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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 04 2011 05:29 ahuang wrote:
Is there any easy way to make sure hellions only target drones and not the queen/hatch/pool?
Or is it just about positioning the hellions properly so the drones are the only thing they can attack?
This seems like a really dumb question but I can never seem to get full drone-roasting potential from my hellions if I decide to suicide them.
(This is going from a Reactored Hellion Expand)
If you drop them, it's wise to drop them into the mineral line. They auto fire the closest enemy if i'm not mistaken.
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On November 04 2011 05:15 Fealthas wrote:
DO you need to keep constant pressure in the tvz matchup?
If I dont it seems liek they always tech to infesotr /bl and i cant win anymore.
Watch the game Ryung vs YuGiOh on daybreak from GSL this season if you can. He played, i wouldn't say passively, but he didn't really commit a lot.
I still don't fully understand how you should play, but i think if you bring some soft harass in early to mid game its ok and if you see them taking uber fast 3rd try punishing it. You have to keep up with bases in my opinion. So when he takes 3rd you should be attacking soon (usually at around 10:30 to 11:00), not committing 100%, but rather pushing out and taking your own 3rd in the mean time then secure it and play on. Same happens with 4th. He takes it, you push a little and try securing your own 4th in the mean time. Make ghosts against infestor play and against broodlords be sure to make vikings. You can play long macro game, its just really hard i think. Also try dropping while pushing, its very effective.
I don't know what to do if they secure their own 3rd and take uber fast 4th at like 12 min mark. Should I push asap and try to deny 4th gas (cuz if they secure it they can mass muta or fast hive tech and that would be scarry).
EDIT: and sorry for my english guys, i hope you understand 
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On November 03 2011 18:52 Crankenstein wrote:How does one deal with HuK's 20 food 1 gate fast expand? I Have a practice partner who has started doing this recently and it seems like a really amazing build for Protoss. For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223726I like to open reactor first 2 rax, taking my natural somewhere around 50 food depending what happens because I feel this is the "safest" build. Against a HuK expand should I try and punish by pulling scvs for some bunkers with my marauder+marines push or should I give up on the aggression entirely and focus on establishing my own natural and preparing to defend the oncoming 5gate pressure? I'm not going to bother including replays because I'm not talking about identifying mistakes in my play or punishing mistakes in my opponents play, The focus of this question isn't us, it's HuK's damn build 
It depends on what you opened with.
If you opened with a fast expansion (1 rax FE, 14 CC, etc): Just play a straight-up macro game.
If you opened a slower safe expansion (2 rax with tech or reactor first, or a quick factory): Pull scvs, make bunkers, and force a cancel. He'll have like a couple gateway units, tops. Don't forget to expand yourself, and be prepared for a warpgate all-in, since HuK FE Chrono-boosts warpgate quite a bit-- he might just cancel the nexus, slap down 3 gates and 4gate you with 100 fewer minerals.
On November 04 2011 02:13 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 22:30 Yosho wrote:On November 03 2011 22:16 Kukaracha wrote:On November 03 2011 21:40 Ktk wrote:
@2posts above:
1rax expand
2rax expand (TL-expand)
Is it just me or has it felt that the reactor hellion expand isn't really viable anymore given the now-increased risk of aggressive zerg play? In IPL we saw MMA lose to Lucky consistently with a simple roach ling bust, when he went for a reactor hellion expand. Roaches hard counter hellions and marines which are really all you have at the 7-8min mark doing react hellion expand. Or is there a way not to lose other than hoping that the zerg drones up instead of straight up A-moving into your base? It all comes down to scouting, seeing if the Z stopped mining Gas after the first 100. If he doesn't, you should be in alarm mode. 2 hellions then tank production + Bunker one square away from the wall will do the work, but you need to see it coming. Harassing the Roaches to delay them is a good idea, even though going for the drones is tempting. However, I didn't see the game, what map was it on? And a believe that you can have a lot of stuff at the 8 minute mark, using this build for example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=248158IMO reactor expand is still solid but you have to be very careful, since the metagame is so macro oriented you sometimes forget that the Z can just make a bunch of Roaches and A-click to victory : ) I even lost to a Bane bust not long ago, because I was sooo focused on getting a superior macro. When I reactor expand I scan the zerg's base at 5 minutes, (start saving at 4) you will see the roach warren if they all in effectively. Throw down a bunker and get a siege tank holds it no problem. I feel like this is way overkill. Bunker + Tank + scan? Bunker and Tank si fine but the scan is not necessary, especially since roach all-ins are rare.
