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On August 06 2011 07:11 SurroundSound wrote:
Recently in TvT, ive been favoring playing a safe turtle game to get 2 bases where i make my push but it was absolutely crushed by a thor/hellion/tank combination where i was sieged and he wasnt and he charged into my line and demolished it?
1. Is that a better combination to go for out of safe turtle game that i like to play?
2. When is the best time to attack with my tanks unsieged...in other words how should i charge a siege line with my tanks unsieged?
edit: I also like to get vikings out for denying drops and banshees. Can this be included if question 1 is a yes?
Well... It's not a safe turtle game if you get 2 bases then get crushed by mech, seeing as mech is the turtle game. The only reason I can seeing thor/hellion/tank beating a 2 base composition(if you're both on 2base) is if you just had marine tank and your opponent out-macroed you hard.
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Question here: (Diamond Terran)
TvZ, I use fast gas most of the time, then go for 3 blue flame hellion harrass to 2 cloaked banshee harass then marine tank as a finisher. Most zerg wont survive until there, even if they do they will be severely crippled.
But the thing is, I am now compete with smart zergs that actually gas steal quite early (when precisely factory is built or before). What should I do to create almost the same damage to zerg without the second gas?
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On August 07 2011 03:56 extempest wrote:
Question here: (Diamond Terran)
TvZ, I use fast gas most of the time, then go for 3 blue flame hellion harrass to 2 cloaked banshee harass then marine tank as a finisher. Most zerg wont survive until there, even if they do they will be severely crippled.
But the thing is, I am now compete with smart zergs that actually gas steal quite early (when precisely factory is built or before). What should I do to create almost the same damage to zerg without the second gas?
If you are that dependent on not being gas stealed you should seal off your wall earlier. Since all maps are 4-player maps now except for XNC you can do what the pros do. They start their 2nd supply depot but don't finish it(only like 5%). They do this to completely wall off any type of worker scout. The worker then goes back to mine and when the timing to build the depot is near they go back to finish it. This will slow down your timings a little since you "waste" 100 minerals that early but it won't cripple your build order.
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Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:56 extempest wrote:
Question here: (Diamond Terran)
TvZ, I use fast gas most of the time, then go for 3 blue flame hellion harrass to 2 cloaked banshee harass then marine tank as a finisher. Most zerg wont survive until there, even if they do they will be severely crippled.
But the thing is, I am now compete with smart zergs that actually gas steal quite early (when precisely factory is built or before). What should I do to create almost the same damage to zerg without the second gas?
If you are that dependent on not being gas stealed you should seal off your wall earlier. Since all maps are 4-player maps now except for XNC you can do what the pros do. They start their 2nd supply depot but don't finish it(only like 5%). They do this to completely wall off any type of worker scout. The worker then goes back to mine and when the timing to build the depot is near they go back to finish it. This will slow down your timings a little since you "waste" 100 minerals that early but it won't cripple your build order.
Ok, I guess wall sealed off anytime before rax is finished?
however the question still remains, what happens when zerg gets a lucky scout in 4 player map, (1st scout is correct). and you cant really wall in and that worker scout gas steal me
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On August 07 2011 04:16 extempest wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:56 extempest wrote:
Question here: (Diamond Terran)
TvZ, I use fast gas most of the time, then go for 3 blue flame hellion harrass to 2 cloaked banshee harass then marine tank as a finisher. Most zerg wont survive until there, even if they do they will be severely crippled.
But the thing is, I am now compete with smart zergs that actually gas steal quite early (when precisely factory is built or before). What should I do to create almost the same damage to zerg without the second gas?
If you are that dependent on not being gas stealed you should seal off your wall earlier. Since all maps are 4-player maps now except for XNC you can do what the pros do. They start their 2nd supply depot but don't finish it(only like 5%). They do this to completely wall off any type of worker scout. The worker then goes back to mine and when the timing to build the depot is near they go back to finish it. This will slow down your timings a little since you "waste" 100 minerals that early but it won't cripple your build order. Ok, I guess wall sealed off anytime before rax is finished? however the question still remains, what happens when zerg gets a lucky scout in 4 player map, (1st scout is correct). and you cant really wall in and that worker scout gas steal me
I think the very strat you doing relies on luck so not much you can do tbh. I'd suggest trying to find a more robust playstyle
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On August 07 2011 04:16 extempest wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 03:56 extempest wrote:
Question here: (Diamond Terran)
TvZ, I use fast gas most of the time, then go for 3 blue flame hellion harrass to 2 cloaked banshee harass then marine tank as a finisher. Most zerg wont survive until there, even if they do they will be severely crippled.
