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On August 18 2011 03:03 scFranco wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 03:00 Blazinghand wrote:On August 18 2011 02:54 scFranco wrote:
Hey guys, I've been struggling in TvZ, and marine tank makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Are there any non-marine tank builds that are also easy on the mechanics? Basically, no. All TvZ builds require a lot of mechanics and micro; in general, in most matchups, if your opponent has superior mechanics to you, he will win. In TvZ in particular, due to the high speed of zerg units coupled with the high firepower and splash damage on both sides, both the zerg and the terran players need solid mechanics. If it's marine-splitting that's causing you trouble, you may want to go for some sort of hellion/thor attack, which, while vulnerable to roaches and to an extent magic-box mutalisks, is quite effective against the standard ling/bling/muta. What in particular about the matchup is causing you trouble? Maybe with the right style of practice you can get more into the hang of it. Basically, I open up with a standard 8 min 3 tank push to secure my natural, and I try to constantly be dropping him, but he always just seems to have more shit than me. I know my macro is not good, but I don't reallly know how many buildings is enough before it's just a matter of me not constantly producing
Hey dude, I have been doing a 3 tank push around 9:30 but i fast expand and probably have alot more marines than you. It makes many masters zerg cry. If you are on the NA server I wouldnt mind showing you the build. Just whisper me in game RevSynC.177.
I usually play between 7-10pm pst. Or if anyone else wants me to show them that would be fine too
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On August 17 2011 05:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:03 Scila wrote:
Some unit control questions:
Do you/ should you hotkey drops? I see a lot of pros just picking up 4 marauders and making the drop without putting it on a hotkey. It's also really annoying to then select your dropship and 4 marauders, and not be able to stim because the Medivac overrides them.
How do you rally air units vs toss? Do you just rally them to a position, or rally them to a unit?
Do you/should you hotkey medivacs? Or is it better to just put them on follow on your bio?
If you rally vikings to a moving unit, will they attack automatically or do you have to manually tell them to attack when the enemy appears?
I normally hotkey my medivac once there are dudes in it to guide it via minimap to its location. If you find difficulty in selecting just the bio without the dropship, consider just dragging a box over the whole lot of them then hitting "TAB" to highlight the Marauders. Then you can stim. It takes an extra button press but always works. Against toss, I set a waypointed rally point (if i'm out on the field). I rally everything to a xel naga tower then shift-click it through a bunch of marauders. This way, it'll follow my army but if I lose all 3 marauders that are being rallied to, my reinforcements still rally closeby. I don't hotkey my medivacs seperately; setting them to follow or grouping them with your bio will keep them close by regardless, and if you DO want to micro them seperately, they're easy to grab with cntrl+click since they are over your army anyways. Once the vikings have reached the unit they're rallied to, they will automatically attack nearby units. Against Colossi though you probably want to micro anyways.
The waypointed rally point is a fantastic idea...I've only used it a couple times when units have been popping out outside of my wall in, but I've never thought about using it for quick reinforcements. If the end of the rally is a unit, and that unit dies, will the reinforcements just go up to the last rally point and stay there? So it'd be a better idea to have the rally point at a watchtower, then a unit, instead of like, watchtower, opponent's natural ramp, unit?
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On August 14 2011 19:33 Ashok wrote:
Whats a good late game SCV count? Perhaps assuming three OCs. I'm thinking 70.
Around 60-70 is quite nice. Really depends on if you are perma scanning or muling alot I think.
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On August 18 2011 19:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 19:33 Ashok wrote:
Whats a good late game SCV count? Perhaps assuming three OCs. I'm thinking 70. Around 60-70 is quite nice. Really depends on if you are perma scanning or muling alot I think.
Thanks man.
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On August 18 2011 23:08 Ashok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 19:50 Numy wrote:On August 14 2011 19:33 Ashok wrote:
Whats a good late game SCV count? Perhaps assuming three OCs. I'm thinking 70. Around 60-70 is quite nice. Really depends on if you are perma scanning or muling alot I think. Thanks man.
