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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
So, for instance, on 3 base you produce 10 marines and 3 marauders at a time out of 8 rax. I feel that they would be extremely efficient vs. a player with banelings, and could help tank vs lings. They could even help to force broodlords instead of ultras because no zerg player would want to build ultras when you already have a high marauder count. Any comments on this? | ||
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
On February 04 2013 10:04 sakulr wrote: imo hellion/banshee is the best macro opener against zerg, you can defend roach/baneling all ins if you scout and also you can deny thirds or even get some drones with the hellions, but on these days i think that 3 cc double factory is like the most common build(?) 3cc double fact without starting from reactor hellions+banshee? So just straight from 3cc into double fact? | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1126 Posts
On February 04 2013 17:45 dynwar7 wrote: Still looking for a replay of bio to sky transition in a tvt game vs mech http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67554/?set=12 ('12 GSL S3. Gumiho v Thorzain, G3. Entombed Valley) http://www.gomtv.net/2013gsls1/vod/71479/?set=15 ('13 GSL S1. Taeja vs Noblesse, G3. Daybreak) Watching a tonne of old VODs atm, will update if I find any more sky terran switches. | ||
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On February 04 2013 13:13 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: In TvZ, is it viable to incorporate marauders into your composition when facing either ling/(bling)/infestor or muta/ling/bling? So, for instance, on 3 base you produce 10 marines and 3 marauders at a time out of 8 rax. I feel that they would be extremely efficient vs. a player with banelings, and could help tank vs lings. They could even help to force broodlords instead of ultras because no zerg player would want to build ultras when you already have a high marauder count. Any comments on this? In my experience, making too many marauders eats into gas you want to be using for tanks. Having a few marauders is useful against infestors (they tank more - fungal, blings and tank splash - and can be used to run forward and snipe), but if you make too many then pure lings will start to be a problem. Against ling / bling / muta I've found that you want to avoid marauders at all costs. Marauders are useless vs lings and muta, and any competent zerg will go out of his way to avoid hitting them with blings. Lose too many marines, and your entire army is as good as dead. The marauder money is better spent on getting a higher tank count, and 1-2 thors (and of course more marines). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 01 2013 15:56 SHODAN wrote: Do any of you terrans make an early raven vs zerg? I'm especially curious if Ver and Dwf have any thoughts on this. I first saw Maru_Prime use it as part of a hellion/banshee opener. Gumiho opened with hellion/raven vs Sniper last week, but it didn't accomplish much. It's a slow, fragile unit - all it takes is one fungal or a few lucky Queen jabs. TvZ is already difficult without losing 200 gas for no reason. However, if you keep the raven alive, only using it conservatively in the early game to kill of creep and harass queens before muta/infestor are on the field, surely it can become a worthwhile investment? PDD allows you to execute drops that would otherwise be shut down by mutas, spores or corruptors. Shuts down any cute Z tactics like burrowing lings in your base to force wasted scans. Shuts down burrowed banes + burrowed everything else. Saves you countless comsat scans that would otherwise go on creep tumors. PDD & seeker missile (especially if you flank with marines from one side, raven from the other) aids in the defense against mutalisks. Aids in the fight vs brood/corruptor. Auto-turrets help you "wall off" your tanks when you push, so you can stop lings easily surrounding your tanks. I'm wondering, what would be the most optimal way to squeeze a raven into a very fast 3CC build (Taeja or Bomber style)? Also, instead of a reactor on starport, I'm thinking about a 2nd starport at about 13 minutes, much earlier than usual. At the cost of 50 gas (only 50 because you skip the reactor on port #1), you can produce 2 medivacs as normal and still replace your raven if it dies (2 starports, 1 with techlab, 1 naked). With mech I always or very often get an early Raven if I can rule out 2-bases Roach agression; this Raven is needed later to prevent Tanks from being destroyed at minimal cost by burrowed Roaches/Infestors play, and I also use it to harass a bit: when this Raven has 100 energy I queue 2 Autoturrets behind a mineral line while attacking with Hellions and one Banshee at front. Not super deadly but it feels good to have the upper hand in the “attention war” for once since you have to micro only in one place while Zerg has to manage two. With Marines/Tanks I'm not as much convinced; the bio infrastructure (add-ons and upgrades) is as gas-intensive as the mech one, but I feel reaching 2/2 as soon as possible is more important with Marines/Tanks since 2/2 Zerglings slaughter 1/1 Marines while mech upgrades are less critical against Roaches (Tank count/position can compensate). Making a Raven delays bio upgrades and does not add as much: while IT engagements (Zerg throwing some eggs to absorb Tank damage before charging) are annoying, you can't lose all your troops because 7-8 Infestors shower your army with IT eggs; that being said, being caught unsieged because a burrowed Infestor sees all your movements is super annoying so a Raven can justify itself regarding this. Quad Autoturrets walls are very nice indeed, but once again I feel mech can better capitalize on this tactical possibility since you will likely face Roaches, and Autoturrets walls do better against short-ranged Roaches prone to overkill than against the stupidly