But the thing is, I am now compete with smart zergs that actually gas steal quite early (when precisely factory is built or before). What should I do to create almost the same damage to zerg without the second gas?
If you are that dependent on not being gas stealed you should seal off your wall earlier. Since all maps are 4-player maps now except for XNC you can do what the pros do. They start their 2nd supply depot but don't finish it(only like 5%). They do this to completely wall off any type of worker scout. The worker then goes back to mine and when the timing to build the depot is near they go back to finish it. This will slow down your timings a little since you "waste" 100 minerals that early but it won't cripple your build order. Ok, I guess wall sealed off anytime before rax is finished? however the question still remains, what happens when zerg gets a lucky scout in 4 player map, (1st scout is correct). and you cant really wall in and that worker scout gas steal me
Or you can build at the bottom of your ramp, pretty sure a barracks + supply depot is a full wall off
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
In TvZ I often rely entirely on Thors for my anti-air, going thor/hellion with a few tanks. I had an opponent who started making mutalisks and I thought "oh, this is no problem, thors are good vs mutalisks due to splash damage."
We had an engagement with 20 thors vs 40 mutalisks (there were no other units around) and I got completely rolled. He used the magic box technique to mitigate splash damage. What can I do to mitigate the magic box? Or are mutalisks just cost-effective against thors once you get past a certain point?
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Hi,
Been playing pretty good in TvT lately, but whenever I play vs a guy I know I end up losing.
I do pure mech, gas before rax opening every match.
He tends to lean towards 3 rax with 3x tech labs each time, and it slaaaays me.
I basically stop making marines after the second one, and by the time he comes to attack I only have 8-10 hellions and I just die if I FE.
TL;DR How do you stay alive with pure mech early-game? Do I need to make more marines than I currently do, and is FE'ing dangerous?
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Hi,
How do you guys group your medivac? If I group them in 1 control group they don't heal when I try to kite. If I try to put them in 2 control group sometimes my bio run away and the medivac can't catch up. Is there a way to let them auto-follow a bunch of my bio so they don't stop when one gets killed?
Thanks
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I'm a platinum zerg and I've decided to switch from zerg to terran and I'm having a hard time adapting.
I have only been playing for 3 days and against better player then me since I do custom games but it seems to me like there are holes in the terran gameplay for some reasons.
I was able to take a few games from diamond players with the 2 Tanks Rush build and that's the main build I'm practicing but I find myself getting macro crushed by zerg and army crushed by protoss if I don't kill their expos with the first push so it appears to me as gimmicky.
After that I've tried FE build with no gas and even without pressure I get macro crushed.
I know I need to practice my macro a lot but some games I've been decent with macro and still get the same results which is a very one sided lost.
So I'm looking into any insights about terran
This is my build for 2 tank rush
http://ballbreakertv.wordpress.com/guides/the-terran-basics/2-siege-tank-push/
and I'm learning a bit from those two guides
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242653 TvX
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241247 TvZ
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On August 07 2011 09:42 Carlin wrote:
Hi,
Been playing pretty good in TvT lately, but whenever I play vs a guy I know I end up losing.
I do pure mech, gas before rax opening every match.
He tends to lean towards 3 rax with 3x tech labs each time, and it slaaaays me.
I basically stop making marines after the second one, and by the time he comes to attack I only have 8-10 hellions and I just die if I FE.
TL;DR How do you stay alive with pure mech early-game? Do I need to make more marines than I currently do, and is FE'ing dangerous?
It seems a little silly to be asking the question that you are, since I feel like you're on the cusp of knowing yourself.
Yes, pure mech does have issues early game to any one-base timing, especially when you couple it with a fast expand. But as you suggest, it's the fact you're cutting marines and fast expanding against what is basically an all in. Hellions are fine for map control, but you need to use the scouting knowledge you gain from your initial scout, your pokes at the front, and possibly the scan you use to figure out his tech path.
Simply put, if you scout something marauder heavy, you want to be making tanks and marines until you can settle into the early-mid game. You know that hellions are useless against marauders, so use those minerals into something that can defend his 3-rax push.
You need to put your scouting information to work. If he made a single banshee, it seems he could clear you up as well because you're just not reacting.