Regardless of what you do, you need to scout the zerg. If you can do this with your hellions and get a bunker up in time, or with an scv for a scan or whatever, that's fine. Blindly making a bunker would also work but is lame against zergs who aren't doing this. The main things to watch for are how much gas he mines off of his initial geyser, and if he has roaches. If your scouting scv sees him mining more than 100 gas out of the first geyser (he's still got 2-3 drones on it after that), make a bunker-- he's teching fast, either to roaches or banelings, and you need the bunker. If you get hellions to his front by the time his roaches are leaving, you'll also have enough time to make a bunker. Repair with a lot of scvs.
On November 03 2011 22:10 Fear219 wrote:
When and how should i go about getting the add-ons i want without putting big dent in my army?
In TvP i use my fact to make add-ons then just shuffle my buildings as i dont make factory units in TvP often. but in TvT and TvZ where im using all my buildings i honestly have no idea when to get what add-ons.
In TvZ especially i usually end up just putting 3-4 reactors onto my buildsings at the same time and then for the next 50 seconds im making no units out of them buildings and my resources are sky rocketing.
In TvZ, gradually ramp up your production as your scv count increases. I usually don't get a reactor on my starport until I get a third base due to the gas constraints of double infantry upgrades and tank production, but as a usual rule, once I've got a basic infractructure of a few rax, a factory, and a starport, I build addons onto a building as soon as possible, usually right when it finishes.
Never have more than half of your rax building addons unless you're doing something very specific, because cutting units cuts units, and is dangerous.
In TvP and TvT I don't make reactors for barracks because I try to conserve my gas for tanks, ghosts, etc. and I usually find myself pretty strapped-- I'd rather spend 150/0 than 50/50.
On November 04 2011 05:15 Fealthas wrote:
DO you need to keep constant pressure in the tvz matchup?
If I dont it seems liek they always tech to infesotr /bl and i cant win anymore.
You don't need constant attacks, but usually in every matchup you need to be exerting pressure in some way, whether it's a direct attack, economic harassment, or merely the threat of making a deathball or an unstoppable economy if left alone. In TvZ specifically, you can use drops to harass, or on certain maps split the map using statics and tanks and build up a large force that includes many ghosts to fight zerg hive tech and infestors (see IMMvp vs NesTea at Blizzcon, the last game they played).
On November 04 2011 05:29 ahuang wrote:
Is there any easy way to make sure hellions only target drones and not the queen/hatch/pool?
Or is it just about positioning the hellions properly so the drones are the only thing they can attack?
This seems like a really dumb question but I can never seem to get full drone-roasting potential from my hellions if I decide to suicide them.
(This is going from a Reactored Hellion Expand)
Hellions will automatically shoot at whatever's attacking them as opposed to attacking drones. If there are no threats nearby, they will attack drones. Usually, this means they end up shooting at queens or something. By using either Hold Position to prevent them from running over to the queen, or giving them a queue of commands to attack several drones, you can look away from them assured that they will attack workers. I usually just shift-click a bunch of drones if I get into the mineral line and need to look away briefly.
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Need a quick answer. As terran can an early inbase expo stop a 4gate?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On November 04 2011 08:37 SGSonnet wrote:
Need a quick answer. As terran can an early inbase expo stop a 4gate?
Yes. You will need 2 bunkers.
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What about variants of a 4gate like if they made a few sentrys who can FF bunkers to stop repair? surely that gets crushed?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On November 04 2011 08:41 SGSonnet wrote:
What about variants of a 4gate like if they made a few sentrys who can FF bunkers to stop repair? surely that gets crushed?
3 bunkers
EDIT
Or put a little room between bunkers, so it takes more FFs to cover them. Here's how I do it:
VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294919545
Embedded Video (Youtube):
+ Show Spoiler +
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if they made a few sentries, then their push will be later or weaker, I find building supply depots in front of the bunkers helps a lot with that, esp. to block zealots.