You can go ever lower than that and get like +4OCs late game but that requires quite a lot of multitasking and good map awareness. Also transitioning to the OCs is really tough. Lots of experience needed there
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What can kind of all-in is best versus Terran at the current gameplay? I realy hate mirror matchups and TvT is no exception, so I just wanna get over with it, I really can't stand it.
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I don't understand TvT at all. Why can't you just go mass marauder-viking and auto win with a 7-8 minute push, because you know the guy is going for blueflame lol. I'm top 8 diamond and being matched almost solely vs Masters, and every game they go for blue flame drop. So why has TvT evolved to Hellions when Hellions seem to be terrible vs everything except for Marines and SCVs? I mean, I understand why hellion backstabs are so strong because they demolish mineral lines so fast, but won't they autolose in a base trade, which is what TvT often comes down to? Simply because they suck vs Tanks, which is the backbone of TvT (or at least was).
Please explain the current TvT to me, I really don't understand it.
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It's just become part of the mech play for Terrans who want to go all mech. Hellions provide a mineral dump and drops are just as, if not more, effective than Marine drops. I don't think you'll ever see someone rely exclusively on BFH...if meching, then BFH+Tanks+Thors+Vikings, and if not, then just a BFH opening harass into Marines, Medivacs, Tanks, Vikings, since you already have tech labs on factories. Granted, it IS a huge investment, but so is opening cloaked banshees, and that's still around.
TL;DR: Tanks are STILL the backbone of TvT. BFH are used to harass, and then to transition into the Marines, Tanks, Medivac standard, unless the player wants to mech, in which case BFH+Tanks+Thors+Vikings gives them a mineral dump and mobile units that are good against melee.
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I've spent the last ~3 days watching many hours of pro streams and it seems many players in Masters on ALL servers are just massing hellions in the midgame and geeting a support unit like ravens or an Anti AIr unit like Thors to back them up. The difference between cloak and BFH is that you can go cloak and have a tank with siege mode out at an early point in order to defend and early push, and I just don't see that kind of defense being as easily reachable when you are getting so many hellions in the early game. It just seems like if I shut down the drop with a viking, I can A-move into my opponents base with marauders or tanks if they opened BFH?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 20 2011 01:06 -Aura- wrote:
I don't understand TvT at all. Why can't you just go mass Marauder-Viking and auto win with a 7-8 minute push, because you know the guy is going for blueflame lol. I'm top 8 diamond and being matched almost solely vs Masters, and every game they go for blue flame drop. So why has TvT evolved to Hellions when Hellions seem to be terrible vs everything except for Marines and SCVs? I mean, I understand why Hellion backstabs are so strong because they demolish mineral lines so fast, but won't they autolose in a base trade, which is what TvT often comes down to? Simply because they suck vs Tanks, which is the backbone of TvT (or at least was).
Please explain the current TvT to me, I really don't understand it.
On August 20 2011 01:26 -Aura- wrote:
I've spent the last ~3 days watching many hours of pro streams and it seems many players in Masters on ALL servers are just massing Hellions in the midgame and geeting a support unit like ravens or an Anti Air unit like Thors to back them up. The difference between cloak and BFH is that you can go cloak and have a Tank with siege mode out at an early point in order to defend and early push, and I just don't see that kind of defense being as easily reachable when you are getting so many Hellions in the early game. It just seems like if I shut down the drop with a Viking, I can A-move into my opponents base with Marauders or Tanks if they opened BFH?
A lot of this depends on whether you're all-in with that 8-9 minute push or not. If you're on 1 base and are all-in, it's probably pretty strong, assuming your opponent is in the dark as to what's going on.
How Hellion Rush Defends in TvT:
Hellions are bad against anything that's not light. However, on certain maps (Tal'Darim Altar comes to mind, as well as Shattered Temple, Searing Crater, Xel Naga Caverns and other maps with lots of ways to get into the Natural or Main and an open center) it's very easy for them to run by. If you want to attack a player who's going Hellions and crush him, you need to either make Hellions of your own (in which case it'll be fairly even) or go for a Hellion "counter" unit: Marauder, Thor or Tank.