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How do I survive early 2 base sling/kyrix? Do I scout it? Blindly 2-3 bunker on maps like XNC/Metal? Competent Zergs only show enough lings to crush any poke and deny map control while hiding their main army. They also transfer enough drones to their nat to simulate regular drone counts to hide their larvae usage.
The only way I can think of consistently scouting it is knowing drone counts at both nat and main, but 2 scans (540 mins) is so much to have that safety.
My TvZ revolves around various pokes to force drones. But when I play against this style, I lose all map control and much->all of my army early game when the Zerg wasn't trying to overdrone anyways. If I turtle, I get behind vs a Zerg who overdrones but win against alliners. When I poke and prod, I normally win vs greedy Zergs.
I feel like right now it's just a rock paper scissors game (that even if I'm winning 80% is mostly just hoping they don't call my bluff and sling/sling+bling allin.)
My standard TvZ opener, although I have this problem regardless of which nonallin/tech build I do:
10/12/13/15 standard
Pull gas at 44 end @ 52g
Reactor rax (@100% marine, @52gas)
16CC (cut 1 scv)
17depot (cut scvs)
Pressure @ 3-7 marines depending on their opener
Rax (@150 min)
2nd gas + mine 1st gas
I transition into marine/tank/medivac, with different timings on different buildings/tech/units depending on what I scout
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How to deal with 3 gate VR? I've lost to this build even when I saw it coming with my 1/1/1 build.
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On August 07 2011 08:36 Blazinghand wrote:
In TvZ I often rely entirely on Thors for my anti-air, going thor/hellion with a few tanks. I had an opponent who started making mutalisks and I thought "oh, this is no problem, thors are good vs mutalisks due to splash damage."
We had an engagement with 20 thors vs 40 mutalisks (there were no other units around) and I got completely rolled. He used the magic box technique to mitigate splash damage. What can I do to mitigate the magic box? Or are mutalisks just cost-effective against thors once you get past a certain point?
I don't know what happened really, do you have the replay? 20 thors will beat 40 mutalisks easily unless the mutalisks have a very good upgrade advantage. Thors are very cost effective against mutas, not the other way around.
On August 07 2011 09:42 Carlin wrote:
Hi,
Been playing pretty good in TvT lately, but whenever I play vs a guy I know I end up losing.
I do pure mech, gas before rax opening every match.
He tends to lean towards 3 rax with 3x tech labs each time, and it slaaaays me.
I basically stop making marines after the second one, and by the time he comes to attack I only have 8-10 hellions and I just die if I FE.
TL;DR How do you stay alive with pure mech early-game? Do I need to make more marines than I currently do, and is FE'ing dangerous?
Pure mech is never going to work early without marine support. Could I ask you why you stop making marines? You need a few marines in the beginning when going 1/1/1 or 1/2/1 because of the imminent threat of all-ins and bansheese. Never stop making marines until you feel that you can safely transition into mech. Never start a game with pure mech, that would be suicide. It would be the same as a protoss rushing for mass immortals and only making 2 stalkers.
On August 07 2011 11:19 Kavas wrote:
Hi,
How do you guys group your medivac? If I group them in 1 control group they don't heal when I try to kite. If I try to put them in 2 control group sometimes my bio run away and the medivac can't catch up. Is there a way to let them auto-follow a bunch of my bio so they don't stop when one gets killed?
Thanks
No, the only way to autofollow with your medivacs is either by a-moving on your own unit or m-moving on your own unit. If that unit dies your medivacs will lose the follow command and get a "s"-command so that they'll only heal in the nearby area.
But since you already have your medivacs on a seperate hotkey, it wouldn't be so hard to just move-command different units in your bioball. If one dies, only one medivac stops following and when you see that issue it another command. This can be very apm-heavy so what I do since I am so lazy is to move-command them to a unit in the middle of my bioball. That way the unit that has all the medivacs after it won't die and the medivacs will not be far behind the army.
Or... you could just a-move with the medivacs and control them seperately while you micro the army. Very hard to do though if you don't have good multitasking.
On August 07 2011 13:13 Scila wrote:
How to deal with 3 gate VR? I've lost to this build even when I saw it coming with my 1/1/1 build.
It's very tricky to defend the 3 gate VR and needs some fancy building placement and unit compositions. If you go 1/1/1, do you mean that you get siege tanks or just to get faster Starport?
Nevertheless, tanks work great against stalkers but are expensive and don't do well against Void rays, duh. I need a replay so that I can see what you did wrong.
