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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On February 01 2013 06:30 govie wrote:
Just go
cc
rax
cc
bunker
2rax
bunker
etcetc.
Push at +2/+1/stim/combat/medivac/concussive (2 eng. bays eventually) is what your aiming for, so time ur 2nd e.bay and gas accordingly. 2 bunkers i would allways do as u have refund eventually.
Thanks. (And thank you guys above for your replies as well)
Do you have a tank+marine version of that? 
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I'd prefer to do that, but quick double gas for factory then barracks, then get double engineering bay. Push out on 2-2 and take a 4th while you do so.
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Does anyone have high level replay of bio vs mech where the bio player transitions to sky?
EDIT: Or maybe someone can tell me how to smoothly transition to sky when I am bio vs mech?
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Difference between one base chargelot all in or blink stalker all in
Well, this is the first time I ask anything here and english is not my native language, so please don't be too hard on me. (I watched around the forum for an answer though)
Ok, this is my problem.
Right now I'm using Max's 1RaxFE against protoss. This is a build that allows you to put some presure in the 8 minute mark, mostly to see protoss' army composition and force some unwanted warp ins. Then you might attack by droping on enemy's base or just keep playing macro.
Here's the video of the build
Well all this didin't even matter.
After my second OC is ready, I used a scan on protoss' base and scouted a twilight council being chrono boosted. So I said. "Ok, blink stalkers are coming".
I inmediatly started my E-bay to make turrets and don't let the observer get over my base. I also built a bunker inside the main, becouse last time I dealt with a blinkstalker all in my turret wasn't ready.
Then I got a little paranoid and built turrets next to natural's ramp in case of DT. (I also had one bunker on the ramp, that is standard)
The problem is that chargelots were coming. Then, I panicked.
My first bunker was distroyed, I tried to kite, I didin't repair properly the Depots walling, Ok. I know I handled it poorly.
But my question is, How can I know if blinkstalkers or chargelots are coming? If I knew chargelots were coming, I would've built 2 or 3 bunkers on front. That would've done it.
So, I could've scouted better, but anyways. The chargelots attacked right after second warp cicle. So even if I had saw It, I wouldn't have had enough time.
So. What do?
If better scouting, then, what type of scout.
If prepare for everything. That's really not efficient.
Any tips please
Here's the replay
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United States4883 Posts
On February 01 2013 10:22 dynwar7 wrote:
Does anyone have high level replay of bio vs mech where the bio player transitions to sky?
EDIT: Or maybe someone can tell me how to smoothly transition to sky when I am bio vs mech?
Check the recent game with Ryung and Byun in the GSL Ro32 (even though the meching player won).
As for transitioning, you should be on pure bio, poking and trying to deny a 3rd base for as long as possible while safely setting up bases 3 and 4 for yourself. When your opponent gets his 3rd base: if he hasn't taken a lot of damage and you can't find weaknesses in his defense, you should add on a few tanks to defend your expansions fairly safely, try to backstab if he ever moves out; if he's taken substantial damage from trying to take his 3rd or delayed for a long time, feel free to go straight into 2-3 SP battlecruisers.
Remember to keep moving around on the map and getting vision everywhere you can. It's useful to send a marine to every expansion on his side of the map to prevent orbitals from landing (as well as scouting). Start trading drops or MMM runbys for BCs when you hit max supply.
Hope this helps some. Sorry I can't give you a direct link to anything. Also, beware, because the Ryung/Byun game is like 70 minutes long lol.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 31 2013 01:01 PiPaPoh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:35 gkshriram wrote:
This is more a general question than a Terran specific one.
Just started playing a month ago, and have been practicing a lot against V.Hard AI. The problem is this puts you in a very defensive mindset, as it always all-ins, and it is better to defend the wave, and counter attack.
But in a real game, I get way too far ahead before I attack. The last game I only pushed forward and won when I was was 160 to 80 supply wise ahead. And when I try 4v4's it seems like I am being too defensive and turtly even though, when I see the replays I had the largest army by a considerable distance.