Commonly Used Anti-Hellion Timings:
- Thor Rush basically takes a huge crap all over any Hellion-based opening. Thors are baller. Their problem is that they come out pretty slow and are easy to scout, and are bad against a lot of builds.... well, bad against every other build. If you do Thor rush without him scouting though, it straight-up wins. He'll have some Marines, a bunch of Hellions, maybe a Banshee, and plenty of tears if he tries to defend. The main issue here is that Hellions are awesome at scouting, and the threat of counter-attack-- but barring that there's very little a Hellion+Starport defense can do blind against a Thor rush, especially if you wall off. If you blindly rush Thor you'll probably win against someone who blindly rushes Hellions, but this isn't overall a good strategy since Thor rush is bad against everything else, and a Hellion/Starport opening has excellent scouting.
- Marauders and Tanks are both great against Hellions, and like Thor Rush both suffer from the danger of Hellion run-by. Unless you've walled off your base he will try to go in with his Hellions and kill every scv as soon as you leave, Hellions are fast enough to probably be able to do that and get home in time to defend as well. These units are faster and lower tech and more effective against Hellions than a thor. The difference, though, is that unlike the Thor, these units are very vulnerable to Banshees. If he scouts a late expo from you, he will make a Starport, and sometimes a 2nd Factory depending on what you're doing with your resources. His objective is to make like 1 Banshee, and if you all-in him he will kill the Marines with his Hellions (or soften them up) then win the push with the uncloaked Banshee.
- Marauder/Viking seems like the best solution, than. This is a push that should work well against Hellion/Banshee, and basically dominate it. If you get ahead in Viking count and he doesn't make Marines or Tanks in time, you will win. BUT if you can do this without him noticing, I will be very surprised. A lot of meching players keep a tech lab on standby (made by the Rax) in the early game so they can pump a Tank instead of a couple Hellions if there's some craziness going on, or move a Starport back and forth between reactor and tech lab if you're trying for air control or he needs more Banshees. In theory, Marauder/Viking should be fine, but... trying to go Marauder-Viking is difficult because by making Marauders, you are taking gas away from your Viking count, so the Hellion player can have the same number of Vikings as you + 1 Banshee for every 4 Marauders you have. Even so, it's possible for a Marauder/Viking push to win, but you better make well sure you have enough Vikings... because Hellion play has very strong scouting; he'll always be at your front, in your base, and on the xel nagas, so you won't surprise him with the push. He might even make some Marines, or dump gas into Tanks or something, if he knows you're going for a timing attack.
Conclusion: Currently, it's hard to launch a timing attack in TvT that can't be scouted ahead of time by an opponent who's rushing Hellions (good at scouting) and air units (also good at scouting) who is also Terran (scans, anyone? so good at scouting). If you do so, you'll probably win; but it's very, very hard. He may also notice your lack of a CC if you are all-inning. Remember, TvT has an enormous defender's advantage, which is why timing attacks are tough to pull off. If he can see what's coming like a minute ahead of time and there's a 30 second rush distance, he can have like 2 Tanks with siege before you show up at his front ._. and that's kinda hard to deal with.
The thing to remember though is that for all their harassment, these Hellions are not the kind of units you push with (unless your opponeent is massing Hellions or Marines or something). So I'd recommend you just take more bases than him, and do your best to fend off the harass. Expos > not expos. Depending on the map, you may be able to quickly take a safe third without overextending yourself (Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks etc) and using Tanks to defend. Eventually, he will start making Tanks too, and it'll be full mech vs whatever Tank style you're using, which will be fun times. Try to wrest air control away from him and counter-drop with Marauders if you can slip through his air control. If he's going full mech he has no mobile units that are good against Marauders. Do your best to control either his Tank count via aggression and multi-pronging, or control his Tank effectiveness by seizing air control.
TvT is more about expos and harassment than timing pushes. Make walls everywhere to restrict Hellion movement, use either Vikings or turrets to stop his Hellion drops, and do your own kind of thang. Don't try to end it before 15 minutes against a Hellion --> Tanks player unless he derps up somewhere. Fast thirds are your friend.
