5
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
I want to try and get a reactored starport and additional rax with upgrades, yet I find that my transition is really awkward on two base, I either end up cutting units or delaying the additional rax to the point where my opponent gets a supply lead. How should I go about incorporating new buildings? Should I be trying to get a third expansion earlier instead of investing resources into infrastructure? | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
I miss good old tank marine  | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On August 06 2011 07:36 ilion wrote: TvP 1 rax gasless FE questions: How many bunkers at my natural is too much? 4? This is obviously when I've scouted a 3gate robo or 4gate. Also, how do you deal with blink stalker? As in a rush to blink. I've never actually faced this so I don't know when the timing for a blink rush to finish is, but I still forsee it as being a weakness of a gasless FE. I think 2-3 bunkers is all you need. But this one time when I was watching hacks stream he held a 4 gate with 1 rax and 1 bunker so i don't really know. Hack is a monster though  | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232 | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
If you find 2rax expo awkward try 1 rax expo, much easier to get your economy and tech up quickly. You should only use 2 rax if you are going to be aggressive early. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On August 07 2011 19:55 Bleak wrote: I am really lost in TvT. What is the opening I should go for? Blue flame helions really make me rage as you don't even have time to react, and when you react it is either too late or not enough to save scvs. I miss good old tank marine Go bf hellions too And also sim city http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196232 No really, ether try iechoics or go the standard BF hellion opener (2 marines only, second gas right after factory goes down, techlab on rax) and get a reactored starport asap (after BF starts wait till 150 gas and immediately throw down starport + reactor on rax) and get a fast viking + hellion If you first scouting scv doesnt die and you dont see him walling off, try to run in again and check for a fast techlab on rax to defend against reapers or a marauder all in that you should bunker against. Scan when you have enough energy right after the 5th minute mark to get the general idea what hes doing, whether you should get a raven right after the viking/medevac from reactor (switch factory on reactor and starport on techlab) or its safe to just go for cloak shee and in base CC. Also check if its safe to drop and plan out a route for hellions to run. I do this myself a lot. if drop was successful and you even manage to kill the opponent drop ship in midair with the viking before he drops its already game over for him, if not get the 3rd and 4th gas asap, get another set of starport factory and go into siege tank hellion viking banshee. Map control is extremely important in this matchup. Certain scenerios - If didnt go reapers send the two marines out to the watchtowers, they're almost useless when opponent does manage to get bf hellions into your base anyways - snipe the dropship with viking! If marine scv all in - have scv on en route watchtower to know when its coming, also check if he hid any rax nearby so you can kill it off first - key points are that hes going 12/14 rax, no gas, or a low ramp walloff. Scan early to make sure what hes up to. When his scvs come - if you have a bunker wall off hes dead, and good players will normally scan first to check that fact before he does so, and will likely NOT all in. When the push comes you'll likely have 1 hellion out at least, so engage his army early while hes still moving - scvs run ahead of the marines and tend to bunch up into a line - a couple good shots off and you're gold. Just dont lose the hellions. When the push hes up your ramp and you didnt wall off (i dont) bring scvs over too, have them tank, and micro the hellions (if you delayed the push enough you should have 2 or even 3, with BF almost done) hellions will clean up as long you keep them alive, and you should have a bunch of scvs left. If see lots of marauder (run scv up ramp multiple times to check) throw up bunker walloff asap and crunch that damn banshee out asap. The hellions wont do much so you might as well continue with the drop when hes not in base. Repair the bunker like mad and delay his push until banshee comes out. Also, the reactored factory making hellions will also make shortwork of any scvs/marines that he brings along. if a strong marine marauder stim push and has good control itll be a tough one to fight against but try to pick off marines before his army reaches your base. Itll be tough but its up to you if you decide NOT to drop and just keep the army for defense/delay. If marine tank viking (AKA standard I-dont-understand-this-matchup build) the push wont come until AFTER your hellions have already dropped into his base, so depending on how it goes itll be either an all in for him or you stand on even grounds, with you slightly ahead with the cc. Remember, have marines on watch tower, and engage his army with hellions (kill off as many marines as possible) before he reaches your base. This will also delay his push a bit for cloak to finish, clean up and win If cloak shee (you scan on 5th minute mark and see techlab glowing green on starport) you'll be fine as long as you ave the watch towers to get a lucky spot where his banshee is coming from, and also get to snipe the banshee with the viking before he even gets to your base. Get a raven out asap (right as you switch over the starport onto the techlab) and you'll be fine. Hotkeys are important - group the viking and the raven together and you'll be fine. Some terrans dont like to move out until cloak is