fast (which means that most of the time you have to pre-cast the Autoturrets) and melee Speedlings. Ravens do not save as many Scans as you would think since you still have to scan ahead to see if Zerg is ready to charge as soon as you march on creep; plus Raven is 2.25 movement speed while stimmed Marines have 3.375, so using a Raven to clear creep forward is a bit impractical, not to mention the issues with protecting the Raven. I suppose you saw what happened in GuMiho vs Sniper, Neo Planet S, Code S RO32: GuMiho tries to clear creep with Marines + his Raven, Mutalisks immediately sniff fresh meat, come and snipe it. On top of the gas/infrastructure issue, the other problem with Ravens in Marines/Tanks play is that you cannot be sure to what extent they will be useful as some Zergs love Burrow tricks while others never use it; for instance in Baby/TY vs Action, Akilon Flats, SPL KT Rolster vs Team 8, Baby/TY's bio infrastructure was quite delayed by two Banshees + Ravens, though it did not matter in this game because his opponent's build order was not agressive and had late upgrades too. Still, the Raven did not add much: the two PDDs in the first main battle were undoubtedly nice, but Baby/TY was still forced to use several Scans to check Action's troops/reinforcements at his fourth, no Burrow play was used, etc. PDD does give extra tactical possibilities but they remain situational, depending on Overlord/creep spread and the map layout. An example of such a tactic can be found in SuperNova vs Killer, Daybreak, IEM Cologne VII: SuperNova launched a Banshee attack (he was playing mech) to snipe tech buildings in Killer's main, and PDD allowed his Banshees to have free reign against Spores/Queens' attacks. About build orders, I feel Hellions/Banshee(s) → third is the only one able to squeeze in a Raven without weighing too much on everything: basically since you use the 200 gas which were initially saved for Cloak, the choice comes down to Cloak vs Raven vs faster add-ons/upgrades. If you talk about Taeja's 1 rax double expand → 6 Hellions + bio infrastructure, Bomber's double expand → 2 Factories or the kind of double expand covered by Tanks / a single Banshee he played against Symbol @ IPL5 and IPL6 Qualifiers (Ohana), I'm afraid the Raven is once again too much of a liability gas-wise for the build order (again because of bio upgrades). Sorry if you meant other build orders, I did not know what exactly you referred to so I took the build orders they used in their RO32/recent matches. On February 03 2013 00:44 Marathi wrote: Ah so rally 9th SCV to depot wall as standard?, I see. Yep. On February 03 2013 01:34 mortales wrote: Thank you for responding. Honestly, according to my experience, I don't think it works. If zerg plays greedy, terran should punish him in some way, I think. I mean bunker pressure is not enough. But still, thanks. Yes, ideally… Problem being that Zerg's “greed” frequently happens to be also safe. With Hellions you can usually force Speedlings (3HBP is supposed to get gas and Metabolic Boost) since covering three mineral lines with only/delayed Queens is impractical for Zerg, but apart from that Zerg can get away with blind 3HBP against 1 rax expand scouting at the standard timing. On February 03 2013 15:58 sakulr wrote: im not uploading a rep cos my mechanics, micro and macro are decent Maybe, but what about your positioning? What about your build order? A replay would be more helpful to fix the execution mistakes that make you lose. On February 04 2013 05:36 nomyx wrote: Is it viable to do doom drops anymore? I just tried and got fungaled to death. Doomdrops are generally not doable against Zerg because of creep/Overlords and the fact both Mutalisks and Infestors can make sure you never escape; they're ok against Broodlords and possibly Ultralisks if you manage to deny vision and use the “dismantle approach,” but even then they remain risky business. On February 04 2013 09:00 Henk wrote: So guys, I've heard a lot of people lately saying that hellion banshee openings are extinct in TvZ. What openers do most terrans use nowadays? Thanks! I'm asking this out of the perspective of a zerg. I want to know what I'm up against, as I'm usually thinking 'oh he'll just go hellion banshee.. Like always', but if the game is changing I should stay up to date. It's not extinct; out of the 40 TvZ [44 total] I saw in Code S RO32 this was still the most used opening with 8 instances, before 2 rax, but Terrans also tend to do more economical openings such as double expanding right away or delaying Hellions/skipping Starport in favor of an earlier third. On February 04 2013 13:13 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: In TvZ, is it viable to incorporate marauders into your composition when facing either ling/(bling)/infestor or muta/ling/bling? So, for instance, on 3 base you produce 10 marines and 3 marauders at a time out of 8 rax. I feel that they would be extremely efficient vs. a player with banelings, and could help tank vs lings. They could even help to force broodlords instead of ultras because no zerg player would want to build ultras when you already have a high marauder count. Any comments on this? On February 04 2013 20:06 netherh wrote: In my experience, making too many marauders eats into gas you want to be using for tanks. Having a few marauders is useful against infestors (they tank more - fungal, blings and tank splash - and can be used to run forward and snipe), but if you make too many then pure lings will start to be a problem. Against ling / bling / muta I've found that you want to avoid marauders at all costs. Marauders are useless vs lings and muta, and any competent zerg will go out of his way to avoid hitting them with blings. Lose too many marines, and your entire army is as good as dead. The marauder money is better spent on getting a higher tank count, and 1-2 thors (and of course more marines). This; Marauders can indeed punish sloppy Infestor control, but committed Mutalisk play always threatens a max timing while you have at most 160-170 supply, so having suboptimal units in your mix is out of question, and anyway as pointed out Zergs are supposed to move past non-Light obstacles with their Banelings. I suppose this is harder with Infestors since they have to aim with Fungals, but with Mutalisks this should be no problem. | ||