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On November 04 2011 05:41 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 05:29 ahuang wrote:
Is there any easy way to make sure hellions only target drones and not the queen/hatch/pool?
Or is it just about positioning the hellions properly so the drones are the only thing they can attack?
This seems like a really dumb question but I can never seem to get full drone-roasting potential from my hellions if I decide to suicide them.
(This is going from a Reactored Hellion Expand) If you drop them, it's wise to drop them into the mineral line. They auto fire the closest enemy if i'm not mistaken.
They will attack units that are attacking/moving to attack them, so if they are being hit by the queen they will shoot at the queen instead.
Its best to manually target drones with your hellions, you want to find good targets so you hit as many drones as possible.
Its also worth noting you don't want to suicide you hellions if possible. i.e. if your opening reactor hellion expand, you want to keep your hellions alive and repair them so they can accompany your next push. The point of the hellions is more to force lings/spines instead of roasting the maximum number of drones.
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On November 04 2011 08:41 SGSonnet wrote:
What about variants of a 4gate like if they made a few sentrys who can FF bunkers to stop repair? surely that gets crushed?
One rax FE. 3 rax, 2 naked 1 tech lab. Get shells then shields. 1 mara and 2 marine cycles. Get bunkers. Spread out bunkers so there's more surface area. Scout the 4 gate. SCV out infront of your choke in advance. SCV dies? Pull scvs and surround FRONT of bunkers with 75% of SCVs.
??
Win.
On November 04 2011 05:29 ahuang wrote:
Is there any easy way to make sure hellions only target drones and not the queen/hatch/pool?
Or is it just about positioning the hellions properly so the drones are the only thing they can attack?
This seems like a really dumb question but I can never seem to get full drone-roasting potential from my hellions if I decide to suicide them.
(This is going from a Reactored Hellion Expand)
Use some APM and target drones, run, target, run. Just try to get side shots of groups of drones.
In TvP and TvT I don't make reactors for barracks because I try to conserve my gas for tanks, ghosts, etc. and I usually find myself pretty strapped-- I'd rather spend 150/0 than 50/50.
I 100% disagree. Reactors play a pivotal role in macroing in both TvT and TvP. I get about 5 rax in TvT off two base, 4 reactors 1 tech lab. Usually 2 fac, or 1 fac 1 port and an early third.
In TvP reactors are also good early-mid game as they let you flood your army with marines, which hold basically any toss all in except 1 base collsai. I've never been an advocate for not getting reactors, as they pay off so fast. That 150/0 could have gone to something else, like... 2 marines more. If you time your gasses well, you can get and use 2 reactor and 3 tech lab raxes off two base, and still get up to medic then double ebays.
Dear Blazinghand, once again I need your help. It's easy for me to think that in TvT I'll just harass with drops etc etc, you'll even see me being more mobile than my opponent all the frikking time. And yet, I could not find even 1 single hole into his base. TvT's are horribly stale. I can't wait until I get the Warhounds to punish sissy's with. TvT equals T-T
TvT is only stale if you let it be, map dependent of course.. TvT on XNC is always going to be a cloakshee rush, or a slow slow slow mech play kind of game as it is a great mech map. As a almost pure bio player until 10+ minutes when I get a third around then and get into 2-3 fac tanks, there is ALWAYS an opening. If tanks are spread everywhere, that means there isn't enough at the front and stim box spread and focus fire work wonders.
TvT is my favorite match up, and I'm sooooo uber aggressive with mass infantry. I almost always go 14 rax 14 rax or
13 rax
15 CC
15 OC
16 Marine
17 marine
18 SCV
19 rax
19 rax
19 rax
19 rax (small supply block here with depot cut)
19 OC
Or you can cut in a depot at 16, and get rax 4 and 5 at 20 and not cut scvs.