done, so he'll have two banshees at home for defense. That wont stop your hellions dead tho - with some control and the scan before hand you should still get in some damage while allowing your raven to come out. If reactor hellion (not much marines, fast reactor on rax and a factory nearby) - bunker wall off so you dont die to the runby as you dont really have any units to stop it with early on. continue on with your build and your bf hellions should dominate. If hes rushing cloak shee with it your scan should spot it and you'll be in a great position to hold it off. If ghost rush - IE scan and see ghost acad/ 3 rax mostly marines (hiding his ghosts) double gas (sometimes only 1 tho), bunker wall off and try to kill the marines with hellions when hes halfway across the map. The viking will be the MVP in this situation as he has good range and is armored - land him before wall and repair if must. Once the marines are dead he'll just try to bust down your wall with ghosts or back off, either way wont be pretty for him. If thor rush (Marines, double gas, armory, techlab on factory) there are a couple ways to do this. First, rape all the scvs before hand with blueflame and you win, with a bunker walloff + repair and banshee tanking (yes use the fucking banshee to tank as you can just fly her away and repair) get cloak out and hes toast. 1 thor isnt that scary, if two thors you might want to get some marauders out but its really dependant on the fact whether you killed off the scvs or not, plus, the two thor timing is after your drop hits. If fast cc - just LOL as the 4 hellions wreck shit in his entire base. If hes doing same build or similar build (Open BF hellion) watch out for vikings on your way to drop, get ready to abort and drop all the hellions down (D key on the medevac, not on the ground) and snipe his medevac if you can. Itll go into a long, arm numbing macro game that is basically pelted on who's bf hellions can do more economical damage. Go for 3 factories if you want, two reactor 1 techlab, and two starports (1 techlab 1 reactor) on 2 base or go 2 2 and double armory for upgrades. Whatever suits you, and harrass often. Also, dont forget to simcity your nat too. Just remember- there is nothing he is doing that you CANT do, and he has no weird unit that you DONT have or know about. BTW before you drop him check the cliff if its safe - if only 1 marine or two just drop anyways and give your hellions some appetizers first. If lots of marines pray he didnt see you and just sneak around for a better position. If he sees you AND has hellions defending just back off, drop onto low ground and poke his ramp. This scenario usually happens when you scan and see techlab on factory, marines, hellions (or hes hiding) and a cc building - so rally your banshee over and start doing some damage - snipe scvs and marines if can, if turret snipe the hellions and basically just constantly be in his face with the banshee without losing it. If you see a starport tho check for the energy left on OC - if he'll have enough for scan just back off and bring your viking too to fend off the viking on your poor banshee's ass, but dont aim to kill him straight off, just pressure a bit. Usually this also creates a window of opportunity for your hellions to drop in if he retreats his stuff to his mineral line - the splash damage will still catch some scvs and the banshee can also deal some damage too. As long as you kept up the macro (fly CC to nat, make oc, transfer some scv and make double gas, have second fact and second starport up, hellions and other air units at home or building, somewhat constant scv production) you should be relatively fine and ahead. Just watch out for those hellion runbys Also, after moving cc to nat, wall off your ramp on the top with depots - three should usually do it. If you werent able to stop hellions from running through your nat and up your ramp (your army isnt home) this will prevent them from going in. If you manage to pull the scvs in first you're gold, get a tank out and bat them away Mid - late game air dominance is still the key winning factor here, and the tanks are really just there for defense and holding the line. If one side is losing the dominance, he'll usually get a thor out and try to push. Focus down the thor if you can with the tanks AND banshee and you'll be fine. If lots of thors you should have BCs already. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On August 08 2011 00:37 DarkCore wrote: I just had an interesting TvZ match where I manage to snipe my opponents natural with a 2 rax bunker. I build an inbase CC meanwhile and retreat. Amazingly though by the time I land my expansion the Zerg has recovered in economy (While still making a lot of zerglings), and is ahead in the income tab. Is that normal? Should a 2 rax into expo fall behind in economy for a slight period of time? Not really unless you lost too much to it or forgot to macro, but its not uncommon as we saw losira pull that off in the semifinals. Normally once you kill off the bunker you can just continue the pressure up his ramp to force him to make more lings, throw spinecrawlers, and lose even more. Its disgusting how fast a zerg can drone tho | ||
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samd
United States77 Posts