The multi tasking trainer and practice against AI seem to have given me a bit of a mechanical edge at the lower levels, but I cant quite get the pushing forward and attacking mentality. Is there someway to practice that? Or some tips as to how to gain map control and attack?
Basically, is this something you should explicitly work on. Or do all players start a bit turtly and then when they are confident with their basic mechanics become more aggressive over time? I had the same problem. The only thing that helped for me: Force yourself to attack at a specific time. For me: 1. Poke the nat at 6 marines. If there is no nat, bunker up for 4gate, roaches etc 2. move out when the first 2 medivacs are 50% and stim is 90%(factory @ 6:30-7:00) I was lost so fast in macro up that i forgot to attack... Glad I am not the only one...
If I may add:
Force yourself to attack at times and eventually you'll start to see a pattern emerge from your random attacks. These are generally timings where you happen to have reached a certain tech or unit advantage. An example is the common 10:00 medivac timing in TvP; this is not a random attack, it happens to be the time that stim, +1, and medivacs finish up after performing perfect macro. This combination of elements gives you an overall army edge on your protoss opponent, who doesn't quite have either colossus or templar tech up yet and is susceptible to MMM pressure.
Just remember to keep your macro going strong, and just attack when something finishes up like stim, combat shield, you reach 3 tanks, you get your first 2 medivacs, etc.
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Haha thanks John
Still looking for a bio vs mech game where the bio transitions to sky terran
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Do any of you terrans make an early raven vs zerg? I'm especially curious if Ver and Dwf have any thoughts on this. I first saw Maru_Prime use it as part of a hellion/banshee opener. Gumiho opened with hellion/raven vs Sniper last week, but it didn't accomplish much. It's a slow, fragile unit - all it takes is one fungal or a few lucky Queen jabs. TvZ is already difficult without losing 200 gas for no reason. However, if you keep the raven alive, only using it conservatively in the early game to kill of creep and harass queens before muta/infestor are on the field, surely it can become a worthwhile investment?
PDD allows you to execute drops that would otherwise be shut down by mutas, spores or corruptors.
Shuts down any cute Z tactics like burrowing lings in your base to force wasted scans.
Shuts down burrowed banes + burrowed everything else.
Saves you countless comsat scans that would otherwise go on creep tumors.
PDD & seeker missile (especially if you flank with marines from one side, raven from the other) aids in the defense against mutalisks.
Aids in the fight vs brood/corruptor.
Auto-turrets help you "wall off" your tanks when you push, so you can stop lings easily surrounding your tanks.
I'm wondering, what would be the most optimal way to squeeze a raven into a very fast 3CC build (Taeja or Bomber style)? Also, instead of a reactor on starport, I'm thinking about a 2nd starport at about 13 minutes, much earlier than usual. At the cost of 50 gas (only 50 because you skip the reactor on port #1), you can produce 2 medivacs as normal and still replace your raven if it dies (2 starports, 1 with techlab, 1 naked).
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How about a 1/1/1 but with raven?
You cold do a 1rax fe into 111 (gas first not needed) on 2Cc's and make
early pressure. After this you could go for a 3rd.
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On February 01 2013 11:14 superdiego wrote:
Difference between one base chargelot all in or blink stalker all in
Well, this is the first time I ask anything here and english is not my native language, so please don't be too hard on me. (I watched around the forum for an answer though)
Ok, this is my problem.
Right now I'm using Max's 1RaxFE against protoss. This is a build that allows you to put some presure in the 8 minute mark, mostly to see protoss' army composition and force some unwanted warp ins. Then you might attack by droping on enemy's base or just keep playing macro.
Here's the video of the build
Well all this didin't even matter.
After my second OC is ready, I used a scan on protoss' base and scouted a twilight council being chrono boosted. So I said. "Ok, blink stalkers are coming".