Final note: you could also make Hellions of your own. Hellions are pretty good against Hellions, and kill them faster than Marauders. This will limit the economic damage he can deal to you. But I'm guessing you're probably not a fan of this.
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On August 20 2011 04:01 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 01:06 -Aura- wrote:
I don't understand TvT at all. Why can't you just go mass Marauder-Viking and auto win with a 7-8 minute push, because you know the guy is going for blueflame lol. I'm top 8 diamond and being matched almost solely vs Masters, and every game they go for blue flame drop. So why has TvT evolved to Hellions when Hellions seem to be terrible vs everything except for Marines and SCVs? I mean, I understand why Hellion backstabs are so strong because they demolish mineral lines so fast, but won't they autolose in a base trade, which is what TvT often comes down to? Simply because they suck vs Tanks, which is the backbone of TvT (or at least was).
Please explain the current TvT to me, I really don't understand it. Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 01:26 -Aura- wrote:
I've spent the last ~3 days watching many hours of pro streams and it seems many players in Masters on ALL servers are just massing Hellions in the midgame and geeting a support unit like ravens or an Anti Air unit like Thors to back them up. The difference between cloak and BFH is that you can go cloak and have a Tank with siege mode out at an early point in order to defend and early push, and I just don't see that kind of defense being as easily reachable when you are getting so many Hellions in the early game. It just seems like if I shut down the drop with a Viking, I can A-move into my opponents base with Marauders or Tanks if they opened BFH? A lot of this depends on whether you're all-in with that 8-9 minute push or not. If you're on 1 base and are all-in, it's probably pretty strong, assuming your opponent is in the dark as to what's going on. How Hellion Rush Defends in TvT:Hellions are bad against anything that's not light. However, on certain maps (Tal'Darim Altar comes to mind, as well as Shattered Temple, Searing Crater, Xel Naga Caverns and other maps with lots of ways to get into the Natural or Main and an open center) it's very easy for them to run by. If you want to attack a player who's going Hellions and crush him, you need to either make Hellions of your own (in which case it'll be fairly even) or go for a Hellion "counter" unit: Marauder, Thor or Tank. Commonly Used Anti-Hellion Timings: - Thor Rush basically takes a huge crap all over any Hellion-based opening. Thors are baller. Their problem is that they come out pretty slow and are easy to scout, and are bad against a lot of builds.... well, bad against every other build. If you do Thor rush without him scouting though, it straight-up wins. He'll have some Marines, a bunch of Hellions, maybe a Banshee, and plenty of tears if he tries to defend. The main issue here is that Hellions are awesome at scouting, and the threat of counter-attack-- but barring that there's very little a Hellion+Starport defense can do blind against a Thor rush, especially if you wall off. If you blindly rush Thor you'll probably win against someone who blindly rushes Hellions, but this isn't overall a good strategy since Thor rush is bad against everything else, and a Hellion/Starport opening has excellent scouting.
- Marauders and Tanks are both great against Hellions, and like Thor Rush both suffer from the danger of Hellion run-by. Unless you've walled off your base he will try to go in with his Hellions and kill every scv as soon as you leave, Hellions are fast enough to probably be able to do that and get home in time to defend as well. These units are faster and lower tech and more effective against Hellions than a thor. The difference, though, is that unlike the Thor, these units are very vulnerable to Banshees. If he scouts a late expo from you, he will make a Starport, and sometimes a 2nd Factory depending on what you're doing with your resources. His objective is to make like 1 Banshee, and if you all-in him he will kill the Marines with his Hellions (or soften them up) then win the push with the uncloaked Banshee.