1. Is it worth getting ghosts vs a collosus heavy protoss? I've heard that its better to just stick with MMM/viking? 2. Some people say that you should never use stim without at least a few medivacs. Is this true? My tvp strat makes use of early stim and gets medivacs a lot later. 3. If you're doing a timing push against a zerg at around 9 mins is it better to have stim or combat shields? 4. +1 attack or armor first vs toss/zerg? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 08 2011 03:18 samd wrote: Great thread terranbros, I have a few questions (diamond terran): 1. Is it worth getting ghosts vs a collosus heavy protoss? I've heard that its better to just stick with MMM/viking? 2. Some people say that you should never use stim without at least a few medivacs. Is this true? My tvp strat makes use of early stim and gets medivacs a lot later. 3. If you're doing a timing push against a zerg at around 9 mins is it better to have stim or combat shields? 4. +1 attack or armor first vs toss/zerg? 1) Yes, ghosts are always good vs Protoss no matter the composition. Just don't go crazy with them 2) You can use stim before medivacs, just make sure you using it when you need to. Also if you get early stim way before medivacs there needs to be a reason for it ie: A potential timing you could do or timing that could be done to you 3) Depends on how he's going to defend, I'd say stim is better but I'm not too sure. Combat shield is nice for very fast medivacs play but for usual tank marine I'd say stim is better first. If you have really good micro combat shield is potentially better since it means banes 2 shot instead of 1(I think?) but that is quite hectic 4) TvP - if they going gateway heavy than attack since they go heavy on armour. Otherwise just get both, generally start with attack but isn't too big a deal. TvZ you also want both tbh, just make sure you get mech +1 if you going marine tank. That's vital | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On August 07 2011 15:56 Gamegene wrote: When I'm playing TvP, I usually go for a 2 rax into an expansion. I want to try and get a reactored starport and additional rax with upgrades, yet I find that my transition is really awkward on two base, I either end up cutting units or delaying the additional rax to the point where my opponent gets a supply lead. How should I go about incorporating new buildings? Should I be trying to get a third expansion earlier instead of investing resources into infrastructure? The 'textbook' way: If you continue building SCVs, as soon as you drop your extra mule (even on one base), you will get a consistent overpool of minerals, even with constant production from the two rax. From there on, either add more rax if u think he's 1basing you, or tech if you think you need it. Just try it against AI, this is pretty selfexplanatory, you'll easily see you're stacking up resources and are not able to spend them. (2nd gas timing is something u have to figure out for urself) The corner cutting way: If you know you're safe (he expanded), you can, as you said, cut production from the 2 barracks (never cut SCVs imo) and then add additional buildings earlier. Wouldn't recommend this - it is however good if u plan to do a 4rax timing. Ideally, after I take my 2nd base, I'm looking to have 3rax with add-ons, 1SP with reactor and an engineering bay. From there, it's your choice whether to take a 3rd, add rax 4 and 5, get another starport, add ghosts, etc. Hope it helps | ||
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CaptainCharisma
New Zealand808 Posts
Also, is it optimal to focus fire his vikings, or will I be wasting shots (so should just a-move)? | ||
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matthewd49
United States11 Posts
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Andreas
Norway214 Posts
On August 08 2011 08:58 CaptainCharisma wrote: In TvT Viking wars, say you have an even amount of vikings (say 8 each). Going in to a front on viking battle, which upgrade will give me the biggest advantaget, +1 ship weapons or +1 ship armor, versus the opponent's no upgrades. Also, is it optimal to focus fire his vikings, or will I be wasting shots (so should just a-move)? +1 armor will let your vikings take 1 extra volley against un-upgraded vikings, +1 attack won't do anything other than nullifying his +1 armor if he has it. +1 armor is always what you want to go for in my opinion - especially because in the later term, if you do manage to get air control, air armor will help a lot vs non-viking anti-air units - marines, thors, turrets all do fairly little damage per shot but fire rapidly, so +armor upgrades help a lot. It's almost never worth focus firing, as you will often end up overkilling (i.e. shooting 10 volleys at a viking with 10HP). In *huge* viking battles you can actually pull one and one viking to the front to try and make your opponent focus fire to abuse this and gain an advantage that way, but it's not very reliable. On August 08 2011 10:38 matthewd49 wrote: hi guys, what do you think is a better TvT composition? right now i've been going mmm + viking and have had some success but i see many people recommending helion/tank/viking. i would like to try that out sometime but i don't know a good build that would get me there, so if someone could link/tell me a pretty detailed summary/build order to get to that composition in order to translate nicely into mid/late game, that would be cool. one more thing i was wondering about helion/tank is how would you deal with marauder/tank since helions are not very good vs marauders, thanks guys. Almost any opener will lead nicely into mech. My preferances are: 1rax reaper expand for scouting, lift off the barracks and build a factory on the techlab for a quick blueflame upgrade. Add a starport, extra gas, some tanks for defense then add more factories. From here on you want to turtle on 2 base for some time unless you scout him going mech or taking a super quick 3rd+4th. Against other mech players, get a quicker third and get an armory for upgrades + thors. On smaller maps this is kinda risky, so I use Thorzain's TvT build: 1 gas no-cloak banshee. Reactor on your barracks after 3 marines, build a tech lab on your factory and switch it with your starport. Use the banshee to scout, harass and snipe any kind of units he's trying to push out with. Grab an expansion and your 2nd gas, get some tanks + marines for defense then get 4 gas, upgrade blueflame and switch to hellion production while going up to 4 factories. Against marauder + tank you need to abuse the mobility of hellions - harass a lot to make him afraid to push out. You should be able to maintain air control (you have more vikings), so 1 banshee will help out a lot, especially in the early game. You can also add some ravens as PDDs will do wonders in defending your tank line against marauders. | ||