Ya cut some SCVs, but if you know they aren't cloakshee rushing, your marine flood is a great way to put pressure on a lot of builds. You can then get 2 gas, or 4 and go double ebay + tech fast to medics. 2 tech lab raxes for stim+shield, and you can do a nice +1/+1 stim shield 2 medic rush
Awful game, but heres an example. BO taken from this. This will surely spice up your TvT. Or at least make it less stale =P
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-240309.jpg)
He was top 8 masters before reset doing a 1-1-1 cloakshee rush.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On November 04 2011 09:00 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +In TvP and TvT I don't make reactors for barracks because I try to conserve my gas for tanks, ghosts, etc. and I usually find myself pretty strapped-- I'd rather spend 150/0 than 50/50.
I 100% disagree. Reactors play a pivotal role in macroing in both TvT and TvP. I get about 5 rax in TvT off two base, 4 reactors 1 tech lab. Usually 2 fac, or 1 fac 1 port and an early third. In TvP reactors are also good early-mid game as they let you flood your army with marines, which hold basically any toss all in except 1 base collsai. I've never been an advocate for not getting reactors, as they pay off so fast. That 150/0 could have gone to something else, like... 2 marines more. If you time your gasses well, you can get and use 2 reactor and 3 tech lab raxes off two base, and still get up to medic then double ebays.
That's an entirely valid response to that one particular sentence from my reply. However, allow me to provide some context which perhaps was missed in your first review of my post:
On November 04 2011 07:03 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 22:10 Fear219 wrote:
When and how should i go about getting the add-ons i want without putting big dent in my army?
In TvP i use my fact to make add-ons then just shuffle my buildings as i dont make factory units in TvP often. but in TvT and TvZ where im using all my buildings i honestly have no idea when to get what add-ons.
In TvZ especially i usually end up just putting 3-4 reactors onto my buildsings at the same time and then for the next 50 seconds im making no units out of them buildings and my resources are sky rocketing. In TvZ, gradually ramp up your production as your scv count increases. I usually don't get a reactor on my starport until I get a third base due to the gas constraints of double infantry upgrades and tank production, but as a usual rule, once I've got a basic infractructure of a few rax, a factory, and a starport, I build addons onto a building as soon as possible, usually right when it finishes. Never have more than half of your rax building addons unless you're doing something very specific, because cutting units cuts units, and is dangerous. In TvP and TvT I don't make reactors for barracks because I try to conserve my gas for tanks, ghosts, etc. and I usually find myself pretty strapped-- I'd rather spend 150/0 than 50/50.
You have something very specific going on, which is timing your gasses. Therefore, we are not in disagreement. Furthermore, this fellow seems to be making 4 reactors at the same time, cutting a huge amount of infantry and causing him to bank a lot of money. I offered a solution that involved not building several reactors at once-- it is but one of many ways to deal with the intricacies of Terran addon management-- I also note that making addons right away on your production facilities is acceptable.
So although you did an excellent job of addressing that particular sentence, I'm not sure you accurately addressed the entirety of my post or the question at hand, which was addon management and timing. You are an excellent player and generally helpful poster so I'm sure you'll fix this shortly.
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No need to fix anything. The statement of not using reactors in TvT or TvP was all I needed to address. People are taking your word for gospel, all I was implying is there's another side to the 'no reactor instead a rax' idea.
Even getting 3-4 reactors at the same time is no issue, depending on how you do it. Infact, I do it very commonly, especially in TvZ. You just have to do things based on scouting clues and information, and know that you can defend yourself as you tach on addons. If he has a flux of money, it could be used in conjunction with ebay timing, or a macro CC/3rd CC/2nd if he didn't expo. So although adding them all on at the same time CAN be an issue, if you have good information as to the enemies army/econ you can do so safely.
Try not to get so shitty when someone picks a statement and disagrees with it. You act as if you had some giant ball of information I missed. Nothing you said prior to that is relevant to what I picked out and talked about. There are other ways of playing, and I know a few players, VERY GOOD players, that do as you do and don't tack on addons often onto raxes. Doctor is one of them. That's his style, and obviously it works for him quite well. It's not like I'm knocking what you said... just saying I disagree and reactors play a big role in both TvT and TvP.
Just a random thought though... 4 reactors is what... 8 marines timing missed? Which isssssss? 400 minerals! Also 4 reactors finishing and making 2 marines each is a depot, and 400 minerals. So it's almost a wash of the mineral surplus if you keep up with depots (almost take the time to get ahead in depots, and prepare for a stream of units to be made)
Nice generally helpful -- haha. Nice. Nice.