- Marauder/Viking seems like the best solution, than. This is a push that should work well against Hellion/Banshee, and basically dominate it. If you get ahead in Viking count and he doesn't make Marines or Tanks in time, you will win. BUT if you can do this without him noticing, I will be very surprised. A lot of meching players keep a tech lab on standby (made by the Rax) in the early game so they can pump a Tank instead of a couple Hellions if there's some craziness going on, or move a Starport back and forth between reactor and tech lab if you're trying for air control or he needs more Banshees. In theory, Marauder/Viking should be fine, but... trying to go Marauder-Viking is difficult because by making Marauders, you are taking gas away from your Viking count, so the Hellion player can have the same number of Vikings as you + 1 Banshee for every 4 Marauders you have. Even so, it's possible for a Marauder/Viking push to win, but you better make well sure you have enough Vikings... because Hellion play has very strong scouting; he'll always be at your front, in your base, and on the xel nagas, so you won't surprise him with the push. He might even make some Marines, or dump gas into Tanks or something, if he knows you're going for a timing attack.
Conclusion: Currently, it's hard to launch a timing attack in TvT that can't be scouted ahead of time by an opponent who's rushing Hellions (good at scouting) and air units (also good at scouting) who is also Terran (scans, anyone? so good at scouting). If you do so, you'll probably win; but it's very, very hard. He may also notice your lack of a CC if you are all-inning. Remember, TvT has an enormous defender's advantage, which is why timing attacks are tough to pull off. If he can see what's coming like a minute ahead of time and there's a 30 second rush distance, he can have like 2 Tanks with siege before you show up at his front ._. and that's kinda hard to deal with. The thing to remember though is that for all their harassment, these Hellions are not the kind of units you push with (unless your opponeent is massing Hellions or Marines or something). So I'd recommend you just take more bases than him, and do your best to fend off the harass. Expos > not expos. Depending on the map, you may be able to quickly take a safe third without overextending yourself (Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks etc) and using Tanks to defend. Eventually, he will start making Tanks too, and it'll be full mech vs whatever Tank style you're using, which will be fun times. Try to wrest air control away from him and counter-drop with Marauders if you can slip through his air control. If he's going full mech he has no mobile units that are good against Marauders. Do your best to control either his Tank count via aggression and multi-pronging, or control his Tank effectiveness by seizing air control. TvT is more about expos and harassment than timing pushes. Make walls everywhere to restrict Hellion movement, use either Vikings or turrets to stop his Hellion drops, and do your own kind of thang. Don't try to end it before 15 minutes against a Hellion --> Tanks player unless he derps up somewhere. Fast thirds are your friend. Final note: you could also make Hellions of your own. Hellions are pretty good against Hellions, and kill them faster than Marauders. This will limit the economic damage he can deal to you. But I'm guessing you're probably not a fan of this.
First of all thanks a lot for taking the time to explain TvT to me, I really appreciate it. Also, as you can guess, I dislike the Hellion style for my own use because my TvTs often turn into a base race, and hellions suck in a base race. I'm thinking of a 6 marauder 1-2 viking stim push into an expo at 9ish which wouldn't be so all in. So thanks a lot, I really didn't understand why all the pros were going hellion. Especially because it feels like you can shut down hellions totally by walling with depots and patrolling a viking near the edge of your base. Don't worry, I'm not trying to all in over here, just to punish people who throw down an expo knowing that they will have nothing but a bunch of hellions and maybe a banshee for a while. Thanks again.
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On August 20 2011 07:37 -Aura- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:01 Blazinghand wrote:On August 20 2011 01:06 -Aura- wrote:
I don't understand TvT at all. Why can't you just go mass Marauder-Viking and auto win with a 7-8 minute push, because you know the guy is going for blueflame lol. I'm top 8 diamond and being matched almost solely vs Masters, and every game they go for blue flame drop. So why has TvT evolved to Hellions when Hellions seem to be terrible vs everything except for Marines and SCVs? I mean, I understand why Hellion backstabs are so strong because they demolish mineral lines so fast, but won't they autolose in a base trade, which is what TvT often comes down to? Simply because they suck vs Tanks, which is the backbone of TvT (or at least was).