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matthewd49
United States11 Posts
Almost any opener will lead nicely into mech. My preferances are: 1rax reaper expand for scouting, lift off the barracks and build a factory on the techlab for a quick blueflame upgrade. Add a starport, extra gas, some tanks for defense then add more factories. From here on you want to turtle on 2 base for some time unless you scout him going mech or taking a super quick 3rd+4th. Against other mech players, get a quicker third and get an armory for upgrades + thors. On smaller maps this is kinda risky, so I use Thorzain's TvT build: 1 gas no-cloak banshee. Reactor on your barracks after 3 marines, build a tech lab on your factory and switch it with your starport. Use the banshee to scout, harass and snipe any kind of units he's trying to push out with. Grab an expansion and your 2nd gas, get some tanks + marines for defense then get 4 gas, upgrade blueflame and switch to hellion production while going up to 4 factories. Against marauder + tank you need to abuse the mobility of hellions - harass a lot to make him afraid to push out. You should be able to maintain air control (you have more vikings), so 1 banshee will help out a lot, especially in the early game. You can also add some ravens as PDDs will do wonders in defending your tank line against marauders. cool, thanks man. i'll experiment around with it for sometime. would you say that helion/tank/viking is a better unit composition than marine/tank? i see a lot of people on both sides of the argument and TvT i would say is one of my worst match ups so i am kinda confused about which route i should be heading with my mid-late game unit composition and stuff. | ||
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Andreas
Norway214 Posts
On August 08 2011 10:56 matthewd49 wrote: cool, thanks man. i'll experiment around with it for sometime. would you say that helion/tank/viking is a better unit composition than marine/tank? i see a lot of people on both sides of the argument and TvT i would say is one of my worst match ups so i am kinda confused about which route i should be heading with my mid-late game unit composition and stuff. Both are viable in my opinion. It's all preference - with mech you've gotta be prepared to turtle much more. Also note that you cannot go marine tank against a meching player - you have to go marauders in some fashion unless you're somehow able to do huge damage early on. | ||
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Failbot7000
United States2 Posts
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IAmSlide
United States18 Posts
Things I have tried: -Scouting with a few forward hellions -Throwing down scans Both of these are hit or miss and if the hellion does find the army it tends to die for free. Ideas I haven't tried yet: -Single cloaked banshee -Viking The first option seems like the best way to scout without my opponent knowing, but its a huge investment just for scouting. The viking is about the same as a hellion, just more expensive if it dies. Do I really have to leapfrog the whole map? That's terrible thing on these larger maps. What are you doing to keep your army from being caught out of position? | ||
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XiGua
Sweden3085 Posts
On August 08 2011 11:56 IAmSlide wrote: When moving out with tanks in your army, what is the best way to scout ahead to make sure you siege in time? I've lost a bunch of games now because my tanks weren't sieged early enough. The biggest problem is when I mech TvZ. Things I have tried: -Scouting with a few forward hellions -Throwing down scans Both of these are hit or miss and if the hellion does find the army it tends to die for free. Ideas I haven't tried yet: -Single cloaked banshee -Viking The first option seems like the best way to scout without my opponent knowing, but its a huge investment just for scouting. The viking is about the same as a hellion, just more expensive if it dies. Do I really have to leapfrog the whole map? That's terrible thing on these larger maps. What are you doing to keep your army from being caught out of position? Yeah, it's tricky. This is the reason why mech is immobile, you can't recklessly move out. What I would suggest is to take an expansion while you move out a little so that you can defend it. Then siege up and start leap frogging, every time you seal off a choke to an expansion, take it. By doing this you will take the lead economically, but you must be active with your hellions and scout around + harrass, otherwise the Zerg can just drone up to 80+ drones and have 5 bases without problems. But there are some areas on the map that you can feel safe when moving out: · On your side of the map - The closer you get to his side of the map the riskier it becomes, make sure to scout with hellions alot when you get closer to the middle. · Off creep - When you are off creep the zerg units are much slower and will therefore give you much more time to react, but the same rule here; the closer you get to the creep the riskier it becomes. · When you drop - Dropping is a GREAT way to move out, a 8-16 marine drop or a 4-8 BFH drop will make the Zerg have all his attention on his drones and defence. This is the time to move out! Same rules though, remember! The deadlier the drop the safer you can be moving out, multiprong drops also add to the "safeyness". Hope that helped! | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
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