If you see it coming and you aren't sure about your unit control, make an engineering bay and build a turret + a bunker at your ramp. This way the void rays can't possibly attack you in the front lines without taking damage. Now here is a tricky part, if you built your buildings close to the edges of your base it will be hard to defend against any kind of charge-up by the void rays. When you see it coming, fly all your buildings closer to the main CC and you'll be fine.
Stim is a great upgrade for your marines and if you aquire it the void ray threat will be a cakewalk. Bait him in and stim forward to snipe, kind of like bansheese in TvT. One thing that you have to be careful about is when he has his void rays over the edge of your base don't run forward recklessly. If he has a sentry or two he can forcefield your marines and pick them of with stalkers. Then it's GG if you don't have lots of turrets covering your base.
But yeah, replay please if you thought this advice wasn't good enough.
On August 07 2011 12:11 Emperor_Earth wrote:
How do I survive early 2 base sling/kyrix? Do I scout it? Blindly 2-3 bunker on maps like XNC/Metal? Competent Zergs only show enough lings to crush any poke and deny map control while hiding their main army. They also transfer enough drones to their nat to simulate regular drone counts to hide their larvae usage.
The only way I can think of consistently scouting it is knowing drone counts at both nat and main, but 2 scans (540 mins) is so much to have that safety.
My TvZ revolves around various pokes to force drones. But when I play against this style, I lose all map control and much->all of my army early game when the Zerg wasn't trying to overdrone anyways. If I turtle, I get behind vs a Zerg who overdrones but win against alliners. When I poke and prod, I normally win vs greedy Zergs.
I feel like right now it's just a rock paper scissors game (that even if I'm winning 80% is mostly just hoping they don't call my bluff and sling/sling+bling allin.)
My standard TvZ opener, although I have this problem regardless of which nonallin/tech build I do:
10/12/13/15 standard
Pull gas at 44 end @ 52g
Reactor rax (@100% marine, @52gas)
16CC (cut 1 scv)
17depot (cut scvs)
Pressure @ 3-7 marines depending on their opener
Rax (@150 min)
2nd gas + mine 1st gas
I transition into marine/tank/medivac, with different timings on different buildings/tech/units depending on what I scout
I'd like a replay because your build looks very funky to me. Why do you make a reactor but not go for hellions? It does not make sense to me. Your second gas is before your factory? Hm... I really need to have that replay. IT doesn't have to be against the kyrix all-in, just a replay showing your BO. Thanks!
Here are some tips that I always write for TvZ:
You can only pressure with marines until he has speedlings. When he has speedlings you lose will lose everything if he catches you off guard. When you get stim the pressuring can resume again. So get a faster stim or get hellions if you want to keep on pressuring. That's why I don't understand the reactor on the barracks. You can't get stim early and you don't go for hellions.
The baneling bust will lose to a good siege tank positioning and wall-in. Again, this can only be helpful if I can see a replay of yours.
Hope these helped...
GL HF
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How do I not die against a protoss?
I'm a diamond terran and I do a reaper expand. I've been experimenting on building inside my base and out but i've not had success with either so far. even with 2 bunkers, i just seem so far behind especially if he gets 1-2 colossi out and i'll have only 2 vikings
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On August 07 2011 15:17 Chaggi wrote:
How do I not die against a protoss?
I'm a diamond terran and I do a reaper expand. I've been experimenting on building inside my base and out but i've not had success with either so far. even with 2 bunkers, i just seem so far behind especially if he gets 1-2 colossi out and i'll have only 2 vikings
Do you have a replay? It's veeeery hard to judge on what you are doing wrong. But 1-2 collosus shouldn't be a problem with proper ground support and a good mix of marauders and marines.
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When going for the 3 tank push do your float out your CC to your natural before or after you send you begin your tank/marine push?
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In most of my TvZs I tend to lose to muta a lot. What is the best way to defend against mutas?
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Terrans help me thread main replay
"Just bruframeherrions and LINE THEM UP!"
I am a zerg player so general TvZ if you are having trouble with infestors (more than 50% of your TvZ) I would suggest doing a 2 base blue flame hellion ghost build, generally if they go roaches you'll have some trouble (scouting duh). If they are going roaches hard switch to tanks and marauders, you should still have a few ghosts to deal with early infestors and marauders are always a good unit against infestors, if you scout again and he has spire you can switch to marine ghost which is also very good against muta.
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Just curious, but has anyone found a solution to hellions in TvT that doesn't involve hellions?
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EPT