Please explain the current TvT to me, I really don't understand it. On August 20 2011 01:26 -Aura- wrote:
I've spent the last ~3 days watching many hours of pro streams and it seems many players in Masters on ALL servers are just massing Hellions in the midgame and geeting a support unit like ravens or an Anti Air unit like Thors to back them up. The difference between cloak and BFH is that you can go cloak and have a Tank with siege mode out at an early point in order to defend and early push, and I just don't see that kind of defense being as easily reachable when you are getting so many Hellions in the early game. It just seems like if I shut down the drop with a Viking, I can A-move into my opponents base with Marauders or Tanks if they opened BFH? A lot of this depends on whether you're all-in with that 8-9 minute push or not. If you're on 1 base and are all-in, it's probably pretty strong, assuming your opponent is in the dark as to what's going on. How Hellion Rush Defends in TvT:Hellions are bad against anything that's not light. However, on certain maps (Tal'Darim Altar comes to mind, as well as Shattered Temple, Searing Crater, Xel Naga Caverns and other maps with lots of ways to get into the Natural or Main and an open center) it's very easy for them to run by. If you want to attack a player who's going Hellions and crush him, you need to either make Hellions of your own (in which case it'll be fairly even) or go for a Hellion "counter" unit: Marauder, Thor or Tank. Commonly Used Anti-Hellion Timings: - Thor Rush basically takes a huge crap all over any Hellion-based opening. Thors are baller. Their problem is that they come out pretty slow and are easy to scout, and are bad against a lot of builds.... well, bad against every other build. If you do Thor rush without him scouting though, it straight-up wins. He'll have some Marines, a bunch of Hellions, maybe a Banshee, and plenty of tears if he tries to defend. The main issue here is that Hellions are awesome at scouting, and the threat of counter-attack-- but barring that there's very little a Hellion+Starport defense can do blind against a Thor rush, especially if you wall off. If you blindly rush Thor you'll probably win against someone who blindly rushes Hellions, but this isn't overall a good strategy since Thor rush is bad against everything else, and a Hellion/Starport opening has excellent scouting.
- Marauders and Tanks are both great against Hellions, and like Thor Rush both suffer from the danger of Hellion run-by. Unless you've walled off your base he will try to go in with his Hellions and kill every scv as soon as you leave, Hellions are fast enough to probably be able to do that and get home in time to defend as well. These units are faster and lower tech and more effective against Hellions than a thor. The difference, though, is that unlike the Thor, these units are very vulnerable to Banshees. If he scouts a late expo from you, he will make a Starport, and sometimes a 2nd Factory depending on what you're doing with your resources. His objective is to make like 1 Banshee, and if you all-in him he will kill the Marines with his Hellions (or soften them up) then win the push with the uncloaked Banshee.
- Marauder/Viking seems like the best solution, than. This is a push that should work well against Hellion/Banshee, and basically dominate it. If you get ahead in Viking count and he doesn't make Marines or Tanks in time, you will win. BUT if you can do this without him noticing, I will be very surprised. A lot of meching players keep a tech lab on standby (made by the Rax) in the early game so they can pump a Tank instead of a couple Hellions if there's some craziness going on, or move a Starport back and forth between reactor and tech lab if you're trying for air control or he needs more Banshees. In theory, Marauder/Viking should be fine, but... trying to go Marauder-Viking is difficult because by making Marauders, you are taking gas away from your Viking count, so the Hellion player can have the same number of Vikings as you + 1 Banshee for every 4 Marauders you have. Even so, it's possible for a Marauder/Viking push to win, but you better make well sure you have enough Vikings... because Hellion play has very strong scouting; he'll always be at your front, in your base, and on the xel nagas, so you won't surprise him with the push. He might even make some Marines, or dump gas into Tanks or something, if he knows you're going for a timing attack.