I inmediatly started my E-bay to make turrets and don't let the observer get over my base. I also built a bunker inside the main, becouse last time I dealt with a blinkstalker all in my turret wasn't ready.
Then I got a little paranoid and built turrets next to natural's ramp in case of DT. (I also had one bunker on the ramp, that is standard)
The problem is that chargelots were coming. Then, I panicked.
My first bunker was distroyed, I tried to kite, I didin't repair properly the Depots walling, Ok. I know I handled it poorly.
But my question is, How can I know if blinkstalkers or chargelots are coming? If I knew chargelots were coming, I would've built 2 or 3 bunkers on front. That would've done it.
So, I could've scouted better, but anyways. The chargelots attacked right after second warp cicle. So even if I had saw It, I wouldn't have had enough time.
So. What do?
If better scouting, then, what type of scout.
If prepare for everything. That's really not efficient.
Any tips please
Here's the replay
I can't see the link to the replay, but it doesn't matter as I am at work anyway. But it sounds to me like you need some more map presence, having the watch towers and the odd marine or two at common used walk paths can help identify what you're facing before it comes knocking on your door.
Also I would imagine for him to do this efficiently he would have less gas or less probes mining gas so his minerals are higher/saturated quicker. Try to find a build order for both builds and see what the differences in gas is like.
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Guys does anyone know how to properly do the 4Starport Banshee build?
In IEM Katowice Diestar tried to do that versus Nerchio, But he got scouted and Nerchio answered with mass queens/spores. But hey it looked like a fun and great build.
I can imagine If you can do this build unscouted it would be quite good.
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On February 01 2013 06:45 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 06:30 govie wrote:
Just go
cc
rax
cc
bunker
2rax
bunker
etcetc.
Push at +2/+1/stim/combat/medivac/concussive (2 eng. bays eventually) is what your aiming for, so time ur 2nd e.bay and gas accordingly. 2 bunkers i would allways do as u have refund eventually. Thanks. (And thank you guys above for your replies as well) Do you have a tank+marine version of that?
If its marine/tank u want, i would basically take the same opening because all the buildings that have been built, only cost minerals! And you can still defend with marines that only cost minerals too. After that, transition to 4gas immediately, then and techlab on 1rax for combatshield/stim, add factory and starport and start siege mode. All the above will cost some gas (addons cost gas too) and therefore double e.bay or double armory will be a bit hard early on. It's all about what u want to do with your gas.
Im guessing what would be best, is just getting 3rax, 1 factory, 1 starport with addons and start producing and researching in the techlabs. Once u notice you cant spend all your gas with these buildings, build e.bay and an armory and research +1 attack in both. Then take 3rd, add more prod. buildings according to ur gaseconomy. It's all about the gasspending basically.
I know, ive had alot of games where i end with with 0 minerals and 2000 gas, then u know, u wasted alot of workers... If u see the pro's play, they time that shit (minerals to gas spendingratio or scv's on gas out u know Im no master or Gm but i do see where i make my mistakes after watching the replays. If u want to try 3cc for marine tank, just try it and watch the replay. The only basic difference between a 2base or 3cc marinetank strategy is that ur weaker in start and have delayed tech, but have a better economy after earlystage.
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Hello. I have some troubles with zerg going fast 3 hatchery before pool or before queens (at 4:00 like in ZvP). I saw some games where a zerg player holds 11/11 going 3 hatchery before pool (e.g. scarlett - GanZi) so I'm not sure I should try to punish the zerg having just 1 rax. I think I should build a bunker but just to force the zerg to order some lings. But what to do next?
Thanks.
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United States4883 Posts
On February 02 2013 06:13 mortales wrote:
Hello. I have some troubles with zerg going fast 3 hatchery before pool or before queens (at 4:00 like in ZvP). I saw some games where a zerg player holds 11/11 going 3 hatchery before pool (e.g. scarlett - GanZi) so I'm not sure I should try to punish the zerg having just 1 rax. I think I should build a bunker but just to force the zerg to order some lings. But what to do next?