So you may say I didn't address the question at hand, in my own offbeat round about way, I did in my mind. I wasn't talking about any specific gas timings to couple with addons on barracks. I don't have some set time, it's just general macro knowledge that I'm sure you know as well.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
That's entirely reasonable. I'm sorry if I came off as shitty-- I'll try to be more relaxed in the future. Things like making 4 reacts then using the extra money to expand is exactly the kind of thing this guy probably needs to know, and I'm glad you included it in your post.
I'll be more respectful in the future.
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On November 04 2011 10:49 Blazinghand wrote:
That's entirely reasonable. I'm sorry if I came off as shitty-- I'll try to be more relaxed in the future. Things like making 4 reacts then using the extra money to expand is exactly the kind of thing this guy probably needs to know, and I'm glad you included it in your post.
I'll be more respectful in the future.
And don't go lying to people saying I'm a good player -_- We don't want people getting the wrong idea. If anything, I'm a turbo noob.
<3 continue on. edit -- I often post when I'm high, so my posts are all over the place. Sowwy friends.
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Just going to say that there's a nice trick for Rhellion expands that Taeja did. If you almost kill a creep tumor and you know where it is, position one hellion next to it and use the other to attack your hellion (splash will kill the tumor) :D
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Hi guys, what is the best way to react to 2 port banshee? I played an opponent who even pumped out vikings in order to snipe my raven..
Also, are vikings necessary against BC, or is it possible for marines to work? Thanks~
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I'm fed up with playing Protoss and decided to switch to terran. I'm looking for some good builds. I like being aggressive but I would also like to play macro games. No cheezes  Plat lvl toss.
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On November 04 2011 17:45 KimJongChill wrote:
Hi guys, what is the best way to react to 2 port banshee? I played an opponent who even pumped out vikings in order to snipe my raven..
Also, are vikings necessary against BC, or is it possible for marines to work? Thanks~
Best way if you really scout 2 Port is attacking, or if your Raven is late just turret up. It's a big gas investment after all. Control watch towers, siege up and defend your tanks with turrets. Get a Thor, then get air superiority by being sneaky.
And no, 0/0 BCs still melt 0/0 Marines. Vikings are the way to go.
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Is there a play style to play Zerg that isn't Marine Tank Medivac that works? I'm not good at all at Marine Tank Medivac, I always seem to lose my marines to Banglings and then my tanks to Mutalik’s, I’m a Platinum player so I don’t have great Marine splitting or super high APM. I was trying to play a more mech style with Hellion\Tank\Thors but I always seem to win the 1st push but then die to wave after wave of roaches, or sometimes Broodlords. The only way I ever beat a Zerg is to 2 port banshee cheese them it seems like, but this is super all in, if they blind counter you it’s over.
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On November 04 2011 21:25 BONE wrote:
Is there a play style to play Zerg that isn't Marine Tank Medivac that works? I'm not good at all at Marine Tank Medivac, I always seem to lose my marines to Banglings and then my tanks to Mutalik’s, I’m a Platinum player so I don’t have great Marine splitting or super high APM. I was trying to play a more mech style with Hellion\Tank\Thors but I always seem to win the 1st push but then die to wave after wave of roaches, or sometimes Broodlords. The only way I ever beat a Zerg is to 2 port banshee cheese them it seems like, but this is super all in, if they blind counter you it’s over.
It's very important with mech to be constantly scouting tech path, if you see infestor or hive with a drop or a scan you need 5 rax ghost production, 4 at least. NP isn't as much of an issue but you'll need to ghosts to counter hive tech.
As far as roach spam goes, make sure you stay up with double upgrades, no down time on those armories, and the more roaches he has, the more tanks you can add to your army, if you're worried about losing them to unsiege, build a few sensor towers on the map. Banshees are also a good way to force infestor/muta which eats at roach numbers, but you have to keep up with economic damage regardless because you won't be mobile enough to constantly deny their expos.
Hope this helps, mech is really the only alternative to so-so marine control, as pure bio isn't really viable then >< and it's the other alternative.
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