Conclusion: Currently, it's hard to launch a timing attack in TvT that can't be scouted ahead of time by an opponent who's rushing Hellions (good at scouting) and air units (also good at scouting) who is also Terran (scans, anyone? so good at scouting). If you do so, you'll probably win; but it's very, very hard. He may also notice your lack of a CC if you are all-inning. Remember, TvT has an enormous defender's advantage, which is why timing attacks are tough to pull off. If he can see what's coming like a minute ahead of time and there's a 30 second rush distance, he can have like 2 Tanks with siege before you show up at his front ._. and that's kinda hard to deal with. The thing to remember though is that for all their harassment, these Hellions are not the kind of units you push with (unless your opponeent is massing Hellions or Marines or something). So I'd recommend you just take more bases than him, and do your best to fend off the harass. Expos > not expos. Depending on the map, you may be able to quickly take a safe third without overextending yourself (Shakuras Plateau, Typhon Peaks etc) and using Tanks to defend. Eventually, he will start making Tanks too, and it'll be full mech vs whatever Tank style you're using, which will be fun times. Try to wrest air control away from him and counter-drop with Marauders if you can slip through his air control. If he's going full mech he has no mobile units that are good against Marauders. Do your best to control either his Tank count via aggression and multi-pronging, or control his Tank effectiveness by seizing air control. TvT is more about expos and harassment than timing pushes. Make walls everywhere to restrict Hellion movement, use either Vikings or turrets to stop his Hellion drops, and do your own kind of thang. Don't try to end it before 15 minutes against a Hellion --> Tanks player unless he derps up somewhere. Fast thirds are your friend. Final note: you could also make Hellions of your own. Hellions are pretty good against Hellions, and kill them faster than Marauders. This will limit the economic damage he can deal to you. But I'm guessing you're probably not a fan of this. First of all thanks a lot for taking the time to explain TvT to me, I really appreciate it. Also, as you can guess, I dislike the Hellion style for my own use because my TvTs often turn into a base race, and hellions suck in a base race. I'm thinking of a 6 marauder 1-2 viking stim push into an expo at 9ish which wouldn't be so all in. So thanks a lot, I really didn't understand why all the pros were going hellion. Especially because it feels like you can shut down hellions totally by walling with depots and patrolling a viking near the edge of your base. Don't worry, I'm not trying to all in over here, just to punish people who throw down an expo knowing that they will have nothing but a bunch of hellions and maybe a banshee for a while. Thanks again.
I wouldn't suggest you doing that kind of push and it would be very all iny. Sounds like you would be teching hardcore while getting tons of rax so you won't have an expansions for awhile then pushing out with a force that honestly wouldn't do a lot of damage vs a solid mech opening. Also people almost always throw down their expansions inbase and move out when they comfortable so that kind of play would be even more all in vs a good solid mech opening as I said. Saying "you not trying to all in" yet outlining basically an all in doesn't mean it won't be all in. You can't just do a timing push and throw down an expansion then claim it wasn't a timing push that HAS to do massive damage to actually put you even in the game.
Blazing as usual outlined the problems with those kind of timings perfectly. A hellion play will almost always have perfect scouting so he WILL be prepared for any sneaky timing like that. The only way to actually abuse a timing vs a good mech player with a good opening is to exploit a flaw or opening in his build. This is really hard to in a ladder game since you don't really have enough resources to study what a player does or if he will do the optimal transitions out of his opening.
If you want to play bio then I suggest sitting down for weeks even months and grinding out your mechanics/multitasking to the absolute best. That's the only way you will be able to fight against masters and above level players who are meching.
On August 20 2011 01:26 -Aura- wrote:
I've spent the last ~3 days watching many hours of pro streams and it seems many players in Masters on ALL servers are just massing hellions in the midgame and geeting a support unit like ravens or an Anti AIr unit like Thors to back them up. The difference between cloak and BFH is that you can go cloak and have a tank with siege mode out at an early point in order to defend and early push, and I just don't see that kind of defense being as easily reachable when you are getting so many hellions in the early game. It just seems like if I shut down the drop with a viking, I can A-move into my opponents base with marauders or tanks if they opened BFH?