Thanks.
Please link me; there should be no way in hell a zerg can defend an 11/11 with 3 hatch before pool unless the 2rax was just really super poorly executed and 60 seconds late. Maybe because Scarlett is the bomb, but this shouldn't ever happen. EDIT: I found a game where Scarlett held off an 11/11 with a 15 hatch 15 pool, might be the one you were referring to. Looked pretty standard.
As for the standard 1-rax gasless FE, the standard response is to just make a bunker at the 3rd (or natural). You want to build it in a place without an overlord and just rally your first 3 marines over to the bunker. Unless your opponent scouts the barracks and sends his initial lings straight there, it WILL finish, and will 90% of the time kill the 3rd base or at least force a TON of lings from your opponent. From there, you should be able to just play a normal game.
Another tactic is to just add on a 3rd CC immediately upon scouting the 3rd. This means doing something like skipping the 2nd and/or 3rd marine and just going straight into a 3rd CC. You can also probably do the bunker pressure off of this response, but with slightly later marines.
Hope this helps!
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SC2John,
http://rghost.ru/43484707
sorry, not GanZi, it was Scarlett - FXOGumiho. Zerg went 3 hatch - gas - pool. And probably Gumiho did some mistakes, but it didn't look very bad at least.
I know for sure there was another game of pros like this one.
I agree that some bunker pressure is worthy anyways, but I'm not sure what to do next. I think there is a possibility that the zerg won't be safe against hellions with such a greedy oppening, especially if he was forced to order 10-20 lings. So I'd like to know for certain that I really can punish the zerg playing very aggressively (and how exactly) or it's better to play greedy too. Thanks.
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For a 11/11 in TvZ/TvP, what supply do you usually send out the first SCV to build the rax? From what I've seen it's usually at 10 supply when you build the first depot.
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On February 02 2013 20:28 nomyx wrote:
For a 11/11 in TvZ/TvP, what supply do you usually send out the first SCV to build the rax? From what I've seen it's usually at 10 supply when you build the first depot.
You want to build the first depot on 9 when doing 11/11 and then send an SCV out on 10 supply and then the SCV that is making the supply depot
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How is it possible to beat DRG without cheese? I see so many people play standard. But they get a 40 supply lead against them the second they run outside their base. Do anyone have an idea what would work?
Looking forward to see Bomber play against him.
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On January 29 2013 01:41 HugzForL wrote:
Thanks a lot for the insight. I follow Demuslim quite a bit indeed but i saw Yoda doing this opening versus Nerchio@IEM and i liked it. J
ust, when do i have to pull 2 scv from each gas? when i start my first factory?
Thanks a lot again.
Yes. If you have the IPL5 replay pack, YoDa also used this kind of opening against DRG (on both games), and so did Bogus.
On January 29 2013 02:10 Heavenfallz wrote:
I've been using 1 rax FE for my TvT matchup and have been successful with it. However, doing this makes it difficult to gain an edge over my opponent and drags out the game for 40mins. I decided to change my style with the 1/1/1 banshee expo but i find it difficult to do damage if they scout properly, e.g. seeing my 13 gas and scanning the techlab at 6 mins then massing turrets. So what can i do in this situation to force economy damage? i tried to remedy my loss by doing 1/1/1 double expo but i find my defense stretched too thin and vulnerable. Is it better to all in?
Your opponent has to build Turrets, that's already part of the damage; he doesn't want to Scan to kill your Banshees, this is the other part. With the combination of the two he can't execute optimally his build order, which allows you to catch up; double expanding is a possibility, though it depends on his build order and how much you disrupted it with your Banshee harass.
On January 29 2013 05:27 Jer99 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 04:19 TheMannerMule wrote:
How hard is it to bunker rush a zerg when you're a lower league player? Practice this strategy in versus A.I. until you get pretty good at it, then it shouldn't be to hard to pull off in league games.