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On February 04 2013 18:31 SHODAN wrote: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67554/?set=12 ('12 GSL S3. Gumiho v Thorzain, G3. Entombed Valley) http://www.gomtv.net/2013gsls1/vod/71479/?set=15 ('13 GSL S1. Taeja vs Noblesse, G3. Daybreak) Watching a tonne of old VODs atm, will update if I find any more sky terran switches. Lucifron did it all the time when he faced mech play. | ||
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Absurdly
Canada59 Posts
What is the proper response to a committed muta ling/bling style when I've gone marine tank? 2 base pushes seem impossible as it's hard enough to defend already. From what I've seen I think I'm supposed to push out around max while taking a 4th? Then get crushed and hope to at least trade decently and remax faster and try again? I have a lot of trouble knowing when to counter attack against aggressive play. | ||
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BanzaiMonkey
United States4 Posts
What is the best way to snipe ht's? From what i know, the options are to select the entire hotkey group and just spam snipe or you can select 1-2 alone and pull those to snipe single hts. Which one of these is the better option? Also, should i shift que snipe for 1 ht? it seems that if i go to snipe a ht twice, my ghost always loses. It's been a problem for me in most tvp's and i can't figure it out. Any help is appreciated. | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
On February 04 2013 17:45 dynwar7 wrote: Still looking for a replay of bio to sky transition in a tvt game vs mech Here's a good one of Flash doing it against Baby. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/71058 | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
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renegadeandy
United Kingdom30 Posts
I really am struggling as a Terran diamond player against all zerg opponents. My current build orders are one of the following: 1/ 15 cc into 3 rax and factory mix. 2/ reactor hellion expand Both options tend to get owned by either roach pressure or just being overrun with massive amounts of zergling. I like to end games fairly quickly - has anyone got any strong 2 base plays I can use to actually start winning some of these matchups?! | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On February 06 2013 09:18 renegadeandy wrote: Hi guys, I really am struggling as a Terran diamond player against all zerg opponents. My current build orders are one of the following: 1/ 15 cc into 3 rax and factory mix. 2/ reactor hellion expand Both options tend to get owned by either roach pressure or just being overrun with massive amounts of zergling. I like to end games fairly quickly - has anyone got any strong 2 base plays I can use to actually start winning some of these matchups?! If I'm not mistaken, with proper scouting and solid micro a hellion/banshee opening can hold all zerg's all ins. Going straight into 3rax is probably not the best idea. Depending on what you scout and want to do, you can either switch the factory and starport for double medivac and tank production, or keep making banshee/hellions if you need it to hold off all ins. | ||
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renegadeandy
United Kingdom30 Posts
So is there any specific safe openings you can outlay - which isnt just general advice - i know that reactor hellion and starport banshee is a possible opening - but what are the timings, orderings, what would you move into mech or bio typically. I know its about style and choice - but what do *you* do that works!? | ||
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
On February 06 2013 09:41 Henk wrote: If I'm not mistaken, with proper scouting and solid micro a hellion/banshee opening can hold all zerg's all ins. Going straight into 3rax is probably not the best idea. Depending on what you scout and want to do, you can either switch the factory and starport for double medivac and tank production, or keep making banshee/hellions if you need it to hold off all ins. Totally agree on this. TheDwf wrote about this in the terran mech resources thread. I do 15CC into 1/1/1 usually to be safe. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On February 06 2013 09:18 renegadeandy wrote: Hi guys, I really am struggling as a Terran diamond player against all zerg opponents. My current build orders are one of the following: 1/ 15 cc into 3 rax and factory mix. 2/ reactor hellion expand Both options tend to get owned by either roach pressure or just being overrun with massive amounts of zergling. I like to end games fairly quickly - has anyone got any strong 2 base plays I can use to actually start winning some of these matchups?! I have that sometimes too. I could say it's because of my buildorders, but it's because i do scout alot, but im not good enough yet to interpret every bit of information into a descent reaction (because of my less good knowledge of zergtimings). Like how much gas is taken, upgrades etc. It's quite hard to continuously scout and to interpret everything correctly while macroing up. Maybe this counts for u 2. But to answer your question, u could choose option 2 into mech, kollin has wrote a nice thread called Mech Resources. If your micro is a bit rusty or are marinetank-bored, mech is certainly an option. All the info u need to play mech (and how and what to scout for is in that thread). It could help u out alot. I especially like the guide "Playing Mech TvZ - No More Banelings by LemonyTang" because i like pictures  Good luck | ||
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