Your grasp on timings is very weird. I assume this is just because as you stated you are diamond. There's no possible way you can get cloak a viking and a tank with siege out in time for a hellion play. Hellion openings poke way sooner and hit way sooner. Also a lot of builds don't go straight blue flame but go with say gas first 1 gas banshee with 2 hellions then swap and into blue flame. There is no way you will have your own cloaked banshees as well as vikings/tanks in time to deal with the initial poke. Also there's no way you will get the infrastructure nor money to actually get cloak siege tanks and marauders out before he can get a decent enough defence WITH an expansion.
Anyway overall I think your mindset is a bit wrong in TvT. You seem to be in this rut of "must do timing to kill him" type mindset which isn't really how TvT works. TvT doesn't really have any strict timings, sure there are builds that are weak to certain plays within a certain timeframe but that isn't really a predetermined timing you can plan to execute before the game. It's really a matchup that is defined by mechanics/decision making and general army play. It's a great matchup to refine these points once you have a solid opening. I suggest you focus on using the matchup in this way rather than trying to find some weird all in to catch people that have flaws in their play.
On August 19 2011 18:11 Bleak wrote:
What can kind of all-in is best versus Terran at the current gameplay? I realy hate mirror matchups and TvT is no exception, so I just wanna get over with it, I really can't stand it.
I wouldn't suggest this build for a person that wants to "get games over with". Current terran play almost always covers the base with marines for reapers as soon as your scv scout doesn't see more than 1 marine(even more cautious if 0). It might work on big mains when the person goes for a gas first build but otherwise it's not something that I think will kill an opponent often. It will do some damage normally but it won't be the "get games over with quickly" build you looking for. Honestly just proxy rax and hope your opponent is shit or change races.
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Can anyone recommend builds that I should look into? I'm in plat right now (More or less spammed 3 rax till I got there) but that's not effective anymore and I've been winging it a lot recently (Which doesn't work!)
I'd ideally want to learn like 1 BO per match up or at least have some sense of what to transition into because right now I just make stuff haha.
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Hi folks, awesome thread. I've been hearing about the P v T 1 1 1 all in and variations, and my question is which is the best? I've heard of some that incorporate expansions, while others hit early. Personally I'm looking for the one that hits hardest and fastest. What was the build that MVP went against MC? That is the one I'd love to study and eventually achieve. Does anyone have a replay of it? If not do you know the build or the build in general? My tvp is horrid  . Thanks
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Is MMM extremely out of style now? I see mech everywhere I go.
Terran is my offrace, and I've always went MMM, adding ghosts where necessary. Is it better to go mech?
I know mech Terran is immobile other than the hellions and vikings, and the bio ball has a generally larger mobile force, but is it... unfavourable to go MMM?
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Mech is all i see in high diamond and vs all my high masters friends.
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Hi ive been having huge trouble early game tvp, is there a solid build that is safe against *most cheeses (there are sooooo many) but still establishes a relatively fast cc for a good macro game?
ps i am sick of the 2 rax reactor first opening, its gotten stale, i think
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On August 20 2011 13:39 ComBro1 wrote:
Hi ive been having huge trouble early game tvp, is there a solid build that is safe against *most cheeses (there are sooooo many) but still establishes a relatively fast cc for a good macro game?
ps i am sick of the 2 rax reactor first opening, its gotten stale, i think
I'm still relatively new to Terran as it's my offrace, but I have been practicing the 1 rax FE.
Honestly though, there are so many possible cheeses, but if you're trying to eliminate cannon rush and proxy gates, then just wall off, make sure to produce units out constantly and repair buildings. Early zealot pressure should hit around the time when your wall is just about to finish.
As for cannon rushing, that won't be a problem unless they manage to scout your base first and proceed to begin inside.
I've never been cheesed like that before, but if you want, you can get an ebay, make your CC into a PF, then PF them. It was featured on When Cheese Fails, so it has worked before.
Anyways, hope that post made sense.
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I find that the problem with the 1 rax fe is that I simply get sentry 4 gated and cant repair the bunkers, and just die. Do I fix that with closer bunkers to the cc or more bunkers or what? i dont want to have to make more than 3 rax total before I tech up.
Edit: sorry but when cheese fails stuff usually work in mid-high diamond, and i dont wanna pf rush thattt bad
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EPT