You can't learn 2 rax against the computer (except refining Barracks' timing if you proxy), the build itself is trivial but decision making + having constant SCV production while microing SCVs/Marines is what makes it difficult, and you can only learn this against real opponents.
On January 29 2013 07:48 Abstinence wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 06:55 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
What is a good 2 base all in vs zerg? Looking for a guide/build order There aren't any "good" ones. There are a variety of 2 base attacks still left that are suboptimal.
This.
Your best bet is probably Hellions + 3 rax Marauders (Polt vs viOLet, Cloud Kingdom, IPL5), or adding 4-5 Barracks (no third) after Hellions/Banshees and praying your opponent is dumb.
On January 30 2013 16:00 Bwall wrote:
With the stim version you don't get marauders(maybe 1 to try to trick him), and you tech to tanks and medivacs. This version is stronger overall imo, it's simply harder to defend. You also have the possibility to drop, which helps with getting a good position as he has to defend your drop.
Don't think he was talking about 2-1-1 but a 7'30 - 7'45 Stim timing with, from memory, 11-13 Marines, 4-5 Marauders and possibly some SCVs. Not that it matters anyway, no one uses this anymore.
On January 30 2013 23:56 dynwar7 wrote:
Does any high level Terrans have replays of hellion/marauder opening for TvZ that is NOT allin? Also I am not looking for something like Polt's. Though strong, it hits way too late to my liking. I want something for early pressure while expanding behind it.
There is no such thing, you would automatically be all-in due to Zerg being Zerg.
On January 31 2013 05:06 saaaa wrote:
hi guys,
what do you think about this opening from baby in the SK Proleague against a Zerg?
He scouted after his depot and block the hatch of Alone with a ebay and behind this he play CC first.
The problem with EB blocks is that you delay your own expand more than his, but your tech is also delayed (Barracks/Refineries), unlike Zerg's, so he can use this to his advantage; on maps in which the third is far it's decent, but even then it does not achieve much.
On January 31 2013 05:50 PiPaPoh wrote:
Pretty interesting but my worrys if Id play this:
Do I force a 1base allin with eneblock and cc first?
No.
On February 01 2013 05:37 KAB00000000M wrote:
If I want to get 3CC asap. Is "CC first" then directly CC after the proper way to do it?
No, you go CC rax CC. Triple CC before Barracks does not exist for obvious reasons.
On February 01 2013 11:14 superdiego wrote:
I inmediatly started my E-bay to make turrets and don't let the observer get over my base. I also built a bunker inside the main, becouse last time I dealt with a blinkstalker all in my turret wasn't ready.
Don't do this, Observers' vision exceeds Turrets' range so building Turrets is useless as it relies on Protoss being bad and not controlling his Observers; plus you need minerals for units and possibly Bunkers. Depending on the situation, getting a Sensor Tower can be a decent investment but you do this later as it's costly; for the first wave of Blink Stalkers you don't want EB/Turrets but units/Bunkers.
Charge Zealot all-ins are awful so you just need Bunkers and/or Depots in front to hold. If Blink Stalkers do not come at 7'15 - 7'30 (assuming optimal execution, if you're in a low league I suppose you can't be sure about your opponents always hitting this timing), use a SCV or a Marine to poke around your base to see his unit composition, fairly obvious to deduce what he's doing if you see mostly Zealots. Worst case scenario you retreat in your ramp behind your wall or SCVs in Hold position and he can't do much.
On February 01 2013 15:56 SHODAN wrote:
Do any of you terrans make an early raven vs zerg? I'm especially curious if Ver and Dwf have any thoughts on this. I first saw Maru_Prime use it as part of a hellion/banshee opener. Gumiho opened with hellion/raven vs Sniper last week, but it didn't accomplish much. It's a slow, fragile unit - all it takes is one fungal or a few lucky Queen jabs. TvZ is already difficult without losing 200 gas for no reason. However, if you keep the raven alive, only using it conservatively in the early game to kill of creep and harass queens before muta/infestor are on the field, surely it can become a worthwhile investment?
PDD allows you to execute drops that would otherwise be shut down by mutas, spores or corruptors.
Shuts down any cute Z tactics like burrowing lings in your base to force wasted scans.
Shuts down burrowed banes + burrowed everything else.
Saves you countless comsat scans that would otherwise go on creep tumors.
PDD & seeker missile (especially if you flank with marines from one side, raven from the other) aids in the defense against mutalisks.
Aids in the fight vs brood/corruptor.
Auto-turrets help you "wall off" your tanks when you push, so you can stop lings easily surrounding your tanks.
I'm wondering, what would be the most optimal way to squeeze a raven into a very fast 3CC build (Taeja or Bomber style)? Also, instead of a reactor on starport, I'm thinking about a 2nd starport at about 13 minutes, much earlier than usual. At the cost of 50 gas (only 50 because you skip the reactor on port #1), you can produce 2 medivacs as normal and still replace your raven if it dies (2 starports, 1 with techlab, 1 naked).
Bookmarked, will answer later.
On February 01 2013 22:04 PyroN wrote:
Guys does anyone know how to properly do the 4Starport Banshee build?
Yes: don't do this, it's bad.
On February 02 2013 06:13 mortales wrote:
Hello. I have some troubles with zerg going fast 3 hatchery before pool or before queens (at 4:00 like in ZvP). I saw some games where a zerg player holds 11/11 going 3 hatchery before pool (e.g. scarlett - GanZi) so I'm not sure I should try to punish the zerg having just 1 rax. I think I should build a bunker but just to force the zerg to order some lings. But what to do next?
Thanks.
If you don't scout it in time i. e. before 3'10 you can't do much actually since Bunker pressure is much weaker if you've already cut your second Marine, which is standard with 1 rax CC before second depot, so your choice if you scout it late (which should be the case): either you try a weakened Bunker pressure or you go fast third yourself. Another possibility is to go 1 rax CC CC CC (Taeja vs LosirA, Antiga, IPL TAC finals).
On February 02 2013 15:22 SC2John wrote:
Please link me; there should be no way in hell a zerg can defend an 11/11 with 3 hatch before pool unless the 2rax was just really super poorly executed and 60 seconds late.
Quoting myself:
On January 25 2013 02:03 TheDwf wrote:
There are two instances of pro games in which a Zerg won with triple Hatchery before Pool (3HBP) against 11/11: Happy vs rorO, Entombed Valley (?), Code S Season 5; and GuMiho vs Scarlett, Khaydaria, Ritmix RSL III. Of course a proper 11/11 auto-wins against 3HBP, but if Terran does not scout the main, mistakes Zerg's passivity for the “stall on 1 base for Speedlings/Banes” strategy (which is one of the possibilities when defending 2 rax) and hesitates to enter the main or does so too timidly, Zerg can have enough time to mass Zerglings and overcome the Bunker contain.
On February 02 2013 15:22 SC2John wrote:
As for the standard 1-rax gasless FE, the standard response is to just make a bunker at the 3rd (or natural). You want to build it in a place without an overlord and just rally your first 3 marines over to the bunker. Unless your opponent scouts the barracks and sends his initial lings straight there, it WILL finish, and will 90% of the time kill the 3rd base or at least force a TON of lings from your opponent.
Nope.
On February 02 2013 20:28 nomyx wrote:
For a 11/11 in TvZ/TvP, what supply do you usually send out the first SCV to build the rax? From what I've seen it's usually at 10 supply when you build the first depot.
10, 11 or between 10 and 11 depending on the distance.
On February 02 2013 21:02 Marathi wrote:
You want to build the first depot on 9 when doing 11/11 and then send an SCV out on 10 supply and then the SCV that is making the supply depot
Sorry, forgot to tell you this last time: it's 10 depot, not 9. Perhaps you were confused by the OP, I talk about using the 9th SCV to build depot but this mean 10 depot since you have the 10th SCV in production meanwhile.
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EPT
